Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[G. Stache]

I swear, we finally get Sheik nerfs, yet I saw people complaining about the Sheik nerfs earlier today. Just...why?

In other news, while Greninja and Mewtwo are looking like the poster boy Pokemon of smash as of late, Zard is feeling very smooth. Definitely a secondary I want to stick with. His aerial prowess is extremely good, range is good, his speed is looking crispy, and he has quite a few moves that you have to respect if you want to live past 90% (Bair and Flare Blitz being my two favorites as of late), while he lives to obscenely high percents because of armor, weight/gravity and decent recovery. He definitely is feeling low mid tier to me as opposed to around bottom 10. Of course, Zard needs actual rep to back up such a claim, so take what I say with quite a bit of salt

 

[Spinosaurus]

While I'm excited for the Mewtwo changes, if he didn't surpass Pika and Greninja before (and Lucario, honestly), he still won't.

The changes he got are more QoL changes.

Actually, the biggest question here is where Zard will end up. I'm pretty excited for him. Pokemon are the Fire Emblem cast of this patch, fitting considering the series' 20th anniversary. (Poor Puff!)

 

[adom4]

While I'm excited for the Mewtwo changes, if he didn't surpass Pika and Greninja before (and Lucario, honestly), he still won't.

The changes he got are more QoL changes.

Actually, the biggest question here is where Zard will end up. I'm pretty excited for him. Pokemon are the Fire Emblem cast of this patch, fitting considering the series' 20th anniversary. (Poor Puff!)

He actually needs to be played first to know where he'll end up.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo hasn't been around a whole lot, but from what we've seen, he's really good.

That's pretty much the source of my initial doubt.

You should probably leave this thread a few days when your hype dies down a little. Mewtwo isn't even close to Pikachu or Greninja

what?

 

[NWRL]

Of course KO setups are better than landing slower attacks that require something of a read or a prediction of the opponent's actions.

That's the point.

That's why KO setups often get nerfed on characters with lots of strengths in other areas, while those who don't get hoo hahs.

It's all about risk-reward ratios. How much do you have to put yourself on the line to get that stock, and get that win? How much can your character reliably do otherwise?

It's like players are afraid that, oh no, their character might have to put their neck out there to get a KO. I know players will tend towards whatever is safest and most reliable, but that doesn't mean the safest and most reliable things also have to be the strongest tools available.

In Smash committing to a move is seen as an awful choice by most players.

Granted it usually is, but it can and will pay off if used properly.

I'll make it short and with only four of my examples.

is my most prominent (and secondmost dangerous) example. He has attacks that not only send Cloud off stage, but has so many more options to counter Cloud's own options, especially when it comes to getup and recovery. Link is susceptible to Cloud's combo ability and fast attacks, but can counter some of Cloud's attacks with his own fast attacks, if he dares block. A free Spin Attack awaits a blocked Cloud attack normally. Oh, and D-Smash dealing more KB on the semi-spike second hit makes him even more dangerous.

While not Low Tier, he will give Cloud a near-impossible challenge, since he can pretty much force Cloud to approach, and almost guarantees hits against Cloud that would otherwise not hit better characters. Gyro is also a pretty annoying projectile to deal with and Robo Beam makes Cloud kind of want to cry. And let's not forget that ROB has the throw combo ability and great edge-guarding, so good that Cloud's guaranteed dead recovering anywhere. F-Smash or D-Air, pick your death.

just became a bad MU for Cloud. Now that her N-Air deals 10% damage and more KB as a result, as well as her better combo ability against Cloud this patch, one N-Air at just the right damage will set her up to kill Cloud. Let's also consider her better frame data on various attacks, better combo ability (and damage racking), and her big ability to gimp Cloud (knowing what Izaw showed us, Cloud's doomed by Charge Shot).

He does have an even at worst, but 55:45 at best against Cloud. The buffs, like Samus, made him far better against Cloud than ever before. Just one F-Tilt will absolutely destroy Cloud at the right damage and read (which means Cloud will have to make the worst judgement), and yet even then, Ganondorf can still combo Cloud thanks to the buffs this patch, and deals a lot of damage no less. Considering Cloud is one of the few sword characters WITHOUT a counter, Ganondorf really has nothing more to fear from Cloud than he has to fear from Link or Swordfighter...except he doesn't have to fear Cloud at all. Cloud has only one projectile, decent range and good frame data (most of the time), but Ganondorf can just truck in and ruin Cloud's plans. One hit will lead into a combo worth 60% damage now.

I am not 100% certain on Ganondorf yet. I'm going to lab him against others when I get home so I can get a better feel for him.

L M A O

At least try to hide your bait a little better. You're not accounting for how much more mobile Cloud is than these characters and his ability to just camp them and play defensively since his normals are way better than any of these characters. Go play theory brothers elsewhere

Cloud got a slap on the wrist on his normals and then a decent nerf on a move that was relegated to hard read status anyway.

He's still a top 10 (top 5 more than likely, ZSS got similar nerfs and still was top 3) character

 

[FullMoon]

I still think Pikachu is the best mon, but Greninja and Mewtwo are getting closer, Lucario isn't that far behind either.

Greninja's buffs are looking very promising, F-Air's buff open ups a lot more combos for him, it's actually pretty crazy, it can even combo into footstool. We are hitting the lab hard to see what we can do now.

Depending on how Greninja's MU with Sheik goes now, he might have a really good MU spread now.

 

[BananaBake]

Mewtwo hasn't been around a whole lot, but from what we've seen, he's really good.

That's pretty much the source of my initial doubt.

what?

Did you read about his buffs in 1.1.5? weight and speed, plus some other good stuff

 

[Y2Kay]

Did you read about his buffs in 1.1.5? weight and speed, plus some other good stuff

Oh yeah I've been reading all about it. They also increased the hitbox sizes on his Nair, one of my main nitpicks of that move, and lowered cool down on up smash, making one of the strongest up smashes in the game LESS punishable.

This patch wasn't as big as the last one, but they are definitely significant.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Mewtwo hasn't been around a whole lot, but from what we've seen, he's really good.

That's pretty much the source of my initial doubt.

what?

You're clearly way too overhyped if you think Mewtwo is close to Greninja and Pikachu's viability. It would be best not to try to post these misconceptions, it will confuse people and annoy people.

 

[Yikarur]

Mewtwo was already a good character in 1.1.4. Now get got even better. I really think he is a contender for higher tier placements.
Best to second best fair in the game, a command grab, crazy edgeguarding, a really srong positional independed kill throw, a brutal projectile.. this character will get a lot results in the future.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I'm looking forward to 20XX where people are still crying about Sheik, because those nerfs barely matter

I'm not doubting your judgement since your opinions are usually correct, but do you mind explaining why these nerfs only barely matter since they seem really significant, particularly the nerfs to her throws. I've had many characters escape her F-Throw and D-Throw combos due to the new angle / increase KBG in my play testing with her.

 

[Jaguar360]

You're clearly way too overhyped if you think Mewtwo is close to Greninja and Pikachu's viability. It would be best not to try to post these misconceptions, it will confuse people and annoy people.

Mewtwo's been close to Greninja and Lucario ever since his buffs (even though I agree that he wasn't better and likely still isn't better). He's far from out of reach from surpassing those two though; they're all about in the same place right now imo, with Mewtwo slightly worse.

I agree that Pika's still the best Pokemon, as a Pika optimist myself, but he's honestly not that far ahead of these guys .

 

[L9999]

I know people get hyped, but, IMO the trash tier will remain the same.
No players, no proof. He has been carried by theory enough.
I see where ZeRo is coming from, but no, DDD is trash. Maybe his MUs got better, but they are still bad.
Let's be real, his MU spread is still garbage.
No changes, was trash already. All he can aspire from FreeMii is low tier, because in customs he is just an alternate version of , who is not that good to begin with.
Her grabs are better, and she has a Hoo-hah, but she is still super sluggish on everything.
Just copy paste everything I said about Swordfighter. Yes, all he can aspire is low tier, Mii Brawler is linear and flawed.
Let's forget this character even exists. The hacks behind the patches don't acknowledge her, so why should we?

 

[Y2Kay]

You're clearly way too overhyped if you think Mewtwo is close to Greninja and Pikachu's viability. It would be best not to try to post these misconceptions, it will confuse people and annoy people.

Alright, since you seem to be the expert, explain to me how Mewtwo is "not even close" to greninja's or pikachu's viability

 

[Trifroze]

Since there hasn't been a single mention since the patch came out, here's a humble little post dedicated to another winner in this patch.

 

[Yikarur]

I think the fair nerf is really insignificant. You barely notice it.
I think the throws are a huge deal but they still good at higher % for positioning because the angle is awkward and Sheik is fast.
At low% she basically functions the same, you will probably still start every stock at 60% because she still combos you from one side to the other. Her non-throw kill set-ups are all still intact (nair/fair -> BF, needle -> BF, Ftilt 50:50) and throw to bouncing fish is still scary, because bouncing fish is still a flexible and fast move with a great efficient range.

The only thing that really changes is how much she ****s you up with needle camping (it still works, but it's not completely broken anymore) and you cannot spam grab anymore at 50:50% to get your kill easily.

I think the really good sheik mains are almost unaffected, because players like Mr.R and Void had their own kill set-ups and frame traps with Sheik and didn't rely entirely on the 50:50 out of dthrow.

This is just hypothetically, but I know from experiece with the Smash Patches and other games that the best character might still be the best character after nerfs, because if they have been the best character, then this is because their toolkit was that flexibele to make them consistent in first place.
I was always telling people that Diddy is still Top5, because his tools are still ridiculously good, but it took them almost a year to understand.

Nerfs are overrated most of the time. The Corrin nerf won't matter. The ZSS nerf doesn't seem really crucial. Cloud is basically still the same character and I think the finishing touch nerf, won't stop his doubles crazyness as well. Sheik nerfs look strong on first glance but her main game plan is still the same and barely touched.

Sheiks nerf will make her a harder character to play so I see her dropping in numbers, because you can't just pocket her and dthrow upair to victory. I expect Void and Mr.R to perform the same as before. I expect Light (from germany) to place the same as before (Top3 at almost any german tournament and Top5 at Beast)

Some -1 MUs might be even now (Yoshi for example) but I think she still has no negative MUs.

 

[Smog Frog]

don't forget ya boy

 

[Wintermelon43]

Mewtwo's been close to Greninja and Lucario ever since his buffs (even though I agree that he wasn't better and likely still isn't better). He's far from out of reach from surpassing those two though; they're all about in the same place right now imo, with Mewtwo slightly worse.

I agree that Pika's still the best Pokemon, as a Pika optimist myself, but he's honestly not that far ahead of these guys .

Oh yeah, I agree Mewtwo's better than Lucario, espicially considered Lucario is one of the most overrated in this game easily.

Alright, since you seem to be the expert, explain to me how Mewtwo is "not even close" to greninja's or pikachu's viability

retty good matchup spread, fairly good theory, good results from Esam, great edgeguarding and recovery, top 3 for both. Is better than Mewtwo in about every way.

:Good results with Istudying and Some, Theory close to Pikachu's and Ness's, matchup spread similar to the bottom of top tier (Now that Sheik is nerfed), great edgeguarding.

retty good theory but not as good as Greninja's or Pikachus, Not many results, much worse matchup spread than Pikachu and Greninja, really light AND big, which makes him really easy to kill, no confirmed combos, bad tilts. Has no great traits that Pikachu and Greninja have.

 

[BananaBake]

Oh yeah, I agree Mewtwo's better than Lucario, espicially considered Lucario is one of the most overrated in this game easily.



retty good matchup spread, fairly good theory, good results from Esam, great edgeguarding and recovery, top 3 for both. Is better than Mewtwo in about every way.

:Good results with Istudying and Some, Theory close to Pikachu's and Ness's, matchup spread similar to the bottom of top tier (Now that Sheik is nerfed), great edgeguarding.

retty good theory but not as good as Greninja's or Pikachus, Not many results, much worse matchup spread than Pikachu and Greninja, really light AND big, which makes him really easy to kill, no confirmed combos, bad tilts. Has no great traits that Pikachu and Greninja have.

Mewtwo doesn't have many good results YET, but with 1.1.4 he was rising at a fair rate, and this patch seems like he'll take off

 

[Wintermelon43]

Mewtwo doesn't have many good results YET, but with 1.1.4 he was rising at a fair rate, and this patch seems like he'll take off

This patch didn't help him much, weight differance was slight so he dies like 2% later. He just has a slightly faster dash speed and a buff to neutral air. Made him high tier from high mid but it wasn't that big.

 

[TurboLink]

I think the fair nerf is really insignificant. You barely notice it.
I think the throws are a huge deal but they still good at higher % for positioning because the angle is awkward and Sheik is fast.
At low% she basically functions the same, you will probably still start every stock at 60% because she still combos you from one side to the other. Her non-throw kill set-ups are all still intact (nair/fair -> BF, needle -> BF, Ftilt 50:50) and throw to bouncing fish is still scary, because bouncing fish is still a flexible and fast move with a great efficient range.

The only thing that really changes is how much she ****s you up with needle camping (it still works, but it's not completely broken anymore) and you cannot spam grab anymore at 50:50% to get your kill easily.

I think the really good sheik mains are almost unaffected, because players like Mr.R and Void had their own kill set-ups and frame traps with Sheik and didn't rely entirely on the 50:50 out of dthrow.

This is just hypothetically, but I know from experiece with the Smash Patches and other games that the best character might still be the best character after nerfs, because if they have been the best character, then this is because their toolkit was that flexibele to make them consistent in first place.
I was always telling people that Diddy is still Top5, because his tools are still ridiculously good, but it took them almost a year to understand.

Nerfs are overrated most of the time. The Corrin nerf won't matter. The ZSS nerf doesn't seem really crucial. Cloud is basically still the same character and I think the finishing touch nerf, won't stop his doubles crazyness as well. Sheik nerfs look strong on first glance but her main game plan is still the same and barely touched.

Sheiks nerf will make her a harder character to play so I see her dropping in numbers, because you can't just pocket her and dthrow upair to victory. I expect Void and Mr.R to perform the same as before. I expect Light (from germany) to place the same as before (Top3 at almost any german tournament and Top5 at Beast)

Some -1 MUs might be even now (Yoshi for example) but I think she still has no negative MUs.

As a Sheik main the fair nerf is very noticeable. She doesn't extend her hand out as far as before. Some characters like Marth can actually give her a hard time in the air. What characters are you playing for Sheik to be getting 60% right at the start of the match? Are you DIing properly?

The Needle Storm nerf also inadvertently made Needle Storm less safe in the neutral.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Speaking of mons, I think pikachu's going to go up with this patch. Characters with ridiculous offstage games like pikachu are going to be so useful in a meta dominated by cloud, bayonetta, and likely diddy.

Here's to hoping ESAM masters that uthrow kill confirm before the next major.

 

[BananaBake]

This patch didn't help him much, weight differance was slight so he dies like 2% later. He just has a slightly faster dash speed and a buff to neutral air. Made him high tier from high mid but it wasn't that big.

Hey dude, buffs are buffs, no matter the size

 

[ARISTOS]

Oh yeah, I agree Mewtwo's better than Lucario, espicially considered Lucario is one of the most overrated in this game easily.



retty good matchup spread, fairly good theory, good results from Esam, great edgeguarding and recovery, top 3 for both. Is better than Mewtwo in about every way.

:Good results with Istudying and Some, Theory close to Pikachu's and Ness's, matchup spread similar to the bottom of top tier (Now that Sheik is nerfed), great edgeguarding.

retty good theory but not as good as Greninja's or Pikachus, Not many results, much worse matchup spread than Pikachu and Greninja, really light AND big, which makes him really easy to kill, no confirmed combos, bad tilts. Has no great traits that Pikachu and Greninja have.

What

Just thinking in my head rn Pikachu would absolutely kill for Mewtwo's larger hitboxes and being able to actually kill most characters below 100%, as well as Mewtwo's higher dash and air speeds.

Mewtwo's fair literally combos into itself. Dtilt is godlike

Anyone who has played this character for 2 mins knows this, what are you on

 

[Shady Shaymin]

What

Just thinking in my head rn Pikachu would absolutely kill for Mewtwo's larger hitboxes and being able to actually kill most characters below 100%, as well as Mewtwo's higher dash and air speeds.

Mewtwo's fair literally combos into itself. Dtilt is godlike

Anyone who has played this character for 2 mins knows this, what are you on

If pikachu had m2 range, he'd be effing ridiculous. His command of the stage and damage racking are already above average, if he could pop you up at 50 out of quick attack and throw out a move like m2 fair...yeah, no thank you. Pikachu's design trades range for mobility. The only character to be disgustingly good at both of those was pre patch sheik, and arguably cloud to a lesser extent.

Also, pikachu's fair combos into itself. It's not as easy to actually land fair, but comboing is pika's strength.

 

[C0rvus]

Maybe it's because I get to witness Blue shredding dudes with Mewtwo and my buddy is a Mewtwo nut, but I have never once slept on this character. I think he's always been solid. He's good now fer sure. Like, wow, a functional glass canon in Smash? What next, a well designed heavy in high tier? (Snake doesn't count, that character was whack as hell).

 

[Trifroze]

ZSS might start to have an advantage in the Sheik matchup now. Sheik's 50:50s aren't true anymore especially with flip jump being able to escape them several frames earlier than jumping, and with Sheik's reduced weight and her high gravity value, ZSS' bnb combo bops Sheik off the top quite often even if ZSS has no rage at all (it already used to do that a fair bit).

On the other hand, ZSS' only downsides are not getting as much reward off of combos anymore, having a harder time getting grabs off of dodges and rolls, and losing guaranteed dthrow to uair kill setup at high percents. It is a 50:50 now though even at max rage and with down throw being fresh, but the percent range isn't very lenient.

Diddy, Cloud and Pikachu are almost definitely losing matchups for ZSS now though. Maybe Greninja as well, while Rosalina, Ness and Mario have much more of a chance to be even now.

It's a good patch overall, but I can't help but be troubled for the future now. Any character that does well is likely to get bopped until they spontaneously decide to stop patching the game. It discourages development and is bad for the competitive scene. Some transparency about their goals and direction would be really nice, but it's Nintendo.

 

[TurboLink]

Maybe it's because I get to witness Blue shredding dudes with Mewtwo and my buddy is a Mewtwo nut, but I have never once slept on this character. I think he's always been solid. He's good now fer sure. Like, wow, a functional glass canon in Smash? What next, a well designed heavy in high tier? (Snake doesn't count, that character was whack as hell).

Ryu isn't a heavyweight? Captain Falcon? Yoshi?

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, morning team, on second thought, I'd still think it's safer to have ZSS/Sheik above most.
Maybe not Sheik as much
Zero Suit seems mostly fine. Down Throw Up Air at kill percent is harder... so that will matter, it's now probably more a 50/50 rather than guaranteed.

The grab nerfs don't really matter to the average tournament player.
Only people on wifi are going to respond to Zamus dashing towards them with a back roll - that's the main dynamic this grab nerf changed.
Not that people don't get caught back rolling from zamus in the real world, but whoever did get done in by that should've always felt like an idiot (I know I did).

Whoops @ nair's max range being taken down by .3 1 unit rather than the close to body hitbox.
That will... matter a little actually. But not game breaking (not too many people use nair to try to combat people directly air vs air, but I liked trying from time to time )

Everyone other than Cloud looks like they're on a similar power level~
But Cloud isn't toooooooooo bad.

Marth MU with Cloud got better due to fair being able to beat Cloud's moves. He couldn't before.
Down Tilt huge buff increase also gives a lot of control to Marth on the ground.
Is still a disadvantage but it was a complete white wash/blow out before.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

It's a good patch overall, but I can't help but be troubled for the future now. Any character that does well is likely to get bopped until they spontaneously decide to stop patching the game. It discourages development and is bad for the competitive scene.

That's a bit of a stretch. None of the major nerfs throughout this game's history have been unwarranted. Sheik's needles made half the cast obsolete, MK's and ZSS's ladder combos were too much reward for too little risk (less so for the latter). Luigi won matches basically with an algorithm centered around landing grabs. And diddy...let's not even discuss that.

I trust that Sakurai thinks long and hard before throwing out nerfs. If patches were doled out based on momentary shifts in community opinion, this game would be unplayable.

 

[Yikarur]

we were waiting for Sheik and ZSS nerfs for a half year already. It's not bad for the game that they are finally here. The nerfs are a good thing. They are no just nerfing "characters that do well" but they have observed the game for such a long time to decide the best possible nerf and they did a good job in my opinion.

 

[TDK]

Oh yeah, I agree Mewtwo's better than Lucario, espicially considered Lucario is one of the most overrated in this game easily.



retty good matchup spread, fairly good theory, good results from Esam, great edgeguarding and recovery, top 3 for both. Is better than Mewtwo in about every way.

:Good results with Istudying and Some, Theory close to Pikachu's and Ness's, matchup spread similar to the bottom of top tier (Now that Sheik is nerfed), great edgeguarding.

retty good theory but not as good as Greninja's or Pikachus, Not many results, much worse matchup spread than Pikachu and Greninja, really light AND big, which makes him really easy to kill, no confirmed combos, bad tilts. Has no great traits that Pikachu and Greninja have.

Mew^2 6-stocking M2K and then double eliminating him and giving DKWill a run for his money doesn't prove anything?

And if you say it's Mew^2 and not Mewtwo I'm going to have to remind you that ESAM is the only top level Pika and even he has been losing ground lately.

 

[Y2Kay]

Dang it, ARISTOS ! save him for me!

Mewtwo is also a really good edge guarder too. The way he can manipulate his air speed and direction is great, along with his Dair, fair, bair, and nair also stuffing certain recoveries.

Comparing mewtwo and pikachu doesn't even make since,but you STILL messed it up.

Pikachu is NOT better in every single way. Mewtwo's range, killpower, projectile, and mobility is better than pikachu's

Down tilt is litteraly one of the best tilts in the game, like wholly cow. That move has always been one of his redeeming factors, even when he was bad.

His matchup spread after this patch has improved a whole lot too, gave him serious problems before.

Mewtwo always has had traits that seperate him from these two, they (especially greninja) aren't objectively better than mewtwo before.

So me suggesting that MAYBE (hence the maybe, I'm not saying it's definitively or even likely , just possible) may surpass a fellow high tier and a very shaky low end top tier isn't so ludicrous, considering what mewtwo is working with.

It's quite astonishing Wintermelon43 that you seem to understand pikachu and greninja decently well, but understand so little about mewtwo.

 

[Trifroze]

We've come a long way

 

[Amadeus9]

Dang it, ARISTOS ! save him for me!

Mewtwo is also a really good edge guarder too. The way he can manipulate his air speed and direction is great, along with his Dair, fair, bair, and nair also stuffing certain recoveries.

Comparing mewtwo and pikachu doesn't even make since,but you STILL messed it up.

Pikachu is NOT better in every single way. Mewtwo's range, killpower, projectile, and mobility is better than pikachu's

Down tilt is litteraly one of the best tilts in the game, like wholly cow. That move has always been one of his redeeming factors, even when he was bad.

His matchup spread after this patch has improved a whole lot too, gave him serious problems before.

Mewtwo always has had traits that seperate him from these two, they (especially greninja) aren't objectively better than mewtwo before.

So me suggesting that MAYBE (hence the maybe, I'm not saying it's definitively or even likely , just possible) may surpass a fellow high tier and a very shaky low end top tier isn't so ludicrous, considering what mewtwo is working with.

It's quite astonishing Wintermelon43 that you seem to understand pikachu and greninja decently well, but understand so little about mewtwo.

I think it's too early to presume any of MK's winning matchups have changed much, at this point. Lets give it a couple weeks.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That's a bit of a stretch. None of the major nerfs throughout this game's history have been unwarranted. Sheik's needles made half the cast obsolete, MK's and ZSS's ladder combos were too much reward for too little risk (less so for the latter). Luigi won matches basically with an algorithm centered around landing grabs. And diddy...let's not even discuss that.

I trust that Sakurai thinks long and hard before throwing out nerfs. If patches were doled out based on momentary shifts in community opinion, this game would be unplayable.

we were waiting for Sheik and ZSS nerfs for a half year already. It's not bad for the game that they are finally here. The nerfs are a good thing. They are no just nerfing "characters that do well" but they have observed the game for such a long time to decide the best possible nerf and they did a good job in my opinion.

Here's my worry; will they ever stop? Are we going to get patches that needlessly changes for the sake of changing them? Are they ever going to leave the meta alone? Are we really striving for perfect balance? Will we be ever satisfied?

EDIT: oh and i don't mean to direct this at you too specifically, I'm talking in general (I prolly shouldn't quoted y'all like that but idk *shrugs*).

 

[C0rvus]

Ryu isn't a heavyweight? Captain Falcon? Yoshi?

Bleh, I mean super heavyweight characters like DK, Bowser, Dedede. You know, the True Heavies™. Would be cool if they could somehow make one of them high tier material without them being stupid. Not sure if it's possible.
Even in the case of traditional fighting games, it's rare to see a grappler in the highest tiers. Not sure if you can do it without creating a monster (see: Under Night In-Birth's Merkava and Waldstein. I still have PTSD.)

 

[Trifroze]

That's a bit of a stretch. None of the major nerfs throughout this game's history have been unwarranted. Sheik's needles made half the cast obsolete, MK's and ZSS's ladder combos were too much reward for too little risk (less so for the latter). Luigi won matches basically with an algorithm centered around landing grabs. And diddy...let's not even discuss that.

I trust that Sakurai thinks long and hard before throwing out nerfs. If patches were doled out based on momentary shifts in community opinion, this game would be unplayable.

They nerfed the wrong things about Sheik for a year. They finally got Sheik right in this patch, but nerfed the wrong things about ZSS. The ladder combo has gone nowhere and flip jump still makes disadvantage free. I would rather get the right things nerfed instantly than get a bunch of random damage reductions on moves that don't deserve them and then still have to take the actually warranted nerfs on top of that later on when they realize what the problem really is, if there is any at this point.

 

[Ulevo]

One thing I will say about Meta Knight is I do not like his current incarnation. Whether or not he is still good remains to be seen, but from the way he functions his up air now sets him up to kill with his sweet spot on Shuttle Loop. The issue with this is it has always been very inconsistent and poorly designed. You rob the opponent of stocks when you do not intend to but if you had a method of reliably hitting with it they simply DI and the entire 2nd hit whiffs. What I enjoyed about pre-patch Meta Knight was the up air allowed to shark for sour spot Shuttle Loops but required the appropriate angle (there are four), but now you cannot do that without risk hitting a sweet spot that mat whiff entirely. Thematically they have tarnished a good thing when all they really needed to do was up the KBG on up air so it did not kill at the %'s it did.

Too bad.

 

[Vyrnx]

For people talking about Samus' increased bomb mobility, I'm pretty sure it is just her increased air speed (which isn't included in the patch notes yet). It's a significant difference.

The Samus buffs are so huge. I've been thinking for a while that Samus' only remaining too-weak moves were ftilt and nair (and dsmash I guess but that sets up CS tech chases, and dsmash isn't a fundamentally good move), which were fundamentally good moves that just didn't do enough damage/knockback. Now ftilt is one of the longest ranged tilts in smash that is safe on hit up close, damages well, and kills. Nair kills outright stupidly early and gimps earlier because of its knockback angle, and the old lingering hitboxes combined with increased knockback make it even better for edge guarding. Fair links better, grabs are less laggy, better air speed, even better dash attack (which also improves Samus' close range). And her worst matchup, MK, got nerfed.