Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[C0rvus]

I think literally every character other than Sheik benefits from a weaker Sheik. The needles change is by far the most significant. Now many tools have a longer range (many Thunder variations, charged Water Shuriken, etc.) and they can alleviate a lot of the pressure that Needles exert. She is still clearly a top character, which I'm glad about. Noone deserves to have their hard work trashed THAT hard.

 

[ARISTOS]

Who are the most buffed characters with the Sheik nerfed ?

I would probably say Greninja

Either or , most likely. Though that isn't to underestimate the nerfs impact; every character in the game benefits from a weakened Sheik

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Though I think Charizard may have made the biggest leap forward. Those aerial buffs are straight-up insane.

 

[AvengerV]

Diddy Top 5 now???

 

[Pazzo.]

We'll see soon enough how this will all pan out.

No doubt Sheik mains will have a harder time along with Meta Knight, ZSS, Cloud...

This is all very exciting.

 

[ReroRero]

Either or , most likely. Though that isn't to underestimate the nerfs impact; every character in the game benefits from a weakened Sheik

I didn't think about Ike even though he is my main but even though Needles where a big issue, he still struggle at recovering against her

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy Top 5 now???

Diddy has never been not top 5.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Diddy Top 5 now???

He always was. He's even better now

EDIT: heh

 

[Trunks159]

Lol, watch Diddy somehow creep up to #1 again.

Can someone please confirm whether fthrow confirms into a kill?

I still think may still be the best (reading these notes) but I haven't tested anything yet.

 

[AvengerV]

Diddy has never been not top 5.

He always was. He's even better now

EDIT: heh

last patch I'd argue that the characters above him were


Now I believe that Diddy is top 5.

 

[Radical Larry]

Cloud being the king is outright overrating him. He's still got a lot of bad MUs against certain middle to low tier characters that would outright prevent him from being the best. He's still around top 12 at least, considering he still has nerfs to go along with him.

 

[bc1910]

From my testing, Sheik throws do NOT give you 50/50s into kills with correct DI.

On Greninja, DI away (so not even optimal up+away) and Fthrow stops comboing into Fair, let alone Uair, at about 102%. You can jump out after this. Dthrow stops comboing about 10% later.

Sheik's throws were straight up gutted, I'm afraid.

ZSS on the other hand seems basically okay.

Going to address just this bit and say with the tech the MK guys are figuring out with their new Fair.... I don't know if MK's taken THAT much of a hit.

Apparently cancelling Fair after first hit -> Dash Attack -> Up B is a combo that kills at 60+%. And there is also just cancelling fair after the first hit near the ledge -> start charging Fsmash because you're covering almost every one of their options and because of Fsmash's low cooldown you'll be able to punish them if they manage not to get hit. And apparently Fair is now pretty much safe on shield?

MK is probably still pretty darn scary, just for different reasons.

There's no doubt MK is still scary.

There's also no doubt that regardless, he is worse off now.

And if he starts death combos off Fair 1 rather than Dash Attack, that's fine by me.

 

[wedl!!]

And those matchups are...?

 

[RonNewcomb]

And those [bad Cloud] matchups are...?

?

(I also wanna be cheeky and say because of Prince Ramen vs M2K but that's just silly.)

 

[Big-Cat]

Things are looking promising. all had huge gains with this patch either directly or indirectly so it's a good day to be fat.

Bowser got a HUGE gain with three of his worst, if not THE worst, matchups getting gutted/nerfed. IMO, this leaves him hard, but manageable matchups at most instead of "gets destroyed".

The dev team has made a clear path every patch. Buff neutral. Nerf advantage. Only nerf the neutral options that are overtuned. Only buff advantage if it's sorely lacking.

I am digging it.

This reminds me of how the whole genre as a whole has started a shift towards focusing back on neutral.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Though I think Charizard may have made the biggest leap forward. Those aerial buffs are straight-up insane.

Oh, I think he won the most overall this patch to be sure. He got that throw combo a while back, now he has aerial improvements to complement it and more weight for more survivability. And his trump card (Side B) got buffed. It gets possibly even better: in the patch notes discussion topic (not the official patch notes topic) there is talk that they might have improved his jumpsquat by one as well.

 

[Pazzo.]

It's like Smash 4 patches are some sort of artificial entropy.

Universal law strikes again as all the power pans out into nothing.

 

[bc1910]

Sheik has Fox syndrome. Once you hit a certain percent you don't gain any new kill moves until like, 200%.

The difference being that Fox's raw kill options (Usmash, Bair, Uair) kill way earlier than Sheik's and are much easier to land.

Sheik cannot kill a shielding opponent either.

 

[Radical Larry]

And those matchups are...?

I'll make it short and with only four of my examples.

is my most prominent (and secondmost dangerous) example. He has attacks that not only send Cloud off stage, but has so many more options to counter Cloud's own options, especially when it comes to getup and recovery. Link is susceptible to Cloud's combo ability and fast attacks, but can counter some of Cloud's attacks with his own fast attacks, if he dares block. A free Spin Attack awaits a blocked Cloud attack normally. Oh, and D-Smash dealing more KB on the semi-spike second hit makes him even more dangerous.

While not Low Tier, he will give Cloud a near-impossible challenge, since he can pretty much force Cloud to approach, and almost guarantees hits against Cloud that would otherwise not hit better characters. Gyro is also a pretty annoying projectile to deal with and Robo Beam makes Cloud kind of want to cry. And let's not forget that ROB has the throw combo ability and great edge-guarding, so good that Cloud's guaranteed dead recovering anywhere. F-Smash or D-Air, pick your death.

just became a bad MU for Cloud. Now that her N-Air deals 10% damage and more KB as a result, as well as her better combo ability against Cloud this patch, one N-Air at just the right damage will set her up to kill Cloud. Let's also consider her better frame data on various attacks, better combo ability (and damage racking), and her big ability to gimp Cloud (knowing what Izaw showed us, Cloud's doomed by Charge Shot).

He does have an even at worst, but 55:45 at best against Cloud. The buffs, like Samus, made him far better against Cloud than ever before. Just one F-Tilt will absolutely destroy Cloud at the right damage and read (which means Cloud will have to make the worst judgement), and yet even then, Ganondorf can still combo Cloud thanks to the buffs this patch, and deals a lot of damage no less. Considering Cloud is one of the few sword characters WITHOUT a counter, Ganondorf really has nothing more to fear from Cloud than he has to fear from Link or Swordfighter...except he doesn't have to fear Cloud at all. Cloud has only one projectile, decent range and good frame data (most of the time), but Ganondorf can just truck in and ruin Cloud's plans. One hit will lead into a combo worth 60% damage now.

I am not 100% certain on Ganondorf yet. I'm going to lab him against others when I get home so I can get a better feel for him.

 

[Das Koopa]

ZeRo's mid-tiers are here!

 

[C0rvus]

Pokken comes out on friday. 3 Pokemon get big buffs. Coincidence? I think not.
Also Mac in mid tier? I actually find myself in agreement with Zero on this one. Sol has shown me the light.

Edit: SHULK THO? Dang. Still have no clue how to feel about the character.
Edit edit: Dedede? Kirby? Falco? There's plenty to talk about here, but tbh I don't want to dwell on it.

 

[ARISTOS]

ZeRo's mid-tiers are here!

29-44


I'm surprised by how high Shulk is, how low Megaman is, and that Mewtwo isn't 29 lol

 

[Radical Larry]

ZeRo's mid-tiers are here!

Bowser...that low?
Shulk THAT high?
If Shulk is ever 29, that's when Link is top 5.

 

[Zelder]

Mid tier lists represent the biggest problem with having a 58 character roster. At that point you're just trying to divine order from chicken bones.

Like, I want to point to something incredulous and be like "SHULK over ROBIN??!??!?!??!????" but honestly, trying to accurately rank viability that low into the tier list (this early into the game's life) is a fool's errand.

edit: nevermind, I see that everyone else has started on that path for me

 

[Pazzo.]

Surprised that Robin is beat by Dr. Mario AND Shulk.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

How is king dedede that high???
And Kirby not being in there either? :/
I mean if he says it's based on tourney results, then yes I can know kinda see why for kirby(even though he belongs somewhere in mid tier) but dedede is really who I question?

 

[Y2Kay]

ZeRo's mid-tiers are here!

Umm.....ok?

How are you gonna pull the no results card for Mewtwo but put Shulk in top 30? Cmon man.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Can someone test bouncing fish?

I swear its not invincible anymore.

 

[Radical Larry]

Umm.....ok?

How are you gonna pull the no results card for Mewtwo but put Shulk in top 30? Cmon man.

He just crammed as many people in there as he could because he didn't know the patch was coming.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

29-44


I'm surprised by how high Shulk is, how low Megaman is, and that Mewtwo isn't 29 lol

>Shulk

*spit take*

>D3

*another spit take*

Actually how about I just keep this short

>everyone on that list, either by their position within it or the fact they're in mid tier at all... except Marth, Marth looks very roughly right

*spit take*

 

[Big-Cat]

Bowser is not that low. Anyone that thinks that must think you can just toss out whatever against Bowser.

 

[C0rvus]

My biggest issue is that this is "mid tier" but it's like the latter end of the cast. There are only 9 characters left? This isn't a mid tier when your "high tier" has like 16 characters in it and so does top tier.
Also the list's criteria was most heavily weighed on his own opinion. Results were not applicable to a few of these characters. It's his list, so it doesn't matter in the slightest to me.

Also Mewtwo is high tier. Can't stop saying this.

 

[Radical Larry]

ZeRo says Link's Bottom 9?
Impressive, ZeRo, you make yourself look dumber than me.

 

[PK Gaming]

Don't feel like commenting on the order of ZeRo's mid tier, but mad ups to him for placing DDD there.

DDD is suuuuper underrated. I straight up cringe when people put him in bottom tier.

EDIT: Same deal with Falco to a lesser extent.

 

[jespoke]

ZeRo says Link's Bottom 9?
Impressive, ZeRo, you make yourself look dumber than me.

Well, the things ZeRo values in a character, Link has practically none of. And the stuff you value in a character, ZeRo thinks is worthless on its own.

 

[Das Koopa]

There are 13 left:



I agree that his name-method of ranking is bizarre and disagreeable, but the actual rankings from top/high seem roughly about right. I'm more disagreeable with his "Mid tier". A lack of BJ, Mewtwo too low, G&W and Shulk too high, etc. Though I agree with a few points:

A: Doc isn't as low as people tend to put him, he just isn't used much because he's a worse version of Mario.
B: Dedede may be better than people give him credit for due to his damage racking and Gordo traps, albeit I think ZeRo has him too high.
C: Marth and Lucina probably aren't that far off from each other.

 

[Yikarur]

Yep as I said, sheik still has a lot of kill confirms but only grab beats shield and it wont kill you from the centre of the stage unless you have the magic percents

Her grabs still put in perfect spots for potential killmoves and some 50:50 still exists so..

of course. As I said, max range needles in 1.1.5 are punishable on block

Thats just wrong. The nerf barely matters. And you use needles as a punish anyway.

The range is now as long as greninja's uncharged shurikens, not 3/4 of FD (the distance the two players start from each other). Thats a big nerf so sheik cant trap characters from the other side of the stage.

It was not 3/4 of FD. The old range of Sheiks needles were 2/3 (66,6%) of FD. The new range is 52% of FD. They will still be annoying landings traps, because the range is not necessary for that, but it's a bit fairer.

I can understand sheik's frame data making it not safe as when sheik covers a landing fair with a jab it stops moves frame 12 or above out of shield from punishing it.
But ...how does the spacing not affect the safety of fair?
So if I have two moves with the exact same startup, recovery time and landing lag but one is a sword and one is a Jigglypuff leg, they are equally as safe?

Fair is like -5 on block. Fair -> spotdodge or fair -> jab beats most punish options and thats only if the opponent reacts perfectly. This numbers get better if you autocancel fair perfectly. So in this scenario the range doesn't matter.
If you space fair then..the nerf almost doesn't matter. It's a really small one. It will rarely make a difference.
1.1.4
1.1.5

Badly spaced fair has always been punishable especially if you powershield it.

I think there is almost nothing in this game that is safe on powershield. But it's super hard to powershield sheiks fair because
1. of the low landing lag, She doesn't need to make use of her autocancel, she can vary the timing pretty well.
2. She has an insane autocancel. She can choose a lot of timings to hit you
3. The time between "getting hit by fair" and Sheik landing on the ground is shorter than the average reaction window. She can mix-up her fair with grabs very easily.


I call that Sheik is still the best character in the game, but much harder to use as a pocket character, which is a good thing!

 

[Solfiner]

I told you guys Shulk was that good. :^)

No but seriously, that's too high. He's somewhere in mid tier in my personal opinion though, sadly his representation is really lacking. He has some pretty crazy stuff like an up-throw up-air 50-50 if you buffer deactivate Jump. Also frame 14 Fsmash with that range and POWER in buster is no joke.

 

[zeldasmash]

Shulk is FAR too high and the fact that King Dedede is above characters like Falco, Little Mac, Bowser, Mega Man & Link is just........no.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Sorry, can someone show me a clip of Dedede winning against a player that is familiar with the matchup? From my theorycrafting, Dedede loses the neutral thanks to probably the most easily punished projectile in the game and slow movement speed, and can't take the neutral back because of his big body, polarized aerials, and slow airspeed. And all this trouble for what is merely an above-average advantage state.