Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[BSP]

While you're talking about winning Rosa matches, I'd like to ask a few questions about your reasoning behind Pacman's placement, specifically since I feel that the Pacman meta has developed significantly in the Rosa matchup since APEX and since Abadango dropped the character.

I recall you going to a ho3k tournament a while back, have you ever had the opportunity to fight Sinji? The general consensus we've come to as a community is that Pacman needs to play more aggressively against Rosa than he does in other matchups, and that as a very defensive and reactive Pacman Abadango mental blocked against you REALLY hard at APEX.

Main reasons behind the belief that playing more offensively is a better strategy in this matchup primarily comes down to

• no real stage control gained or lost if Rosa uses GP to block a dropped hydrant.
• dropped hydrant beating uair.
• Gravity Pull's item limit (get enough things in the mix and you can get a free Key in hand.
• Projectile camping Rosa doesn't work.

matchup vod for thought.

Yes and no to the GP on hydrant. Pac-Man can heal himself off of, which will be a huge deal if the MU approaches time. I know 2% seems small but I've been timed out by 4% in tournament in that MU, so I know it matters. In that sense projectile camping Rosalina as Pac Man does make sense since you gain from it.

 

[Megamang]

Ever since I read some stuff on here about the importance of not pressing buttons, and staying grounded, my proficiency in neutral has increased dramatically. I find this especially important in the Cloud MU, where if you are both pressing buttons and buffering **** at eachother, you will certainly die. His meh ground game is really his biggest flaw, it allows you to force him to commit with SH.. of course, his options here are incredibly safe, but its still something. I kinda like ZSS in the MU, since her mobility is good enough to compete.

I think that is the true reason why Cloud is so strong/braindead/effective, is his mobility. Unlike other characters who have to worry about committing, being outmaneuvered, etc. he doesn't have to worry much about a movement mistake costing him a valuable position, since he just swings his sword when you enter his zone and punches holes in your character. He has problems in neutral, but not like most characters. This is the reason I think ZSS is a good choice against him. Not due to how their moves interact (but stuffing him with Zair is wonderfully useful, especially near the ledge), but her mobility. I've changed my gameplan to horizontal rather than vertical; someone mentioned that Cloud threatens this really well against ZSS and I have to agree. After tacking on some Uair BnB damage, I start looking for a read into a bair or even fair. Pushing cloud horizontally is a nice way to get an early kill, but most importantly, in high damage situations, it can burn his limit. His recovery is good, but when he has LB, its actually even easier to get him to burn it since he is basically only working with his double jump. And him breaking out of the Boost Kick reliably is nice, since when I go for Boost Kicks in rage that is usually what I want, it basically guarantees the kill in more situations when you have high rage.

Bayonetta also has been much easier for me pressing less buttons, for obvious reasons. ZSS's landing punishes with grab are really nice to have on her, the high active frames+grab not triggering Bat Within is quite useful.

Anyways, I wanted to ask about something I was messing around with yesterday. I was playing a Bayonetta who had the basic 9B style BnB down, I think its Up B Side B Up B Side B uair. After having little luck with SDI down and away (if i got out, it would be near the end and the damage was done, though surviving is nice), I tried something new. I started SDI'ing up. This broke the combos pretty quickly. It seems like if you make it high enough, its not like she can climb more. So you hit the up B, then the side B, then another up B... by then, you have moved up enough that the side B can't hit you, and its not like she can climb any higher. This was by far my most successful attempt at SDI. It seems counter intuitive to want to approach your death zone, but it seems to work. It also means she can't just divekick you for going down. Anyone have any input on this? I really made the MU easier for me.

Frame 1 escape option is BS.

 

[RonNewcomb]

That's fair.

I think the cause of disagreement is that there's no category between "even" and "shouldn't lose" on your matchup spread because that's where I think Fox should be placed. Saying that Rosalina "shouldn't lose" to Fox is kind of a stretch but you probably won't find anybody else who thinks it's even.

Yeah, the list really needs an "annoying" tier.

 

[Megamang]

Ok, someone said earlier that Nairo didn't SDI out of Cloud's fsmash, as Zero said he was hit from the air and that caused it to happen.


1) Did you mean to cite Zero?
2) Since when have we listened to Zero's word in this thread?
3) Nairo had whiffed a grab and was totally stationary. https://youtu.be/8teK0YlswzI?t=753

This discussion had died before I meant it to since I wasn't sure what I saw, but now that I rewatch the VODS it was clearly smash DI. He also SDI'd a LB Blade Beam into the ground to avoid damage earlier in the set. I think, much like the evolution of smash 64, we will see more and more SDI, but only from the top players. Its a good habit to have when you whiff..

Thinking of 64 has me wondering a few things. You could only SDI in that game, no DI, so there was some interesting combo escape options. What particularly comes to mind is SDI'ng upwards to avoid captain falcon uair chains, especially to avoid the final up b and punish. This really makes me think of ZSS, not only because the uairs are extremely similar but because the final hit is similar. ZSS has to hit with a certain part of the body when she initiates boost kick, or it wont work. So SDI upwards might be the answer... With the caveat that it might make you die to uair or even bair.

This also brings me back to my other question, does upwards SDI escape Bayonetta BnB? It is working for me, though I haven't played today it was working well last night.

 

[Trifroze]

And him breaking out of the Boost Kick reliably is nice, since when I go for Boost Kicks in rage that is usually what I want, it basically guarantees the kill in more situations when you have high rage.

Have to pick on this, there's a difference in popping and dropping out of boost kick though. Cloud often drops out of it which is never a good thing since then he will be able to act immediately after. Popping out is a good thing but it really only happens to lightweights and sometimes midweights (+rarely heavies) unless you connect with the first hit which is a very uncommon way to land boost kick in the air. On the ground either is bad since it means the move won't do what you want it to do, kill the opponent.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Advantage over Shulk, not significant advantage. That's really interesting actually, I wonder what his experience has been.

Pretty sure Shulk has astrong 50/50 that kills Rosa around 70 before hit with upthrow upair (jump mode activated for jump, and off when using uair).

Shulk's long sword also helps pressure Rosa's Luma from afar without getting punished too hard.

 

[Nobie]

Duck Hunt's hitbox visuzaliations are out. Maybe we can finally begin to unravel the mysteries of their smash attacks. http://smashboards.com/threads/duck-hunt-hitbox-visualization.432774/

 

[Big-Cat]

Ever since I read some stuff on here about the importance of not pressing buttons, and staying grounded, my proficiency in neutral has increased dramatically. I find this especially important in the Cloud MU, where if you are both pressing buttons and buffering **** at eachother, you will certainly die. His meh ground game is really his biggest flaw, it allows you to force him to commit with SH.. of course, his options here are incredibly safe, but its still something. I kinda like ZSS in the MU, since her mobility is good enough to compete.

I see you have embraced the power of nothingness. Any more thoughts on this shift?

 

[Mario766]

You can SDI out of witch twist, but it's hard to execute and can lead to unpredictable things happening.

Also, SDI is very neutered in this game outside of specific examples, so it's less effective.

 

[Lavani]

Ok, someone said earlier that Nairo didn't SDI out of Cloud's fsmash, as Zero said he was hit from the air and that caused it to happen.


1) Did you mean to cite Zero?
2) Since when have we listened to Zero's word in this thread?
3) Nairo had whiffed a grab and was totally stationary. https://youtu.be/8teK0YlswzI?t=753

This discussion had died before I meant it to since I wasn't sure what I saw, but now that I rewatch the VODS it was clearly smash DI. He also SDI'd a LB Blade Beam into the ground to avoid damage earlier in the set. I think, much like the evolution of smash 64, we will see more and more SDI, but only from the top players. Its a good habit to have when you whiff..

Thinking of 64 has me wondering a few things. You could only SDI in that game, no DI, so there was some interesting combo escape options. What particularly comes to mind is SDI'ng upwards to avoid captain falcon uair chains, especially to avoid the final up b and punish. This really makes me think of ZSS, not only because the uairs are extremely similar but because the final hit is similar. ZSS has to hit with a certain part of the body when she initiates boost kick, or it wont work. So SDI upwards might be the answer... With the caveat that it might make you die to uair or even bair.

This also brings me back to my other question, does upwards SDI escape Bayonetta BnB? It is working for me, though I haven't played today it was working well last night.

In all cases where I've seen people fly out of Cloud's fsmash, it's been because of rage. The first two hits on it have 0 and 0.5 SDI multipliers, the second hit just has an angle and knockback that aren't conducive to linking properly when rage factors in.

I agree with (S)DIing up for screwing with Bayo's followups, you won't escape Witch Twist that way but you usually get flung in ways that are difficult/impossible for her to guarantee anything on.

 

[Jalil]

Pretty sure Shulk has astrong 50/50 that kills Rosa around 70 before hit with upthrow upair (jump mode activated for jump, and off when using uair).

Shulk's long sword also helps pressure Rosa's Luma from afar without getting punished too hard.

I wouldn't consider that a 50/50 cuz up throw to up air never combos.
There's up air to up air which true combos and kills midweights at around 75% without rage. Doesn't need Monado jump to true combo or to be MALLC'd but if you do it's pretty safe, especially if crossed up. Tho the hard part is actually landing the first up air considering how slow it is
The first hit of falling up air true combos forever regardless of the art ur in (cuz of its set knockback) into uptilt, air slash and ftilt too.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Duck Hunt's hitbox visuzaliations are out. Maybe we can finally begin to unravel the mysteries of their smash attacks. http://smashboards.com/threads/duck-hunt-hitbox-visualization.432774/

I don't think it's the hitbox size/trail that ruins Duck Hunts smashes, I'm pretty sure it's more of the angle each shot sends you (correct me if Im wrong)

 

[Mario766]

I don't think it's the hitbox size/trail that ruins Duck Hunts smashes, I'm pretty sure it's more of the angle each shot sends you (correct me if Im wrong)

F-Smash sends you at an angle of 5, and D-Smash sends you at an angle of 165. I'm unsure of what would be 'optimal' angles though.

 

[Nobie]

F-Smash sends you at an angle of 5, and D-Smash sends you at an angle of 165. I'm unsure of what would be 'optimal' angles though.

The real problem seems to be that the placement of the f-smash hitboxes are somewhat randomized, making it so that you can never be sure how they're going to link together.

 

[Big-Cat]

Megamang
Thinking on it more, a "nothingness" style probably works more with characters that aren't momentum based - basically anyone not rushdown. I say footsies or punishment based characters probably benefit from this more than, say, Sheik.

 

[C0rvus]

I really enjoy the "nothingness" part of neutral, but it's now a thing that gets in the way when I play my friends who aren't super good at the game. Their idea of neutral is "use your projectile and pester your opponent until they approach" or "run at my opponent and use my best tools at them". It's hard to get them to play neutral, since they don't even consider the way neutral works in my mind. Fighting games are so complicated and multi-faceted. It's nice that I'm starting to realize how much of a difference there is between regular players and those at top level, even if it means I'm farther away than I thought.

 

[|RK|]

Ok, someone said earlier that Nairo didn't SDI out of Cloud's fsmash, as Zero said he was hit from the air and that caused it to happen.


1) Did you mean to cite Zero?
2) Since when have we listened to Zero's word in this thread?
3) Nairo had whiffed a grab and was totally stationary. https://youtu.be/8teK0YlswzI?t=753

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/49akeh/nairo_using_absurd_sdi_versus_cloud_fsmash_and/

First comment.

More importantly, I don't see any reason to doubt him.

 

[Big-Cat]

I really enjoy the "nothingness" part of neutral, but it's now a thing that gets in the way when I play my friends who aren't super good at the game. Their idea of neutral is "use your projectile and pester your opponent until they approach" or "run at my opponent and use my best tools at them". It's hard to get them to play neutral, since they don't even consider the way neutral works in my mind. Fighting games are so complicated and multi-faceted. It's nice that I'm starting to realize how much of a difference there is between regular players and those at top level, even if it means I'm farther away than I thought.

That reminds me. "Nothingness" is actually quite calming. I'm still experimenting with it on For Glory atm, but so far, it's looking pretty good. Works so far great with Mind you, this is For Glory and I'm hoping to get more mileage and/or limits tested with this weekend's local tournament. Like I know this here doesn't know how to approach me.

Depending on how this goes and how it's adopted by other players, we may very well see shifts in matchup ratios. I may be speaking too soon though.

 

[C0rvus]

Hmm, maybe I'll pick Bowser back up. He seems like a perfect fit for practicing this concept. He already thrives on fear. I'm not 100% certain we're thinking of the same thing, though.

I'm thinking of how in neutral, your opponent is threatening UNTIL they put out a move. The potential of a good move coming out creates a respect for said move, and it influences your decisions made in neutral. When it does come out and you're ready for it, the situation is won.

I feel like this is a super important part of neutral in Smash 4 specifically, where there are fewer layers of advanced movement techniques to hide behind. It's just RPS a bunch of times in a row.

Bowser's opponent is usually afraid of getting grabbed, which is a dynamic none of my other mains have. It's always a strong poke or projectile they are most afraid of. Since jab confirms into grab, they have to shield, but grab beats shield, so players without experience will flounder in this zone.

 

[Big-Cat]

Please explain. I'm curious.

 

[C0rvus]

I edited my above post. I'm all ears for new info on any high level concepts. I need to level my game up on the mental and analytical side, since character selection evades my grasp.

 

[Big-Cat]

Actually we're on the same page here. Doing nothing is the ultimate mind game and the ultimate mixup stance. You can do anything at a moment's notice.

I feel like this is a super important part of neutral in Smash 4 specifically, where there are fewer layers of advanced movement techniques to hide behind. It's just RPS a bunch of times in a row.

Pretty much every fighting game in a nutshell really.

 

[C0rvus]

Okay, cool. Yeah, when you just stand there, it definitely makes opponents think.
I was just reading the Footsies Handbook, and this section is about Super Meter. http://sonichurricane.com/?p=902
I was going to gloss over it since it isn't really relevant to Smash, but then I realized it can apply to specific characters; most notably, Cloud. Trigger happy players are more susceptible to baits. At the same time, a patient, "nothingness" style Cloud with Limit is potentially the most terrifying thing in the game.
This whole series of articles is a great read. Probably going to force my friends to read it.

 

[Djent]

vs. , Chapter 2:

Mew^2 beat AeroLink 2-0 (including a very decisive game 1) by playing defensively. The commenters remarked that Mewtwo is living forever because his floatiness make Bayo staircases difficult. The only stock AeroLink took was an fthrow kill at the edge at 160+%.

 

[Big-Cat]

I suppose AeroLink was ten years too young.
Is this the set in question?

Wait, you said 2-0, guess not.

 

[NairWizard]

You guys have misunderstood the concept of "doing nothing."

It doesn't actually mean standing still without pressing any buttons while waiting for your opponent to come to you. That's just outright foolish and your opponent will destroy you if he's any good.

A smash match consists of you and your opponent trying to outspace each other; you want to be in your ideal range and your opponent wants to be in his--e.g., Mario wants to be in his jab range against Marth, while Marth wants to be in his sword tipper range. All you do by standing there doing nothing in 99.95% of situations is enable your opponent to space himself properly and give up the microspacing battle. You should almost always be moving in smash. Walk, dash, jump, crawl, inch forward, whatever, but move.

What we mean by "doing nothing" is not committing to a punishable action and reacting to your opponent's commitment. "Punishable action" often means throwing out a hitbox, but sometimes, initial dashing or jumping can also be considered punishable actions if your opponent should be anticipating them in the given matchup and situation. That still doesn't mean you should totally stand still though, unless you are already at your ideal spacing and now any action your opponent takes is punishable on reaction. At the very least, you can walk or crouch.

 

[ぱみゅ]

OPINION TIME!

Spoiler

Pikachu is suspect for -1 on both tho.

I'm actually WAY more confident on Lucina's list than Marth's, I simply have much more experience with her.

The differences between both lists are basically on characters with poor neutral and/or with problems scoring a kill. If you allow Marth to have more room or chances to space properly, he WILL make the tippers matter.

Also, worth noting that they lose to almost every single High and Top Tiers.

 

[Nobie]

You guys have misunderstood the concept of "doing nothing."

It doesn't actually mean standing still without doing anything while waiting for your opponent to come to you. That's just outright foolish and your opponent will destroy you if he's any good.

A smash match consists of you and your opponent trying to outspace each other; you want to be in your ideal range and your opponent wants to be in his--e.g., Mario wants to be in his jab range against Marth, while Marth wants to be in his sword tipper range. All you do by standing there doing nothing in 99.95% of situations is enable your opponent to space himself properly and give up the microspacing battle. You should almost always be moving in smash. Walk, dash, jump, crawl, inch forward, whatever, but move.

What we mean by "doing nothing" is not committing to a punishable action and reacting to your opponent's commitment. "Punishable action" often means throwing out a hitbox, but sometimes, initial dashing or jumping can also be considered punishable actions if your opponent should be anticipating them in the given matchup and situation. That still doesn't mean you should totally stand still though, unless you are already at your ideal spacing and now any action your opponent takes is punishable on reaction. At the very least, you can walk or crouch.

I think there are two ideas of "nothing" at work. The first is the idea that you should avoid hitting buttons unnecessarily, because as you mentioned it means committing to an action. The second idea is when, in a single given moment, you choose to do nothing (not even move) because it is the right decision in that specific instance.

I recently played a Diddy Kong on ladder, who at one had me close to the edge and was throwing out fairs over and over to wall me out and threaten me. Clearly he wanted me to react somehow, either foolishly challenge his fairs or back myself all the way towards the ledge, but in that instance I literally stood still and did nothing, which turned out to be the right choice, because Diddy then felt like he wasn't getting things done and had to start approaching, which I was able to capitalize on.

 

[C0rvus]

Plus, the expectation that you should always be moving can be subverted by doing nothing, even if for a moment. Yomi is silly like that.

 

[bc1910]

Depending on how this goes and how it's adopted by other players, we may very well see shifts in matchup ratios. I may be speaking too soon though.

Speaking way too soon.

This is something already widely practiced by top players. It's something we're catching up to, not something we're innovating.

 

[NairWizard]

I think there are two ideas of "nothing" at work. The first is the idea that you should avoid hitting buttons unnecessarily, because as you mentioned it means committing to an action. The second idea is when, in a single given moment, you choose to do nothing (not even move) because it is the right decision in that specific instance.

I recently played a Diddy Kong on ladder, who at one had me close to the edge and was throwing out fairs over and over to wall me out and threaten me. Clearly he wanted me to react somehow, either foolishly challenge his fairs or back myself all the way towards the ledge, but in that instance I literally stood still and did nothing, which turned out to be the right choice, because Diddy then felt like he wasn't getting things done and had to start approaching, which I was able to capitalize on.

If you're already in your ideal range, then doing absolutely nothing except for waiting to push a very specific button (not just leaving your hands off the controller and deciding on what to do) can be correct, but you have to have in mind what exactly you're going to react to and what you're going to react with. You're not just going to sit there and think, "oh, I'll figure something out when he decides to come near me." Sharpening your reaction time via anticipation (a skill that separates top players from everyone else) requires honing in on a few specific options and their counters. Just waiting for the sake of waiting is meaningless.

A good example of a situation where you might stand completely still is this: you've cornered Bayonetta at the ledge and you just happen to be at the exactly correct spacing for your f-smash to connect on her without her being able to d-tilt you back. You think that she might either roll or Witch Time, but you're not sure which, so you can wait in this situation and react to her action, f-smashing if she Witch Times and d-smashing if she rolls. You do miss covering some options such as her jumping over you, but you can't always cover every option; the fact that you cover the most likely ones is your reward for having stage control and spacing correctly. Waiting to react/doing absolutely nothing is a strong option here.

The given example is just a special case of not committing unnecessarily; it occurs when you are winning the microspacing battle by so much that any additional movement would probably cause you to regress or mess up your spacing. In most situations, however, this won't be the case, and there will be some action that you can take to improve your position, whether that action is preemptively shielding or crouching or walking.

In the Diddy Kong situation you described, if Diddy is f-airing like that repeatedly you can walk forward -> powershield a f-air and punish it, or just outspace it depending on your character. Diddy's f-air isn't unpunishable, especially if it's poorly spaced, and you can force the spacing to be poor if all he's doing is repeatedly f-airing without moving. If he is moving, then the microspacing battle is still raging, and you can definitely respond to his movement pattern with one of your own and improve your position/set up a counterpoke.

While you still pulled ahead in that particular game, I would argue that you overlooked the opportunity cost of doing nothing in this case. You missed a punishment opportunity. I wouldn't call your decision incorrect, but calling it the right choice seems wrong too.

I'm also assuming that you had the percent lead if he was forced to approach you, because if you didn't, he had no reason to go in, and the correct response to your waiting game was for him to wait patiently as well.

 

[Wintermelon43]

OPINION TIME!

Spoiler

Pikachu is suspect for -1 on both tho.

I'm actually WAY more confident on Lucina's list than Marth's, I simply have much more experience with her.

The differences between both lists are basically on characters with poor neutral and/or with problems scoring a kill. If you allow Marth to have more room or chances to space properly, he WILL make the tippers matter.

Also, worth noting that they lose to almost every single High and Top Tiers.

I can't trust a matchup chart where somebody put in Pac-Man as an advantage for Marth. Pac-Man destroys Marth; with all the projectile, he can't do anything or approach. I'd say that matchup is -2 in Pac-Man's favor.

 

[ARGHETH]

I can't trust a matchup chart where somebody put in Pac-Man as an advantage for Marth. Pac-Man destroys Marth; with all the projectile, he can't do anything or approach. I'd say that matchup is -2 in Pac-Man's favor.

...Because one MU out of 55 invalidates an entire chart. Okay.
Anyways, Marth can shield the projectiles most of the time (Pac-man can't do the whole projectiles everywhere thing like the Links; there's generally going to be one+hydrant out), he has a range advantage, and his tippered moves kill. It's -1 at worst.
By this logic, everyone without a projectile that can beat Toon Link's gets destroyed by him.

 

[Nu~]

There's also the fact that all of Marth's moves nullify every fruit + hydrant hitbox...

 

[RonNewcomb]

I can't trust a matchup chart where somebody put in Pac-Man as an advantage for Marth. Pac-Man destroys Marth; with all the projectile, he can't do anything or approach. I'd say that matchup is -2 in Pac-Man's favor.

Right, like Link beats Marth "because projectiles"? You can't run away and throw projectiles if you can't run away. Wherever on the stage you're trying to get to, Marth gets there first.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Right, like Link beats Marth "because projectiles"? You can't run away and throw projectiles if you can't run away. Wherever on the stage you're trying to get to, Marth gets there first.

That's when you use fire hydrants. If Marth jumps up to hit you with an aieral, use fire hydrant, his moves are too laggy for it to not work if he is right under you, if not use neutral or back air.

 

[outfoxd]

If you're already in your ideal range, then doing absolutely nothing except for waiting to push a very specific button (not just leaving your hands off the controller and deciding on what to do) can be correct, but you have to have in mind what exactly you're going to react to and what you're going to react with. You're not just going to sit there and think, "oh, I'll figure something out when he decides to come near me." Sharpening your reaction time via anticipation (a skill that separates top players from everyone else) requires honing in on a few specific options and their counters. Just waiting for the sake of waiting is meaningless.

A good example of a situation where you might stand completely still is this: you've cornered Bayonetta at the ledge and you just happen to be at the exactly correct spacing for your f-smash to connect on her without her being able to d-tilt you back. You think that she might either roll or Witch Time, but you're not sure which, so you can wait in this situation and react to her action, f-smashing if she Witch Times and d-smashing if she rolls. You do miss covering some options such as her jumping over you, but you can't always cover every option; the fact that you cover the most likely ones is your reward for having stage control and spacing correctly. Waiting to react/doing absolutely nothing is a strong option here.

The given example is just a special case of not committing unnecessarily; it occurs when you are winning the microspacing battle by so much that any additional movement would probably cause you to regress or mess up your spacing. In most situations, however, this won't be the case, and there will be some action that you can take to improve your position, whether that action is preemptively shielding or crouching or walking.

In the Diddy Kong situation you described, if Diddy is f-airing like that repeatedly you can walk forward -> powershield a f-air and punish it, or just outspace it depending on your character. Diddy's f-air isn't unpunishable, especially if it's poorly spaced, and you can force the spacing to be poor if all he's doing is repeatedly f-airing without moving. If he is moving, then the microspacing battle is still raging, and you can definitely respond to his movement pattern with one of your own and improve your position/set up a counterpoke.

While you still pulled ahead in that particular game, I would argue that you overlooked the opportunity cost of doing nothing in this case. You missed a punishment opportunity. I wouldn't call your decision incorrect, but calling it the right choice seems wrong too.

I'm also assuming that you had the percent lead if he was forced to approach you, because if you didn't, he had no reason to go in, and the correct response to your waiting game was for him to wait patiently as well.

Waiting intelligently seems a hallmark of Brawl players, if I'm not assuming too much. Most of our PR (as in, I'm sure, a lot of regions) are old Brawl players, and patience is constantly noted in their games, like the Fox that seems like he punishes you hard if you even cough because you've been conditioned to do dumb, easy reactions.

Upon my recent switch to Rosalina I've had more success than i ever have spending much of my game probing with jabs and playing a simple "catch and pitch" game that suits my slow, old man reflexes. Not sure how much is my top tier switch but i certainly played much more sure if myself being patient.

 

[Jalil]

There's also the fact that all of Marth's moves nullify every fruit + hydrant hitbox...

That's not exclusive to disjoints and can be said for almost every move, fruits and hydrants are easy to nullify if you up put out a hitbox at the right time. That's why pacman has to be really creative with placement and option coverage.

 

[Nobie]

I was watching Mew^2 tear through the DFW Weekly last night until his final match against Awestin where he lost, and it got me wondering about whether some characters fatigue the player more. In that last match, it felt as if Mew^2 was reacting much more predictably, and given that it was 12:30am I wouldn't be surprised if this was just a product of being tired. Mewtwo is an unforgiving character if you make mistakes, and in conditions where you're prone to error (e.g. being tired) I could see Mewtwo's effectiveness dropping if all your engines aren't firing.

The commentators also mentioned that another Mega Man player at DFW, SSGuy, was working on becoming a more aggressive Mega Man because the ultra defensive Mega Man style is very taxing on the mind. You slowly pellet the opponent, building up damage, but if you start to get impatient at the wrong time your lead can evaporate easily.

Given the marathon style of pretty much all tournaments, does character fatigue actually present a significant factor?

 

[L9999]

Any fight with a glass cannon is draining. For crappy glass cannons like it's even more draining. They can't approach, so they have to mindgame the opponent if they want to attemp anything, and it gets old really fast. Matchups that are a test of patience are also very draining ((IMO don't bite me please)VS any high tier, VS anyone with greater range, or anyone VS ). And I think that mental draining is a contribution to why is good. Her Witch Time needs to be respected, as such, you cannot risk throwing out a KO move (or any attack for that matter) and expect to live. And if she touches you, you are dead, and she has a projectile to annoy you. So the match goes on and on until cheeses you out or you sluggishly beat her. Then you remember there are more games to go through...

Yes, Bayonetta is a test of your patience and stamina, heck, just watching her is draining. Watch Dabuz VS 9B, is like watching Brawl or VS.