Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fatmanonice]

Yeah, it's really unfortunate. As I said before, Dedede is a popular character in lower level play, and can be tricky to punish in online lag, especially on FG. With that said, how is Dedede viewed in Japan? I know he's regarded more favorably in Europe because of players like El_Bardo, but what about over there?

Like Bowser Jr, he's consistently been listed as mid tier since the game came out. It probably has to do with the fact that the Japanese style of play for this game is much more defense oriented and reactionary than in the West.

In regards to Dedede, his match up spread is pretty terrible. This patch helped improve a lot of his bad match ups but he still has a lot of ones that are absymal: . He's still a miserably easy character to counterpick against. His upsides are that he takes forever to kill, is almost impossible to gimp, has a giant grab range, and can kill shockingly early with good reads but his downsides are his close quarters options are garbage, he gets juggled to oblivion, he's slow as balls and gets camped out really easily, and his landing options are probably the third or even second worst in the game. The character definitely has strategic depth but it's all but necessary for the sheer number of flaws he has.

 

[Trifroze]

When it comes to Falcon I think people see a character with no gimmicks, and because their own character most likely has some sort of a gimmick/speciality, some think this makes them have the edge. The truth though is that Falcon doesn't care about that and he most likely outdamages you, outkills you and also has a better neutral than you, and unless you can match that chances are your matchup with Falcon is not in your favor. He's one of the most fundamentally solid characters, and unless you can exploit his terrible disadvantage and recovery, there's no reason to think you beat him.

Sheik does well against Falcon not because she can edgeguard him, but because she has the neutral to beat him and create that situation to begin with. Similar case with Pikachu. If getting edgeguarded was Falcon's only problem, Villager would be a terrible matchup for him as well, but Villager lacks the neutral to get him offstage easily enough. On the other hand, ZSS has the neutral to contest Falcon (mostly thanks to disjoints), and the advantage to abuse Falcon's ragdoll physics pretty hard while getting out of disadvantage for relatively free herself. Cloud is similar, except his neutral is probably better and disadvantage worse, but his dair makes Falcon have to hesitate a lot. Now who else has a neutral that's on Sheik/Pikachu level or a risk/reward ratio that's on ZSS/Cloud level? Diddy, Rosalina and Fox come to mind, but they all falter elsewhere, and so do all the characters beneath them.

If you really think about Falcon's damage per hit and power combined with his mobility, he's a pretty unique design and no one in this game comes close to that, or at least no one did until Cloud was released. Cloud is Falcon with a sword, just without the burst of dash grab or grab game in general. It's silly to see people say other characters do what Falcon does but better, because it's not really true.

 

[Deleted member]

Like Bowser Jr, he's consistently been listed as mid tier since the game came out. It probably has to do with the fact that the Japanese style of play for this game is much more defense oriented and reactionary than in the West.

In regards to Dedede, his match up spread is pretty terrible. This patch helped improve a lot of his bad match ups but he still has a lot of ones that are absymal: . He's still a miserably easy character to counterpick against. His upsides are that he takes forever to kill, is almost impossible to gimp, has a giant grab range, and can kill shockingly early with good reads but his downsides are his close quarters options are garbage, he gets juggled to oblivion, he's slow as balls and gets camped out really easily, and his landing options are probably the third or even second worst in the game. The character definitely has strategic depth but it's all but necessary for the sheer number of flaws he has.

Ah. Guess that's a factor as to why the balancing team is disregarding him for the most part.

Dedede definitely has one of the weakest MU spreads in the game. Before the buffs I would've said was even for him, but now? Definitely not. His MUs with , /, and all ended up being disadvantageous overtime because of what they all got from patches along with counterplay vs. Dedede in general being developed. It's probably going to stay that way unless he stops being ignored, which is unlikely at this point.

I'd also say ,, and are also pretty bad MUs for him. Especially Fox.

 

[shrooby]

Like Bowser Jr, he's consistently been listed as mid tier since the game came out. It probably has to do with the fact that the Japanese style of play for this game is much more defense oriented and reactionary than in the West.

In regards to Dedede, his match up spread is pretty terrible. This patch helped improve a lot of his bad match ups but he still has a lot of ones that are absymal: . He's still a miserably easy character to counterpick against. His upsides are that he takes forever to kill, is almost impossible to gimp, has a giant grab range, and can kill shockingly early with good reads but his downsides are his close quarters options are garbage, he gets juggled to oblivion, he's slow as balls and gets camped out really easily, and his landing options are probably the third or even second worst in the game. The character definitely has strategic depth but it's all but necessary for the sheer number of flaws he has.

DDD v. Link isn't that bad nor is DDD v. Toon Link.
Perhaps if you look at their traits in a vacuum you might come to that conclusion, understandably, but that's not really MUs work.

Though, I could imagine the MU plays out a lot differently on For Glory than in in-person tournaments at higher levels of play.

 

[Tri Knight]

In Smash committing to a move is seen as an awful choice by most players.

Granted it usually is, but it can and will pay off if used properly.





L M A O

At least try to hide your bait a little better. You're not accounting for how much more mobile Cloud is than these characters and his ability to just camp them and play defensively since his normals are way better than any of these characters. Go play theory brothers elsewhere

Cloud got a slap on the wrist on his normals and then a decent nerf on a move that was relegated to hard read status anyway.

He's still a top 10 (top 5 more than likely, ZSS got similar nerfs and still was top 3) character

Cloud does not camp Link. And I am not playing theory brothers.

Spoiler

I do not believe its an even MU or in his favor but Link also does have some of the best edgeguarding tools in the game. If Cloud's off stage (without Limit), he shouldn't come back.

Cloud also has one projectile that travels slowly, has a lot of lag, and gets eaten by bombs. Link is able to act extremely quickly out of dash throws (almost no lag at all) and follow up with something. Maybe vs an idiot, Cloud can camp a Link but no, I disagree completely.

Cloud's got speed over Link and has roughly the same reach, at least when it comes to aerials. Which if used right can overwhelm Link since he has no real way of defending himself if rushed down. However, Link can also out space Cloud in SOME situations. Cloud may have a fast jab which makes it better overall but Link uses his sword for all 3 jabs. And just because Link's attacks are rather slow does not mean he can't safely hit on Shield either. Link can space very well with his sword and clawshot. Against a character with a fairly mediocre projectile, this could actually be a bother. But again, Cloud can rush in fairly easy as well.

The fact that Cloud can overwhelm Link automatically puts it in his favor, but the fact that Link's great ability to edgeguard can net him KO's as early as right after the match starts is not something to ignore. At all.

 

[Y2Kay]

High tiers are on the come up, new threats arise as the common terrors are all made more mortal. We can't even seem to agree who is this best anymore.

I've actually have wanted to see this chaos come, and I think the meta maybe better off with it. I can't really tell you what's gonna happen next, and that's fun part. Just keep on playin' and enjoy the ride guys, this meta just got a lot more competitive and interesting!

 

[C0rvus]

But remember, it's all temporary. If a character breaks out and starts winning majors, expect the nerf train. We've still got some stops left on this ride, but we have no clue when. Cool.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

It's so odd to see Sheik attempt to FThrow -> BF and she just sails under them.

 

[Eugene Wang]

To me, King Dedede's gameplan looks like this:

1. Start game
2. ???
3. Exploit advantage state
4. Repeat steps 2-3 until the opponent is dead
5. Profit!

Can someone help show me what goes into #2 that makes Dedede mid-tier in Japan?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

High tiers are on the come up, new threats arise as the common terrors are all made more mortal. We can't even seem to agree who is this best anymore.

I've actually have wanted to see this chaos come, and I think the meta maybe better off with it. I can't really tell you what's gonna happen next, and that's fun part. Just keep on playin' and enjoy the ride guys, this meta just got a lot more competitive and interesting!

I have a feeling that being the "best" in this meta is going to mean something very different from what it used to.

Being the "best" character and being the most centralizing character may not always go hand in hand. Sheik was the best overall character, but she also coincidentally had a toolkit that turned every single matchup favorable for her. Whoever the new number 1 is, they're probably going to have at least one 60:40 matchup among the high tiers.

This is kinda huge.

 

[Deleted member]

To me, King Dedede's gameplan looks like this:

1. Start game
2. ???
3. Exploit advantage state
4. Repeat steps 2-3 until the opponent is dead
5. Profit!

Can someone help show me what goes into #2 that makes Dedede mid-tier in Japan?

His gameplan is more like "make yourself a big walking target anytime you try to do something and hope for the best".

Real talk though, like Fatmanonice said, the meta in Japan is more defensively-based, and Dedede is a a character built around defense with his long disjoints and his Gordos, even if said defenses have the durability of paper-maché. I guess his weaknesses are less prominent over there? I wouldn't know. There was a Japanese Dedede named Macha and his play with him was preeetty crazy from what I saw. Haven't heard of him much for a while though.

 

[Fatmanonice]

DDD v. Link isn't that bad nor is DDD v. Toon Link.
Perhaps if you look at their traits in a vacuum you might come to that conclusion, understandably, but that's not really MUs work.

Though, I could imagine the MU plays out a lot differently on For Glory than in in-person tournaments at higher levels of play.

Both characters have better close range options than Dedede, better rewards off grabs, can outcamp him, can easily space against him with zair, can easily juggle him, and easily get KO set ups with bombs and boomerangs because Dedede's aerial mobility is horrendous (ex: bomb into fair/uair). The only place Dedede has the advantage is offstage because being in the air against the Links is bad and in close combat situations, the Links will win if they're defensive. It's like Megaman, if the Links are mostly defensive, it shuts down a lot of his options.

Add in: these problems are even further complicated with stages with non-moving platforms.

 

[LancerStaff]

Seems like there's a lot of characters that have overall even matchups sans one or two characters now. It seems, well, relatively balanced now.

 

[Das Koopa]

Gibus beat Denti 2-1. Fresh water Greninja always winz.

 

[shrooby]

Both characters have better close range options than Dedede, better rewards off grabs, can outcamp him, can easily space against him with zair, can easily juggle him, and easily get KO set ups with bombs and boomerangs because Dedede's aerial mobility is horrendous (ex: bomb into fair/uair). The only place Dedede has the advantage is offstage because being in the air against the Links is bad and in close combat situations, the Links will win if they're defensive. It's like Megaman, if the Links are mostly defensive, it shuts down a lot of his options.

hmm...

I actually don't think Tink is that bad an MU.
I haven't played THAT much with Zan, but I didn't feel completely overwhelmed when I did play him in bracket some time ago. Since Tink hasn't been touched in patches since then, which was summer~ish last year, this set still serves as a decent judge.

Here is me versus Zan- the besss tink

http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames/v/9363294

This set is very silly and Larry and VoiD offer their goober-ish commentary, but yee~
You gotta know his tricks and not get overwhelmed. I camp the air a lot because, well, you can't throw an item at a 45 degree angle.
Mix up air stalling and just walking and shielding. The latter of which I should've used more in the set.
It's from awhile ago but I believe I banned BF and FD

Key thing DDD has is air camping and survivability.
You get wrecked at early percents pretty hard but DDD lives so long that's it's relatively not that bad. If you're able to avoid Tink's kill setups (which I will admit if you're fighting Tink for the first time they just seem so overwhelming), it leaves a lot more time and room to get that killing read DDD needs.

Zan is a much better player than me, and I was able to keep up fairly well besides game 2. So I think it's only 55:45 Tink's favor. 6:4 at worst.

Here is an explanation based off my experience.
You have to cite your knowledge of MUs.
If you have more/better experience at a higher level of play to base your thoughts off of, be my guest.

 

[HFlash]

Gibus beat Denti 2-1. Fresh water Greninja always winz.

Though the last game was sort of gimmicky. Killed Denti at 81 % with a 160% rage uair lol

 

[Fatmanonice]

Because I'm supposed to inherently know who you are or your competitive accomplishments... Isn't that a bit presumptuous? I mean, I'm going on my own experience so there's no need to be obnoxious about it. No need for "know thine place pheasant" and what have you.

Add in: Seriously, I have no clue who you are and I'm just supposed to know that you have personal experience with some of the best Toon Links in the world? I mean, what the hell, man? Good lord, the more that I think about this the more annoyed I get because you kind of went out of your way to embarrass me when a simple explanation of your viewpoint would have sufficed. I'll get over it but talk about a pot shot given it's pretty obvious that I'm not a high profile player and just a small podunk town tournament goer.

 

[sedrf]

ROB seems good against mewtwo.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Though the last game was sort of gimmicky. Killed Denti at 81 % with a 160% rage uair lol

Cloud is a walking gimmick hush.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Whats everyones thoughts on Zard now?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So I'm hearing that rage ends at 180% and not 150%. Is this true?

 

[nannerham]

After some labbing, the range nerf on sheik was just enough to actually have lucario's nair to actually start trading (his nair has a deceptively large hitbox) that fair was quite the boon in the MU, also the fact that sheik's 50/50 was lost makes fighting against lucario a lot more stressful, not killing him until 150+% is entirely possible because of lucario's solid weight class and we all know how dumb rage+aura is, needles being nerfed also means less harassment when charging aura sphere. I considered the MU being 60:40 in sheiks favor pre-patch, but now? It may very possibly be even, 55:45 at worst.

 

[HFlash]

Cloud is a walking gimmick hush.

So with Shiek getting gutted, is Cloud the new character for mid/low tier mains to vent on?

 

[Deleted member]

Whats everyones thoughts on Zard now?

He's become much better than he was before, but his poor traction will still hinder his OoS game I feel. I still feel like we need more people playing Zard and getting some results in with him before there's a solid verdict on how viable he actually is at the moment, but he's close to solid. Him getting less landing lag on his aerials and the air speed buff were slick.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Zard's buff are extremely helpful.

I'm doing combos that weren't even possible before and I'm living things I frankly shouldn't.

I think Charizard just bumped up to mid tier. Approaching isn't a hassle anymore even against characters like Link and Samus. The air speed buff was the best thing to happen to him.

 

[FallofBrawl]

So I'm hearing that rage ends at 180% and not 150%. Is this true?

I think that was proven false. @Sammi Husky theorizes that the devs probably were planning to make rage go up to 180% but didn't follow through with the plans. It's still in the files though.

To clarify, rage still ends at 150% and is a gradual increase, not an incremental one.

 

[TurboLink]

So with Shiek getting gutted, is Cloud the new character for mid/low tier mains to vent on?

A lot of people have hated Cloud for a while now. I'd be lying if I said that everytime I face a Cloud player I giggle with glee.

 

[sedrf]

sheik isn't gutted nerd.
also everybody ******* about sheik.

 

[DblCrest]

Well given past shenanigans the next one people will complain about will likely be Cloud, Bayo still, Ros- Luma, Ness' backthrow.
I'm waiting for the day people complain about Mewtwo or Ike now. Even Charizard's flare blitz XD

Oh also they keep upping Kirby's KO power on his smashes and hamma .
What's up with that? Soon he'll be some sort of mini Ganon it's quite silly.

Increasing his reward for when he eventually gets in rather than his airspeed? Not sure what to say on this honestly...seems to be making him into more of a menace for Free for alls and against inexperienced players.

Will his Fsmash ever be as redonkulous as the one in 64?

 

[HFlash]

So corrin is currently at Winner's quarters of a 130 man tourney (Shockwave 72). Seems promising for Corrin mains despite the nerf. Here's the twitch for those interested.

https://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator

Edit: Update: But just lost to Rob.

 

[shrooby]

Because I'm supposed to inherently know who you are or your competitive accomplishments... Isn't that a bit presumptuous? I mean, I'm going on my own experience so there's no need to be obnoxious about it. No need for "know thine place pheasant" and what have you.

No, I don't expect you to know my competitive history. (I'd be surprised if many people do, haha) Though I would expect that, if you're going to give insight on how MUs play out at tournament level, that you're able to cite evidence of how it plays out at tournament level.
Apologies if I was overly obnoxious. However, I don't think that's a lot to expect, do you?

 

[IsmaR]

Because I'm supposed to inherently know who you are or your competitive accomplishments... Isn't that a bit presumptuous? I mean, I'm going on my own experience so there's no need to be obnoxious about it. No need for "know thine place pheasant" and what have you.

Add in: Seriously, I have no clue who you are and I'm just supposed to know that you have personal experience with some of the best Toon Links in the world? I mean, what the hell, man? Good lord, the more that I think about this the more annoyed I get because you kind of went out of your way to embarrass me when a simple explanation of your viewpoint would have sufficed. I'll get over it but talk about a pot shot given it's pretty obvious that I'm not a high profile player and just a small podunk town tournament goer.

He's a member of the 4BR and is just calling you out for spreading misinformation based on your non-so-existent experience.

None of it was meant to be insulting (nor is this). No one's knocking you for not knowing who is who/not being a "big name" yourself, but because every post comes off as "IMO, thus definitely so" and numerous generic observations. Going off of the rules in the OP alone, would both be considered yellow topics. If you're posting in this thread, you're going to be subjugated to this regardless of your "place."

 

[Fatmanonice]

No, I don't expect you to know my competitive history. (I'd be surprised if many people do, haha) Though I would expect that, if you're going to give insight on how MUs play out at tournament level, that you're able to cite evidence of how it plays out at tournament level. Preferably if that experience is your own. (But it doesn't have to be, necessarily, but it should still be tournament level.)
Apologies if I came across as obnoxious. Not my intention. However, I don't think that's a lot to expect, do you?

With videos or something? Like I said, I play in very small tournaments with the main ones being in the basement of a church and at a local game shop. Both of these venues are lucky to pull in 20 people a tournament. We don't exactly have streams. Again, all I got is my own experience (yes, I'm aware empirical evidence trumps anecdotal evidence) and people are free to contest it if they think I'm wrong and, believe me, that happens a lot here. Yes, my experience is limited in comparison to people who live in big cities who can actually go to tournaments with triple or even quadruple digit entrants. If I wasn't playing Smash Bros, I'd probably be shucking corn or punting chickens over a fence given my locale. Point is that when I say something about a character it is based on my "competitive impressions" and I tend to only speak up when it comes to characters I either 1. play a lot as or 2. play against a lot. Coming full circle, my personal experience with Dedede vs Link/Toon Link is not super great and it comes off to me personally as a bad match up.

IsmaR : Hold up. When did I present my opinions as incontestable facts? When have I ever said that my opinions were not meant to be challenged? People disagree with me all the time and suddenly I'm suddenly who apparently thinks they're never wrong? What kind of hot garbage is that? I almost always present things as my opinion or my own experience. There seems to be a very strong implication here that I strong arm people into agreeing with me which is hardly the case.

Yes, a lot of this boils down to opinion because the experts do it too. Zero's latest video is a prime example of this. His placing of Shulk and Dedede on his personal tier list are based on theorized "potential" and that's about as vague as you can get. He admits that there isn't a lot of hard evidence for his stance and he's primarily going off "a hunch." Whatever. We all do this to some degree. We all have our own personal bias. We all have our own hang ups. We all have characters we do unusually good or bad against. We all have that one character we swear to god would be absolutely behemoth if "someone got them right." Are you honestly going to make the argument that I'm "spreading misinformation" when these things are laid out and when I'm blatantly wrong I tend to get squashed within a page of my post? It's okay to be wrong. It's okay to have opinions. That's why we have these discussions anyways to sort all this crap out.

 

[MachoCheeze]

So with Shiek getting gutted, is Cloud the new character for mid/low tier mains to vent on?

Honestly? Yeah, probably. He's got arguably the best neutral in the game, some of the best mobility specs, one of the best moves in Smash history, is incredibly pick up and play, huge, powerful, disjointed hitboxes, and a bunch of other positive things. He's obviously a top 5 character, especially after the nerfs to the other top tiers. The nice thing about him is that he sort of has a volatile weakness to abuse. But that's all fine though. It's a fighting game and fight games have got to have top tier characters.

What I had a problem with was you claiming someone getting a stupidly early kill was janky when you main Cloud.

 

[NairWizard]

He is saying that opinions that aren't particularly insightful (i.e. that don't offer solid reasoning or aren't grounded in seldom-considered perspectives) or that don't cite tournament evidence really don't have a place here.

No one is asking you to play in high-stakes tournaments. He's asking you to cite tournament evidence, which can be as simple as finding some videos and analyzing the matches.

I think there's been a general feeling in this thread lately of "too much For Glory experience, this is getting toxic" coming from some of the more experienced participants, which is reflecting in the replies sometimes.

Just offering my view/understanding of the situation. Perhaps it can feel like people are being harsh on you or targeting you in particular, but that's definitely not the case.

 

[PK Gaming]

Here's a visual representation of Corrin's movement nerfs

Spoiler

They're inconsequential

 

[HeavyLobster]

Honestly? Yeah, probably. He's got arguably the best neutral in the game, some of the best mobility specs, one of the best moves in Smash history, is incredibly pick up and play, huge, powerful, disjointed hitboxes, and a bunch of other positive things. He's obviously a top 5 character, especially after the nerfs to the other top tiers. The nice thing about him is that he sort of has a volatile weakness to abuse. But that's all fine though. It's a fighting game and fight games have got to have top tier characters.

What I had a problem with was you claiming someone getting a stupidly early kill was janky when you main Cloud.

Cloud is definitely an obnoxious character who's frustrating to fight, but nevertheless does have meaningful weaknesses that most of the cast can exploit. So he's going to be very popular and salt-inducing, but still generally beatable for much of the cast, far more so than Sheik. He also got nerfs, albeit ones that aren't too bad for him in singles. So going from Sheik to Cloud is progress, but that's never stopped whiners before.

 

[Fatmanonice]

He is saying that opinions that aren't particularly insightful (i.e. that don't offer solid reasoning or aren't grounded in seldom-considered perspectives) or that don't cite tournament evidence really don't have a place here.

No one is asking you to play in high-stakes tournaments. He's asking you to cite tournament evidence, which can be as simple as finding some videos and analyzing the matches.

I think there's been a general feeling in this thread lately of "too much For Glory experience, this is getting toxic" coming from some of the more experienced participants, which is reflecting in the replies sometimes.

Just offering my view/understanding of the situation. Perhaps it can feel like people are being harsh on you or targeting you in particular, but that's definitely not the case.

Part of the issue with showing tournament videos is that there are a lot of factors at play. People can approach the matchups in very different ways. It's like if you were to compare Johnnumbers Wii Fit with Rin's or Anti's Mario with Ally's. People have different experiences and if I were to bring up a video, these things would definitely come into play. I could say "Look at how PutzMcNuts easily wipes the floor against Cloud using Jigglypuff" and then someone could come along and show "look at HarkMcFart rips Jigglypuff a new one using Cloud." Since it's largely agreed that Jiggs doesn't do well against Cloud, Person #1 is suddenly guilty of confirmation bias despite his video supporting his argument. I mean, I get it but at the same time I still find it extremely idealistic because even if you find a match that supports your view, we're still back at square one where we debate what all the players did right and wrong. That said, a video is not irrefutable proof of one side or another and, either way, the majority is still going to win out because that's simply how popular opinion goes.

The main opinions of the community come from the top and then trickle down so are small fries not supposed to have opinions? There's also the reality that a lot of top level players really don't come in here that often (I think sans is the only one I regularly see come in here and he's chill af when it comes to explaining things) and that most of the people posting are, in fact, small fries and not experts. The message I'm getting is that "I'm out of line" but for what I don't wholly understand.

One last thing I want to say before I go to bed: if you think someone is wrong about something, fact check. If you take information at face value, it's your own damn fault. "Misinformation" is only spread if it's just accepted without question and, in the grand scheme of Smash stuff, the "real world consequences" of this are minor at best. You get whopped, you learn that Fatmanonice is a lying shmuck, and you do research to get the right info to do better next time. We have a whole forum here specifically for this kind of stuff. If I say something about Dedede, you can check the Dedede boards,"summon" a top player into this thread to weigh their opinion in, or get into a debate with me over it. That's why these are called forums, after all.

 

[Megamang]

I think as a thread and as a community we could work on video analysis. We focus too much on the winner, saying 'see, X won with low percent. 65:35' without really analyzing anything. Better things to notice

Look at X interaction. See how when DeDeDe gets hit once, he almost always takes severe damage before landing?

See how X move beats Y move in neutral?

See how this dude uses Pivot Ftilt to punish this approach? Something like this makes the often overstated problematic disadvantage state much better.


Etc Etc. Its not about proving a point, its about the little interactions we can glean information from. Who is actually able to gimp Cloud in tournament sets, and what are they doing to achieve this, is a good place to start with video stuff.

 

[deepseadiva]

I think as a thread and as a community we could work on video analysis. We focus too much on the winner, saying 'see, X won with low percent. 65:35' without really analyzing anything. Better things to notice

Look at X interaction. See how when DeDeDe gets hit once, he almost always takes severe damage before landing?

See how X move beats Y move in neutral?

See how this dude uses Pivot Ftilt to punish this approach? Something like this makes the often overstated problematic disadvantage state much better.


Etc Etc. Its not about proving a point, its about the little interactions we can glean information from. Who is actually able to gimp Cloud in tournament sets, and what are they doing to achieve this, is a good place to start with video stuff.

Yea but that's work