Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Appledees]

Does Tyrant have any Megaman experience at all? Surprised me he considers it a bad matchup for MK. Like Megaman doesn't do awful in it but I don't see how he wins it legitimately.

I honestly want to know other MK mains' input on this

 

[Amadeus9]

Does Tyrant have any Megaman experience at all? Surprised me he considers it a bad matchup for MK. Like Megaman doesn't do awful in it but I don't see how he wins it legitimately.

I honestly want to know other MK mains' input on this

MK can win by disrespecting MM's space, holding onto metal blade, and abusing Megaman's weight to pull off dumb combos with stale uairs.

Megaman can win by shooting lemons

It's a frustrating matchup but definitely at least even, if not mk favor

 

[Megamang]

Megaman beating MK doesn't surprise me, pellets function like a constant trickle of slower needles. He is also good at knocking someone away when they get in with nair and jab buster hitboxes, which is done safely while shooting the pellets. His bair is actually better A2A than shiek's fair, with the exception that is suuuucks landing compared to fair. He is heavy, so MK has to win neutral a few more times before he can even win off a dash attack. Even if you are in the golden range, playing with your back to the ledge isn't so scary when you have a full arsenal of projectiles to pelt him with. Sticking him with a crash bomb means you can start to pressure safely and leave the corner, metal blade setups can kill MK very early...

Really it just comes down to Megaman has a great neutral, and it works in ways that hurt MK. He isn't supremely light like Rosa, so MK has a harder time making up the disadvantage. MK's slower speed in the air means it is easy to pick at him with bair, or outright kill/ do 40% with tornado juggles. The saving grace for MK, in my opinion, is gimping. Megaman doesn't recover extremely safely, BUT he recovers a lot with each hit of MK's dair, so it won't outright kill him but it will rack up a lot of damage.

Megaman's huge hands also can stuff MK in close range footsie situations, and a pivot grab can stop a dashing approach pretty cold. Its a tough situation, where MK is sitting there taking pellets, a standing shield can get you grabbed, thrown back into a distance, and repelleted and everything else has an answer for MK. This type of zoning struggles against burst hitboxes, movement, and needles, none of which MK has that beat needles. Its a MU I don't fear coming across in bracket too much, especially since there are more 'lets learn the death combo against top tiers' than fleshed out neutral MKs.

@Shady Shaymin There is also the issue of risk/reward. I'll use ZSS as an example, as megaman has really different gameplay. Landing a tilt can open up some situations where huge punishment happens, like knocking them back and then running up with a grab, but landing a nair or uair will open them up to harder punishment. Usually, an aerial has a better reward than a tilt, with notable exceptions across the cast such as DK utilt, MK as a character, etc. This is not only due to the nature of the moves, but the fact you can be moving towards someone when you hit an aerial. Additionally, if you hit an aerial and land the next frame, aerials usually have better recovery data for the power.

Also, missing a tilt barely and getting smashed blows, and a retreating an aerial often doesn't have this risk, again except against particularly good smashes.

that all said, I have been working on a more grounded, footsies/neutral focused ZSS, with some decent results. we see that the aerial only ZSS is open to a lot of problems, so im hoping my progression is one that will naturally flow with players getting better. Not to say im some sort of smashsayer, but often I think things in theory, try them with limited success, then see a top player use it and im like 'yea, thats how it looked in my head". Im seeing a ZSS that abuses her superior range more frequently, as well as her phenomenal walk speed and above average pivot data.

Moves like ZSS d-smash are interesting and relevant as well, where a SH aerial is the best way to pass over the hitbox. Many characters contort themselves in ways that make them harder to hit when airborne. finally, aerial focused gameplay is a traditional thing in smash, it has taken some players a while to get used to how powerful a grounded character can be in sm4sh, even if its not melee falco/fox facing away utilt unbreakable =P

Re: Falco shine knocking you down. Can he follow up if I just roll away?

EDIT: holding my metal blade is in no way scary. I have access to pellets, crash bomber, leaf shield, and all my normal moves. You have no quick access to your normals. My pellets stop metal blade cold. Please, hold onto my metal blade all game. You aren't gonna win with MK's specials.

 

[Locke 06]

Not mentioning buffered Dash attack vs pellets means you don't know how the Mega man v Meta Knight matchup actually plays out.

Needles pop MK up. Pellets do not. It's a very big difference.

Tyrant has played sonicmega at least once (YouTube), who is a very leafshield heavy player. Oddly, leaf shield is a strong tool vs MK as it will interrupt his strings.


Edit: for clarification, you can't actually buffer a dash attack. But DA'ing immediately out of hitstun is very strong for characters like Fox and MK vs pellets if you are firing unsafely.

 

[Megamang]

So how does that play out? Im well aware needles are better, it was a bad analogy sure. I don't have a top or high level MK to play against, but a top level MK did just post that he thinks Megaman wins the MU, so I'd imagine he has some struggle vs pellets. His match vs Sonicmega I found he beat him pretty solidly, destroying him in game 2, with almost no pellets.

Its annoying when people post something like 'you don't know X' without actually explaining anything. The point of the forum, after all, is to discuss stuff, not accrue gotcha points.

Are you talking about MK eating a three pellet salvo then just buffering a DA after the brief hitstun, to hit megaman? I haven't seen that in action. Or can he repeatedly buffer DA to cancel pellets?

Regardless, sonicmega plays very very differently than Scatt. I prefer the Scatt playstyle, I think it is more optimal and stronger in both practice and theory. I don't blame sonicmega for his playstyle, but I don't think it will work when people learn the MU and how to beat Leaf Shield + Roll. Hence, him winning game 1 vs tyrant and then losing 2 in a row, one pretty badly.

The game I found was a winners finals match in something called SSS 33.

EDIT: You were referring to DA after being hit with pellets? Megaman should either jump back if he sees the pellets hitting, or move forward and land a jab or nair hit when possible. If he just stands there after 3 pellets hit, then a DA will hit him. Im not sure how not mentioning this means I don't know how the MU plays out. Don't fire pellets and stand there is an unspoken rule, its the very advantage of pellets over other projectiles.

 

[sedrf]

do you think the development of new rosa players might be hindered by cloud?

 

[outfoxd]

do you think the development of new rosa players might be hindered by cloud?

It has made me question my decision occasionally.

 

[HFlash]

From the above link, this is a rating of characters' neutral games (this is still in the works, guys, so take some placements with a grain of salt):

View attachment 100250

This list is severely underrating DK. The character has great CQC with his long disjoints on a lot of his moves, great frame data, and the fact that you have to respect his grab due to how much he gets out of them. His issue has never been his neutral/advantage, but rather his disadvantage (easy to combo, no landing options, bad recovery, etc).

 

[warionumbah2]

Other than Leo every top MK made a MU spread although Ito's was made shortly after G3.

Abadango's

Spoiler

He put "even or small advantage" twice on accident.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Megaman beating MK doesn't surprise me, pellets function like a constant trickle of slower needles. He is also good at knocking someone away when they get in with nair and jab buster hitboxes, which is done safely while shooting the pellets. His bair is actually better A2A than shiek's fair, with the exception that is suuuucks landing compared to fair. He is heavy, so MK has to win neutral a few more times before he can even win off a dash attack. Even if you are in the golden range, playing with your back to the ledge isn't so scary when you have a full arsenal of projectiles to pelt him with. Sticking him with a crash bomb means you can start to pressure safely and leave the corner, metal blade setups can kill MK very early...

Really it just comes down to Megaman has a great neutral, and it works in ways that hurt MK. He isn't supremely light like Rosa, so MK has a harder time making up the disadvantage. MK's slower speed in the air means it is easy to pick at him with bair, or outright kill/ do 40% with tornado juggles. The saving grace for MK, in my opinion, is gimping. Megaman doesn't recover extremely safely, BUT he recovers a lot with each hit of MK's dair, so it won't outright kill him but it will rack up a lot of damage.

Megaman's huge hands also can stuff MK in close range footsie situations, and a pivot grab can stop a dashing approach pretty cold. Its a tough situation, where MK is sitting there taking pellets, a standing shield can get you grabbed, thrown back into a distance, and repelleted and everything else has an answer for MK. This type of zoning struggles against burst hitboxes, movement, and needles, none of which MK has that beat needles. Its a MU I don't fear coming across in bracket too much, especially since there are more 'lets learn the death combo against top tiers' than fleshed out neutral MKs.

@Shady Shaymin There is also the issue of risk/reward. I'll use ZSS as an example, as megaman has really different gameplay. Landing a tilt can open up some situations where huge punishment happens, like knocking them back and then running up with a grab, but landing a nair or uair will open them up to harder punishment. Usually, an aerial has a better reward than a tilt, with notable exceptions across the cast such as DK utilt, MK as a character, etc. This is not only due to the nature of the moves, but the fact you can be moving towards someone when you hit an aerial. Additionally, if you hit an aerial and land the next frame, aerials usually have better recovery data for the power.

Also, missing a tilt barely and getting smashed blows, and a retreating an aerial often doesn't have this risk, again except against particularly good smashes.

that all said, I have been working on a more grounded, footsies/neutral focused ZSS, with some decent results. we see that the aerial only ZSS is open to a lot of problems, so im hoping my progression is one that will naturally flow with players getting better. Not to say im some sort of smashsayer, but often I think things in theory, try them with limited success, then see a top player use it and im like 'yea, thats how it looked in my head". Im seeing a ZSS that abuses her superior range more frequently, as well as her phenomenal walk speed and above average pivot data.

Moves like ZSS d-smash are interesting and relevant as well, where a SH aerial is the best way to pass over the hitbox. Many characters contort themselves in ways that make them harder to hit when airborne. finally, aerial focused gameplay is a traditional thing in smash, it has taken some players a while to get used to how powerful a grounded character can be in sm4sh, even if its not melee falco/fox facing away utilt unbreakable =P

Re: Falco shine knocking you down. Can he follow up if I just roll away?

EDIT: holding my metal blade is in no way scary. I have access to pellets, crash bomber, leaf shield, and all my normal moves. You have no quick access to your normals. My pellets stop metal blade cold. Please, hold onto my metal blade all game. You aren't gonna win with MK's specials.

On the falco thing if he trips you with down b then it essentially becomes a tech chase scenario and that's it. If you roll away the most he can get is a laser or a side b depending on the distance outside of that f smash if around the ledge but usually the max range of it.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

MK not bopping shulk?
wow, some players actually look beyond his frame data.

 

[Y2Kay]

Other than Leo every top MK made a MU spread although Ito's was made shortly after G3.

Abadango's

Spoiler

He put "even or small advantage" twice on accident.

Did Aba give his reasoning for placing greninja in the big advantage? From my view point I don't understand how greninja could do that badly against him.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Monado Shield can mess with/let Shulk live through MK's ladder and his mobility arts serve him well in keeping away from him. He doesn't always have shield though and MK still gets more off his hits. Definitely MK's favor, but it could be worse.

 

[FullMoon]

These MK MU charts are just all over the place lol

 

[Solfiner]

I agree with Shulk having disadvantage against MK, but definitely not big disadvantage. Probably 6-4.

 

[Trifroze]

that all said, I have been working on a more grounded, footsies/neutral focused ZSS, with some decent results. we see that the aerial only ZSS is open to a lot of problems, so im hoping my progression is one that will naturally flow with players getting better. Not to say im some sort of smashsayer, but often I think things in theory, try them with limited success, then see a top player use it and im like 'yea, thats how it looked in my head". Im seeing a ZSS that abuses her superior range more frequently, as well as her phenomenal walk speed and above average pivot data.

Moves like ZSS d-smash are interesting and relevant as well, where a SH aerial is the best way to pass over the hitbox. Many characters contort themselves in ways that make them harder to hit when airborne. finally, aerial focused gameplay is a traditional thing in smash, it has taken some players a while to get used to how powerful a grounded character can be in sm4sh, even if its not melee falco/fox facing away utilt unbreakable =P

I think the sort of grounded ZSS you're depicting is basically Brawl ZSS, but in this game such a style doesn't play to the character's strengths at all. Zair now completely outclasses side b (rip this move), down smash isn't safe enough to control the ground that much anymore and her tilts don't setup into anything like her aerials do.

Several people have mentioned ZSS' walk needing to be utilized more, but while the speed is good, the acceleration on her walk is much slower than the likes of Sheik, Fox and Marth, and at the same time her fox trot is better than any of theirs. The acceleration makes a crucial difference because it prevents you from covering any decent distance unless you walk for a long time, but then you might as well just fox trot which is a 20 frame action and covers up to one third of the stage (the less the faster you flick the stick). Sheiks walk because her walk and ground game are good, Zero Suits dash and jump around because her dash and aerial game are good (although Sheik's aerial game is also good but that's beside the point). ZSS players aren't just being dumb and ignoring some hidden godlike option, the option simply isn't that useful.

ZSS has great aerial stats, a high shorthop to jump over projectiles and hitboxes quickly and heavy conversions off of safe falling aerials, while she doesn't have any safe conversions or even pokes on the ground (her grab and dash attack are also very punishable), plus she won't be landing any aerials on grounded opponents from rising shorthops. Thus, there's very little reason not to constantly keep yourself in the air looking for an opportunity to land a falling aerial on the opponent or just poke at them / air to air with zair from a distance and combine that with dashes and the threat of dash grab. Jab is really good for boxing situations and covering your own aggressive falling aerials, ftilt is good for kicking people away and dsmash is good for defensive reads, but ZSS really is an aerial character more than anything.

I think a patient ZSS is definitely better than an aggressive one in neutral though. You can be patient without being grounded.

 

[warionumbah2]

Did Aba give his reasoning for placing greninja in the big advantage? From my view point I don't understand how greninja could do that badly against him.

No he didn't. Also Leo considers Sheik a really bad MU so using him as an argument is dead now.

Light + Fastfall speed + Round hurtbox are very bad traits to have vs Sheik. Only MK has this trait, which is why down throw to uair is so free.

 

[Megamang]

It makes sense, considering the volatility of MK's play, and the differing approach that we see many MK players take to the game.

Trifroze I guess I meant more grounded in the spacing game, with heavy usage of falling aerials anyways. Thus, not really grounded. But utilt can lead to very advantageous situations.

I also like having the option of a well practiced grounded offense, as we have seen Dabuz powershielding Nairo to death I believe this skill will spread through the meta, forcing adaption of some kind on the ZSS end. Nairo looks less and less dominant.

I'd say its an aerial approach with more grounded supplement, including PPback as a sort of backdash. This is complemented by her extremely strong falling aerials. I didn't say there were 'being dumb and ignoring some godlike option', I merely suggested there is room for improvement. Or, a ZSS will never beat Dabuz again...

While her aerial tools are extremely strong, I think you gloss over some extremely potent ground options ZSS has, namely utilt, which is frame 3 with heavy intangibility and puts the opponent in a horrible situation being directly above ZSS. It is not a safe poke, and it sometimes doesn't connect fully, but I believe it is very powerful in tandem with a f1 jab that the entire cast is jealous of.

The accel information on the ground is very interesting, and it makes sense as to why shiek seems so much faster when walking around. I will use more foxtrot for sure. And I do use zair a lot, it is an incredible tool that I think we will only see more of in the future.

 

[Trifroze]

It makes sense, considering the volatility of MK's play, and the differing approach that we see many MK players take to the game.

Trifroze I guess I meant more grounded in the spacing game, with heavy usage of falling aerials anyways. Thus, not really grounded. But utilt can lead to very advantageous situations.

I also like having the option of a well practiced grounded offense, as we have seen Dabuz powershielding Nairo to death I believe this skill will spread through the meta, forcing adaption of some kind on the ZSS end. Nairo looks less and less dominant.

I'd say its an aerial approach with more grounded supplement, including PPback as a sort of backdash. This is complemented by her extremely strong falling aerials. I didn't say there were 'being dumb and ignoring some godlike option', I merely suggested there is room for improvement. Or, a ZSS will never beat Dabuz again...

While her aerial tools are extremely strong, I think you gloss over some extremely potent ground options ZSS has, namely utilt, which is frame 3 with heavy intangibility and puts the opponent in a horrible situation being directly above ZSS. It is not a safe poke, and it sometimes doesn't connect fully, but I believe it is very powerful in tandem with a f1 jab that the entire cast is jealous of.

The accel information on the ground is very interesting, and it makes sense as to why shiek seems so much faster when walking around. I will use more foxtrot for sure. And I do use zair a lot, it is an incredible tool that I think we will only see more of in the future.

All the stuff about ZSS' walk wasn't aimed at you btw, just at an idea that seemed to be slowly spreading around in here.

ZSS has good defensive options on the ground, but then we're not really talking about neutral anymore (if we ever were to begin with). (Power)shield to up b is amazing and utilt and even usmash are good as anti-airs, plus when it comes to advantage, grab variants, dash attack and down smash work well for punishing landings. Often it's better to stay on the ground and look for those rather than try to chase the opponent with aerials after you've forced them to use their mid-air jump.

I agree that in boxing situations utilt can be good for sending the opponent above yourself as well as doing decent damage, but it kinda competes with jab and up b in many scenarios and you can't be too triggerhappy with anything but her jab. Utilt is a really good move, just finds less use than it could if jab and/or up b didn't exist.

 

[Xandercosm]

Tyrant's MK MU spread:

View attachment 100278

Surprise: MK loses to Mario and Mega Man, and goes even with WFT.

I'm really surprised that he thinks MK loses to Mario. From my knowledge as a Mario main, the MU is typically considered 40:60 or 45:55. Can't speak to WFT or Mega Man, though. Mega Man should not beat MK, though. That sounds plain silly to me. I really lack the MU knowledge with Mega Man to tell, though. Maybe a Mega Man main could elaborate.

 

[Megamang]

I tried at the top of the page, though some found error with my analysis so take it with a grain of salt.

I still think the main point was true, that MK's biggest problem is breaking through powerful neutrals, and megaman excels at playing damaging keep away. He also does well at the ledge (unless he gets gimped, but MK's gimping isn't too strong against him until higher percentages), and is really heavy but not huge enough to make the combos super easy. As Locke pointed out, Leaf Shield is a powerful tool vs MK, since it screws up his set ups, and as always, is super strong when combined with mega's mixup of grab / dodge / throw leaf shield at you.

 

[Shaya]

Zero Suit would be an excessively different character with less lag (akin to her Brawl self) on down tilt and dash attack. Ignoring for a moment how unsafe they are (and generally unrewarding) they are still pretty great moves, in particular the range ZSS slides from her down tilt and the angle it sends people is really cool~
Much like how Meta Knight would be with an auto cancel on an aerial or two.
It wouldn't make them broken, it would just make them not to have such weirdly-out-of-place holes in their game that do not exist on newcomer DLC~

But just because those characters weren't designed inside and out to be universally enjoyable and strong in every capability, doesn't mean those areas aren't underdeveloped and could make the difference between a zero suit losing or winning to Rosalina. Among the close-knit zero suit crew, I've advocated down tilt long enough for them to realise "this is actually pretty good at dealing with lame crouchers!". Crouching and crawling in general is very unexplored on ZSS as we always seem to think being in the air is best...

Seemingly salt aside, all I've ever wanted out of the patch cycle was for every character to feel each of their moves have "merit" and are rewarding for their efforts.
I probably wouldn't say Dash Attack on ZSS is explicitly awful (it's quite the opposite, for an 8 frame move which is transcended it has astronomical range... if you wanted a god awful one with a similar number you would be looking at Falco) and hence wouldn't need any changes to still have a nice niche, I've been saying forever that I would take nerfs to both flip jump and boost kick just to have down tilt be not so out of place - it's okay for Bayonetta to have it though!
If only they did that boost kick nerf like 9 months ago - they likely would've compensated her with something like that (remember: Fox, Sonic, Pika, Luigi, Sheik and Diddy).

But now we're at this stage of the game (shouldn't be expecting changes), making those awkward moves work is what we need to keep moving forward.
It's a different mindset for sure and will hopefully trickle down effectively over the next few weeks/months (I think there already is a noticeable contrast in thought in the last month).

 

[Ulevo]

How in the world does MK beat greninja?

just.....how?

even optimistically it's even.

I think it is even, but could potentially be in Meta Knight's favor. The 'perks' Greninja has in that match up are not as signficant as players make them out to be.

Does Tyrant have any Megaman experience at all? Surprised me he considers it a bad matchup for MK. Like Megaman doesn't do awful in it but I don't see how he wins it legitimately.

I honestly want to know other MK mains' input on this

Meta Knight likely has an advantage in this match up. Mega Man's recovery is very exploitable, and Meta Knight has the mobility on the ground and in the air to stay out of range of pellets until an opening occurs. Pellets and Needles have very different intent. Pellets provide protection and stuff out options. Needles dictate the pace of neutral and force approaches. This is why Meta Knight has a much easier time with Pellets. They do not force a reaction from Meta Knight because they do not command the same zone of space as quickly.

Interestingly enough I have been talking with Tech about the Luigi match up lately and we both agree it is arduous. Abadango's opinions seem to be in line with this.

 

[Megamang]

What are the characters we currently believe to be -1 against shiek, at the worst?

I have Lucario (Not even, but totally doable), Rosalina? ZSS? Cloud? Diddy Kong... I'm thinking there must be more, but im thinking maybe not.

Also, what is a good character for footsies/grounded battles, not named Ryu? I've come to the conclusion I suck horribly at this game, but I'd like another character to mess around with, preferably one who has a fighting chance in a region with dozens of shieks.

How does Cloud do vs Shiek? I remember we thought it was terrible at the beginning, but I think Cloud should be able to avoid gimping enough to make his aerial trades worthwhile. Idk.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cloud bodies Sheik on stage its kinda laughable.

Bayo has good footsies mainly due to conversion off dtilt, utilt and first hit of fair.

Diddy has good footsies. Dtilt converts to alot of stuff. Fair is damn solid poke.

Rosa of course is a goddess of footsies. That dtilt. DK and Bowser but they have other flaws.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think it is even, but could potentially be in Meta Knight's favor. The 'perks' Greninja has in that match up are not as signficant as players make them out to be.



Meta Knight likely has an advantage in this match up. Mega Man's recovery is very exploitable, and Meta Knight has the mobility on the ground and in the air to stay out of range of pellets until an opening occurs. Pellets and Needles have very different intent. Pellets provide protection and stuff out options. Needles dictate the pace of neutral and force approaches. This is why Meta Knight has a much easier time with Pellets. They do not force a reaction from Meta Knight because they do not command the same zone of space as quickly.

Interestingly enough I have been talking with Tech about the Luigi match up lately and we both agree it is arduous. Abadango's opinions seem to be in line with this.

Well now you need to tell me. My experience usually ranges from pretty close to me giving them the beat down.

 

[Peppermint1201]

New patch kills replays. Let's go boys

 

[Gunla]

It could be a bugfix patch ala the Diddy one. If there are balance changes, we'll get to them in due time.

 

[Nobie]

This might be a "Poor Zero" moment. "FINALLY I can release my tier list!"

Nintendo: lol here's a patch

 

[sedrf]

I doubt anything is in it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Cloud Uair seems to do 12% instead of 13% now. Still kills off the top fairly well.

Limit Side-B appears unchanged (huehuehuehue)

 

[Ghostbone]

MK IS DEAD
WHAT DID WE TELL YOU GUYS

 

[Yonder]

Cloud Uair seems to do 12% instead of 13% now. Still kills off the top fairly well.

Limit Side-B appears unchanged (huehuehuehue)

A mod said this also on the 1.1.5 update.

Obviosly negligible, but hopefully a precursor for bigger buffs and nerfs to be discovered.

 

[Peppermint1201]

MK IS DEAD
WHAT DID WE TELL YOU GUYS

I'm gonna wait 12 hours for

| No Changes | 99% Confirmed

 

[san.]

What I found so far:

Cloud uair 13->12 confirmed

Corrin nair 8->7, sourspot 6.5->5.5(?)
Corrin uair 10->9

Check the DLC characters mostly before other characters.

 

[NotLiquid]

Really, really wonder how well Bayonetta survived this update. A patch this early can almost be seen as way too reactionary.

 

[Tri Knight]

Well, I've already seen people claims that some characters have changed... last character patch for the road I guess. Sensing Cloud and Bayo nerfs.

 

[IsmaR]

Waiting for the preliminary thread to go up but

Samus f-tilt - 8%/9% (angled up) tipper > 10%/11% (angled up) tipper

testing if hit/hurtboxes were tweaked at all

edit:

Samus N-air - 8%/7% (front hit/back hit) > 10%/9% (front hit/back hit)

ZSS N-air - 10% > 8%

lol

 

[FlynnCL]

I got all excited that they may have fixed Falco's jab, but nope...

 

[Solfiner]

Welp, Sheik nerf cries are gonna continue for a while longer. Sorry guys.