Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Gamegenie222]

I think I know what you're trying to say and I agree with it...but this sentence structure is bottom tier. You may want to edit it a bit.

Also, how good exactly is Falco's reflector? I hear people both praise and **** on it. Would it be usable as a poke/maybe a gtfo move?

It's so so it's a frame 5 reflector with a chance to trip but it's unsafe on hit unless spaced and against slow characters and unsafe on whiff and shield and falco extends his hurtbox when he kicks the reflector so it limits it at a poke tool in scenarios where dash attack is too slow to punish a whiff. It's also treated as a projectile for some reason so falco dittos you can reflector a reflector or reflect it lol. Honestly wish it had a higher trip change so it can be used more as a poke outside of certain mu's and stealing jumps.

 

[L9999]

Token Mii Fighter defender here. I'd be very interested to hear how Swordfighter is "obviously" a bottom 10 character, considering no one plays (or rather, can play) them. Brawler I can accept though (assuming 1111).

Also I fail to see how a good combo game alone keeps a character out of bottom 15 (which seems very arbitrary). Damage racking is all well and good but if you can't get in and you can't kill then what's the point?

Swordfighter has all the qualities to be trash tier. His mobility is mediocre, his recovery is complete garbage, his attacks speed is sluggish, he struggles to kill and approach, his grab game is almost nonexistent, and he is easily juggled and comboed. He has good damage, punishes, and edgeguarding, but so does Lucina and she is way faster. And Mii Swordfghter has no rep as well. Trela dropped him 2 centuries ago and Nyani plays customs only.

 

[Deleted member]

Swordfighter has all the qualities to be trash tier. His mobility is mediocre, his recovery is complete garbage, his attacks speed is sluggish, he struggles to kill and approach, his grab game is almost nonexistent, and he is easily juggled and comboed. He has good damage, punishes, and edgeguarding, but so does Lucina and she is way faster.

Swordfighter has dthrow into fair or uair, and up throw combos into up tilt at low percents. That's definitely not what I'd call an "almost nonexistent" grab game. Swordfighter's grab is fast in of itself as well.

 

[[BROF]]

Falco's melee dair only good because of shine?
Are we talking about the same move with quick startup, safe on crossup shield, that combos into itself at most %, with a spike that stays out forever, a hitbox that reaches below him, and the contender for one of the best moves in the game? That dair? Only good because of shine? Bruh...

Talking about shine and smash4. Did Foxs shine buff ever amount to anything?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Swordfighter has all the qualities to be trash tier. His mobility is mediocre, his recovery is complete garbage, his attacks speed is sluggish, he struggles to kill and approach, his grab game is almost nonexistent, and he is easily juggled and comboed. He has good damage, punishes, and edgeguarding, but so does Lucina and she is way faster. And Mii Swordfghter has no rep as well. Trela dropped him 2 centuries ago and Nyani plays customs only.

Are you talking about the 1111 medium?

 

[BunbUn129]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...haracter-rankings.429320/page-3#post-20995282

From the above link, this is a rating of characters' neutral games (this is still in the works, guys, so take some placements with a grain of salt):

Some players just don't understand footsies.

The first thing that stood out is Marth's and Lucina's placements, even though they generally have less safety than the other characters in their tier.

Guys, honest question, how good is 's neutral game?

This one about Meta Knight cracked me up: "That leaves us with his only two real options: Dash attack and Dash Grab. Completely ignoring how insane the punish is if he lands either of these, they really suck."

Sounds a bit like, "If you completely ignore the speed, range, safety and combo potential of Sheik's forward aerial, it sucks because it only does 5% damage."

There are quite a few posters there saying MK should move down to 2 and a 1/2 stars, which is hilariously misguided considering most top MK players, notably Tyrant, have said that his neutral game is above average relative to the whole cast.

P.S. sorry about the Falco rant (I often have a strong tone when I write, so I may come off as ranting when I really don't mean to).

 

[Yikarur]

why would anyone talk about 1111 if thats a dumb arbitrary ruleset, only enforced by uneducated TO's? (Europe masterrace)

 

[Dinoman96]

why would anyone talk about 1111 if thats a dumb arbitrary ruleset, only enforced by uneducated TO's? (Europe masterrace)

Because, like it or not, that's the standard for Miis right now in most places and is the EVO ruleset this year.

 

[LancerStaff]

Mii Swordfighter's frame data looks pretty good according to Kuroganehammer. Dtilt comes out f5 and has a faf of 20, while Lucina's is f7 and faf of 24 and only does .5% more, for example.

 

[Yikarur]

That "neutral tier list" looks so arbitrary. I hope it won't take up thousand pages of discussions, because that would be like answering to Radical Larry imo

Mii Swordfighter is alright. Pretty underrated for obvious reasons, because no (1111) player base + unwarranted worst character stigma in the past= biased uneducated opinions.

He is still low tier but he is most likely not bottom5.

 

[Solfiner]

Shulk's neutral is hard to judge because of Monado arts. In Speed he has the best walk and movement speed in the game, in Buster he does really good shield stun etc. If we're talking vanilla Shulk then his neutral is pretty lacking, but you want to avoid being vanilla as much as possible so eh.

 

[Xandercosm]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...haracter-rankings.429320/page-3#post-20995282

From the above link, this is a rating of characters' neutral games:

View attachment 100250



Some players just don't understand footsies.

The first thing that stood out is Marth's and Lucina's placements, even though they generally have less safety than the other characters in their tier.

Guys, honest question, how good is 's neutral game?

This one about Meta Knight cracked me up: "That leaves us with his only two real options: Dash attack and Dash Grab. Completely ignoring how insane the punish is if he lands either of these, they really suck."

Sounds a bit like, "If you completely ignore the speed, range, safety and combo potential of Sheik's forward aerial, it sucks because it only does 5% damage."

There are quite a few posters there saying MK should move down to 2 and a 1/2 stars, which is hilariously misguided considering most top MK players, notably Tyrant, have said that his neutral game is above average relative to the whole cast.

P.S. sorry about the Falco rant (I often have a strong tone when I write, so I may come off as ranting when I really don't mean to).

MK is my secondary and I can say I 100% agree with you. I think MK's neutral should be rated in the 3.5 star category. It definitely isn't the best, considering the fact that he doesn't have spammable aerials. However, it is really good due to the fact that he has such safe punish options with MASSIVE reward. Plus, dash attack and dash grab are amazing. I have no idea what that guy was talking about.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Falco's melee dair only good because of shine?
Are we talking about the same move with quick startup, safe on crossup shield, that combos into itself at most %, with a spike that stays out forever, a hitbox that reaches below him, and the contender for one of the best moves in the game? That dair? Only good because of shine? Bruh...

Talking about shine and smash4. Did Foxs shine buff ever amount to anything?

Well you can use it to stage spike now or send them far enough if they have a bad recovery, and it forces a really hard to tech knockdown at around 100%, leaving you with a get up read. That's about it.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's so so it's a frame 5 reflector with a change to trip but it's unsafe on hit unless spaced and against slow characters and unsafe on whiff and shield and falco extends his hurtbox when he kicks the reflector so it limits it at a poke tool in scenarios where dash attack is too slow to punish a whiff. It's also treated as a projectile for some reason so falco dittos you can reflector a reflector or reflect it lol. Honestly wish it had a higher trip change so it can be used more as a poke outside of certain mu's and stealing jumps.

I'm going to try this reflect reflector in training, I have to see it.

Higher chance of trip would be cool. Also, maybe give it a cancel into jump and vertical knockback.

 

[Tri Knight]

clearly has some good tools, it's just stuck on awful mobility specs, similar to



Coming up with a bottom 10 is IMO, not that important. More focus should be on putting together characters of similar viability. I think you've already put together the characters I would deem as relatively irreparable. Anyone else who comes to mind () I wouldn't group with the bunch above, as these guys do have qualities I would put above those of the first group.

I agree. Of the ones you listed I think all of them are solid mid tiers, easy.

Edit: with the exception of Roy... I don't see too much of him so I really don't know what he's capable of. When I think of him, his disjoints come to mind.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Just to let people here know, that list is far from being complete. It'll take much more time and opinions for me to feel satisfied with it, as well. Additionally, I don't want to disrupt this topic with my list, either. So after this post, I wish not to talk about it here.

However, if it is something that you are interested in, please check out my topic. Even if it is just to criticize the ranks, the list, or my opinions. Currently, not too many take part in my topic. And that is something that I am worried about, since the lack of other opinions and non-conflicting data can lead to untruthful and undesired results. So instead, I've just been taking information from here into account, since this topic has currently seen heavy focus on the neutral recently. And I am very thankful about that. Because every opinion helps.

But again, try not to talk about it here. Since I want this topic to go unhindered by my topic. Especially since that list currently isn't "finished."

This one about Meta Knight cracked me up: "That leaves us with his only two real options: Dash attack and Dash Grab. Completely ignoring how insane the punish is if he lands either of these, they really suck."

Sounds a bit like, "If you completely ignore the speed, range, safety and combo potential of Sheik's forward aerial, it sucks because it only does 5% damage."

There are quite a few posters there saying MK should move down to 2 and a 1/2 stars, which is hilariously misguided considering most top MK players, notably Tyrant, have said that his neutral game is above average relative to the whole cast

Personally, I don't share the sentiment that MK's neutral should go lower. He gets far too much reward off of his tools for him to warrant a lower placement. That is why I currently have him in my "suspect character" list, because I honestly feel like he should move up.

Your opinions on Marth/Lucina are helpful, as well.

 

[BunbUn129]

MK is my secondary and I can say I 100% agree with you. I think MK's neutral should be rated in the 3.5 star category. It definitely isn't the best, considering the fact that he doesn't have spammable aerials. However, it is really good due to the fact that he has such safe punish options with MASSIVE reward. Plus, dash attack and dash grab are amazing. I have no idea what that guy was talking about.

's neutral is overall good: you have great mobility, multiple jumps, and safe moves thanks to his frame data and disjoints, along with a good dash grab. He doesn't have a projectile, sure, but his mobility specs mean only characters with stupidly good projectiles (read: ) can wall him out. Note: the vsis said to be more or less even, and one factor is that Bullet Climax flies right over MK's head (unless he's at point-blank range). Like you said, he can't land with aerials due to their lag, but he has a frame 3 d tilt that makes for a nice grounded poke.

However, like , MK's neutral game is only passable if you judge it strictly by top-tier standards. MK doesn't dominate in neutral in the way you'd expect from a top 10 character, but he still has the most essential components of the ideal neutral. In fact, I believe mobility is the single most important part of neutral, and that characters who don't shine here need to be able to make up with a long-ranged game (eg ) in order to compete. Furthermore, the only character who obliterates MK in neutral is--drum roll--Sheik. MK also loses neutral to , but a saving grace is that bananas are items and therefore have to be used more carefully than the bull**** that is needlestorm.

What bothers me is that some MK players (mostly the ones on reddit) actually do think he has a lackluster neutral. Guys: you can't have a bad neutral when you have those favorable attributes!

But then again, I would trade drill rush for a projectile....

I have no idea what that guy was talking about.

About that, there are two types of MK players:
1) the plebs: the ones who want to learn up airs and nothing but up airs. These are the majority.
2) the "hippies": the ones who actually care about all aspects of gameplay, and can actually make do without landing up air combos all day. These ones have a clear understanding of the whole character.




Edit: ItsRainingGravy Sorry, I just felt it was relevant because we've been talking a lot about neutral lately.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Edit: ItsRainingGravy Sorry, I just felt it was relevant because we've been talking a lot about neutral lately.

Nah, it's okay. I don't mind. I just didn't want misinformation to spread, and for people to think that the list was completed/for it to derail this topic.

Currently, I'm going through a lot of IRL stress again, so something like this doesn't bother me.

 

[Routa]

Because, like it or not, that's the standard for Miis right now in most places and is the EVO ruleset this year.

I just love how people ignore the Smash scene in Europe.

Anyways Swordfighter's moveset is very similar to that of a Pit's and Tink's and his/her/its playstyle is very similar. Swordfighter is one of thous characters that are very simple by their gameplan and require strong fundamentals just like Pit. His aerial kit is amazing. His Fair comes out on frame 11 (which is pretty decent) and is a multihit which can be "ACed" before the last hit. "ACed" Fair can lead into Grab, Jab or to a down-tilt (all of these can be followed up with a another move). Also his Jab 1 can lead into a grab, d-tilt or Hero's Spin (if chosen). His Uair is very strong and is amazing kill tool (@DigitalAtom6 has gathered up some nice data when it comes to Uair). His Dair is not something to mess with. It is pretty much Kirby's, but with a landing shockwave. It is good for for edgeguarding and killing.

Well let's not talk more about his moves for now. Now how do you use a Swordfighter? Well like I stated before he is very similar to that of a Pit and Tink. I'm very bad at explaining stuff (which you may have known) so I will just state that he is pretty much a perfect mix of a Pit and Tink.

In Guest 1111 form Swordfighter is right outside of the bottom tier. When his full moveset is allowed he jumps to low part of mid tier. And once the size is allowed to alter he jumps to mid part of mid tier (size matters, mkay?).
Also Swordfighter does have some rep, but he lacks the "top lvl" rep. He still has some amazing rep like Colgate (I mean gee his Swordfighter is amazing even in Guest 1111 form) and Nyani.

The thing is that people still think he is trash even tho it has been shown many times that he is not easy win. The lack of knowledge of Miis disturbs me. I have seen many MU spreads of X character where it says that the character X is a hard counter to Swordfighter. The thing is that Swordfighter pretty much shares the same MU spread with a Pit(s). There are some MUs ofc where he is weaker, but most of the MUs are near 50:50. The thing is that no one knows Swordfighter's MU spread very well. Why? Lack of representation due to ruling. More and more Mii mains are coming from the shadows thanks to the current rulesets in Europe.

 

[Ffamran]

Fox's aerials in Melee are amazing! Uthrow or no Uthrow, Shine or no Shine. Yes, Uair would still be good. He still has other moves to confirm into it like Utilt/Dtilt/Nair/Usmash (lol) and even a landing Uair. Even so, is there a stronger Uair in that game? Maybe Bowser. That's it.

Brawl Fox Bair did 15%. Brawl Fox Dair was still frame 5, still did nearly 20%, and still had (I think) 12 frames of landing lag.

You get what on saying right? Moves make moves better - a no-brainer. Fox's Uair in general is good, but other moves like Utilt, U-throw, etc. make it even better.

It's a solid poke but not enough to fill the gap in Falco's midrange. It doesn't have Accele-Reflector's speed nor Void Reflector's power.

Accele-Reflector is frame 9, does 2%, and only reflects during the send out. You give up speed and safety to make reflected projectiles faster. There's like no real reason to use it unlike Reflector and Reflector Void depending in MUs.

Falco's melee dair only good because of shine?
Are we talking about the same move with quick startup, safe on crossup shield, that combos into itself at most %, with a spike that stays out forever, a hitbox that reaches below him, and the contender for one of the best moves in the game? That dair? Only good because of shine? Bruh...

Utilt, Shine, etc. made Dair better. Dair is a monster of a move, but it wouldn't be as monstrous without other moves making it even more monstrous. Ya get what I'm sayin'? Dair couldn't save Falco in Brawl and funny enough, Dair was slightly better in Brawl because of its lower landing frames of 12 to Melee's 18 and slightly auto-cancel of before 5 and after 28 to Melee's before 5 and after 31 at the cost of losing a hitbox on Falco's body, 3 less total active frames, and being a techable spike unlike in Melee.

Spoiler: Melee and Brawl Falco Dair hitbox

 

[BunbUn129]

Dair was slightly better in Brawl because of its lower landing frames of 12 to Melee's 18

L-cancelling.

Also, Brawl dair didn't spike throughout the whole move's duration. That alone was enough to make it worse than in Melee.

The move was worse in every way, aside from a 1% damage buff on the clean hit (yay!)--and this increased power was negated by the fact that you could meteor cancel it.

 

[Xandercosm]

's neutral is overall good: you have great mobility, multiple jumps, and safe moves thanks to his frame data and disjoints, along with a good dash grab. He doesn't have a projectile, sure, but his mobility specs mean only characters with stupidly good projectiles (read: ) can wall him out. Note: the vsis said to be more or less even, and one factor is that Bullet Climax flies right over MK's head (unless he's at point-blank range). Like you said, he can't land with aerials due to their lag, but he has a frame 3 d tilt that makes for a nice grounded poke.

However, like , MK's neutral game is only passable if you judge it strictly by top-tier standards. MK doesn't dominate in neutral in the way you'd expect from a top 10 character, but he still has the most essential components of the ideal neutral. In fact, I believe mobility is the single most important part of neutral, and that characters who don't shine here need to be able to make up with a long-ranged game (eg ) in order to compete. Furthermore, the only character who obliterates MK in neutral is--drum roll--Sheik. MK also loses neutral to , but a saving grace is that bananas are items and therefore have to be used more carefully than the bull**** that is needlestorm.

What bothers me is that some MK players (mostly the ones on reddit) actually do think he has a lackluster neutral. Guys: you can't have a bad neutral when you have those favorable attributes!

But then again, I would trade drill rush for a projectile....



About that, there are two types of MK players:
1) the plebs: the ones who want to learn up airs and nothing but up airs. These are the majority.
2) the "hippies": the ones who actually care about all aspects of gameplay, and can actually make do without landing up air combos all day. These ones have a clear understanding of the whole character.




Edit: ItsRainingGravy Sorry, I just felt it was relevant because we've been talking a lot about neutral lately.

I think people underrate MK's neutral really because they are used to spamming aerials and not approaching the neutral in a smart way. If you aren't a scrub, you can make MK's neutral quite good. The problem is that if you aren't careful (like most of the plebs you were referring to), you will get punished for playing his neutral as if you were playing Mario's or Sheik's.

Personally, I don't really think MK's MU with Sheik is THAT bad. People exaggerate Needlestorm as if it somehow it ruins MK's whole strategy in the neutral (and it does to a certain extent) but if you just play "smarter not harder', I think the MU is greatly improved. Plus, Sheik is so light. One F-smash or DA from MK and she is dead. I'm not saying his MU with her is amazing but I really feel like people, even the best MK players, seem to make it seem worse than it really is.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I can't see MK vs. Sheik as exaggerated at all.

MK's best approaches and options in this matchup (from what I've seen of it) come from the ground. Needle storm very implicitly blocks that. He can't really straight up air to air Sheik either because she has Fair and well, yeah.

Like I'm probably oversimplifying it but needles is REALLY IMO why MK really hates Sheik.

 

[Emblem Lord]

With all the crying about Falco, I think its safe to assume hes bottom tier or close to it.

Lots of delicious drama and I missed it. smh.

 

[BunbUn129]

but needles is REALLY IMO why MK really hates Sheik.

I think everyone hates Sheik because of needles...:|

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think everyone hates Sheik because of needles...:|

I think it is at its peak in the MK MU. Lots of the better chars in the game have stronger aerial approaches than grounded (note: not all). This is where Meta Knight kinda stands out IMO, he's very very grounded. This is also a huge problem for....well, reasons.

 

[BunbUn129]

I think it is at its peak in the MK MU. Lots of the better chars in the game have stronger aerial approaches than grounded (note: not all). This is where Meta Knight kinda stands out IMO, he's very very grounded. This is also a huge problem for....well, reasons.

Well, then Sheik can swat opponents out of the air with her fair.

Most characters have to live with the sad reality that, grounded or aerial, they're going to get ****ed in neutral.

 

[Xandercosm]

I can't see MK vs. Sheik as exaggerated at all.

MK's best approaches and options in this matchup (from what I've seen of it) come from the ground. Needle storm very implicitly blocks that. He can't really straight up air to air Sheik either because she has Fair and well, yeah.

Like I'm probably oversimplifying it but needles is REALLY IMO why MK really hates Sheik.

You are definitely oversimplifying. Yes, Sheik can wall out MK's grounded approaches but a smart MK can work around that. You can do aerial fake-outs to bait unsafe reactions and then drop to the ground and go for a N-air -> DA or just plain DA. You can also use his plethora of setups from F-throw and D-throw to followup into his U-air strings. People just need to get creative.

 

[Amadeus9]

It's not an oversimplification. Sheiks fair beats all of mks aerial and anti aerial options, needles beat all of mks grounded options. It's really that simple.

(also dthrow uair kills mk at ungodly percents)

 

[BunbUn129]

It's not an oversimplification. Sheiks fair beats all of mks aerial and anti aerial options, needles beat all of mks grounded options. It's really that simple.

(also dthrow uair kills mk at ungodly percents)

How does MK play the Sheik MU?

Down tilts. A lot of down tilts.

 

[Xandercosm]

How does MK play the Sheik MU?

Down tilts. A lot of down tilts.

If you watch the super popular Leo vs. Mr. R set, you can see how many D-tilts he uses. It's wild.

It's not an oversimplification. Sheiks fair beats all of mks aerial and anti aerial options, needles beat all of mks grounded options. It's really that simple.

(also dthrow uair kills mk at ungodly percents)

Well, I'm not at all saying the MU is good for MK. Just saying it isn't absolutely hopeless.

 

[Jalil]

You are definitely oversimplifying. Yes, Sheik can wall out MK's grounded approaches but a smart MK can work around that. You can do aerial fake-outs to bait unsafe reactions and then drop to the ground and go for a N-air -> DA or just plain DA. You can also use his plethora of setups from F-throw and D-throw to followup into his U-air strings. People just need to get creative.

I don't know much about either characters but Mk being able to bait Sheik consistently is more of a player vs player thing. Sheik beating most of his options with fair and needles is how their tools themselves interact.

 

[BunbUn129]

I don't know much about either characters but Mk being able to bait Sheik consistently is more of a player vs player thing. Sheik beating most of his options with fair and needles is how their tools themselves interact.

The vs is 60:40 or 70-30 (ie -2 for MK). And I love this MU. You know why?

Because it seperates the great MK players from the good ones. The "good" MK players practice punishes but forgo learning baiting (which is an essential part of MK's play style). Abadango is a "good" MK player while Tyrant, Ito, and Leo are great ones, and this is signified by how they play the Sheik MU's. Abadango has such a predictable neutral that he practically has Sheik-syndrome, while the other three proactively bait and alternate between grounded and aerial approaches.

During Leo's sets vs Mr. R and Vinnie, he lost the first game in both sets. But then he qerb stomped them every game after. He spent the first game downloading them, and used that info to adapt and play neutral properly.

THIS is how MK plays neutral vs Sheik:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxDNVq7giGo

 

[Jamurai]

I think it is at its peak in the MK MU. Lots of the better chars in the game have stronger aerial approaches than grounded (note: not all). This is where Meta Knight kinda stands out IMO, he's very very grounded. This is also a huge problem for....well, reasons.

It's not just needles tbf, although they are very annoying. Meta Knight is a "I play patiently, then whiff punish you and you pay for it with at least half your life" kinda character. I've heard he compares well to SF4 Dudley if one relates to this stuff, but I've never played that game so I can't comment. Anyway, it's also that it's very hard to whiff punish Sheik, because she has so many safe options (Fair being the big one) which MK can't punish very easily with his usual tools. Her safety is what is so difficult about this MU.

You can see it when comparing play levels. At mid level, players will naturally do unsafe stuff occasionally and as long as the MK's punish game is on point the matchup doesn't seem too bad. His punish game is so strong that he can keep up with Sheik as long as he capitalises well on her mistakes. Slight disadvantage amirite?

However, when we get to high and top level, Sheik players are so good at abusing her safe pokes and avoiding risky situations that it becomes very one-sided. For example, watching Ito play VoiD is kinda sad; VoiD knows his character inside-out and has a decent amount of MU experience so he knows how to stay safe and not be opened up without Ito over-committing. And we all know what an over-commitment vs a top Sheik will get you, especially as a fast-faller. In addition, top Sheiks are impossible to edgeguard and can utilise her good landing options like Bouncing Fish so she won't get juggled, edgeguarding and juggling being two of MK's great strengths. As a result, this matchup is pretty horrible at top level.

 

[BunbUn129]

Tyrant's MK MU spread:

Surprise: MK loses to Mario and Mega Man, and goes even with WFT.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Aerial aggression is so good in this game I think, because of how aerial momentum works by design. In the air, when you throw out an attack usually you can control your direction easily and retreat or cross up, making so many aerials "safe" and good at poking. With ground moves like dash attack and tilts, you not only are limited when running or walking respectively (hence the development of more flexible movement options like foxtrot and pivoting), but you really do have to over-commit to anything you do. A whiffed dash attack or dash grab on the ground means so much more than a poorly spaced fair in the air.

Is it possible that this is just a shortcoming of sm4sh players rather than an inherent superiority in the air? It could be that we don't see as much foxtrotting or perfect pivoting at top level play because these techniques are just harder than throwing out short hops and frame fast aerials.

 

[Amadeus9]

That mu chart is bad. Almost all the fighters in disadvantage should be in neutral. other issues too

 

[Y2Kay]

How in the world does MK beat greninja?

just.....how?

even optimistically it's even.

 

[FullMoon]

Tyrant probably doesn't have any high level Greninja experience so it's not too hard to imagine why he would put it as an advantage.

 

[Y2Kay]

Well neither does Ito and he still put it as even