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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Shady Shaymin

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It's in Nintendo's best interest to make cloud relatively good and easy to learn. The whole reason cloud is in the game is to garner hype for FF7 on the NX, and prior to this, Nintendo fans probably didn't care too much for cloud or possibly even didn't recognize him.

Now that we have upwards of a thousand posts from people either discussing his viability, whining about his jankiness, and bodying with him in tournaments, it's safe to say cloud is now a more familiar intellectual property among Nintendo fans, and FF7 is consequently more likely to sell well on the NX.

My prediction is that after M2K two stocks or maybe even beats ZeRo at a national, we'll see more endlag on his aerials and reduced damage output. This is all just a temporary business strategy.
 

Pazzo.

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It's in Nintendo's best interest to make cloud relatively good and easy to learn. The whole reason cloud is in the game is to garner hype for FF7 on the NX, and prior to this, Nintendo fans probably didn't care too much for cloud or possibly even didn't recognize him.

Now that we have upwards of a thousand posts from people either discussing his viability, whining about his jankiness, and bodying with him in tournaments, it's safe to say cloud is now a more familiar intellectual property among Nintendo fans, and FF7 is consequently more likely to sell well on the NX.

My prediction is that after M2K two stocks or maybe even beats ZeRo at a national, we'll see more endlag on his aerials and reduced damage output. This is all just a temporary business strategy.
Come to think of it, Source Gaming did a translation where Sakurai stated that because Cloud was so popular, he made him easy to play.
 
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Planty

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My prediction is that after M2K two stocks or maybe even beats ZeRo at a national, we'll see more endlag on his aerials and reduced damage output. This is all just a temporary business strategy.
You can't be serious.
 

TTTTTsd

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For credibility's sake:

http://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

"I felt a lot of new players would want to try (Cloud) out, so I made him a little easier to use."
-Sakurai
What does that have to do with

A) M2K winning a national
B) viability or balance patching
C) Really baseless theories.

If the point of Cloud is to be incredibly easy than you should expect the opposite of any changes to him that would nerf him lol. He's already doing what he was intended to do.

I mean it's really funny that people can just ignore the outright "We're done developing this game" statement, let alone "I'm glad I can take an EXTENDED VACATION."

I don't even. My head hurts.
 
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Pazzo.

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What does that have to do with

A) M2K winning a national
B) viability or balance patching
C) Really baseless theories.

If the point of Cloud is to be incredibly easy than you should expect the opposite of any changes to him that would nerf him lol. He's already doing what he was intended to do.

I mean it's really funny that people can just ignore the outright "We're done developing this game" statement, let alone "I'm glad I can take an EXTENDED VACATION."

I don't even. My head hurts.
Oh, my bad. I should have highlighted the part in the quote I wanted to respond to.

But yes, Sakurai's done.
 

FullMoon

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Rosalina is probably among the harder even match-ups Greninja has, but I don't believe he loses to her at all.

Dabuz probably doesn't know much about the MU since I don't believe he has fought any good Greninja players since aMSa at EVO, and that was customs.

Incidentally I do get the feeling that Cloud is a bad MU for the frog as well.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Who has an even or favourable matchup with Cloud outside of Sheik and MK (we think it's even)? It seems everyone thinks their main gets bippity-bopped by Sword Mario apart from these two so far.
I think Fox and ZSS are even with Cloud, likely for similar reasons as MK.

On Rosalina:

Anyone find it funny that although she's rated as S tier, only a handful of players use her?
What are you talking about? Rosalina has a pretty strong representation in various regions. The idea that she's carried entirely by dabuz is a myth that has been going on way too long now ...

:059:
 

Y2Kay

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~ Gheb ~ ~ Gheb ~ what do you feel about him calling the rosa : fox MU even? I thought people said it was one of his worst matchups.

:150:
 

Nobie

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Mewtwo does okay against Rosalina because 1) her tallness makes her vulnerable to fair 2) up throw is a thing 3) Shadow Ball gets a free punish on Gravitational Pull 4) Mewtwo is a Luma-killing machine

Watch this match from Rich Brown and just count how many times Mewtwo takes Luma out or at least causes it to tumble. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnMis7eefbg
 

~ Gheb ~

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Zudenka's from Swizerland so he either moved or you're confusing something.

~ Gheb ~ ~ Gheb ~ what do you feel about him calling the rosa : fox MU even? I thought people said it was one of his worst matchups.
Even though he explicitly calls it "fair and even" I'm not sure he actually thinks of it as an even matchup. Let's tag @Dabuz to see if he wants to clarify, I personally thinks Rosalina wins. And yes, most Fox players consider it to be his most difficult matchup but Fox is also ... kinda good so a matchup can simultaneously be close to even and one of his hardest.

:059:
 

Pazzo.

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I think Fox and ZSS are even with Cloud, likely for similar reasons as MK.



What are you talking about? Rosalina has a pretty strong representation in various regions. The idea that she's carried entirely by dabuz is a myth that has been going on way too long now ...

:059:
Glad to hear it then. I suppose I don't keep up enough with smaller tournaments to notice.

Although, I never mentioned Dabuz in my original statement.
 
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Solfiner

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Zudenka lives in Switzerland, there aren't any notable Yoshi's here in Sweden.
 

Jams.

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Don't the Pits have decent matchups with Cloud? The only result I can think of is Tweek vs Nairo, which is admittedly outdated and not fully representative of Cloud's meta, but based on that set it looked like Dark Pit had answers to Cloud's neutral while also being able to pressure off stage.
 

Y2Kay

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And also who said Pit's meta is on life support? It's basically the same as it was before genesis.

:150:
 

ぱみゅ

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I can see Diddy beating Cloud, his neutral is really powerful, he can capitalize on Cloud's disadvantage very well, and it's one of the few characters that is not afraid to face Cloud when he's on limit.
Too bad there's not much high level evidence, off the top of my mind we only have MVD losing a couple times to M2K.
:196:
 

juddy96

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Yeah Zudenka is Swiss. He won the big 226 man Swiss tournament at the end of January, but only placed 33rd at BEAST 6 in Sweden.
 

Djent

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Here's Umeki's MU chart for Peach. I'm particularly interested in Pika being -2 for Peach. Even ESAM put that MU as even.
That is surprising, and for once I agree with ESAM's appraisal. Though TBH I haven't figured out why; it goes noticeably better and feels easier than it did in Brawl. Anyone who isn't sick of talking about Pikachu have ideas?

I was thinking about how, man, people really are up in arms over these DLC characters. They want them nerfed, they think they're ruining the game, that they invalidate half the cast, and the fact that top players are switching to them means the end of the world for certain character metas.

Then I remembered that this happens AFTER A BIG TOURNAMENT, EVERY TIME.

Last week everyone was looking at all of those tournaments and being impressed that the spread of top 3 across all regions was impressively diverse. This week because DLC characters did well it's back to "these characters are killing the diversity of the game!"

...at the same time that characters not placing for like 3 weeks means that their meta is FAILING FAST, GOTTA GET THEM ON LIFE SUPPORT.
This is why projects like Das Koopa Das Koopa 's are so important. The failure mode of results-based thinking is imagining patterns out of noise. It's easy enough to tell a convincing story about how every notable fluctuation represents a drastic shift in the metagame, even though the likihood of observing some drastic fluctuations in performance at any large event is very high. This is a great way to produce false positives. In fact, if any of you have been following current trends in experimental psychology (and sociology...and medicine...and...), you'll already know what I'm talking about. This very problem has led to entire bodies of research that accrue seemingly-compelling evidence, only to later evaporate under slightly different conditions. There are real and profoundly important trends in the metagame, just as there are real effects out there in (bio/psycho/neuro/socio/etc.)logy. But the noise (unexplained variance in outcomes) is often much greater than the trends themselves. If we take the long view of results, which is admittedly hard even when you're aware of these problems, then we'll be able to get our rate of false positives down to an acceptable level. Let's do better than most practicing scientists!

As an aside, this is why I wouldn't bother using game counts within individual sets at all (they should be aggregated across several sets if used at all); they're just too prone to being skewed by unusual interactions. We already have enough problems with using individual sets as "data" already.

And also who said Pit's meta is on life support? It's basically the same as it was before genesis.
Earth used Corrin at his last tournament (Sumabato 7, where he drowned in pools). I'm not sure if it's a permanent thing, but he was never exclusively Pit anyways. This could be one of those things that ultimately winds up being noise. :shades:
 

ArikadoSD

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The fact that Cloud is so momentum based is what helps you weed out his weaker players from his stronger ones easily. I kind of like that, his strengths are just certainly overwhelming. In a game where neutral is the most important state (IMO), the fact that his is so good is what will keep him competitive. I think that's his biggest strength.
Cloud is not momentum based. Sheik is momentum based. Fox is momentum based. Pikachu is momentum based... but not Cloud.

Cloud is more of a comeback character. With Sheik, Fox, and Pikachu, they always have to have a lead. They can't trade, and they MUST take the first stock before they lose theirs, and always keep cool and have stage positioning etc. This is because they're super light and die way earlier than most other characters, and lose every trade. They have to be overwhelming their opponent and not vice versa, otherwise they'll most likely lose.

With Cloud, he can be knocked around but he has limit which can kill people starting 50% and over. He has ridiculously strong moves in fsmash and very decently powerful uair, usmash, dsmash, and bair, and one of the best juggling moves in uair, and all-around amazing aerials with a lot of disjoints. But most importantly.. he has limit. He can be down a stock with the opponent at 50% with two stocks and still make a comeback. Most recent example of this is MVD vs. Mr. R at Shots Fired when MVD switched to Cloud. Mr. R managed to take MVD's first stock with only 44% on him, and then managed to tack on around 90% of extra credit before MVD took the first stock, and when Mr. R came back all it took for MVD were a few stray hits here and there and small 2 hit combos and bam, Sheik's in kill percent of limit, either down b or side b near the ledge.
 

BSP

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What does that have to do with

A) M2K winning a national
B) viability or balance patching
C) Really baseless theories.

If the point of Cloud is to be incredibly easy than you should expect the opposite of any changes to him that would nerf him lol. He's already doing what he was intended to do.

I mean it's really funny that people can just ignore the outright "We're done developing this game" statement, let alone "I'm glad I can take an EXTENDED VACATION."

I don't even. My head hurts.
At some point, did they outright say "no more patches"? This is getting into semantics but I think of development as making new content, like all the DLC we've gotten. A patch now would be refinement or something.

Also very interesting that Dabuz thinks Pac man is as helpless as Luigi is against Rosalina. AFAIK Pac is the only guy who gets mileage off of Rosalina using GP. I'd rather be him than most of the cast in that MU.
 

Jalil

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Dabuz' take on Rosalina's matchups (from his twitter):
His impressions of Rosa vs. top ~15 are looking very reasonable. It should go without saying that past top 15 or so you'll be hard pressed finding players of a similar skill level using those characters, so I think it's fairly likely he'll overrate Rosa's matchups with at least a few of them.
I definitely disagree with him on shulk losing to rosa but I don't think he's fought any good shulks (they're pretty rare/non existent in the u.s.) so I can see why he thinks that.
 

RonNewcomb

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Is the Tweek v Ranai match on the internet somewhere? I assumed it wasn't streamed since SStudios was all Melee...
 

juddy96

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Is the Tweek v Ranai match on the internet somewhere? I assumed it wasn't streamed since SStudios was all Melee...
MVG streamed Smash 4 and put it on their youtube within minutes of matches being over.
 
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ぱみゅ

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At some point, did they outright say "no more patches"? This is getting into semantics but I think of development as making new content, like all the DLC we've gotten. A patch now would be refinement or something.
I find it kind of funny that even if they stated there would be no more patches, at a certain point Sakurai himself "said" (more like, his words were translated as) that he was not planning on DLCs or patches whatsoever.
:196:
 

Das Koopa

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I think you might be right lol. It's either Sweden or Switzerland. juddy96 juddy96 knows.

Das Koopa Das Koopa shouldnt a quarter be 3 months for your list? Or did you just want to do 2 months worth
Since Shots Fired 2 seems to be the last National for Q1, I wanted to go ahead with the list - but I'll add more regionals to the list as they come this month. The Q1 list will be complete before Pound 6, then I'll both add on to it and start a new list so we get four lists that might show the evolution of the year-round meta while also providing a year-long tracker.

One plan is to refine it out a bit more. It might lead to more accurate results to score based on each placement rather than a section of placements and find some way of scoring secondaries in the process.
 

L9999

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That is surprising, and for once I agree with ESAM's appraisal. Though TBH I haven't figured out why; it goes noticeably better and feels easier than it did in Brawl. Anyone who isn't sick of talking about Pikachu have ideas?

This is why projects like Das Koopa Das Koopa
Earth used Corrin at his last tournament (Sumabato 7, where he drowned in pools). I'm not sure if it's a permanent thing, but he was never exclusively Pit anyways. This could be one of those things that ultimately winds up being noise. :shades:
Ugh, please no. All this trend of dropouts and meta killing is getting old...

I definitely disagree with him on shulk losing to rosa but I don't think he's fought any good shulks (they're pretty rare/non existent in the u.s.) so I can see why he thinks that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X4mLhJM-bI
Only thing I could found on the subject. No pros and it's old and the others I found were even older or Jerm beating up some online nobody.
 
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ARGHETH

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I definitely disagree with him on shulk losing to rosa but I don't think he's fought any good shulks (they're pretty rare/non existent in the u.s.) so I can see why he thinks that.
Any reason as to why? He thinks that most of the other swordsman (except for Dark Pit, Cloud, and MK) lose the MU, and I don't see what makes Shulk special.
 

Solfiner

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I could see Shulk Rosa being even. Definitely not "press A button to win". Buster Shulk just destroys Luma and Shulk doesn't have to commit much with MALLCs.
 

juddy96

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Since Shots Fired 2 seems to be the last National for Q1, I wanted to go ahead with the list - but I'll add more regionals to the list as they come this month. The Q1 list will be complete before Pound 6, then I'll both add on to it and start a new list so we get four lists that might show the evolution of the year-round meta while also providing a year-long tracker.

One plan is to refine it out a bit more. It might lead to more accurate results to score based on each placement rather than a section of placements and find some way of scoring secondaries in the process.
Glitch, Shuffle VIII, and Do or DI are all this week.
 

Halifax?

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Balance patches are done if Smash is coming to NX. Dropping the final characters and letting things play out until Smash NX would make for a very meaningful update. Nintendo could tweak things and prepare the port at the same time. Our end of the bargain is to push the meta until then. Prove to the viewers, not to the readers.
 

Y2Kay

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I've learned a few things due to :4bayonetta: and :4cloud:
  • you don't have to have no weaknesses to be broken
  • you don't have to be the best character to be broken
  • charactrs being busted just makes it more satisfying when you beat them with your non-busted character anyway

:150:
 
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