Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Zelder]

Calling it the "nothingness" approach is like the most anime possible way to refer to it. This is not a value judgement, merely an observation.

 

[Big-Cat]

Calling it the "nothingness" approach is like the most anime possible way to refer to it. This is not a value judgement, merely an observation.

Actually, it'd be Mu.

 

[jet56]

Who said he was bottom 10?

My bad, he's the 13th worst character counting mii's. if mii's aren't included, he is the 10th worst. so it is half correct, based on the tier list.

Best at footsies in the game but he only does that ONE thing making him one dimensional and linear. Developing counter play is not hard or you can simply not play footsies wiih him.

But hes not bottom ten. His burst damage/KO potential is too great for that. As well as his obvious dominance at mid and close range.

What is that ONE thing exactly? i you referencing that he only has a ground game? but yeah, overall i feel he should be mid tier, 30 or 29th seems fair in my eyes. the biggest thing is that he suffers from stage counterpicks. but he has town and city, which is a good neutral stage for him, and Lylat is a starter stage now, and it is very hard if not impossible to circle camp him there. Battlefield is also good, if the character mac is playing against doesn't have a projectile (or isn't sonic.) with that in mind, he should rise a good chunk. he beats all the characters 10 spots above and below him to say the least.

 

[Locke 06]

"Nothingness" is not a concept.

It is much better described as playing "reactionary" and "non-commital."

This is nothing new. Every character in the game benefits from withholding unnecessary buttons. It is the same thought that goes into staggers and delays.

This is not the same as yomi... Not even close...

 

[jet56]

"Nothingness" is not a concept.

It is much better described as playing "reactionary" and "non-commital."

This is nothing new. Every character in the game benefits from withholding unnecessary buttons. It is the same thought that goes into staggers and delays.

This is not the same as yomi... Not even close...

agreed. some characters benefit more from this playstyle than others, particularly ones with fast and strong punish options, but it is a beneficial trait that can be used across the whole cast. in fact, you might see this kind of action being used when one player has the percent lead, as they aren't under any pressure to commit to an action.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Maybe Mac would be thought as better if his mains had the really nice idea to play another character alongside Mac.
Seriously too, Mac is a character that i don't consider too viable due to the mindset of a majority of players right now. Mac has among the roughest matchups of the entire game, and while some others are pretty nice, such as Fox, it is still a necessity to play another character because of the horrendous matchups vs some characters who can counterplay Mac best while negating or being able to keep up with some of his ups while crushing him once you get him in Disadvantage.

Also, i'd like to bring up a subject related to tiers by themselves: Don't call a character " Not bottom 10 " or any Bottom/Top X, but instead, express your thoughts in a more general way " They're not as good/bad as some of us may think "
You see, as of right now, Smash 4 in many ways is a game with niche placements/sets that are notable & worth talking about, usually leading to this kind of discussion, but here's the thing: It happens with everyone.
Defining who's actually really in Bottom/Top X is legitimately hard, aside from the 3 best & 3 worst, which may still be argued, but are overall the most stable & precisely placed character of our metagame, but for others, it's just kind of hard to place him due to said vicious circle happening for nearly every character who gets on the spotlight due to 1 set, a decent placement at a tournament, or a discovery, maybe some others things even.

 

[Megamang]

Mac appears to me to have a fairly large player base. The average skill might be a little lower, but the playerbase is there. The average skill being brought down by the large amount of FG or casual players, this is not a slight towards the truly talented Macs that exist. But, even with this playerbase, I don't see him doing well.

If a tier list is likelihood of success at a tournament, and we are accepting a 2 stock meta... it just doesn't seem likely for Mac to make it that far. The stages hurt him, CPs hurt him, linearity somewhat hurts him (though that is often a player issue more than not). I've heard from Mac players that his superarmor is actually pretty disappointing in some ways.

I don't like seeing that I am playing a Mac, he is likely to make some plays and take me out.. but can he consistently make those plays, and win the entire event? It doesn't seem to happen often, at least in my eyes.

 

[jet56]

Maybe Mac would be thought as better if his mains had the really nice idea to play another character alongside Mac.
Seriously too, Mac is a character that i don't consider too viable due to the mindset of a majority of players right now. Mac has among the roughest matchups of the entire game, and while some others are pretty nice, such as Fox, it is still a necessity to play another character because of the horrendous matchups vs some characters who can counterplay Mac best while negating or being able to keep up with some of his ups while crushing him once you get him in Disadvantage.

Also, i'd like to bring up a subject related to tiers by themselves: Don't call a character " Not bottom 10 " or any Bottom/Top X, but instead, express your thoughts in a more general way " They're not as good/bad as some of us may think "
You see, as of right now, Smash 4 in many ways is a game with niche placements/sets that are notable & worth talking about, usually leading to this kind of discussion, but here's the thing: It happens with everyone.
Defining who's actually really in Bottom/Top X is legitimately hard, aside from the 3 best & 3 worst, which may still be argued, but are overall the most stable & precisely placed character of our metagame, but for others, it's just kind of hard to place him due to said vicious circle happening for nearly every character who gets on the spotlight due to 1 set, a decent placement at a tournament, or a discovery, maybe some others things even.

I should say that i do play cloud alongside Mac. they cover each others matchups pretty well, and make my opponent second guess a lot of the time on what stage to ban (since cloud can't be as defensive on FD, and thrives on platforms, while with mac its the opposite). Mac does have some pretty rough matchups for sure, but they aren't terribly bad for him, in any sense. I can agree mindset is part of it for mac though. i should say i believe little mac has a top 5 neutral game, and his disadvantage game isn't garbage (still not great, but people just don't know how to get out of juggles with mac.)

I agree that the tier list is still volatile, it was part of the reason why i brought up macs placement. its fair to say that we shouldn't be saying it in terms of "top 10" or "worst 10".

Mac appears to me to have a fairly large player base. The average skill might be a little lower, but the playerbase is there. The average skill being brought down by the large amount of FG or casual players, this is not a slight towards the truly talented Macs that exist. But, even with this playerbase, I don't see him doing well.

If a tier list is likelihood of success at a tournament, and we are accepting a 2 stock meta... it just doesn't seem likely for Mac to make it that far. The stages hurt him, CPs hurt him, linearity somewhat hurts him (though that is often a player issue more than not). I've heard from Mac players that his superarmor is actually pretty disappointing in some ways.

I don't like seeing that I am playing a Mac, he is likely to make some plays and take me out.. but can he consistently make those plays, and win the entire event? It doesn't seem to happen often, at least in my eyes.

the biggest thing here is "consistency". little mac doesn't allow for as many mistakes as other characters, due to his character design. this is probably the biggest reason why mac struggles at large events, because consistency is the biggest issue involved, and this falls on the players, not the character.
On the topic of stages, little macs stage choices actually are not bad at all. in fact, with lylat being a starter over dreamland, it makes it even better for him in a lot of cases, as he can avoid circle camping on that stage. while battlefield is a better pick against certain characters, it didn't help him that there was another battlefield in Dreamland as a starter. Again, as little mac has one of the best punish and neutral games out of the whole cast, he really only truly begins to shine when a high level player begins to use him on a national level. and he one of the characters who uses the most tech in the game, which is needed to bring out his full potential.

 

[C0rvus]

Hard to rate a character very high when he can more or less lose at the character select screen AND the stage select screen.
Mac clearly has some strengths, but such a hyperbolic character design is doomed from the start. Mac cannot take a national, he is pretty strictly not solo viable, but it's not like he sucks. Don't get me wrong. But inconsistency is bad, and SOMEBODY needs to be "low tier". That's just how things go.

 

[Megamang]

Well, 'making mistakes' can be as simple as 'guessing wrong', or 'being predicted'. In this case, it is pretty bad to have some of the worst punishment for it. And yea, rising uppercut can get him out of juggles... but compare it to something like mario's nair. Nair can drift, and is relatively low risk... yet if you call the mac on his rising uppercut, you can get him with an aerial at the peak of his jump, and initiate a powerful juggle, or launch him offstage, putting him in a 50/50 that results in his death half the time.

I mean, he isn't terrible... but neither is anyone above him. I just don't see him climbing above where he is, the characters below him have less problems and better results. And this is coming from someone who would rather play other characters than Mac. (I personally hate his design, and a game with him in top tier would be painful to play, to say the least. This is probably why we never saw meaningful buffs, because he is dominant online)

He does gain a lot from PP, and PP utilt is something I like seeing as it is powerful and something that improves his neutral... but is it enough? If he was bigger and heavier that would be something. but then he wouldn't be little mac.

I think a viable mac in my eyes would only have a few changes though. If he had a really damaging pummel, like the most damaging pummel by a significant amount (from a boxing clinch, duh!) he would be so much better. Maybe I don't play the best macs, but while he is safe on shield, he doesn't threaten the action of shielding much. I fish for powershield ->boost kick pretty hard against him, especially since the new more horizontal angle actually spells death for him faster.

The thing is, your character is only a tool.. and when one tool demands more consistency than any other character, that isn't a good thing. Its not a lack of skill, its just that you play so many opponents with so many good options, that a read gone wrong is going to happen... a lot... it helps to be able to flip kick out, survive it, or even avoid the read based situation with superior mobility and zoning...

 

[jet56]

Hard to rate a character very high when he can more or less lose at the character select screen AND the stage select screen.
Mac clearly has some strengths, but such a hyperbolic character design is doomed from the start. Mac cannot take a national, he is pretty strictly not solo viable, but it's not like he sucks. Don't get me wrong. But inconsistency is bad, and SOMEBODY needs to be "low tier". That's just how things go.

This right here i believe is the biggest misconception by the smash community. little mac does not, in fact, lose at the character select screen/stage select screen. in regards to stage selection his top 3 stages from what i have played are:
Final destination
Town & City
Lylat/Battlefield (this is dependent on the character involved, whether they are a zone based character or not.)

if the mac player bans the right stages, he will always end up on T&C or Lylat/BF (again, you ban BF if the character is more defensive and zone based). which means that even game one, mac does not lose to a stage pick. and even if he drops the second game, he still can CP stage game 3.

In regards to CP a character, it must be understood that the worst matchups for mac from my experience are (,,). at worst, i would give them all a 70-30 in their favor, and the player must be vastly experienced in order to play and defeat a high level mac player AND know the matchup well enough. i won't go into details on each matchup itself, but the point is that little mac is very difficult to counterpick, but this is only true for someone who hardcore mains the character and has grinded these matchups. most people who secondary, pocket, or haven't mastered the character well enoug will indeed suffer from stage and character choices.

Well, 'making mistakes' can be as simple as 'guessing wrong', or 'being predicted'. In this case, it is pretty bad to have some of the worst punishment for it. And yea, rising uppercut can get him out of juggles... but compare it to something like mario's nair. Nair can drift, and is relatively low risk... yet if you call the mac on his rising uppercut, you can get him with an aerial at the peak of his jump, and initiate a powerful juggle, or launch him offstage, putting him in a 50/50 that results in his death half the time.

I mean, he isn't terrible... but neither is anyone above him. I just don't see him climbing above where he is, the characters below him have less problems and better results. And this is coming from someone who would rather play other characters than Mac. (I personally hate his design, and a game with him in top tier would be painful to play, to say the least. This is probably why we never saw meaningful buffs, because he is dominant online)

He does gain a lot from PP, and PP utilt is something I like seeing as it is powerful and something that improves his neutral... but is it enough? If he was bigger and heavier that would be something. but then he wouldn't be little mac.

I think a viable mac in my eyes would only have a few changes though. If he had a really damaging pummel, like the most damaging pummel by a significant amount (from a boxing clinch, duh!) he would be so much better. Maybe I don't play the best macs, but while he is safe on shield, he doesn't threaten the action of shielding much. I fish for powershield ->boost kick pretty hard against him, especially since the new more horizontal angle actually spells death for him faster.

The thing is, your character is only a tool.. and when one tool demands more consistency than any other character, that isn't a good thing. Its not a lack of skill, its just that you play so many opponents with so many good options, that a read gone wrong is going to happen... a lot... it helps to be able to flip kick out, survive it, or even avoid the read based situation with superior mobility and zoning...

I first want to thank you for having an intelligent discussion with me on this. TBH, i haven't ever had one in regards to mac's viability, because of the image most players have of him at a competitive level.

Yes, i can agree that making mistakes is also seen as being read or predicted. and that it wouldn't be fair to continue rehashing the argument that player skill can elevate him, when the same thing can be said for any character. A better way to put it is that mac puts both players "on tilt", because while little mac can get punished super hard, the same can be said for his opponent. little macs punish game is absurd good, and a solid read or punish from mac can end the stock very early, but it is also true the other way around, due to macs recovery and bad disadvantage state.

I also want to say i don't have a problem with your opinion on his "design." In fact i completely understand it, because it is frustrating to play a character like mac, especially with super armor smashes, and insane fast tilts with killing setups and killing power (ftilt).

It's not just PP. Dash dancing into PP, roll boosted grabs and roll boosted pivot grabs, jump canceling (his stable combo is a Dtilt> JC up B, which is a super safe kill conversion to throw out in neutral.), and even new tech that has recently been discovered by myself and other mac (J.A.P.A.N is pioneering the mac meta at the moment.) all account for little macs footsies and neutral. the problem is the amount of time and effort it takes to master, and even more so to correctly implement it in a match. The big question here is: is it worth putting in all that effort to unlock this characters potential, when he isn't even a top 5 character? to some or even most, probably not. But what is important to consider here is that the character at his full potential is not close to a bottom 15 character. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to call him "middle of the pack" or even top 20 given enough time. I should also mention that while i can't threaten you to not shield, especially at low percents, i can condition and punish you for shielding it. let's say i grabbed you and down threw you, and you died away to avoid the potential up b. i could later go for a roll boosted pivot grab, or regular pivot grab, and immediately down throw you, to get a DI mixup and a stock kill. this is a psuedo 50-50 for me, because then you have to guess which way to di, and do it correctly.

I would kill for a better pummel (although it is a pretty good one as is), and other minor changes to the character. But he did get some nice buffs, and im running with what i got :D.

Im a little lost on this, are you saying my character is a tool to win the game? aren't all of us using characters, which are tools, to win the game? it could be you were saying my character doesn't have enough tools, particularly a "get out for free" tool, when i want to get away. actually, little mac indeed does have a way to safely retreat when he is in too deep, on the ground and in the air.
Perfect pivot shielding is a fantastic and safe retreating tool, and can be used out of his dash dancing at any moment. he also has a really fast walk, so walking, PP shield is a solid option. if im offensively pressuring, and i want to safely back away, a PP shield will do just fine. I could also just roll, but that can be read and punished a easier.
Nair is also a very nice tool to get out of juggles. i will be honest i saw this move as useless, as it was a very small hitbox to begin with, but it comes out frame two, and can be used in conjuction with a fast fall to break your opponents juggle and touch the ground quite fast. in fact, i think its the fastest aerial in the game. for a hard read, Up B is also good, but nair is safer.

 

[C0rvus]

Sheik is nearly even, if you ask Sol. I'm inclined to agree with him.
Meta Knight, Pit, or any character that is given an opportunity to camp him and can capitalize, those are the real issue. Consider you more or less have to ban Duck Hunt, and to a lesser extent Smashville. That leaves Mac open to getting taken wherever his opponent's character is comfortable, and that's if you win a game.

 

[thehard]

Since we're talking about Mac, here is some recent essential reading by Sol about furthering his metagame: http://smashboards.com/threads/advancing-the-mac-meta.432448/

He's been pulling top 3 recently at some stacked events.

I've always thought that movement was designed in this game with Little Mac heavily in mind because he gets so much from his excellent dash and pivots.

 

[Smog Frog]

opinion: limit breaks are undertuned and overshadowed by the pure *********** that is cross slash.

-blade beam has terrible frame data even for a projectile, doesnt kill until 120% center stage, and despite the rapid slash effects on shield you cant actually do anything with it to shields. it does 19%, but other projectiles that have to be charged(does limit break count as charging it?)are actually good and dont overlap with other resources. i guess it's decent for edgeguarding but cross slash does that better.

-climhazzard is likely intended to be used with the braver for 21%, but beyond 50% this isnt really doable. you're left with an underwhelming 13% that doesnt kill until 120%. i WILL give it that it is a better oos than cross slash, but outside of that it's a mediocre move. oh, and because you cant choose whether or not to use the limit version, it will very likely eat up your limit break when recovering.

-finishing touch i feel is the (distant) second best limit break. it kills at 50% when set up and has very large hitbox. but then you realize it only does 1% and has a ****load of endlag so it's a really risky option for reads.

 

[jet56]

Sheik is nearly even, if you ask Sol. I'm inclined to agree with him.
Meta Knight, Pit, or any character that is given an opportunity to camp him and can capitalize, those are the real issue. Consider you more or less have to ban Duck Hunt, and to a lesser extent Smashville. That leaves Mac open to getting taken wherever his opponent's character is comfortable, and that's if you win a game.

oh yeah, i heard about that. you mentioned that fact that camping is a problem, and i agree with this. but this is what stages like T&C and Lylat are for. T&C does have platforms that leave on occasion, and i have timed it, in a 6 minute game, you typically get no platforms for 2-2:30 minutes. Lylat while it does have platforms can be sharked by mac with usmash, and are much easier to reach than Battlefield. so mac players have accounted for camping by looking at their stage choices.

 

[C0rvus]

Sol is definitely putting his money where his mouth is. The guy has really been pushing his character's meta lately. It's pretty inspiring.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@ "nothingness" discussion

If you have a character with a good pivot grab, do that against Sonic.

Seriously, why on earth do people try to take Sonic head on when he's charging? Pivot grabs destroy Spin Dash. Stand there, let him come to you, pivot grab, enjoy easy damage. Repeat as now you have the % lead and he has to approach. Unless you have a projectile or something really specific in that MU... you can't complain about Sonic if you aren't doing that.

Been doing that since the game came out. Nicely nullifies most of his options.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Think when it comes down to it, Little mac loses mostly to stages than characters.

 

[FullMoon]

Think when it comes down to it, Little mac loses mostly to stages than characters.

Little Mac vs Duck Hunt (the stage) is probably one of the hardest MUs in the game.

 

[NairWizard]

All this nothingness talk is really becoming bizarre to me.

In my day we called it "patience" or "playing smart."

I learned smash (and fighting games in general) from sessions with teh_spamerer, a guy who was renowned in Melee/Brawl/other games for extremely patient, reactive gameplay (his patience was so incredible that on his best days he went toe to toe with m2k and Ally in Brawl, and they were the giants of the age), and although I wasn't too invested in smash until smash 4, some of those principles have carried me in tournament sets.

The best lesson I can remember on the topic was when spam told me: "your opponent has a brain and a controller, don't forget that."

Think about it.

 

[Nobie]

All this nothingness talk is really becoming bizarre to me.

In my day we called it "patience" or "playing smart."

I learned smash (and fighting games in general) from sessions with teh_spamerer, a guy who was renowned in Melee/Brawl/other games for extremely patient, reactive gameplay (his patience was so incredible that on his best days he went toe to toe with m2k and Ally in Brawl, and they were the giants of the age), and although I wasn't too invested in smash until smash 4, some of those principles have carried me in tournament sets.

The best lesson I can remember on the topic was when spam told me: "your opponent has a brain and a controller, don't forget that."

Think about it.

That is the most ironic name for a patient player ever

 

[NairWizard]

That is the most ironic name for a patient player ever

Heh. off-topic, but spam was aware of the name. It actually is quite fitting.

The idea was that he didn't mind doing the same thing 50 times in a row, as long as he saw that you weren't adapting to what he was doing. Another kind of patience.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

All this nothingness talk is really becoming bizarre to me.

In my day we called it "patience" or "playing smart."

I learned smash (and fighting games in general) from sessions with teh_spamerer, a guy who was renowned in Melee/Brawl/other games for extremely patient, reactive gameplay (his patience was so incredible that on his best days he went toe to toe with m2k and Ally in Brawl, and they were the giants of the age), and although I wasn't too invested in smash until smash 4, some of those principles have carried me in tournament sets.

The best lesson I can remember on the topic was when spam told me: "your opponent has a brain and a controller, don't forget that."

Think about it.

I like the way you put it. I've been reminding myself recently to play more patient and it's been rewarding.

I think talking about patient play also brings up the topic of walking in the game. I see a lot of the top level players walk A LOT, but not a lot of it below them. Void almost doesn't run, and ZeRo only seems to run if he feels pressured. I've been trying to implement that more in my gameplay and the quote that made me recognize it's usefulness was 'let your presence do the talking". You don't have to do anything offensive, but the simple act of walking towards the other person puts pressure on them to make a decision. Once they make that decision, you react.

(also, first time posting here, long time lurker... hi guys)

 

[[BROF]]

Remember that while walking you have ALL of your tools available, including a faster Shield and an immediate Dash back.
Characters with good walking speeds benefit greatly from patience.

 

[Emblem Lord]

All this nothingness talk is really becoming bizarre to me.

In my day we called it "patience" or "playing smart."

I learned smash (and fighting games in general) from sessions with teh_spamerer, a guy who was renowned in Melee/Brawl/other games for extremely patient, reactive gameplay (his patience was so incredible that on his best days he went toe to toe with m2k and Ally in Brawl, and they were the giants of the age), and although I wasn't too invested in smash until smash 4, some of those principles have carried me in tournament sets.

The best lesson I can remember on the topic was when spam told me: "your opponent has a brain and a controller, don't forget that."

Think about it.

I will be sure to tell Kashif you gave him a shout out.

 

[Ghostbone]

opinion: limit breaks are undertuned and overshadowed by the pure *********** that is cross slash.

-blade beam has terrible frame data even for a projectile, doesnt kill until 120% center stage, and despite the rapid slash effects on shield you cant actually do anything with it to shields. it does 19%, but other projectiles that have to be charged(does limit break count as charging it?)are actually good and dont overlap with other resources. i guess it's decent for edgeguarding but cross slash does that better.

-climhazzard is likely intended to be used with the braver for 21%, but beyond 50% this isnt really doable. you're left with an underwhelming 13% that doesnt kill until 120%. i WILL give it that it is a better oos than cross slash, but outside of that it's a mediocre move. oh, and because you cant choose whether or not to use the limit version, it will very likely eat up your limit break when recovering.

-finishing touch i feel is the (distant) second best limit break. it kills at 50% when set up and has very large hitbox. but then you realize it only does 1% and has a ****load of endlag so it's a really risky option for reads.

Limit bladebeam isn't very good, even though they probably intended for it to be used, but I don't think limit up-b was even designed to be good (outside of being a very high distance recovery obviously), it's there to give you a way to force the enemy cloud to use their limit charge up.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Little Mac vs Duck Hunt (the stage) is probably one of the hardest MUs in the game.

Smashville can be tough too :^)

 

[jet56]

Think when it comes down to it, Little mac loses mostly to stages than characters.

Thats why the stage banning and picking section is so vital for mac mains. its also why we need to know the best stages for us, and what we want to ban and pick.

Little Mac vs Duck Hunt (the stage) is probably one of the hardest MUs in the game.

one of mac's worst stages yeah.

Smashville can be tough too :^)

haha, funny thing is, mac mains always ban this stage immediately. just how people ban fd against us immediately

All this nothingness talk is really becoming bizarre to me.

In my day we called it "patience" or "playing smart."

I learned smash (and fighting games in general) from sessions with teh_spamerer, a guy who was renowned in Melee/Brawl/other games for extremely patient, reactive gameplay (his patience was so incredible that on his best days he went toe to toe with m2k and Ally in Brawl, and they were the giants of the age), and although I wasn't too invested in smash until smash 4, some of those principles have carried me in tournament sets.

The best lesson I can remember on the topic was when spam told me: "your opponent has a brain and a controller, don't forget that."

Think about it.

I thought about it as patience and playing reactionary. i thought this has had been around in fighting games for awhile. the Turtle style from alpha strike 3 comes to mind when we talk about patience or "nothingness" as people have called it.

 

[Megamang]

I think looking at the limit break moves in terms of their flaws is dishonest, because if they were buffed then Cloud would be even more ridiculous. The real issue is Cross Slash serves the purpose of a kill move that Finishing Touch is supposed to, since it kills almost as early (hit a uair and you're there!), its safer, beats out almost any button, and is able to be used pretty frequently in the match. I mean, saying a projectile doesn't kill till 120% is funny since most people would love if their projectile killed at 120%. Perhaps a slight nerf to the damage of cross slash, and give the excess damage to blade beam, and we'd spread it around a little. Maybe if it locked longer it would pressure shields harder... but that would also be silly, since he already pressures shields better than most of the cast. And it would lead to fair spikes offstage, something that would be sad and painful.


I find it interesting that M2k is very brave off the ledge with Cloud. He mentioned on his stream -pre cloud- he wanted something to help him separate himself from other players, and mentioned in Melee it was his ledge game. Watching him nair Nairo to death at SV was really amazing, and its all over his sets. I guess when Cloud has advantage, he can afford to get out there and swing at you, especially (only?)when his limit is charged, since he has nothing else to do and also is able to recover regardless of what happens, barring a deadly spike.

 

[Ghostbone]

Cloud has a massive sword that comes out fast and goes all around him, as well as ridiculous active frames on dair, of course he'd be good at edgeguarding lol.

 

[Pancracio17]

Call me crazy but the patient style of play you guys call nothingness has been around since the beggining of fighting games hasnt it? Or am I not catching on?

 

[Greward]

Cloud has a massive sword that comes out fast and goes all around him, as well as ridiculous active frames on dair, of course he'd be good at edgeguarding lol.

Am I the only one who thinks that Cloud gimps better than he is gimped?

Not sure if I phrased that correctly though

 

[Shaya]

Ten or so characters can realistically pose a threat to Cloud recovering.
Cloud poses a threat to every character recovering, especially every character if he has limit.

So yes, you're correct to assert that.
And it would be bizarre if he could not.

Invincible multi hit move, transcended projectile, extremely elongated hitbox durations on huge hitbox moves, two disjointed spikes.

 

[C0rvus]

Call me crazy but the patient style of play you guys call nothingness has been around since the beggining of fighting games hasnt it? Or am I not catching on?

It has, but many of us are just discovering it and employing it. Not like we've all been around and invested in fighting games since the beginning. Smash in particular has a high level of accessibility that not so much lets you get away with not thinking about higher concepts, but it doesn't force you to as much.
I've been playing Smash since I was 6 years old. It took me until like, last year to begin thinking about things like the neutral, spacing, etc. Only so much is implied, players have to go out of their way to learn this stuff. Better to discuss it here a bit, in case it can help someone else start thinking about it, you know?

Shaya Mind sharing your thoughts on who can threaten his recovery? I only ask because I love to edge guard in Melee and PM, but it's very different in Smash 4. It might help me find my character.

 

[Ffamran]

Not to make fun of y'all too much, but it's cute to come in here and read about your fighting game progressions and realizations.

"I should SPACE you say...? Very interesting concept I may incorporate that into my gameplay soon."

The sad part is that it's been mentioned way back before and people kind of ignored it.

Spoiler: Fighting is Real

Adding on, playing neutral isn't just a fighting game concept, it's a basic fighting concept. People just gave it a name for fighting games. The problem with it all is that in real life, it's common sense as nobody has superhuman powers unlike in pretty much any game no matter how mundane like The Sims or the next generic *insert word here* simulator. People, animals, predator or prey, living beings just knew you couldn't bumrush. Charging in itself had an "approach" such as two groups firing their muskets and cannons before moving in for mid- then close-range combat; cover fire, projectiles. In the case of armies who didn't use firearms or earlier armies who had different tactics like the Spartans, they "approached" using a phalanx. Think of it like approaching with an invincible move like Melee's Shines - no coincidence that Reflectors were "shields". Others would use "burst movement"; the cavalry. The equivalent to that would be Diddy's Monkey Flip or from another game, Nash's Moonsault Slash. In the case of lack of projectiles, well, you're just screwed, but in most cases, armies or individuals will more likely to move in cautiously than in a berserker haze. Charging is a commitment with different consequences in context to real life and video games. You're less likely going to see rushdowns without some proper backup, "approach", or tactic in real life since you've only got 1 life and no 1-Ups, but in games, it's just a match, a set, something less fatal to you, especially you since the one who's really getting beat up is your character. Removing that, the fear of death... Those berserker vikings? You'd need your brown pants upon seeing an enemy have no care for their or anyone's lives; their only care is everything dies.

It's common sense and easily seen in pretty much any combat situation. So, the real question isn't why we're not talking about it, but why people aren't applying it. Yeah, you got your tools, your combos, and your setups, but how do you move? I've said it before and I'll say it again, basic movement should be mastered or at least understood regardless of whatever level you are; pro, high, intermediate, low, amateur, or even "casual". Your tools, combos, and setups are worth jack when your only means to get in is rushing in. Run in; get beat. Predictable and concerning seeing as you're not learning... What's really turning in that head of yours, old boy?

Spoiler: The Ins and Outs of Fighting

Sure, people want to get in and at times, it's a habit, but it's a not a good idea to always be in, always moving forward, and always in-your face. There will be times where you will fight someone better than you are up-close as you will find someone better fighting mid-range or long-range. I'm not entirely knowledgeable on boxing, so bear with me; Manny Pacquaio fights really well up-close, so why would Floyd Mayweather want to be in his face? Manny's an in-fighter aka a swarmer. The equivalent to that would be Captain Falcon, Fox, or Luigi, someone who wants to keep pressure on you as much as possible and in their range as much as possible. Let's dial it down to someone who's more "humanly" mobile... Falco. His lack of a decent projectile makes this even more comparable. Falco wants to be in to pressure, but his ideal range is close-range and his mobility isn't ideal in Smash for getting in. Manny's not known for his fast footwork; he may have good footwork, but he's known for his punches. The opposite to this would be an out-boxer or the out-fighter. It's someone who wants to keep you at range, their range, but at max distance. They don't want to deal with getting hit by someone who hits faster and/or harder. Pretty much any sword user can count, but let's take Ike because he's not "superhumanly" mobile like Lucina, Marth, Meta Knight, or Roy or just superhuman like Corrin. Ike never wants to be in way too far, because at that point, he's not going to be able to hit fast enough outside of jab. Ike wants you outside, out of his face, but in Ragnell's range. A non-sword user example would be Ganondorf, Rosalina & Luma, Samus, Sheik, and ZSS. Question is can Mayweather play in-fighting? Yeah, but can he play a better in-fighter than Manny? Maybe not, maybe he didn't think so, but he knew he could play a better out-fighter and that's what he did. Some characters can play both, but excel in the other. Sheik can play both in- and out-fighting which makes her so damn versatile. It's been argued that a Sheik is better at out-fighting, at "lame, defensive, cheese" play, but it's never been said she can't play in-fighting which she does to a ton of the cast because their options aren't just as good or the player level is just too low. Take any top Sheik and watch them wreck a low-level player. It can be said for anyone, but in most cases, a top Sheik can rush low-level players down harder than a Captain Falcon. Similarly, Cloud can play both in- and out-fighting and it's more terrifying because he's got even more range to help his out-fighting, but the speed and power to help his in-fighting.

The concept of "nothingness" makes me think of one player: Manny Manito. This is dated gameplay, but really, watch Manny's movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlAfQT8Qvfc. Manny just hops around and does not commit to much. In the case of Falco as a character, he can easily do this because of how fast and strong his Bair is. Falco hopping around like that with his back turned around is not a challenge, it's a threat. Even if he fails, he can get a Ftilt out upon landing or even follow up with a Ftilt from a late Bair. More recent? AC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVfDkRp1lEA. Get too close, but used a relatively low commitment move? Ftilt. Make a big mistake? He'll grab you or do a bigger punish like Side Smash. Blacktwins could have won against V115 again with Falco, but he dropped it by being more reckless during his last matches and V115 gaining momentum and playing at his pace not Blacktwins: https://youtu.be/S4ZXNXT9QQs?t=382. Blacktwins wasn't winning with MU inexperience; he was winning by outplaying his opponent. This gets turned around when V115 became the better player in the last matches. How about more relevant? Watch Ryo's Ike or Trela's Ryu. They don't do anything risky unless they know it's going to work. Their most defining traits are how they play neutral and how they move. Ryo's just hopping about waiting for you to commit and Trela's walking around waiting for you to commit and when you open yourself or commit too hard, WHAM!, you just got hit and you're going on a ride with the pain game.

Some characters don't benefit as much from moving about and in most cases, that's because they're really too slow. Their attributes are just that bad. Does that mean they can't do basic movement options? No, but they might not benefit as much. Ganondorf can walk around and do empty jumps, but his might not be as effective as Ike's. Still, Ganondorf can still move about rather than stay stationary. He'll just move "differently". The opposite to this is when a character makes it difficult to move during fights and those characters tend to be really fast or just don't give a damn because their approach or zoning options are just that good. Cloud comes to mind as with or without meter, he's fast and he's got a massive disjoint. Contrast this to also fast, Sonic, Captain Falcon, Little Mac, and Fox. Their problem? They don't have a massive disjoint. Imagine if Captain Falcon wielded a staff and still had his frame data or even faster with it. Welp, RIP everyone since he's going to go Sun Wukong on everybody. You would not be able to challenge him as easily because of that disjoint and him moving that fast means there's a lot more pressure to not pick a bad option and have him rush in your face to punish. Except he doesn't have a staff and is more likely to rush in and out confusing you and baiting you to commit too hard so he can run in and beat you up. In a way, Rosalina & Luma could count too, but she's more of baiting you and using Luma as an obstacle against you along with the fact she's one of the most mobile characters in the game ignoring her fall speed which might not matter for her type of character. She's got one of the best defenses in the game. Finding that weak point is going to be hard and losing your cool, committing too hard, is going to make it much, much worse.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's common sense and easily seen in pretty much any combat situation. So, the real question isn't why we're not talking about it, but why people aren't applying it. Yeah, you got your tools, your combos, and your setups, but how do you move? I've said it before and I'll say it again, basic movement should be mastered or at least understood regardless of whatever level you are; pro, high, intermediate, low, amateur, or even "casual". Your tools, combos, and setups are worth jack when your only means to get in is rushing in. Run in; get beat. Predictable and concerning seeing as you're not learning... What's really turning in that head of yours, old boy?

Thing is that when most Smash players think of movement, they think the unnecessary stuff like perfect pivot, dash dancing, etc. For gods sake, it's hard as hell to get players to walk instead of running everywhere.

 

[Browny]

How does he do vs the DLC? I'd imagine Cloud is a fat pain in the ***, but having a chargeable projectile + strong f/b throws is always a nice thing to have in the MU. I think he could probably mess with Cloud's recovery using dtilt effectively, but Cloud can just recover really far away with his snap hands. IDK. What is M2's biggest problem? Character problem I mean, lack of representation doesn't count.

Mewtwo messes with clouds recovery by just floating offstage, baiting anything, and then nair/fairing him. If he doesnt feel like risking that, a full charge shadowball can clip him during his upb ledgesnape for early kills. Mewtwo trashes clouds recovery harder than anyone in the game.

And about the "do nothing" strategy: I think Jigglypuff's Rest is the most extreme example of the concept. You always have to be aware of the threat of that move, because frame 1 invincibility, frame 2 hitbox, and KOs extremely early... but as soon as someone uses it and misses, the threat is gone, and there's your opportunity to punish. Most stuff in the game has that kind of threat/risk, but to a smaller extent.
Another note about that is that you have to sometimes "do something" obviously, if you never do anything then a smart opponent will realize you're baiting them with no threat :D and that leads into conditioning and etc.

Yep, and this is why Mewtwos Shadow Ball is arguably the best projectile in the game, I wrote this a few months ago (its long).

Mewtwos 'do nothing' game with shadowball in-hand is top tier, it makes the enemy do stupid decisions and completely nerfs their entire gameplay in some situations like with Megaman. Samus' is slightly stronger because its faster to release but its significantly more difficult to get full charges with her.

Spoiler

Part 2a: Scaring your opponent, risks v reward

When playing higher level opponents, they are always going to be thinking about the risk vs reward of their approaches and KO attempts. The best characters in the game get the best reward for the lowest risk but still there is always a risk attached. You can break down the game into every single movement being a risk versus reward calculation.

Consider the scenario of Samus' zair. It has extremely high range and is very safe, while only doing a little amount of damage. It is low risk, low reward. Link pulling a bomb is a medium risk for a medium reward. A captain falcon trying to read a roll with sideb in rage mode is an example of a high risk, high reward scenario.

The opponents know that there is a chance of getting hit but they take the risk because its worth it. They might become predictable but it doesn't matter because even if they miss, they don't get punished very hard with only a grab or dash attack. Shadow ball, like other charged projectiles though, changes everything.

Lets take a quick look a Shulk's bair used as a spacing move. Normally this move is only punishable by fast characters with weak attacks. Vs Mewtwo, Shulk knows that his bair will beat literally all of Mewtwo's normals, confusion and disable. The attack does 12% which will cancel out a shadowball charged to 21% or less. If your hands aren't glowing, Shulk knows this is a very low risk attack and if he's fishing for a KO while not trying to die himself, this is a good option.

Spoiler

Having an FCSB on hand though utterly removes that option from Shulk. He now needs a new KO option and now his risk is greatly increased with his safest KO move now utterly unsafe. This of course works no matter what % you or Shulk are on.

When the enemy is doing their risk versus reward assessment in their head, there is a new addition to the equation, a guaranteed 26% hit which can KO them. Now the risk versus reward equation is drastically skewed into the risk side. This affects how the enemy plays by reducing their safe options. If you make a typically very safe move become completely unsafe, you have basically nerfed your opponent since now they are scared and have to deal with doubt.

When your enemy is scared of using a very good option, they are forced to use weaker options instead and when you have done that, you have already given yourself a big advantage in any matchup however the key thing is that this only applies with a full charge shadow ball. To punish these options you need the speed and priority of it, lesser charges are just far too slow and when Mewtwo's hands are glowing, this is when the enemy realises they cant use their safe option any more.

To further illustrate this point, lets analyse Peach's approaching options vs Mewtwo.

Peach has a safe projectile to throw in turnip which is unpunishable on block from even a short distance, she has her obnoxiously good dash attack that is fast, powerful and has very good range. She can wall out with nair/bair but of course her signature approach is the floating fair into grab/retreating fair.

All of these options are solidly effective vs most of the cast and Mewtwo struggles to deal with this without a heavily disjointed fair. I want people to take a look at this gfy which goes through a few scenarios starting with turnip and a spacing you out with fair. Normally turnip is safe on block and from a distance while her fair can space you out well. A lot of characters simply can not punish Peach for doing this or are forced to try and catch her landing, but she still has her safe-on-block fair to cover that.

http://gfycat.com/QuarterlySleepyHawk

When Peach does risk vs reward calculations for her fair on approach, they are heavily in her favour. If she doesn't straight out prioritise the enemy, she will trade and the move is basically safe on block. It is a low-risk, high reward option. The best moves in the game all have this common trait of low risk high reward.

This next gfy shows how Peaches usual approaches all beat baby shadowballs but are utterly defeated by full charge. I want people to pay extra attention to the very first clip where if you attempt to stuff this approach with a baby shadowball, Peach will fair right through it.

http://gfycat.com/MatureNastyFallowdeer

Not shown there is that with a half charge shadow ball on hand, Peach's f-air is cancelled out, but it doesn't hit her and the situation is reset and you don't want to be in CQC with Peach. Only with a full charge does it rip through her fair, cancelling her attack and hitting her.

You have turned a low risk, safe spammable approach into a safe, unpunishable 26% on reaction to her approaching. You have now completely messed up her game plan and Peach has to rely on her other approaches. Her other approaches which conveniently enough, are also all stuffed by full charge shadow ball.

People suggesting that Water Shuriken is one of the best projectiles make me laugh, they have no concept of conditioning and the power of fear and doubt in competitive games.

 

[Megamang]

Perhaps the doing nothing is a new concept for so many people, because smash often has elements which makes this less efficient. For example, one of the things we see discussed in all matchups is 'who has to approach'. Often there is some element, such as limit, shadow ball, fox lasers, etc, that makes one player the aggressor and the other player the defender, aka the person trying to abuse whatever element is giving them the advantage to the max, while shutting down the other player's approach. There are probably more matches with this element than not, since the best characters in smash tend to be the ones who are able to both force an approach and slap down that approach efficiently.

Another thing, is that the viewerbase, or at least stream monsters, seem to hate the idea of doing nothing. They want straight buffered aerials and only attempts to open up with combos constantly, that is why dabuz got so much hate after all. Yet I found him interesting to watch, and it was odd to me that I was in the minority on that. Probably not the minority here. It certainly is frustrating to play against, but totally a part of any competitive game is that effective strategies are often 'annoying' because losing isn't fun.

I got sidelined there, but the idea is that the matchups in smash are often based around one player 'winning' when nothing is happening, which is why the idea probably isn't considered as widely. Its obvious that you have to approach sheik, what we are discussing is perhaps a better way to go about that. Personally, I found my pikachu to be much more effective when I started focusing on stage control, since QA is such a powerful stage control tool it synergized very well. Trying to catch shiek throwing needles is pretty fruitless, but if you slowly take stage away from her your game gets easier. None of this feels like nothing, its just perhaps nothing is the best way to capitalize once you've taken that much of the stage.


@ Movement, I harp on it constantly but ill do it again... I wouldn't call perfect pivot unnecessary. Its just an advanced tactic. It provides options that people might not know they had. For example, being able to hit with the back part of utilt is beneficial for many characters, and PP allows this with much greater area. you know this already, but I like to bring it up because I find its applications limitless, and interesting when I find new ones. Larry Lurr (I think it was) using PP utilt with DK was amazing to see, it was something I had thought of but never imagined being so freakin effective.

 

[meleebrawler]

Thing is that when most Smash players think of movement, they think the unnecessary stuff like perfect pivot, dash dancing, etc. For gods sake, it's hard as hell to get players to walk instead of running everywhere.

People look at competitive Melee, with stuff like wavedashing/shining, and think Smash 4 needs stuff like that to compare, thus the fixation on movement techs. How much do people walk in Melee, actually?

But back to 4, there are definitely characters that can help train a walking playstyle. and do it to minimize exposure due to low traction (and both have one poor dash option, dash attack for Luigi and dash grab for Mewtwo). and would much rather walk and poke than use their punishable dash attacks (especially with the former's now very scary ftilt and of course fastest walk speed), heck even Speed can get some good mileage from it, and finally walking is literally what separates the boys from men.

By default swordfighters and gunners are less inclined to dash due to a more deliberate playstyle compared to brawlers.

 

[Nobie]

I think the big thing about patient play as it pertains to Smash is that it has a huge amount of stigma around it, to the point that many newer players are being told that it is simply the "wrong" way to play. What are some of the new questions that players have when they come to Smash 4?

"How do I beat a spamming, rolling player?"
"I consider myself a rushdown player, how do I approach better?"

What is the common response on any Smash stream, Smash 4 or otherwise, when a slower-paced match is happening? ResidentSleepers all around.

Players are being taught that patience is a sin, and that they need to end things swiftly and with style.

Of course patient play exists across all Smash games. Melee has plenty of patience too even in non-floaty matchups, it just doesn't look that way. The issue with players being impatient or jumping the gun exists in other fighting games too, and that's why video tutorials are made to address people's understanding of things like "neutral" and "footsies."

However, what dawned upon me recently is the sheer difference in terms of how, say, the Street Fighter community's teachers approach these topics vs. how the Smash community's teachers have done so. False's short video on neutral is a good starting point for Smash players to be sure, but compare the following two videos:

This is Kira's guide to playing the neutral as Fox in Melee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7euwVDL_In4
It's mainly focused on techniques, what moves are good for what, the advanced techniques you can utilize to trick your opponents, and so on.

EDIT: This video from Kira is probably more appropriate for comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5WLjB8qOTE

This is James Chen's guide to whiff punishing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Rgk1CiZJ0
It breaks down conceptually what whiff punishing is, what makes it so complex, and how you can get better at it. It sets the techniques aside and combines philosophy with practicality.

Why didn't I pick a similar video for Smash? BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST (aside from the aforementioned False video, which is brief but good for what it is). Why aren't there resources like these for Smash players? Why are they always so focused on technology, and not the thinking that goes into improving your decision-making?

There's just a fundamental difference in how Smashers are being taught to play their games, and while patience and neutral and all that good stuff are long-standing concepts of fighting games, I don't believe they're being communicated enough to Smash players.