Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ARISTOS]

We've come a long way

Our God is an awesome God

Here's my worry; will they ever stop? Are we going to get patches that needlessly changes for the sake of changing them? Are they ever going to leave the meta alone? Are we really striving for perfect balance? Will we be ever satisfied?

Nothing that has been patched so far has been so far out as to be "needless".

Plenty of games in the past have had active patching throughout their time spans and have been fine, even great for it.

@Thinkaman made a post in the past comparing the number of times Smash 4 has been patched compared to other competitive games and Smash wasn't even that patch heavy.

Meta development still continues, even after characters get nerfed. We're all better at the game now than we were in October of 2014, right?

1.14 was OK but this patch was definitely a very good step to take IMO

 

[FullMoon]

I mean, if we were to compare Greninja and Mewtwo, they both hit hard, are fast, have really good recoveries, great projectiles and are good edgeguarders. Mewtwo has an easier time scoring kills, but Greninja has better survivability and I think he might have an easier time racking up damage, especially now.

They look like they would be pretty close to each other to me, I think Greninja might have a better MU spread now, but I'm not very familiar with Mewtwo's

 

[Y2Kay]

I think it's too early to presume any of MK's winning matchups have changed much, at this point. Lets give it a couple weeks.

Oh yeah, I know. I see that labbing you've been doing. I just wanted to mention that, because no one else has.

It could end up still being a good win for Metaknight, it might not. No one knows for sure right now.

 

[bc1910]

Approaching Greninja through Fair's new landing lag is a tall order. Comparable to approaching ZSS through SH Nair. Only, Greninja has shurikens to force the approach more consistently. You don't want to lose the lead against this character.

Having played the Sheik MU from both sides, it's nowhere near as bad as it was. Greninja forces the approach to an extent, whiffed needles mean a free dashgrab on reaction, and his sideways aerials outrange Sheik's Fair (while the landing lag buffs prevent them from being totally free to Sheik DA).

Most importantly, she has a horrendous time getting the kill on such a mobile character. Greninja can reach a point where she will barely hit him with anything except dashgrab and grounded needles, neither of which can kill. Pivot Ftilt will probably be the future for her.

Immediate reaction? I would put this MU between -2 and -1, with a view to labbing it down to -1. A huge improvement from the -2/-3 situation last patch.

Greninja definitely lost his gatekeeper. As ever, I'm not expecting him to change much in the eyes of the wider community. He has real sleeper potential, though.

 

[BananaBake]

'Nothing that has been patched so far has been so far out as to be "needless".'
Bowser's up throw

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Our God is an awesome God



Nothing that has been patched so far has been so far out as to be "needless".

Plenty of games in the past have had active patching throughout their time spans and have been fine, even great for it.

@Thinkaman made a post in the past comparing the number of times Smash 4 has been patched compared to other competitive games and Smash wasn't even that patch heavy.

Meta development still continues, even after characters get nerfed. We're all better at the game now than we were in October of 2014, right?

1.14 was OK but this patch was definitely a very good step to take IMO

It's because the base of the game needed some tweaks to be able to sustain good character variety. But honestly, we've have had good balance since like, 1.08 or something; everything past that was the dev team spoiling us. With the #1 being up for grabs, there's very little reason for continuation of patching. A game should be touched as little as possible to allow the game to really blossom on its own organically. Having yearly new best characters keeps the game from staying consistent, look at LoL (extreme example, but an example nonetheless).

We really don't need any further patching (buffs to D3, jiggly, shulk, and such are needed of course, but that's about it).

 

[Zannabluke]

haven't had the time play the patch yet but did bowser's new air speed improve his uthrow > uair by any means?
i assume that his 8 f jumpsquat still screws him over but in 1.1.5 he should follow the opponent's di more effectively, right?

 

[Shaya]

I keep failing looking at these numbers, but hopefully this time I got it right.

Zero Suit's neutral air had it's max horizontal range reduced by 1 unit (contra to Marth's 1 unit increase the prior patch).
BUT, it now hit's half a unit lower.

So, in fact.
We got a slight buff in it's best use case... which is a vertically falling.
And it will be ever so slightly easier to hit lower to the ground characters.

I'm ACTUALLY PRETTY HAPPY ABOUT THAT



TAKE THAT, VON PIKACHUS~

Also, laughably, I'd guess rising nair from the ground may be hitting an extra character or two.

ZSS camping shield for up-b against Sheik is also pretty plausible.

 

[BlazGreen]

The lower half of the tier list is going change drastically to the point where I can see low and bottom tier merging into one.


Low
F:
G:

Bottom
H:
I:
J:


, , and maybe are going to leave for mid tier or higher. I feel , , and have been buffed to the point where they shouldn't be separated from low tier and while he wasn't buffed, I don't think is that much worse either. The Miis are a problem and I'll be honest I'm not up to date when it comes their rulesets so I'm not sure where I'd put them. This just leaves who at least has some results and (R.I.P). I guess you could put them in bottom tier along with the Miis if they can't go custom but I'd much rather put them at the end of Low tier.

 

[C0rvus]

Minor buffs are nice, but you don't just get to leave low tier because you got a faster jab or a new combo.
Please remember that SOMEONE has to be low tier. Being low tier only means you are in the lower part of the cast. It doesn't intrinsically mean you are a **** character.
Cool, Ganon and Zelda and Charizard got some much needed love from the developers. Aside from maybe Zard and Samus, they are all still just as disfunctional and are still bad relative to the rest of the cast. They are still low tier when you line everyone up.

 

[R3D3MON]

Nothing that has been patched so far has been so far out as to be "needless".
Bowser's up throw

Not to mention nerfs on DDD's d-throw (because his punish game from d-throw was too "powerful" I guess). Also the nerfs on Gordo toss. Just why???

Also worth mentioning nerfs on Samus's f-tilt (3DS days). The move was fantastic for setting up tech chase situations into Charge Shot at kill %s. They decided to nerf it so that it was not safe ON HIT due to an added sourspot and also the increased KBG on the sweetspot. Why???. Thank god Sakurai decided to re-buff the character.

Also have to mention the extreme mega nerf on luigi which basically also killed his punish meta (because Sakurai forgot that the character's main damage output was from d-throw), without buffing moves like nair, fair, up tilt, or up air (actually Sakurai also nerfed fair...). Also his nerfs on d-tilt. Why???

So clearly there have been several rather significant nerfs to various characters over the course of the SSB4 patch history.

Note that I'm not saying that Sakurai hasn't made any good decisions with patches, but saying that all patches for SSB4 have been great or positive is very misguided indeed.

 

[sedrf]

https://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator
1st mildly relevant local is happening today. mew^2 is playing today if that might be important to you.

also:
Midwest Mayhem ft. Mr. R, Hyuga, ChuDat, Sethlon, & Max Ketchum (S4C Event
this is big.

 

[Y2Kay]

I honestly believe that Zard has been low tier since the down throw buffs. Seeing characters like 1111 Mii Brawler still viewed as better than him even though he has been getting plenty of love bothers me.

It's a shame because it's not like shulk where people have tried and failed, it's not like Zelda where she was straight up dysfunctional and had a fighting scheme and stats that are literally designed for failure.

Charizard hasn't moved because people just don't care about him, he's been slowly improving, but very little actually notice. His is driven just by a handful of scattered Zard lovers. He seems to have just drawn the short end of the stick when it comes attracting loyal fans.

Zard isn't super great or anything, but people seem to right him off too much and/or for the wrong reasons. He's actually pretty solid, especially after the patch. His weaknessses just kind of suck for this kinda metagame. I'd main him if I could, but right now there are some other underrepresented pokemon I've been dedicating most of my time to. I keep him as a pocket for funsies now, mostly.

 

[L9999]

The lower half of the tier list is going change drastically to the point where I can see low and bottom tier merging into one.


Low
F:
G:

Bottom
H:
I:
J:


, , and maybe are going to leave for mid tier or higher. I feel , , and have been buffed to the point where they shouldn't be separated from low tier and while he wasn't buffed, I don't think is that much worse either. The Miis are a problem and I'll be honest I'm not up to date when it comes their rulesets so I'm not sure where I'd put them. This just leaves who at least has some results and (R.I.P). I guess you could put them in bottom tier along with the Miis if they can't go custom but I'd much rather put them at the end of Low tier.

Garbage tier is still the same. all of them have the worst MU spreads in the game, that's why they are here. Just because they got some minor buffs doesn't mean they will jump tiers. Someone has to be the worse. With low tier it just comes down to who is the most dissapointing. .

 

[Deleted member]

Not to mention nerfs on DDD's d-throw (because his punish game from d-throw was too "powerful" I guess). Also the nerfs on Gordo toss. Just why???

The Gordo hitbox size reduction was most likely because people still got hit by the Gordo when they reflected it. It still happens, but on a less constant basis. Patch 1.0.4. definitely hit Dedede with quite a few pointless nerfs though. Why decrease the damage on fair when it was already a bad move?

I know people get hyped, but, IMO the trash tier will remain the same.
No players, no proof. He has been carried by theory enough.
I see where ZeRo is coming from, but no, DDD is trash. Maybe his MUs got better, but they are still bad.
Let's be real, his MU spread is still garbage.
No changes, was trash already. All he can aspire from FreeMii is low tier, because in customs he is just an alternate version of , who is not that good to begin with.
Her grabs are better, and she has a Hoo-hah, but she is still super sluggish on everything.
Just copy paste everything I said about Swordfighter. Yes, all he can aspire is low tier, Mii Brawler is linear and flawed.
Let's forget this character even exists. The hacks behind the patches don't acknowledge her, so why should we?

This post comes off as needlessly pessimistic and almost militant. The characters still have flaws but it's not fair to just write some of these characters off (please note I said some, I agree that characters like and will most likely stay low due to their lack of any positive changes in patches and other factors, with Dedede even getting nerfs in 1.0.4 and 1.1.4) and just say "lol they'll always suck", especially since got huge buffs this patch. Maybe he'll be able to gain more rep this year to show what he's capable of. You never know.

No changes, was trash already. All he can aspire from FreeMii is low tier, because in customs he is just an alternate version of , who is not that good to begin with.

I don't think I've ever seen anything say anything so wrong in my entire life.

 

[Das Koopa]

Mewtwo being in the low tier tourney looking real silly right now

 

[R3D3MON]

@Feelicks
Not to mention nerfs on his airspeed in patch 1.1.4 and the decrease in the hitbox size of gordos themselves in 1.0.4. I guess FG data really screwed the character's balance. Poor DDD :/

 

[BSP]

That's a bit of a stretch. None of the major nerfs throughout this game's history have been unwarranted

Pac-Man nerfs :/

Minus his original U smash. That was pretty dumb.

 

[Deleted member]

@Feelicks
Not to mention nerfs on his airspeed in patch 1.1.4 and the decrease in the hitbox size of gordos themselves in 1.0.4. I guess FG data really screwed the character's balance. Poor DDD :/

Yeah, it's really unfortunate. As I said before, Dedede is a popular character in lower level play, and can be tricky to punish in online lag, especially on FG. With that said, how is Dedede viewed in Japan? I know he's regarded more favorably in Europe because of players like El_Bardo, but what about over there?

 

[Y2Kay]

I would complain about greninja's early nerfs but oh man this new fair daddy sakurai gave him is sooo good!

 

[Trifroze]

There is absolutely no way Samus is bottom anymore. Also did anyone yet bring up how Ganondorf can combo dash attack sourspot into uair at kill percents after the patch? Slowly but surely, he's making his way.

Shaya you must be right because this is a thing now:

Spoiler

It's a 1 frame timing, but yeah.

 

[Solfiner]

I honestly believe that Zard has been low tier since the down throw buffs. Seeing characters like 1111 Mii Brawler still viewed as better than him even though he has been getting plenty of love bothers me.

It's a shame because it's not like shulk where people have tried and failed, it's not like Zelda where she was straight up dysfunctional and had a fighting scheme and stats that are literally designed for failure.

Charizard hasn't moved because people just don't care about him, he's been slowly improving, but very little actually notice. His is driven just by a handful of scattered Zard lovers. He seems to have just drawn the short end of the stick when it comes attracting loyal fans.

Zard isn't super great or anything, but people seem to right him off too much and/or for the wrong reasons. He's actually pretty solid, especially after the patch. His weaknessses just kind of suck for this kinda metagame. I'd main him if I could, but right now there are some other underrepresented pokemon I've been dedicating most of my time to. I keep him as a pocket for funsies now, mostly.

Honestly, most Shulk players that have been able to rep him in the American scene really haven't labbed enough, which makes sense since most of them don't main him. If you want a good Shulk, you need to LAB. Lab the different timings for MALLCs, lab the timing of pivot art activations, lab art deactivation buffering etc etc. Most people also play him waay too streamlined. "Monado speed? BETTER TRY GETTING FIVE PIVOT GRABS" He's a character that's centered around precise spacing, frame trapping and fake outs. He's not supposed to play like any other swordie, that's why you can't play him like one.

 

[Deleted member]

There is absolutely no way Samus is bottom anymore. Also did anyone yet bring up how Ganondorf can combo dash attack sourspot into uair at kill percents after the patch? Slowly but surely, he's making his way.

Shaya you must be right because this is a thing now:

Spoiler

It's a 1 frame timing, but yeah.

"Jigglypuff goes/even beats ZSS because she can crouch her moveset!"

I agree that Samus isn't bottom tier anymore. This patch did her some good favors indeed.

 

[Das Koopa]

This Shockwave has 130 entrants

I guess this'll be the first tourny I put into the next data list

 

[Blobface]

Ganon could combo sour DA --> Uair at kill percents before this patch, but the window is considerably longer on both ends now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

We've come a long way

Bow before your emperor you pleb

 

[Das Koopa]

Bow before your emperor you pleb

Lookin' like Melee HD. Marth Top 3 when?kappa

That Duck Hunt on Stream didn't look so good. Don't see how DH loses to Mac on BF...

 

[Ninten.M1]

Is Fox actually that good?
I don't really know how.... but okay then.

 

[C0rvus]

He was playing with a 3DS. It only makes sense that the set looked like early 3DS gameplay.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Since there hasn't been a single mention since the patch came out, here's a humble little post dedicated to another winner in this patch.

This. I know you guys don't always think very highly of Doulgas (seems like everyone seems to think they have a positive match up vs him, like lol what no) but something tells me the Sheik MU will be a bit more bearable. And his MU spread before the oatch was already pretty solid, with Sheik ebing the worst at 30:70 and Pikachu following at 35:65. Then what you have maybe Cloud and ZSS at 40:60? This was a good patch for Falcon.

Also have to mention the extreme mega nerf on luigi which basically also killed his punish meta (because Sakurai forgot that the character's main damage output was from d-throw), without buffing moves like nair, fair, up tilt, or up air (actually Sakurai also nerfed fair...). Also his nerfs on d-tilt. Why???

That was intentional. The characters everything was from d-throw. Damage racking, killing, neutral was throw fireballs around until you could run up and grab. He was unhealthy for the meta. I know you really like this character but please move on from this. It was a good thing.
Please don't try and retaliate by saying I'm salty like I've seen you do many times to others when this sort of topic comes up. Be better than that. All it does is make you look like the salty one.

 

[Das Koopa]

Keep an eye out for P2P With Gibus at Shockwave. He's a good Greninja.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ryu vs Mewtwo new most awesome match in the game.

Whoever is better at footsies wins.

And the loser dies a miserable death.

It is glorious.

Amen on that Emblem Lord. Ryu is one of the few Top tiers I enjoy fighting as Mewtwo. I remember I took your advice and studied up some on Street Fighter Footsies (read the handbook; watched some sets from Snake Eyes and XSK Samurai), and tried to apply to smash. The first opponent I face after my study was indeed a Ryu. Maybe I'm just associating it with the feeling of Mewtwo finally clicking with me. Look at my old matches I played Mewtwo so timidly but now I feel more confident in him. Any other good Street Fighter stuff to see by the way?

 

[R3D3MON]

YerTheBestAROUND

So they should buff the character in other areas so that he can be compensated. Instead they don't...

EDIT: They should have added meaningful buffs for the character as compensation. Sakurai doesn't...

 

[meleebrawler]

YerTheBestAROUND

So they should buff the character in other areas so that he can be compensated. Instead they don't...

EDIT: They should have added meaningful buffs for the character as compensation. Sakurai doesn't...

Luigi is who he is: a goofier, clumsier Mario, yet surprisingly powerful in obscure ways.

 

[Luigi player]

I keep failing looking at these numbers, but hopefully this time I got it right.

Zero Suit's neutral air had it's max horizontal range reduced by 1 unit (contra to Marth's 1 unit increase the prior patch).
BUT, it now hit's half a unit lower.

So, in fact.
We got a slight buff in it's best use case... which is a vertically falling.
And it will be ever so slightly easier to hit lower to the ground characters.

I'm ACTUALLY PRETTY HAPPY ABOUT THAT



TAKE THAT, VON PIKACHUS~

Also, laughably, I'd guess rising nair from the ground may be hitting an extra character or two.

ZSS camping shield for up-b against Sheik is also pretty plausible.

Comparing the hitboxes on these images:

For those curious of the ZSS Nair change:

Spoiler: Before

Spoiler: After

I get this if I draw lines on the lowest parts of the hitboxes:

Overall the further away hitbox is lower than before (though exactly the same lowness as the previous closer hitbox).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Amen on that Emblem Lord. Ryu is one of the few Top tiers I enjoy fighting as Mewtwo. I remember I took your advice and studied up some on Street Fighter Footsies (read the handbook; watched some sets from Snake Eyes and XSK Samurai), and tried to apply to smash. The first opponent I face after my study was indeed a Ryu. Maybe I'm just associating it with the feeling of Mewtwo finally clicking with me. Look at my old matches I played Mewtwo so timidly but now I feel more confident in him. Any other good Street Fighter stuff to see by the way?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYDbFJn2i_w

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Everyone who mains a character with a projectile thinks they beat CF 100-0. The only projectile that actually shuts falcon down is needles. Everything else gets power shielded and then punished once the zone is broken.

 

[A10theHero]

Everyone who mains a character with a projectile thinks they beat CF 100-0. The only projectile that actually shuts falcon down is needles. Everything else gets power shielded and then punished once the zone is broken.

To be honest, I've never heard anybody ever say that.
That person's credibility should be questioned if they make such simplistic conclusions.

 

[sedrf]

sheik seems alright going from the footage.

 

[Tri Knight]

I just realized Sheik's F-air range was nerfed.


I'm ready to cry. This has to be a dream. No more invisible claws!!!