Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Solfiner]

Okay, calling Cloud and Bayo pick up and play I can kinda see, but Corrin? Haha no.

 

[L9999]

Again with the 'unknown' players getting results with Bayonetta. Yea, but the most recent stacked tournament had finals that were Shiek ZSS, and if you think anyone getting results with Bayonetta is 'unknown' then you need to learn your smash history. Or at least stop posting like you know it.


Of course Tweek does better when he isn't playing a low tier. He knows those guys, and they only know his Bowser Jr. He had some upsets, but he is a skilled player who clearly was putting in work for his new character. Its not like he was just playing a FG cloud and Dabuz didn't know what to do.


Anyways, more importantly, it is really cool to see a top player actually utilizing SDI. Nairo getting out of Cloud's fsmash was amazing, and is something most people would have said is impossible before this tournament. Interesting that he used SDI when he knew he was going to be punished, its not like you are doing anything else when you whiff with your character in this game, except maybe holding shield.



I've said it before, but if we were going to nerf shiek (im for it, but have to recognize now that it is unlikely) I think we would just tone down U-airs killing power. As it is, she hits so close to the top of the screen that the moderately powered uair is actually killing before most other characters, and shiek only has her real weakness (trouble killing) if she messes up the 50/50 a few times in a row. Some characters she can have a kill confirm from the throw, and that is ridiculous. Just make it kill 30% later, then she actually has a killing problem and her dominant nuetral isn't so ridiculous. We see Nairo with ZSS abusing her relative lack of a hard punish, since he can go for grabs and the most she can do is a BnB anyways... but it'd be nice if, say, Kirby had this luxury.

Wasn't Uair nerfed already?

 

[link7]

Okay, calling Cloud and Bayo pick up and play I can kinda see, but Corrin? Haha no.

That's what I did with Corrin. Maybe it's because I main a low tier though, I dunno.

 

[ReroRero]

Again with the 'unknown' players getting results with Bayonetta. Yea, but the most recent stacked tournament had finals that were Shiek ZSS, and if you think anyone getting results with Bayonetta is 'unknown' then you need to learn your smash history. Or at least stop posting like you know it.


Of course Tweek does better when he isn't playing a low tier. He knows those guys, and they only know his Bowser Jr. He had some upsets, but he is a skilled player who clearly was putting in work for his new character. Its not like he was just playing a FG cloud and Dabuz didn't know what to do.


Anyways, more importantly, it is really cool to see a top player actually utilizing SDI. Nairo getting out of Cloud's fsmash was amazing, and is something most people would have said is impossible before this tournament. Interesting that he used SDI when he knew he was going to be punished, its not like you are doing anything else when you whiff with your character in this game, except maybe holding shield.



I've said it before, but if we were going to nerf shiek (im for it, but have to recognize now that it is unlikely) I think we would just tone down U-airs killing power. As it is, she hits so close to the top of the screen that the moderately powered uair is actually killing before most other characters, and shiek only has her real weakness (trouble killing) if she messes up the 50/50 a few times in a row. Some characters she can have a kill confirm from the throw, and that is ridiculous. Just make it kill 30% later, then she actually has a killing problem and her dominant nuetral isn't so ridiculous. We see Nairo with ZSS abusing her relative lack of a hard punish, since he can go for grabs and the most she can do is a BnB anyways... but it'd be nice if, say, Kirby had this luxury.

I don't really agree about Uair nerf. Her Uair actually got already nerfed and if she got nerfed again in that move, she would get even more trouble kill making matches even longer to play.

The two only thing that should really be nerfed with Sheik and that could not really impact her game design in a bad way are needles and vanish. Needles are too great for a rushdown character like Sheik, this is one of the best defensive tools in the game in the hand of the best offensive character in the game, that doesn't make sense and that should be fixed.

Vanish should be punishable if the player makes a way too predictable recovery like Fox (no invulnerability frames anymore).

The character will still keep what makes her interesting and the meta would be way more interesting but I can dream... Maybe for the NX version ?

 

[Megamang]

L9999 ReroRero

So? I'm just talking about what I think would be the most fair nerf, without dramatically changing Shiek's playstyle or feel. Sure people may think her 'feel' is getting bs kills on the lower tiers, but I mean besides that.

The nerf/buff history isn't something that should matter when we look at a move to be changed. All that matters is the current properties. If it did 30% and killed at 50% at launch, and we nerfed it to do 15% and kill at 60%, we can't just go 'its been nerfed, didn't work, don't nerf again'.

This probably seems more hostile than I intended it, but I think the Smash community is pretty new to the nerf/buff cycle, and needs to look at more mature games for a deeper understanding. Certain important/central moves will change a lot over time, and not only in the nerf direction. Maybe as people learn to deal with a move more, it can be buffed again. I agree with the sentiment that we should learn to adapt rather than call for changes, but we for the first time had the chance to have those changes. Of course, it seems they are over, at least for the time being, and we must accept what we have.

Maybe I am spoiled, since in SC2:LotV, the developers would consider a 45:55 MU unacceptable. Of course, there are way WAY less MUs to consider, but it certainly feels nice knowing that skill was the major determining factor in almost every competition. I believe this to also be true with smash, but I feel this mostly rings true at the higher end of the tiers. I wish they were brought down in power level to match, say... Hell, for shiek to match the rest of the cast in having bad MUs. The no bad MU thing means we will see migration over time towards her. On the bright side, the lucky top tiers all seem to be able to compete with her at any level, so we don't see pure dominance like we saw with Brawl.

 

[Zelder]

Holy hell please don't start talking about Sheik nerfs again. Do you guys think Sakurai reads this thread or something?

 

[Megamang]

Its pretty important to competitive impressions, but ok. Should we talk about the outdated tier list again?


Or Witch Time?

 

[Yikarur]

lol Bayonetta is not really pick up and play. People need to stop their salt. The character seems massively overrated as well.
And this game seem to not need nerfs right now. (except for Cloud for being too easy and super strong at the same time = bad design)

 

[Zelder]

Its pretty important to competitive impressions, but ok. Should we talk about the outdated tier list again?


Or Witch Time?

Is the entirely circular discussion of "here's how I'D fix this character", that can never be acted on, has been discussed a billion times in this thread alone, and is utterly naval gazing at the end of the day, really important to competitive impressions? Talking about Sheik's strengths is important. Talking about what she does to other characters is important. Hell, even talking about the sodium she creates, and how harmful that can be to a competitive mindset, is important. But unless Sakurai is personally handing you the Smash development reins, then talking about nerfs is tired, it's played out, and it's been done to death.

edit: Basically, let's frame the discussion as "here's why Sheik sucks/is overwhelming/is a troublemaker", not "here's how i would nerf her"

 

[Megamang]

I'll ask the Bayonetta question about Cloud... who are we seeing succeeding with Cloud?

Because from my PoV, it seems to be extremely skilled players, who were able to make low tiers work for a while, able to be among the best in their region before Cloud, or are extremely skilled in every single smash game.

Sure he is simple, but that is a con as well as a pro.

Limit Cross Slash is a stupidly good Clutch Crutch though.

Edit: I have seen the endless circular discussion you mention, so I know what you mean. I still think nerf discussion can be important to understanding what makes a character so centralizing, but I see that is boring to read, especially when all it prompts is other people talking about their ideal nerfs. I'll stop, but I still think the way you went about asking is less productive than anything else. No, im not on the development team, no one here is.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Is the entirely circular discussion of "here's how I'D fix this character", that can never be acted on, has been discussed a billion times in this thread alone, and is utterly naval gazing at the end of the day, really important to competitive impressions? Talking about Sheik's strengths is important. Talking about what she does to other characters is important. Hell, even talking about the sodium she creates, and how harmful that can be to a competitive mindset, is important. But unless Sakurai is personally handing you the Smash development reins, then talking about nerfs is tired, it's played out, and it's been done to death.

I think this thread's symmetry is purely circular if you ask me.

On the note of Cloud, yeah Limit Cross Slash is a good crutch and as long as it has kill power, no matter what is done to it, it will always be that kind of crutch. Just a really damn good tool in general on an already solid kit. That being said, yeah, the players doing best with him are proven to be incredible, M2K was playing DK before which held him back, Tweek was doing the same with Bowser Jr. They've broken their limits and I think the fact that their character isn't a sort of crutch has helped them tremendously. M2K works well with Cloud because of his amazing reaction times and pattern/habit recognition, while Tweek uses a lot of the neutral game stuff he learned from BowJow plus just the general refinements he's made over his time playing, except now he's doing it with a strong, very viable character.

 

[C0rvus]

lol Bayonetta is not really pick up and play. People need to stop their salt. The character seems massively overrated as well.
And this game seem to not need nerfs right now. (except for Cloud for being too easy and super strong at the same time = bad design)

Bayo is definitely not pick up and play, she's pretty damn unintuitive. But Cloud is effectively a more problematic pre-patch Luigi.
Someone said Corrin isn't pick up and play. There isn't a single difficult thing about that character. No that it's a bad thing, but come on.

Edit: I realize the word "problematic" may be a bit hyperbolic. But Cloud is much better than Luigi was, that's for sure. He's a constant threat at every level of play, wheres Luigi was really only an issue at low-mid levels. We will adapt, though.

 

[Big-Cat]

Here's something to chew on. Cloud is supposed to be easy to learn. Does this mean we may see Cloud peak earlier?

 

[Flux0r]

About DLC in general, has the DLC made the game better competitively?

From my standpoint, i would say yes.

With the introduction of three more super-viable characters and two viable ones, there's never been so many top-tiers to choose from, that you should never be complaining about the lack of playstyles that suit you. Dream Land is also an worthy mention.

Pick a top-tier folks. They're hella fun and hella good at the same time.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Here's something to chew on. Cloud is supposed to be easy to learn. Does this mean we may see Cloud peak earlier?

I think the benefit to this is that what he peaks on is a lot more absurd than chars who are also easy to learn. Like, sure he'll peak early but what he has is so good that I don't think it'll matter heavily in the long run, just given what I've seen in the Smash 4 meta so far.

I won't argue against the idea that he will peak earlier, it's just that the peak is so incredible that it's not a problem IMO.

I'm also personally glad Cloud is in this game. As an FF fan I'm happy, but I'm just glad I have a super strong char that actually synergizes with me and how I like to play. This game lacked that for me earlier so I was stuck with just Doc, but Cloud has really made me enjoy this game a lot more.

 

[bc1910]

Corrin is incredibly easy.

The difference is that he's not as good as Bayo or Cloud.

 

[Zelder]

On the subject of Cloud: I don't doubt that he'll be a tournament threat from here till the heat death of Smash 4, but I could see him being the most inconsistent of the top tiers, if only because he has a legitimate weakness in his recovery. It's harder to take advantage of then it should be, and it doesn't hamstring him very much, but in Shots Fired 2, I saw Nairo take out one of M2K's stocks in ~20 seconds because he knocked his second jump out of him. A sobering reminder that Cloud does have a legit weakness. Of course, his incredible strength more than makes up for it, and edge guarding isn't always the easiest thing in Smash 4, but I could see Cloud being the kind of character who either smashes a tournament or ends up drowning in pools due to weird gimps.

 

[|RK|]

Anyways, more importantly, it is really cool to see a top player actually utilizing SDI. Nairo getting out of Cloud's fsmash was amazing, and is something most people would have said is impossible before this tournament. Interesting that he used SDI when he knew he was going to be punished, its not like you are doing anything else when you whiff with your character in this game, except maybe holding shield.

According to ZeRo, that wasn't SDI; F-Smash just hit in such a way that Nairo fell out of it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

On the subject of Cloud: I don't doubt that he'll be a tournament threat from here till the heat death of Smash 4, but I could see him being the most inconsistent of the top tiers, if only because he has a legitimate weakness in his recovery. It's harder to take advantage of then it should be, and it doesn't hamstring him very much, but in Shots Fired 2, I saw Nairo take out one of M2K's stocks in ~20 seconds because he knocked his second jump out of him. A sobering reminder that Cloud does have a legit weakness. Of course, his incredible strength more than makes up for it, and edge guarding isn't always the easiest thing in Smash 4, but I could see Cloud being the kind of character who either smashes a tournament or ends up drowning in pools due to weird gimps.

The fact that Cloud is so momentum based is what helps you weed out his weaker players from his stronger ones easily. I kind of like that, his strengths are just certainly overwhelming. In a game where neutral is the most important state (IMO), the fact that his is so good is what will keep him competitive. I think that's his biggest strength.

 

[Nobie]

I was thinking about how, man, people really are up in arms over these DLC characters. They want them nerfed, they think they're ruining the game, that they invalidate half the cast, and the fact that top players are switching to them means the end of the world for certain character metas.

Then I remembered that this happens AFTER A BIG TOURNAMENT, EVERY TIME.

Last week everyone was looking at all of those tournaments and being impressed that the spread of top 3 across all regions was impressively diverse. This week because DLC characters did well it's back to "these characters are killing the diversity of the game!"

...at the same time that characters not placing for like 3 weeks means that their meta is FAILING FAST, GOTTA GET THEM ON LIFE SUPPORT.

Also, I sometimes feel like Greninja players talk up the bad Sheik matchup more than Bowser or Ganondorf players. Greninja can't do anything, Sheik shuts down all options! Meanwhile Ganondorfs are like, "I'mma boot her in the head yeah."

Last thing: Back to Umeki's Peach matchup chart... Duck Hunt has a +2 against her. Probably Brood's influence, but man, we're so accustomed to the idea that Duck Hunt's bad smashes just make him unusable and here's Japan's top Peach going, "Ugghhh Duck Hunt."

 

[Teshie U]

^The Duck Sword (AKA Fair) is matchup defining. If you don't have a good ground speed, its a very strong tool to keep people out.

 

[Big-Cat]

Bowser and Ganondorf mains just man up and do their best.

 

[C0rvus]

If you don't have good ground speed, Duck Hunt can actually just circle camp you and poke you out with fair. I feel like Japan has a better grasp on the character for sure. Our best and brightest Duck Hunts have mostly given up at this point, but Brood is still at it.

 

[Wintermelon43]

If you don't have good ground speed, Duck Hunt can actually just circle camp you and poke you out with fair. I feel like Japan has a better grasp on the character for sure. Our best and brightest Duck Hunts have mostly given up at this point, but Brood is still at it.

And Yusan too. I wish one of them went to a USA tournament so people stop underrating him and so that we know his full potential

 

[Shady Shaymin]

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think sheik's design is healthy for the smash 4 meta. Yes, like I said, unpopular opinion, but hear me out.

First of all, I love the idea of a character with theoretically positive or even matchups on the entire cast. Everyone in this thread seems so obsessed with the idea of counterpicks and secondaries, and so hung up on the theory talk that is matchup discussion. This is a fighting game, not pokemon smogon OU. You don't deal with something by slapping on a bulky water type, or patching up your team's type weakness. You have to deal with matchups by playing smart. Sheik, to me, embodies this facet of smash. Not everything is a rock paper scissors game of "which character can I counterpick and press buttons to win". You have to play smart. Of course there are appropriate times when a secondary is useful, but numerical matchup ratios are a fraction of what goes on in a match.

I also think sheik's tools just inherently make smash 4 a meta where offense is good. You can't out-lame a sheik. Camp on the other side of the stage throwing out projectiles, and you will just eat needles to the face. Sit in shield for cheap OOS punishes, and watch helplessly as fairs and nairs safely poke away at your bubble.

The best way to beat sheik from my experience is to be as aggressive as possible and capitalize on your advantaged state. Sheik has answers to every approach, but she can't use them all at once, so you're forced to play smart with mixups and win mindgames, something I think is key to a competitive fighting game.

She isn't even as bad as melee fox anyway.

 

[juddy96]

I was thinking about how, man, people really are up in arms over these DLC characters. They want them nerfed, they think they're ruining the game, that they invalidate half the cast, and the fact that top players are switching to them means the end of the world for certain character metas.

Then I remembered that this happens AFTER A BIG TOURNAMENT, EVERY TIME.

Last week everyone was looking at all of those tournaments and being impressed that the spread of top 3 across all regions was impressively diverse. This week because DLC characters did well it's back to "these characters are killing the diversity of the game!"

...at the same time that characters not placing for like 3 weeks means that their meta is FAILING FAST, GOTTA GET THEM ON LIFE SUPPORT.

Also, I sometimes feel like Greninja players talk up the bad Sheik matchup more than Bowser or Ganondorf players. Greninja can't do anything, Sheik shuts down all options! Meanwhile Ganondorfs are like, "I'mma boot her in the head yeah."

Last thing: Back to Umeki's Peach matchup chart... Duck Hunt has a +2 against her. Probably Brood's influence, but man, we're so accustomed to the idea that Duck Hunt's bad smashes just make him unusable and here's Japan's top Peach going, "Ugghhh Duck Hunt."

And that's pretty weird considering the last time Brood entered a tournament... he got eliminated by Umeki.

 

[Jamurai]

Who has an even or favourable matchup with Cloud outside of Sheik and MK (we think it's even)? It seems everyone thinks their main gets bippity-bopped by Sword Mario apart from these two so far.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think greninja does a lot better than a majority of the cast when it comes to Cloud.

No comment on the sheik matchup tho

 

[DanGR]

Dabuz' take on Rosalina's matchups (from his twitter):

Spoiler

His impressions of Rosa vs. top ~15 are looking very reasonable. It should go without saying that past top 15 or so you'll be hard pressed finding players of a similar skill level using those characters, so I think it's fairly likely he'll overrate Rosa's matchups with at least a few of them.

 

[C0rvus]

Those descriptions are money. "press the big green button and it's free" lololol
I'm curious about Mewtwo, and what makes him even rather than Corrin or Yoshi.

 

[bc1910]

Nah, Greninja loses to Cloud.

It's somewhere between Fox and Sonic with how bad it is. Very winnable but not fun. Likely his 3rd worst MU.

Though incidentally I think Greninja/Rosa is even. He has some really good anti-Luma tools including several moves that launch her at 0, some of which are safe on shield. I think Dabuz underrates Greninja quite badly in general, largely because (and I don't mean to call him out, just saying what I see) he isn't very good with Greninja.

I would expect Zero Suit to do well against Cloud. Why worry about Limit when Dthrow is basically a permanent Finishing Touch anyway. Just don't keep hopping around when he Nairs.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm glad Dabuz agrees with me on the Mewtwo matchup. Not many rosa players are willing to admit that he does decently well against her. If used to get heat for proposing that.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Nah, Greninja loses to Cloud.

It's somewhere between Fox and Sonic with how bad it is. Very winnable but not fun. Likely his 3rd worst MU.

I would expect Zero Suit to do well against Cloud. Why worry about Limit when Dthrow is basically a permanent Finishing Touch anyway. Just don't keep hopping around when he Nairs.

I'm pretty sure Cloud's heavy enough to survive a lot of the Boost Kick near the top stuff with good DI. From what I've seen I don't think the MU is very strongly in her favor, M2K really didn't make it look very free.

For reference Cloud was surviving Bayo Uairs at like 75-80 near the top of the blastzone if not inside of it (9B had like 100+% of rage too, M2K's DI is immaculate.)

 

[LancerStaff]

Which good characters does Cloud beat convincingly? To me it seems like he doesn't do extremely well against anybody that doesn't already struggle with swords.

 

[Pazzo.]

On Rosalina:

Anyone find it funny that although she's rated as S tier, only a handful of players use her?

 

[thehard]

I think the way Sheik interacts with rage and the rest of the viable characters is a good fit for this game's competitive scene.

You can choose to play the #1, but only with the knowledge that she's only as good as you are, and can have severe difficulty ending stocks if you don't know your ****, which can lead to https://youtu.be/g0yj7dwvDek?t=6m .

She can be tiring to control too, at least in comparison to others. And especially if you want to utilize all her useful tech.

It never bothers me that ZeRo, VoiD, Mr. R, etc make top spots because I know they've EARNED it. Sheik is... honest really.

 

[Tizio Random]

Dabuz' take on Rosalina's matchups (from his twitter):

Spoiler

His impressions of Rosa vs. top ~15 are looking very reasonable. It should go without saying that past top 15 or so you'll be hard pressed finding players of a similar skill level using those characters, so I think it's fairly likely he'll overrate Rosa's matchups with at least a few of them.

LOL I did a match up chart for Rosa today and the bad match ups are identical to his. Why is Shulk so bad? I think it's a -1 at maximum, maybe top level it's really different. And I think there are way more even matchups and the only +3 Rosalina's matchups are Ness, Samus, Ganondorf and Bowser Jr. But my words against his, I'm a nobody.

 

[C0rvus]

Rosa's definitely a strange bird. She has just as many players as like, Bayonetta, ZSS, etc. I think her style doesn't click with a lot of people, and she's less desirable for someone who wants to play top tier. Meanwhile, if she's the sort of character who fits your style, there are many "cooler" options and there's the ever-present stigma of being both top tier and "cheesey" or just not hype.

 

[BTVolta]

I think Falcon has an even or advantages MU with cloud and I've talked with M2K who mirrored this sentiment but it's been about a month or two since then so I don't if he's changed his opinion since then.

@Dabuz's MU chart
I find it interesting he puts WFT as free but John#s 2-0 xaltis at SF2 and I've seen Waveguider beat Jaice pretty convincingly, but I think he plays John pretty regularly no? Maybe he knows the match up better than other Rosas, so I'll probably have to ask him myself.

 

[L9999]

Dabuz' take on Rosalina's matchups (from his twitter):

Spoiler

His impressions of Rosa vs. top ~15 are looking very reasonable. It should go without saying that past top 15 or so you'll be hard pressed finding players of a similar skill level using those characters, so I think it's fairly likely he'll overrate Rosa's matchups with at least a few of them.

Interesting to see that Dabuz thinks Ness-Rosalina isn't 100% garbage.