Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

When you say "-3," do you mean 30:70 or 35:65? I mean 35:65.

Wouldn't that mean it's -2.5 then? x5:x5 MU ratios... >_>

 

[Jalil]

That wasn't the point of Emblem Lord's post.

His "point" was just him dismissing what greninja players are saying about a mu cuz apparently we haven't been trainin hard enough. Sheik still murks greninja and unless anyone plays or has extensive knowledge on either character then their opinion on the mu is irrelevant.
Unless there's some secret technique greninja hasn't been utilizing against her, i don't see the mu (regardless if its a -2, -3 or whatever) getting better. Considering how common sheik is i think its time for greninja players to pick up secondaries.

 

[Djmarcus44]

When you say "-3," do you mean 30:70 or 35:65? I mean 35:65.

According to most people, a -3 means 20:80, but some people consider it a 35:65. Since people haven't fully agreed on whether a +1 means 10% above even or 5% above even, I personally prefer using the ratio instead.

 

[Smog Frog]

**** matchup ratios.

just say (very)hard, (very)easy, or can't really tell. are numbers that important?

 

[Pyr]

According to most people, a -3 means 20:80, but some people consider it a 35:65. Since people haven't fully agreed on whether a +1 means 10% above even or 5% above even, I personally prefer using the ratio instead.

And this is the reason people shouldn't try to condense an entire matchup to a single number or ratio when there isn't a clear-cut way to determine it. Too subjective and it ends up hurting discussion infinitely more then it helps... Mostly because no real discussion happens after it.


One man's -4 is the other's 55:45.

 

[Dabuz]

Dabuz is the only top Rosalina to not lose to MK. Dabuz has a special factor where he dodges good MKs and cleans off the scrubs. I guarantee Dabuz will never play Abadango because of his powers.

Rayquaza got beaten hard by Katakiri. Kirihara lost to Abadango convincingly. Falln loses to Tyrant and Ito. Xaltis doesn't go Rosa vs Seibrik to my knowledge. Don't know what Rosa's worry about, MKs rep isn't even high. It never was. Everyone pockets Cloud now so no pocket MKs to scare them not like it works since they don't lab the MU or the character even.

I manipulate brackets well Kappa

/S

 

[Emblem Lord]

Gregs is okay. Nothing special but pretty good. iStudy recently beat his Bayo with Corrin. I'd say it's one player outplaying the other more than anything.



It's not as simple as "shurikens don't work". Needles go through shurikens, but that also means shurikens go through needles. Greninja's uncharged shurikens deal more damage than a single needle. Put the two characters in training mode and mash B with both, Greninja will actually win the camping war until he gets pushed out of range. This isn't to say he will win a real camping war due to needles' charge capabilities, but shurikens are still good against Sheik.

Sheik's aerial frame data is the reason why this is such a bad MU for Greninja. She doesn't have to respect an aerial Greninja like nearly every other character, she just slaps him away with Fair. Incidentally this is why Marth is iffy for Greninja at times.

That said, I think the focus needs to shift back to the ranged game in this MU. I see most Greninja players try to approach Sheik with shield and I'm like, why. Our OoS game is our biggest weakness and you're just inviting Sheik to murder you with grabs or Fair pressure. Play the mid/long range game, take a few needles. Sheik is going to hit you. It's better for her to hit you with needles than one of her combo starters. Sheik cannot shoot needles in an endless barrage, you will get some shurikens in.

Also, once you get hit with needles at high percent and get launched, charging a shuriken and drifting back to the ground is actually a really good option and a better one than most characters have once hit with needles at high percent.

Fair is the worst thing about this MU. Needles are more manageable. The future of the MU lies with working out how to contest needles IMO, not trying to win a close range game that the numbers just won't let you win.

Maybe I'm saying nothing new here. And I'm not suggesting that Greninja players haven't been doing anything to crack this MU because that's blatantly not true, iStudying is definitely leading the cause. But I feel some players are content with saying "this MU sucks" and are now done with it. It's a tad early for that.

Sage of the ninja frogs.

Dats ya name

 

[Nobie]

ZSS vs ROB and Rosalina vs. Ness are -3 matchups on the basis of the advantage/disadvantage states, so it's more clearly a -3. You see Ness offstage getting insta-gimped by Rosalina's down-b and you're like "wow, that's stupid, -3." Natural reaction.

Greninja vs. Sheik is -3 (probably it's only -2 but hey, I'm not one to argue numbers, just offering perspective) not because of disadvantage but because of neutral, so the loss is a lot subtler.

Forget the theory for a second, and forget real matches that you've seen. Put yourself in the Greninja's shoes (webbed feet?). You've just started playing game 1 of a set vs. a top-ranked Sheik. Stage is like, idk, Smashville or Town and City or FD, whatever. Match starts, Sheik begins charging Needles. What do you do?

A) Throw Shrukens. Needles are transcendent, so this won't work.
B) Approach using a short hop aerial or tomahawk (using dashgrab because standing grab is lol). You're going to get f-aired for your trouble, Greninja's fastest aerial is his b-air iirc, and Sheik's not scared of your empty hop.
C) Approach using shield. Hello, bad OOS options, meet Sheik's ridiculously rewarding throw combos. Your shield is going to get jab1, jab2d, followed by a grab.
D) Use your mobility to weave in and out of Sheik's range until you can get a dash attack or dash grab going, all the while blocking needles on reaction. Only, hey, Sheik's weaving is even better, with the best options out of dash in the game, so somehow your higher mobility specs don't actually matter, and you just get grabbed a whole heck of a lot.
E) SD twice and pick another character.

When E actually looks just as promising as A, B, C, and D, you've got a pretty grim matchup on your hands.

God, why do I not main Sheik?

I'm not a Greninja but am I crazy if my immediate response was "walk forward" and my second was "something different each time?"

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm not a Greninja but am I crazy if my immediate response was "walk forward" and my second was "something different each time?"

That's some street fighter stuff you're saying

 

[Y2Kay]

**** matchup ratios.

just say (very)hard, (very)easy, or can't really tell. are numbers that important?

Well people like numbers because they aren't as subjective as words and language, but sometimes numbers can get confusing too, as numbers' relative value can change, just like a word's relative meaning can change.

 

[HFlash]

It's not the most preposterous thing to say a character has a really bad MU on another character in a game as diverse as smash 4 is. Nothing is stopping greninja mains or any mid or below tier character from playing additional characters to compensate. This is rarely seen at top level play (because top players tend to play very good characters) but Nairo comes to mind. Nairo absolved alot of his Pikachu issues with ESAM by just picking up Dr. Mario.

 

[Seagull Joe]

A lot of people would question your post right at the point you said "great matchup spread." Pikachu does NOT have the matchup spread of a high tier.

55-45 AT BEST. I don't get how some people are arguing the MU is even. Sheik still wins neutral and can combo Pikachu hard. Meanwhile, Pikachu can't kill the girl and has to work hard to hit her recovery. Sheik beats Pikachu in neutral, frame data, combos, and KOing ability. It's easily 60-40, and I question whether Pikachu is one of the best picks vs Sheik, as some say.

possible even, but again, results are currently favoring these two characters. I'd say ZSS beats Pika, if only for her early KOing ability, though her average neutral means it will never be as bad as Sheik.

Pikachu loses. MK is pretty obvious: early KO setups, and an effectively untouchable recovery. As I said in another post, Tyrant and Jband have beaten ESAM even though ESAM was outplaying them. Mario has been done to death. Finally, Fox's neutral is on par with Pika's, and his up air juggles do death as in every other MU, along with good KO setups into up smash. Diddy probably wins neutral, and has reliable KOing ability with his banana and d tilt into his smashes. To Pikachu's merit, aside from MK, these characters have exploitable recoveries (though a good player will learn to mix these up).

I'll be honest, I don't have much knowledge about these, but I'd guess Pikachu loses against Bayo and Ryu and is even with Sonic and Cloud. Cloud outranges Pikachu and has his early limit KO's, but OTOH, he should get destroyed by Pika offstage. Ryu has excellent frame data and KO setups, but a still exploitable recovery. DJ Jack has taken at least a set off ESAM. Idk about Bayo, still too early to say, though I expect it is in her favor. She's difficult to edgeguard and has crazy KO setups, but she likely has difficulty dealing with QA.

Edit: compare Pika's MU's to some other top 10's. Sheik is Sheik, let's be fair. ZSS loses slightly only to Sheik. Rosa loses badly only to ZSS and MK. MK loses badly only to Sheik. Mario loses to MK. Diddy loses to Rosa. Ryu loses to Sheik and (maybe) MK. You see it, yet? Most other top 10's lose only in one or two MU's.

TL; DR Pikachu arguably goes even with Sonic, but then loses to everyone else in the top 10, among others. The only relevant character Pikachu solidly counters is Falcon, and even Falcon is slowly losing ground at the high level, making this MU less significant. That said, how can anyone argue and say Pikachu has a "great" MU spread, let alone top 5? PIkachu is NOT a top 5 character, neither in theory nor results, and is very debatably top 10.

is positive or even with . also beats . vs is def even. The rest is up for debate.

Sonic doesn't lose to Cloud though. Neither ZSS. 6WX hasn't been having good results lately. He is an amazing Sonic, but maybe he is just getting rust. Those MU are even. I can also say that Mario is the most even match up with Sonic. Mario has the tools to combo Sonic for days, but Sonic just comes backs with his damage racking and good edgeguarding game. Ally is really 6WX rival. And Ally just has a plan for any Sonic strategy that he encounters.

Sonic really loses to Rosalina, Ike and Yoshi though.

loses to both and .

 

[David Viran]

It's not the most preposterous thing to say a character has a really bad MU on another character in a game as diverse as smash 4 is. Nothing is stopping greninja mains or any mid or below tier character from playing additional characters to compensate. This is rarely seen at top level play (because top players tend to play very good characters) but Nairo comes to mind. Nairo absolved alot of his Pikachu issues with ESAM by just picking up Dr. Mario.

Nairo's doc has beaten esam's pika in 1 set. Last time he tried doc he lost the first two games and then ended up clutching the set anyway with zss at G3. It's something that appeared to only work once.

 

[HFlash]

I was referring to the MLG set between the two, and as of right now, Nairo is playing better than ESAM (or anyone not named zero), hands down. Maybe it wasn't the best example as ZSS vs Pika is no where near as bad as Greninja vs Shiek, but the point remains. I don't believe Nairo has taken a set off of ESAM prior to MLG right?

 

[David Viran]

Part of the reason he never took a set prior was because they only played in one other tournament pre MLG which was smash con (both sets game 5 BTW). Another one is esam knows that MU better than maybe anybody, bar maybe zero, due to all the practice against nick riddle. I wouldn't say nairo has that kind of knowledge in that MU like esam. I thought the point was to get a secondary that can be more of a lasting solution not just a one time thing. Just pointing out that it may not be the best example.

 

[ARGHETH]

I was referring to the MLG set between the two, and as of right now, Nairo is playing better than ESAM (or anyone not named zero), hands down. Maybe it wasn't the best example as ZSS vs Pika is no where near as bad as Greninja vs Shiek, but the point remains. I don't believe Nairo has taken a set off of ESAM prior to MLG right?

His ZSS has a better record against ESAM's Pikachu (6-5) than his Doc does (4-5) right now.
(ZSS: 2-3 and 1-2 at SSC, 3-0 at G3; Doc: 1-3 and 3-0 at MLG, 0-2 at G3)

 

[Das Koopa]

Update; I've compiled and researched 9 of the 10 150+ entrant regionals that were posted. Some of these results (Tampa Never Sleeps is a large offender here) don't even have Smash.gg brackets, which made research difficult, though video/smasher searches helped me compile the results.

For the life of me, however, I found no documentation on Smashboards, Challonge, Smash.gg, or any website mentioning a national Swiss tournament. If anybody has a link, I'll research it and see if I can locate VODs or a way to identify player mains of people who participated in the tourney.

Next part is scoring.

 

[Jaguar360]

Update; I've compiled and researched 9 of the 10 150+ entrant regionals that were posted. Some of these results (Tampa Never Sleeps is a large offender here) don't even have Smash.gg brackets, which made research difficult, though video/smasher searches helped me compile the results.

For the life of me, however, I found no documentation on Smashboards, Challonge, Smash.gg, or any website mentioning a national Swiss tournament. If anybody has a link, I'll research it and see if I can locate VODs or a way to identify player mains of people who participated in the tourney.

Next part is scoring.

I don't know about the Swiss tournament, but the bracket for TNS is here to make things easier for you: http://challonge.com/TNS6S4S

Incomplete however. I'm fairly sure that MVD beat NickRiddle if that helps.

 

[ARGHETH]

Update; I've compiled and researched 9 of the 10 150+ entrant regionals that were posted. Some of these results (Tampa Never Sleeps is a large offender here) don't even have Smash.gg brackets, which made research difficult, though video/smasher searches helped me compile the results.

For the life of me, however, I found no documentation on Smashboards, Challonge, Smash.gg, or any website mentioning a national Swiss tournament. If anybody has a link, I'll research it and see if I can locate VODs or a way to identify player mains of people who participated in the tourney.

Next part is scoring.

I found something called Super Smash Saga 2, which apparently happened on December 19th-20th in Switzerland...No idea about much else, though, or if it's even what you're talking about.
Relevant Website
Grand Finals

 

[Das Koopa]

I don't know about the Swiss tournament, but the bracket for TNS is here to make things easier for you: http://challonge.com/TNS6S4S

Incomplete however. I'm fairly sure that MVD beat NickRiddle if that helps.

The tourney results (not the bracket, though) were on the TNS website, which allowed me to just look at MVG's vods/youtube to extrapolate who used who.

 

[Y2Kay]

Smog Frog frog yeah this is how I usually approah MU charts:

Spoiler: my chart (pre-BEAST6)

Sage of the ninja frogs.

Dats ya name

So what does that make me?

 

[wm1026]

I feel like what greninja mains are gonna do is the 20 anniversary of Pokemon slogan #trainon

(Couldn't resist)

 

[RaptorTEC]

12 characters in winners, 21 total.

Yet no , nor recent darlings , nor .

There were literally no good Yoshi mains at this. Not one

 

[juddy96]

Update; I've compiled and researched 9 of the 10 150+ entrant regionals that were posted. Some of these results (Tampa Never Sleeps is a large offender here) don't even have Smash.gg brackets, which made research difficult, though video/smasher searches helped me compile the results.

For the life of me, however, I found no documentation on Smashboards, Challonge, Smash.gg, or any website mentioning a national Swiss tournament. If anybody has a link, I'll research it and see if I can locate VODs or a way to identify player mains of people who participated in the tourney.

Next part is scoring.

http://gamfed.challonge.com/SC16WiiU

Don't worry about it though lol, Switzerland is a B-tier European country for Smash 4. The winner ended up getting 33rd at BEAST 6. You probably shouldn't include it.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

There were literally no good Yoshi mains at this. Not one

Even if there were, would they have gotten any notable results? Weren't there a solid number of good Yoshis at G3, but weren't the results not the greatest? There hasn't been anything notable from Yoshi in quite a while (dare I say ever). Yoshi's a solid character but the same applies to at least 80% of the cast.

 

[ARGHETH]

Even if there were, would they have gotten any notable results? Weren't there a solid number of good Yoshis at G3, but weren't the results not the greatest? There hasn't been anything notable from Yoshi in quite a while (dare I say ever). Yoshi's a solid character but the same applies to at least 80% of the cast.

Raptor and The Wall both got 49th, same as 9B, Nick Riddle, Abadango, and Xaltis.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Raptor and The Wall both got 49th, same as 9B, Nick Riddle, Abadango, and Xaltis.

I suppose that's something. Wouldn't call it particularly notable per se, but it's definitely something when you consider how stacked G3 really was. I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that Yoshi has dropped and will probably continue to drop, but by how much is yet to be determined. He's got so many good tools for him to seem to be low tier, but at the same time there are some low tiers doing a bit more notable things than he has. Quite the tricky character to place.

 

[Jucchan]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Here's Umeki's MU chart for Peach. I'm particularly interested in Pika being -2 for Peach. Even ESAM put that MU as even.

 

[Nobie]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Here's Umeki's MU chart for Peach. I'm particularly interested in Pika being -2 for Peach. Even ESAM put that MU as even.

Didn't some other player list G&W as a disadvantageous matchup recently? Is G&W like some secret slayer of random characters or something?

 

[momochuu]

he's out of his mind if he thinks greninja has a -1 against peach lol

 

[FallofBrawl]

I've had tough times against Game and Watch with my Mario, his lightness gets out of the dthrow combos quicker, he can get more damage throw comboing me than vice-versa.

Game and Watch edgeguarding scares me, and his aerials, particularly bair, outranges all the useful Mario aerials in neutral.

Fireball strat doesn't work either so it's hard to land when you're higher up, you can punish his bucket but I personally wouldn't throw fireballs in the first place.

Basically GDubs has better throw reward, kill confirms, edgeguarding and can land on his butt safer than Mario can.

If he wasn't light, it'd be -2 for Mario, but thank Sakurai he is, so -1

EDIT: Game and Watch has advantageous MUs vs (maybe after nerfs)

 

[Jucchan]

Didn't some other player list G&W as a disadvantageous matchup recently? Is G&W like some secret slayer of random characters or something?

ESAM put G&W as 45:55. In this Pikachu vs G&W crew battle G&W won all 7 games, so I guess that's something? Also ESAM lost to Regi in the Genesis crew battle iirc.

 

[my_T]

Didn't some other player list G&W as a disadvantageous matchup recently? Is G&W like some secret slayer of random characters or something?

1) bucket...demands ultimate respect from characters that use energy based or explosive projectiles

2) solid edge guarding and recovery

3) solid frame data for his normals considering they're disjointed. Hard to punish (if punishable at all) if spaced well; especially for characters that are generally slow frame data wise or have little range

 

[juddy96]

More sad news from Japan today, Tea, their top Pac-Man, has switched to Bayonetta.

 

[Djmarcus44]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Here's Umeki's MU chart for Peach. I'm particularly interested in Pika being -2 for Peach. Even ESAM put that MU as even.

I am not sure why he has Peach as a +1 against Gunner. Gunner wins the neutral convincingly with fair and edgeguards Peach very well. Gunner also does a good job of juggling Peach by using gundashing up tilt or up smash or charge blast to keep Peach from landing. Gunner also lives longer in this matchup since Gunner is heavier than Peach by a considerable amount. In fact, Peach's infinite doesn't even work on Gunner. In my personal experience, it seems like a slightly favorable matchup for Gunner.

 

[FallofBrawl]

As a big fan of Tea and his amazing hydrant + key strat, that is extremely sad to hear.

 

[Yonder]

More sad news from Japan today, Tea, their top Pac-Man, has switched to Bayonetta.

With Tweek exchanging Bowser Jr for Cloud, I think dropping lower tiers for higher one is more of a recurring trend now. Patched are 99% most likely to be done, so there's no banking on a big enough buff to become viable (DK cargo throw, Ike all around buffs) while the top tiers and viable characters have little to no change of being nerfed for the worst.

Maybe now is the time the metagame evolves to a point where everyone but the top 7 or so are phased out. Personally I think it will hold out longer and some characters are seeing notable results (Greninja, TL, M2 to a lesser extent) but the ultimate change to everyone going to the top dog characters may strike the mindsets quicker than we expect. It goes from a pocket Cloud to soon, a main as the stakes rise and the games mechanics are fine tuned and learned by each player to a point where character choice will be the biggest determining factor, next to skill.

I like the diverse metagame we have going right now so I'm privy to it staying longer, for the (irrelevant tbh) viewers like myself who don't play at the top level.

 

[Bobert]

Geez, a lot of people are dropping their mains for Cloud and Bayonetta it seems. Tweek, Salem, 9B, M2K(if you counted him as a true DK main), Komorikiri, and now Tea.

The year is 20-5.99. Everybody plays Cloud and Bayonetta at TAS levels of perfection.

 

[juddy96]

In Japan it really doesn't matter much though, because they don't play for money, it's all pride. And Komorikiri was planning on maining Bayonetta the minute he saw she was in the game, regardless of how good she would be.

 

[bc1910]

Cloud realy makes me wonder why they even bothered to touch luigi and diddy if they were going to release the same thing again a few months later.

Sm4sh DLC: $5.99 to relive your nightmares.