Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

When discussing Falco's neutral, I, and I'd like to believe most people discussing Falco, don't have very many illusions about the character. Is he as good as Fox? Certainly not, nowhere even close (though I still think Falco has a decent Fox matchup). Is his neutral so amazing that any other character would want to trade theirs for his? Most top tiers (and high tiers) would prefer to stay as they are.

However, I do believe that Falco has the tools, dysfunctional or otherwise, to win fairly reliably, and that good tilts are simply a part of this. Just because another character is clearly better in a number of ways doesn't mean that the character in question cannot do anything or that their moves are bad. I know that this is all in relative terms, but to bring it back to the RPS = Neutral analogy, I feel like any character that can properly play RPS, regardless of how many other characters can throw out super rocks or whatever, is someone who has a fighting chance. It's not about the hidden potential of the character so much as thinking that a character is never completely out of the running. I don't like the idea of the actual merits of other characters are downplayed and denigrated unnecessarily, even when there are superior choices.

Super bad matchups suck, and most people rightfully would prefer to avoid them or just not have to play them (bracket luck, all of the players of that character are inexperienced in your area, switching characters, etc.). Someone who's tired of getting demolished has all the incentive in the world to eke out every advantage they can. That's why we use our preferred controller with our preferred control scheme. That's why we counterpick stages.

That being said, I think at some point when we talk about the idea of "competition," to what extent is it "winning the tournament" or is it "proving you're the best?" I don't mean that in a scrub sort of way where one guy played "more honorably," but more referencing the fact that I've seen some people complain that their character has "too many even matchups."

It's one thing to have a bad matchup that incentivizes you to switch to another character, but when your character does fine against the rest of the cast but that's still not enough, you want the character who just stomps on everyone else, there's this kind of disconnect between the two sides of competition. I'm not saying that those who want to do everything in their power to have the best "stuff" are wrong for doing so. If you want to win it all and your character goes 60:40 at least with everyone else, then of course the odds fall in your favor by choosing that character. But just the idea that even matchups aren't good enough just gives me a rather confused feeling.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The root of all evil.

Whenever a substantial amount of cash is involved, people will do anything to tip the odds in their favour. Having lots of even matchups is troublesome for these people because it means they cannot rely on innate character advantages to overcome
potentially more skilled opponents.

 

[BunbUn129]

Well, the other part of the general spiel:
are you hoping for or pretending there's something that is not there?

Originally today, I was going to post about how Falco is probably one of the worst characters in the game despite everything you think is an alright. And that's because having a completely dysfunctional kit is not remedied by having a good move or two (like forward and down tilt). He has ground moves which can out button other characters but close to nothing else in terms of ability to force that dynamic while at the same time is barely rewarded for it.

To expect there's significantly more potential there coinciding with putting people down for giving up the dream early or moping about with "what a shame, with that attitude this character will never be proven to definitively suck be a lot better than current perceptions!" (not every bad character will experience nail-in-the-coffin anecdotes like Shulk did) does not belong in competitive discourse.

Not denying potential may exist or that optimization, new ideas, or an astounding high level player will never come along or that it ISN'T WORTH TRYING ANYWAY. But even when you have the likes of Reflex playing (and winning with) Pokemon Trainer in Brawl there was never a strong belief that the character(s) still weren't awful.

Words of wisdom! Someone else actually admits that Falco is a terrible character. Easily bottom 15.

Having decent combo and CQC games aren't going to compensate for a ****ty neutral, horrible disadvantage state due to space animal physics and a linear recovery, weak advantage state past low percents because Falco can't give chase very well and because DI is a thing, and a hard time KOing.

You wanna know how bad Falco is? I could give a long, detailed explanation about why a character I've been maining in two other games for years has dropped from grace like a stone.

But let's keep things short: imagine .

Now take away his great mobility, worsen his damage racking game, butcher his camping and neutral games, remove his KO set-ups, cut his recovery in half (and keep in mind Fox's recovery is already meh, lol, foxes can apparently fly better than blue chickens), and voila! You have uncovered , a travesty of character design.

Note: to be fair, Falco's character design was always questionable, so maybe I should give him a pass? Maybe not. The only thing worse than a character who is dominant due to questionable game design is a character who sucks due to questionable game design. anyone? I'd definitely put Falco in the same group.

Like Ffamran said, Smash 4 Falco is Ganondorf if he was slightly more viable.

And the addition of is more rip to Falco. You know, because we needed to make sure Falco wasn't OP.

I mean, can you believe this train-wreck was and still is a terrifying force in another game? at least you're not being nerfed any time soon, my good boy!

And yet got nerfed ten times harder in the transition and is still top-tier, and hasn't gotten nearly as many buffs over updates. I know patches did an overall admirable job (), but some decisions (or lack thereof) were hilariously dumb ().

 

[Luco]

I don't think money has too much to do with people's ambitions when it comes to smash. I've rarely taken money home from a tournament going "LOOK AT ALL THESE DOLLARS I CAN NOW SPEND (that I would have accrued most of from a day of work that I spent 4 hours less time doing than a tournament)" - I think for most players it's about the prestige, the ego. So many people think starry-eyed about being on their PR or being able to call themselves a 'threat' or 'top x' (seriously the amount of people I've wowed by talking about smash is incredible). It helps that smash is SUCH a prolific game, such that you can pretty much walk up to a random person on the side of the street and tell them you're top 10 in your state for smash and they'll be all over you (forever), asking whether you're winning tournaments every successive week (like my brother and friends do). It's a chance to be in the spotlight, and who doesn't want that?

I think this is why people strive to do better moreso than money - the only time I'd argue money comes into it is when you're getting thousands of dollars back for the total investment of going to that tournament took out of your budget, and even then you have to be pretty confident that you can actually get that 1st place in order to take home that money. For the vast majority of smashers, competition is too volatile to be in it for the money even if it could theoretically support you in life.

 

[HoSmash4]

One of Falco's main strengths is edgeguarding, in the game where edgeguarding is at its least effective.

 

[BunbUn129]

One of Falco's main strengths is edgeguarding, in the game where edgeguarding is at its least effective.

? Really?

Let's look at his aerials:

Up air: out of the question (duh)
Fair: frame 10, good knockback and duration
Bair: frame 5, insane power, but it has such low range and priority that it loses out to most recovery moves
Nair: frame 3, decently strong
Dair: frame 16, not very strong, good luck hitting someone with this. The only people who try this are the ones who really want to relive Melee (including myself when I mained him)

Fair and nair are decent, but that's about it, and even then, most top-tiers will survive with their horizontal recoveries. Bair can be used for trumping. He can't really trap opponents on the ledge because he lacks a move with extended duration and coverage.

Regardless, Falco's edge-guarding is meh. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because actually getting opponents offstage is a challenge in itself when Falco gets outneutraled by most characters. And Falco's own recovery is mediocre, too, so he can't stall out for very long.

And Falco's edge-guarding only becomes worse when you consider exist. Heck, even has an arguably stronger presence offstage.

Gamegenie222 , my god, how did I forget to mention that they doubled the start-up on his dash attack? "Lolz, nerf lasers and worsen his up-close game, too!" #gamebalanceftw

Meanwhile, is sitting comfortably with the best dash attack in the game. :D

 

[Gamegenie222]

All these falco post are making me LOL but it's spot on and needed. I'm mainly a falco player in this game(not much use as of late for Robin) and from brawl and some of the stuff makes me mad on some stuff also Falco having a 8 frame standing grab and dash attack

 

[Nobie]

? Really?

Let's look at his aerials:

Up air: out of the question (duh)
Fair: frame 10, good knockback and duration
Bair: frame 5, insane power, but it has such low range and priority that it loses out to most recovery moves
Nair: frame 3, decently strong
Dair: frame 16, not very strong, good luck hitting someone with this. The only people who try this are the ones who really want to relive Melee (including myself when I mained him)

Fair and nair are decent, but that's about it, and even then, most top-tiers will survive with their horizontal recoveries. Bair can be used for trumping.

Regardless, Falco's edge-guarding is meh. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because actually getting opponents offstage is a challenge in itself when Falco gets outneutraled by most characters. And Falco's own recovery is mediocre, too, so he can't stall out for very long.

And Falco's edge-guarding only becomes worse when you consider exist. Heck, even has an arguably stronger presence offstage.

You keep saying that Falco's bair is frame 5, but it's actually frame 4, which is tied for the fastest bairs in the game (Sheik, Mega Man).

Also, how can Bair have low priority when the move does 13%? What in the world is it losing to?

EDIT: IT ALSO HAS 8 ACTIVE FRAMES AND AUTOCANCELS. How is this not an amazing move?

Falco also has an incredibly good vertical game that lets him drop down from the ledge and immediately spring up with the aerial of his choice to cover ledge options. Those "mad ups" as the kids call them also possibly allow Falco to avoid getting platform camped, because even the highest platforms aren't safe from him.

I keep hearing about how Falco is so slow that he can't do anything, but then I recalled this match between Nairo's Falco and Mr. E's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOT774xmIqw

It's a few months old at this point so maybe less relevant, and Nairo is obviously a better player than Mr. E, but Nairo isn't even a Falco main and not once during this match is Falco's speed so absolutely crippling that he cannot close in on Sheik, THE character that people complain is the one whose ability to camp and run away ruins matchups. Maybe Mr. E wasn't playing the match right, and he needed to just run away more, but there's nothing to indicate that Falco's low run speed is a death sentence.

 

[TDK]

There's 58 characters in this game, There's no reason that you should give up on who you like in favour of someone like Shiek, because it's extremely difficult to go back to your old character.

Ganondorf has a huge offstage presence because he kills so early and has two of the best spikes in the game.

 

[BunbUn129]

You keep saying that Falco's bair is frame 5, but it's actually frame 4, which is tied for the fastest bairs in the game (Sheik, Mega Man).

Also, how can Bair have low priority when the move does 13%? What in the world is it losing to?

Have you seen how tiny the hitbox is? Heck, Fire Fox of all moves will often beat out Falco's bair.

Technically speaking, it has good priority because of the damage.

But if we looked at priority as in "how often move x will beat out other moves," Falco's bair has surprisingly poor priority.

But none of that matters. Because you can't edge-guard effectively if ya get qerb stomped in neutral by the viable portion of the cast.

And can we talk about how Falco is ten times more vulnerable to edge-guarding himself? I'd love to discuss the wonders of Falco's iconic recovery issues.

 

[L9999]

I think it's about time we define who is bottom 10, because this main defending of "my characters is not bottom 10" is pointless. Not only those people don't say who they think is bottom 10, someone HAS to be bottom 10 by logic and there are characters that are obviously worse than others, don't you dare come with "Smash 4 is balanced" Going with the obvious . Six down. Edit. 7 down.

 

[Nobie]

Have you seen how tiny the hitbox is? Heck, Fire Fox of all moves will often beat out Falco's bair.

Technically speaking, it has good priority because of the damage.

But if we looked at priority as in "how often move x will beat out other moves," Falco's bair has surprisingly poor priority.

It has a smaller hitbox BECAUSE it's a frame 4 killer bair. It's designed to beat out other moves before they even have a chance to come out. It's not trading with them, it's actually just hitting them before they can hit back.

Mega Man's frame 4 bair is disjointed as hell, but his penalty is that it has a ton of landing lag, and is only a decent kill move rather than a really good one.

 

[adom4]

There's 58 characters in this game, There's no reason that you should give up on who you like in favour of someone like Shiek, because it's extremely difficult to go back to your old character.

Ganondorf has a huge offstage presence because he kills so early and has two of the best spikes in the game.

Well the wizkick spike is kinda gimmicky & usually not as good of an options as his aerials, but it's satisfying as hell when it works lol.
Also Ganon offstage game is great not just because of Dair, all of his aerials have a good use offstage, Uair & Bair end quickly enough to still be able to punish airdodges.

 

[BunbUn129]

I think it's about time we define who is bottom 10, because this main defending of "my characters is not bottom 10" is pointless. Not only those people don't say who they think is bottom 10, someone HAS to be bottom 10 by logic and there are characters that are obviously worse than others, don't you dare come with "Smash 4 is balanced" Going with the obvious . Six down.

Throw in .

Re: Falco issues. I find it amusing and sad how some people are trying so hard to argue in defense of Falco. What's so hard to see about why he's trash and easily bottom 15? Good frame data and range are undermined by his myriad of issues.

To sum up Falco in one sentence: here is a character who has a lackluster neutral game and is punished severely due to his physics and recovery, and struggles to KO, while his good frame data, decent range, and passable combo ability are not nearly enough to compensate, resulting in a character whose tools lack synergy, and whose gamplan is dysfunctional and performed better by a number of characters.

I mained this character for 7 months and deluded myself into thinking he had hidden potential. Now this character has had more than a year since release, and even with a ton of buffs (most of which failed to address his issues and only gave him unnecessary changes), he had not shown any signs of potential.

I don't get why people are still defending Falco. The fact that he has such low rep and results is a clear sign that he cannot succeed on the fundamental level.

 

[Nobie]

Throw in .

Re: Falco issues. I find it amusing and sad how some people are trying so hard to argue in defense of Falco. What's so hard to see about why he's trash and easily bottom 15? Good frame data and range are undermined by his myriad of issues.

To sum up Falco in one sentence: here is a character who has a lackluster neutral game and is punished severely due to his physics and recovery, and struggles to KO, while his good frame data, decent range, and passable combo ability are not nearly enough to compensate, resulting in a character whose tools lack synergy, and whose gamplan is dysfunctional and performed better by a number of characters.

I mained this character for 7 months and deluded myself into thinking he had hidden potential. Now this character has had more than a year since release, and even with a ton of buffs (most of which failed to address his issues and only gave him unnecessary changes), he had not shown any signs of potential.

I don't get why people are still defending Falco. The fact that he has such low rep and results is a clear sign that he cannot succeed on the fundamental level.

I never denied Falco being one of the worse characters in the game. He might very well be Bottom 15 like you say, or bottom 20 or whatever. However, there's a difference between saying he's bottom 15 because his tools aren't as good or don't synergize as well as the characters above him and completely downplaying his abilities to the point that you won't even acknowledge his strengths.

First, the idea that his neutral is just so awful that it's "non-existent" completely contradicts the fact that he has good range and frame data. I know that mobility is also a component of neutral, and in a platform-based fighter like Smash it's significant, but I honestly believe that no character who sports both good range and frame data can possibly be considered as having abysmal neutral. Not to mention, while his run is terrible his walk is really good... top 10 in the game! In terms of spacing, i.e. neutral, having a good walk is SUCH a huge asset.

Then you go on about how is bair is nothing special when it's one of the best bairs in the ENTIRE GAME. He might lack the horizontal aerial mobility to truly exploit it, but he certainly has the vertical mobility to do so, and no matter how lacking Falco might be in other areas I find it strange to deny the slew of amazing qualities that move has.

This is what I mean when I say that people will be so down on their characters that they will actually begin to just poo-poo even a character's impressive qualities.

 

[BunbUn129]

impressive qualities.

The only thing that Falco has that's close to "impressive" is a frame 4 bair that kills, but even that is offset by the small hitbox, and the fact that it's so damn easy to predict and avoid because it's his only safe KOing move.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The only thing that Falco has that's close to "impressive" is a frame 4 bair that kills, but even that is offset by the small hitbox, and the fact that it's so damn easy to predict and avoid because it's his only safe KOing move.

Not his F3 Nair that also eats airdodges? (Also his USmash kills earlier or around the same time as Fox's now and also has invincibility on the legs now, literally Somersault Shell).

You're doing exactly what he said is bad to do tbh. Falco's frame data and moveset are what I WOULD call impressive. His problem is movement speed IMO, which is a problem I am very familiar with, look at who I secondary.

 

[Deleted member]

I never denied Falco being one of the worse characters in the game. He might very well be Bottom 15 like you say, or bottom 20 or whatever. However, there's a difference between saying he's bottom 15 because his tools aren't as good or don't synergize as well as the characters above him and completely downplaying his abilities to the point that you won't even acknowledge his strengths.

First, the idea that his neutral is just so awful that it's "non-existent" completely contradicts the fact that he has good range and frame data. I know that mobility is also a component of neutral, and in a platform-based fighter like Smash it's significant, but I honestly believe that no character who sports both good range and frame data can possibly be considered as having abysmal neutral. Not to mention, while his run is terrible his walk is really good... top 10 in the game! In terms of spacing, i.e. neutral, having a good walk is SUCH a huge asset.

Then you go on about how is bair is nothing special when it's one of the best bairs in the ENTIRE GAME. He might lack the horizontal aerial mobility to truly exploit it, but he certainly has the vertical mobility to do so, and no matter how lacking Falco might be in other areas I find it strange to deny the slew of amazing qualities that move has.

This is what I mean when I say that people will be so down on their characters that they will actually begin to just poo-poo even a character's impressive qualities.

Agreed with this whole post. Even with outright bad characters, people can be very tunnel-visioned and not even bring up their positive qualities even when it's conducive to the discussion overall. I've been guilty of this in the past myself, but I wish more people wouldn't fall into doing that sort of thing.

I think it's about time we define who is bottom 10, because this main defending of "my characters is not bottom 10" is pointless. Not only those people don't say who they think is bottom 10, someone HAS to be bottom 10 by logic and there are characters that are obviously worse than others, don't you dare come with "Smash 4 is balanced" Going with the obvious . Six down.

I would also consider to be bottom 10, as much as it hurts to say that.

Contrary to what most believe I actually don't think or (1111) are bottom 10. I don't know who else I'd even consider because I don't believe is in that same realm or after 1.1.4.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Real talk. If you're really frustrated and nearly-venting about a character, I think it's best to put distance away from them and like, not talk about them ever until you feel like you can discuss them without trying to go in detail about how much they suck and calling them awful and ignoring legitimate strengths that the character has and stuff.

 

[L9999]

Agreed with this whole post. Even with outright bad characters, people can be very tunnel-visioned and not even bring up their positive qualities even when it's conducive to the discussion overall. I've been guilty of this in the past myself, but I wish more people wouldn't fall into doing that sort of thing.



I would also consider to be bottom 10, as much as it hurts to say that. Contrary to what most believe I actually don't think or (1111) are bottom 10. I don't know who else I'd even consider because I don't believe is in that same realm or after 1.1.4.

I can't believe I forgot DDD. He is unmemorably bad....Palutena and Samus have the results to prove they are not complete trash, Salem got 25th at EVO with Lucina, and she wasn't that good back then. Mii Gunner had ROM doing well in stacked tournaments.

 

[BunbUn129]

Not his F3 Nair that also eats airdodges? (Also his USmash kills earlier or around the same time as Fox's now and also has invincibility on the legs now, literally Somersault Shell).

You're doing exactly what he said is bad to do tbh. Falco's frame data and moveset are what I WOULD call impressive. His problem is movement speed IMO, which is a problem I am very familiar with, look at who I secondary.

Never mind that Falco's up smash is incredibly unsafe and can't be comboed into at higher percents. A frame 3 nair that eats air dodges isn't gonna be moving a character up tiers any time soon! :D

Falco is living proof that good frame data /= automatic viability

 

[Shaya]

BunbUn129 you need to chill. It may not be the intention but you're coming off excessively aggressive.

Falco's back air, as good as it's KO power, auto cancel, landing lag, duration and start up are
(holy crap if any of this applied to any move... like marth's fair~)
AMAZING

but his range and hitbox sizes are very poor.
It's numbers are fantastic... but Sheik's bair is a lot better for the reason of it's fantastic horizontal and vertical range. When it killed it was broken.

Falco's ground game is bad because of an awful dash attack and 'broken' jab (why was this never fixed?).
The really terrible mobility, both on the ground and air makes his abilities overtly subpar.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Never mind that Falco's up smash is incredibly unsafe and can't be comboed into. A frame 3 nair that eats air dodges isn't gonna be moving a character up tiers any time soon! :D

Who was arguing about his tier position?

I don't think we can have a discussion if you're not willing to accept positives and like, standard discussion so you should probably take Sneak's advice and ignore Falco discussion.

 

[Deleted member]

Never mind that Falco's up smash is incredibly unsafe and can't be comboed into. A frame 3 nair that eats air dodges isn't gonna be moving a character up tiers any time soon! :D

Your attitude isn't really helping.

Nobody here is trying to argue that Falco isn't a low-tier character, just that he has rather good tools at his disposal. He does has flaws such as a mediocre movement and a poor neutral no doubt, but you're making him out like he's irredeemable.

 

[BunbUn129]

@BombUn129 you need to chill. It may not be the intention but you're coming off excessively aggressive.

Falco's back air, as good as it's KO power, auto cancel, landing lag, duration and start up are
(holy crap if any of this applied to any move... like marth's fair~)
AMAZING

but his range and hitbox sizes are very poor.
It's numbers are fantastic... but Sheik's bair is a lot better for the reason of it's fantastic horizontal and vertical range. When it killed it was broken.

Falco's ground game is bad because of an awful dash attack and 'broken' jab (why was this never fixed?).
The really terrible mobility, both on the ground and air makes his abilities overtly subpar.

MORE WISDOM! SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDS!

No, seriously, at least you're acknowledging that Falco's few strengths are undermined and negated by every damn weakness he has. Ganon syndrome, anyone?

People are complaining that I don't give Falco credit for his strengths. Yet I've mentioned that he has good frame data, decent range and combos several times already. And in more than one post, I explained why these didn't mean jack**** considering his weaknesses, especially getting shut down in neutral by most characters.

Falco's back air in Melee was overall a better move, and debatably Brawl.

 

[wedl!!]

Real talk. If you're really frustrated and nearly-venting about a character, I think it's best to put distance away from them and like, not talk about them ever until you feel like you can discuss them without trying to go in detail about how much they suck and calling them awful and ignoring legitimate strengths that the character has and stuff.

Dog I dropped Peach like 4 months ago and I still get angry when I talk about her

like, ok, this character has high tier damage and frame traps on shield and some movement mixups but it's just a handful of good tools on a not very good character.

her mu spread is kinda garbage. she gets shut down in neutral pretty easily. all the new DLC give her a really hard time (lol swords, lol side Bs). diddy and meta knight are really difficult, possible -3s. sheik and zss are hard. she loses random mus to characters that are supposedly "below her" ( although Peach is still better, ,). there are a handful of ok matchups against good characters (namely Pika and Sonic, at least IMO) but it's not enough to make her matchup spread as "high tier" as people claim.

 

[TTTTTsd]

MORE WISDOM! SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDS!

No, seriously, at least you're acknowledging that Falco's few strengths are undermined and negated by every damn weakness he has. Ganon syndrome, anyone?

Falco's back air in Melee was overall a better move, and debatably Brawl.

I would actually like to see Smash 4 Bair in Melee because Shine > Turnaround Bair would be really really strong on hit. Gotta love Frame 1 conversions!

Speaking of moves that got better and worse, I might do something like this for Doc. I actually think Doc's Bair is straight up better than it has ever been in this game.

 

[ARISTOS]

clearly has some good tools, it's just stuck on awful mobility specs, similar to

I think it's about time we define who is bottom 10, because this main defending of "my characters is not bottom 10" is pointless. Not only those people don't say who they think is bottom 10, someone HAS to be bottom 10 by logic and there are characters that are obviously worse than others, don't you dare come with "Smash 4 is balanced" Going with the obvious . Six down. Edit. 7 down.

Coming up with a bottom 10 is IMO, not that important. More focus should be on putting together characters of similar viability. I think you've already put together the characters I would deem as relatively irreparable. Anyone else who comes to mind () I wouldn't group with the bunch above, as these guys do have qualities I would put above those of the first group.

 

[Ffamran]

Never mind that Falco's up smash is incredibly unsafe and can't be comboed into at higher percents.
Falco is living proof that good frame data /= automatic viability

His Up Smash is safer than Fox's thanks to its lower recovery of 30 frames to Fox's 45 frames.

Falco's back air in Melee was overall a better move, and debatably Brawl.

Bair and Dair were only good because of Shine. They'd be utterly useless and just two moves like every other move that can't be setup. Would Fox's Uair be any good if his U-throw couldn't confirm it in Melee? It'd just be another Uair that happens to do 18%. Brawl Bair couldn't be confirmed either and it being nerfed to 13% clean instead of Melee's 15% clean and only having average knockback added to the fact Falco couldn't kill reliably. Dair was also frankly useless compared to Melee 'cause no Shine and no other guaranteed setups on everyone and when it counted.

All moves have the potential to be good, but setups infinitely make them better. Falcon Dive, Falcon Punch, and the Knee were amazing in 64 and Melee because you could set them up. Now look at where they are. Only Knee is somewhat useful, but pales in comparison to Melee's due to a lack of reliable setups.

As people have said, you need to calm the **** down. In other words, stop playing this game, get off of this forum, and do something productive. You're reminding me when I was a little ***** who ******* about everything Falco. You're damn sure I'm not proud of those moments. That's why I chose to leave this site and actually do something instead of being a little twit.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

His Up Smash is safer than Fox's thanks to its lower recovery of 30 frames to Fox's 45 frames.


Bair and Dair were only good because of Shine. They'd be utterly useless and just two moves like every other move that can't be setup. Would Fox's Uair be any good if his U-throw couldn't confirm it in Melee? It'd just be another Uair that happens to do 18%. Brawl Bair couldn't be confirmed either and it being nerfed to 13% clean instead of Melee's 15% clean and only having average knockback added to the fact Falco couldn't kill reliably. Dair was also frankly useless compared to Melee 'cause no Shine and no other guaranteed setups on everyone and when it counted.

All moves have the potential to be good, but setups infinitely make them better. Falcon Dive, Falcon Punch, and the Knee were amazing in 64 and Melee because you could set them up. Now look at where they are. Only Knee is somewhat useful, but pales in comparison to Melee's due to a lack of reliable setups.

As people have said, you need to calm the **** down. In other words, stop playing this game, get off of this forum, and do something productive. You're reminding me when I was a little ***** who ******* about everything Falco. You're damn sure I'm not proud of those moments. That's why I chose to leave this site and actually do something instead of being a little twit.

Ummm wow

 

[williamsga555]

Late to the discussion, but picking a main is very hard for a large amount of people. There are a lot of things to consider before dedicating yourself to a particular character (or two, or a few more, depending on how strongly you believe in CPing characters). It took me until about March or so of the game's launch before I decided on Dedede, and even then I experimented with a lot of characters over the summer (and still do).

I actually spent a long time going over a number of different categories of how to choose my main. Keep in mind that this process started before I had access to a competitive scene of any kind (and obviously I had to go through this process again once I did discover the tournament scene).

1. What character do I like the best? -This was a question of representation, not gameplay. For me it was simple: I wanted it to be a Kirby character or maybe Game & Watch.
2. What fighter do I like the best? -This was a question of gameplay. I discovered pretty quickly that trap-based characters and those with disjoints were generally the most fun for me. Dedede, PAC-MAN, Bowser Jr., and Robin were very early candidates here.
3. What fighter fits my style the best? -Again, gameplay, but this time focusing on function over preference. I found that my style meshed best with a more defensive playstyle with relatively simple execution (I'm just not very good at pressing buttons, all in all).
   
4. Most importantly, what do I want to accomplish? -A question of how seriously I'm going to take the game, how far I want to go, and so on. I knew very early on, even after discovering how fun tournaments were, that I wasn't going to be extremely dedicated. The pressure to pick a top tier for the sake of competing isn't terribly relevant in my situation since I don't have the drive to compete at a higher level. I stick to my locals, where the competition is good, but stakes are low (think my last entry fee for singles AND doubles was a combined $6 or something).

All these questions likely seem really obvious and straight-forward, but it can be really difficult to find someone that fits all of these criteria for you as an individual. There might not even be one single character that completely fits...in which case I'd recommend either dual-maining or making a compromise somewhere (likely Question 1, but you should weigh the significance of these yourself, naturally).

Just don't try to force something that very clearly doesn't fit with you. I could never be a Sheik player, even if I wanted to play a high tier (I don't like her as a character or a fighter). I could never be a Duck Hunt player, even if I love trap-based play (that dog is just too hard, man). I could never be a Ryu player, even if I think his gameplay is incredibly interesting and rewarding (the mental game with Ryu is far beyond my level, and I'm so bad at pressing buttons that I can't control him without putting in silly amounts of work).

Don't ignore your limitations, but don't let them discourage you either. Experiment enough and something will click. The underlying goal of the game should be to enjoy it, and there are plenty of characters that can fulfill that role for you while granting the tools necessary to reach your goals.

Just remember, fellow low-tier mains, that our selection doesn't give us some special pass to complain about how bad our characters are. Point out our flaws all day, but you can't use them as an excuse. Not as a good one, anyway.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ummm wow

This thread is getting a little too real for me lol

 

[Xandercosm]

Things are really gettin' heated around here, aren't they? Don't **** on Falco. He has more to him than just bad mobility. Every character has more depth than just what can be summed up in a one paragraph rant post.

 

[Rizen]

Speaking of Falco having options, Kato did some good stuff at come on and ban 51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWo8GORDgaI&list=PL5n6M_nMn9OPeEFlHRwoVnjmNfI4Hn1T2&index=12
worth a watch.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

While falco does have his flaws, his combo game is too good to keep him out of top 15. He is low tier, however

 

[Vipermoon]

His Up Smash is safer than Fox's thanks to its lower recovery of 30 frames to Fox's 45 frames.


Bair and Dair were only good because of Shine. They'd be utterly useless and just two moves like every other move that can't be setup. Would Fox's Uair be any good if his U-throw couldn't confirm it in Melee? It'd just be another Uair that happens to do 18%. Brawl Bair couldn't be confirmed either and it being nerfed to 13% clean instead of Melee's 15% clean and only having average knockback added to the fact Falco couldn't kill reliably. Dair was also frankly useless compared to Melee 'cause no Shine and no other guaranteed setups on everyone and when it counted.

All moves have the potential to be good, but setups infinitely make them better. Falcon Dive, Falcon Punch, and the Knee were amazing in 64 and Melee because you could set them up. Now look at where they are. Only Knee is somewhat useful, but pales in comparison to Melee's due to a lack of reliable setups.

As people have said, you need to calm the **** down. In other words, stop playing this game, get off of this forum, and do something productive. You're reminding me when I was a little ***** who ******* about everything Falco. You're damn sure I'm not proud of those moments. That's why I chose to leave this site and actually do something instead of being a little twit.

Fox's aerials in Melee are amazing! Uthrow or no Uthrow, Shine or no Shine. Yes, Uair would still be good. He still has other moves to confirm into it like Utilt/Dtilt/Nair/Usmash (lol) and even a landing Uair. Even so, is there a stronger Uair in that game? Maybe Bowser. That's it.

Brawl Fox Bair did 15%. Brawl Fox Dair was still frame 5, still did nearly 20%, and still had (I think) 12 frames of landing lag.

 

[G. Stache]

While falco does have his flaws, his combo game is too good to keep him out of top 15. He is low tier, however

I think I know what you're trying to say and I agree with it...but this sentence structure is bottom tier. You may want to edit it a bit.

Also, how good exactly is Falco's reflector? I hear people both praise and **** on it. Would it be usable as a poke/maybe a gtfo move?

 

[Solfiner]

I think it's important to focus on both negatives and positives regarding characters in this game, the only characters I would consider garbage are Puff and Zelda. Every other character has at least something going for them I feel like.

 

[Jamurai]

Token Mii Fighter defender here. I'd be very interested to hear how Swordfighter is "obviously" a bottom 10 character, considering no one plays (or rather, can play) them. Brawler I can accept though (assuming 1111).

Also I fail to see how a good combo game alone keeps a character out of bottom 15 (which seems very arbitrary). Damage racking is all well and good but if you can't get in and you can't kill then what's the point?

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As an aside, having just caught up on the last 4-5 pages. In supposedly the strictest thread on Smashboards in terms of moderation, which is meant to be for formal discussion only, how are reaction images and "lol this" etc. posts (or the technical term: ****posts) acceptable? Not to be a grumpy guts, but if you wanna show appreciation for a post, that is what the "Like" button is for. It clogs the thread less and keeps things on track.

Apologies if this is out of place but I feel something had to be said.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I was in class, sorry

 

[meleebrawler]

All this Falco talk, it makes me think of the many similarities between him and Luigi. He has weight over Falco but more importantly a midrange projectile that segues into close-quarters.

I think I know what you're trying to say and I agree with it...but this sentence structure is bottom tier. You may want to edit it a bit.

Also, how good exactly is Falco's reflector? I hear people both praise and **** on it. Would it be usable as a poke/maybe a gtfo move?

It's a solid poke but not enough to fill the gap in Falco's midrange. It doesn't have Accele-Reflector's speed nor Void Reflector's power.