Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[iVoltage]

Sm4sh DLC: $5.99 to relive your nightmares.

The year is 5.99, where a throw combo can include a non damaging move, and you can bend time as you will. #ripsm4sh bow to our pay to win overloads.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Can we please stop with the joke attempts and focus on discussion?
Like, this next weekend there will be at least two promising events (their names elude me tho)

 

[Das Koopa]

TIER LIST Q1 2016 (Results-based: January 1st-March 7th.)

Scoring system revised: Scores are by tournament type. Of the 16 used, I categorized them into Regionals, Nationals, and Supermajors.

Regionals:
13th-9th: 1 Point
7th-5th: 2 Points
4th-1st: 3 Points

...With each rising type granting one more point. So, at a supermajor, 1-4 would all be given 5 points, 7th-5th would be given 4, 13th-9th would be given 3, etc. This basically equates a regional win with the ability to top 16 at a Supermajor, which is fair, if not overestimating the regional winner in question. By entrants and skill pool, GENESIS 3 is the first and only Supermajor so far this year, with upcoming tournaments like CEO, EVO, TBH6, SSC6, and Paragon to be the next few.

Tournaments used:

Spoiler

Regional:
-KTAR XVI (January 9th)
-2GGT: ESAM Saga (January 9th)
-2GGT: The False Awakens (January 30th)
-Sumabato 7 (February 11th)
-Umebara 21 (February 11th)
-Frostbite (February 13th)
-KTAR XVII (February 13th)
-Landlocked (February 20th)
-GUMS 6 (February 27th)
-2GGT: EE Saga (February 27th)
-Tampa Never Sleeps 6 (February 27th)

National:
-Dismantle 2 (January 2nd-3rd)
-PAX Arena (January 29th-31st)
-B.E.A.S.T 6 (February 19th-21st)
-Shots Fired 2 (March 5th-6th)

Supermajor:
-GENESIS 3 (January 15th-17th)

Results, compiled, in case my model sucks and it needs to be redone: (Huge text list in spoiler.)

Spoiler

REGIONALS:

Frostbite:
1st: Ally (Mario)
2nd: Zinoto (Diddy Kong, Meta Knight)
3rd Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
4th: Ksev (Fox)
5th: jt5565 (Sonic)
5th: Fatality (Captain Falcon)
7th: DkWill (Donkey Kong)
7th: Katakiri (Meta Knight)
9th: Dan (Mario)
9th: JJROCKETS (Diddy Kong)
9th: Nite (Rosalina)
9th: TekNo (Sheik)
13th: Demitus (Meta Knight)
13th: XeroXen (Mario)
13th: Serge (Lucario)
13th: Swanky (Diddy Kong)

2GGT: ESAM Saga
1st: ZeRo (Sheik, Diddy Kong)
2nd: VoiD (Sheik)
3rd: K9 (Sheik)
4th: Tyrant (Meta Knight)
5th: Larry Lurr (Fox)
5th: ESAM (Pikachu)
7th: Johnny Westside (Samus)
7th: Falln (Rosalina)
9th: SCB Markus (Sheik)
9th: Aphro (Rosalina)
9th: SM (Ike)
9th: Zenyou (Mario, Sheik)
13th: TLTC (Palutena)
13th: S2H (Meta Knight)
13th: ViceGrip (Bowser Jr.)
13th: Elegant (Luigi)

2GGT: The False Awakens
1st: Tyrant (Meta Knight, Sheik)
2nd: False (Sheik, Ryu)
3rd: Larry Lurr (Fox, Donkey Kong)
4th: Trela (Ryu)
5th: Zenyou (Mario, Sheik)
5th: ImHip (Olimar, Duck Hunt)
7th: KOSSismoss(Mr. Game & Watch)
7th: Falln (Rosalina)
9th: Tearbear (Captain Falcon)
9th: Aphro (Rosalina)
9th: Nicko (Cloud)
9th: WiiGi (R.O.B)
13th: Johnny Westside (Samus)
13th: Angbad (Olimar)
13th: S2H (Meta Knight)
13th: Xzax (Fox)

2GGT: EE Saga
1st: ZeRo (Sheik, Diddy Kong)
2nd: Larry Lurr (Fox, Donkey Kong, Corrin)
3rd: VoiD (Sheik)
4th: Falln (Rosalina, Kirby)
5th: Xzax (Fox)
5th: K9 (Sheik)
7th: Mr. ConCon (Luigi)
7th: Aphro (Bayonetta)
9th: SM (Ike)
9th: Zenyou (Sheik, Mario)
9th: Aarvark (Villager)
9th: S2H (Meta Knight)
13th: NCJacobT (Ryu, Pikachu, Bayonetta)
13th: Tyrant (Meta Knight)
13th: IC (Diddy Kong)
13th: TNF Douglas (Olimar)

Tampa Never Sleeps 6:
1st: Mew2King (Cloud)
2nd: Seibrik (Meta Knight)
3rd: MVD (Diddy Kong)
4th: Oni Day (Lucario)
5th: DJ Jack (Ryu)
5th: Nick Riddle (Zero Suit Samus)
7th: Myran (Olimar)
7th: PrinceRamen (Palutena)
9th: 8BitMan (R.O.B)
9th: Saj (Bayonetta)
9th: Noble Sol (Little Mac)
9th: Heero/Static Manny (Sonic)
13th: Ryo (Ike, Corrin)
13th: Master Raven (Sheik)
13th: Eden (Fox)
13th: Josh (Diddy Kong)

GUMS 6
1st: Marss (Zero Suit Samus)
2nd: Raffl-X (R.O.B)
3rd: Mr. E (Marth)
4th: BelaC (Sheik)
5th: Ling Ling (Peach)
5th: Waldo (Ike)
7th: Raptor (Yoshi)
7th: Ribs (Ness)
9th: Pugwest (Marth)
9th: Mtn64 (Villager)
9th: BabyJay (Mario)
9th: Suarsuar (Sheik)
13th: Craftis (Sonic)
13th: IceArrow (Greninja)
13th: Kuma (Sonic)
13th: Jakamu (Zero Suit Samus)

Landlocked:
1st: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Ryuga (Corrin)
3rd: Dabuz (Rosalina)
4th: Ally (Mario, Cloud)
5th: Demitus (Meta Knight)
5th: NiTe (Rosalina)
7th: Taka (Captain Falcon)
7th: Dan (Mario)
9th: Ksev (Fox)
9th: Tyroy (Sheik)
9th: Absol (Sheik)
9th: Sofa King (Luigi)
13th: Krow (Olimar)
13th: Katakiri (Meta Knight)
13th: XeroXen (Mario)
13th: Leather (Bayonetta)

Umebara 21:
1st: Rain (Sheik, Cloud)
2nd: Hayato (Toon Link)
3rd: Nietono (Sheik)
4th: Nariyasu (Mario, Cloud)
5th: Nyanko (Bayonetta)
5th: Elm (Sheik)
7th: Umeki (Peach)
7th: Kamemushi (Cloud, Mega Man)
9th: Choco (ZSS)
9th: Abandango (Meta Knight)
9th: Shu (Sheik)
9th: BROOD (Duck Hunt)
13th: KEN (Sonic)
13th: Yuzu (Rosalina)
13th: Manzoku (Toon Link)
13th: Paseriman (Sheik, Pit, Toon Link, Fox)

Sumabato 7
1st: Komoikiri (Bayonetta)
2nd: Sigma (Toon Link)
3rd: Gomamugitya (Lucario)
4th: Atelier (Rosalina)
5th: Aki (Sheik, Ryu, Falco)
5th: Saiya (Captain Falcon)
7th: MASA (Ness)
7th: Nagahari (Diddy Kong)
9th: Rin (Wii Fit Trainer)
9th: HIKARU (Donkey Kong)
9th: Macho (Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong)
9th: Shogun (Fox)
13th: 9B (Bayonetta)
13th: Masahi (Cloud)
13th: J! (Sheik)
13th: Yuman (Sheik, Cloud)

KTAR XVI
1st: Nairo (Zero Suit Samus)
2nd: Dabuz (Rosalina)
3rd: False (Sheik, Ryu)
4th: Venom (Ryu)
5th: Angel Cortes (Diddy Kong)
5th: Mr. E (Sheik, Marth)
7th: Frozen (Rosalina)
7th: 6WX (Sonic)
9th: Blue (Sonic)
9th: John Numbers (Wii Fit Trainer)
9th: Jtails (Diddy Kong)
9th: Avalon (Sheik)
13th: C3PO (Diddy Kong)
13th: Chaos (Bowser)
13th: Ribs (Ness)
13th: Camalange (Sonic)

KTAR XVII
1st: Marss (Zero Suit Samus)
2nd: Salem (Bayonetta)
3rd: Tweek (Cloud)
4th: James (Cloud)
5th: Raptor (Yoshi)
5th: Pugwest (Marth)
7th: Vex Kasrani (Donkey Kong)
7th: Jatils (Diddy Kong)
9th: 6WX (Sonic)
9th: Jack777 (Zero Suit Samus)
9th: Ling Ling (Peach)
9th: Nelvin (Diddy Kong)
13th: CaptAwesum (Villager)
13th: Dabuz (Bayonetta)
13th: Blue (Mewtwo)
13th: C3PO (Diddy Kong)

NATIONALS

Dismantle 2
1st: Nairo (Zero Suit Samus, Robin)
2nd: Dabuz (Rosalina)
3rd: Ally (Mario)
4th: DKwill (Donkey Kong)
5th: Vinnie (Sheik)
5th: MJG (Villager)
7th: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
7th: Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
9th: MVD (Diddy Kong)
9th: LOE1 (Luigi)
9th: Dan (Mario)
9th: ***** (Toon Link)
13th: Demitus (Meta Knight)
13th: XeroXen (Mario)
13th: JTWild (Mario)
13th: SETHsational (Captain Falcon)

PAX Arena
1st: ZeRo (Sheik, Diddy Kong)
2nd: VoiD (Sheik)
3rd: Vinnie (Sheik, Rosalina)
4th: FOW (Ness)
5th: JBandrew (Meta Knight)
5th: Anti (Mario, Rosalina, Sheik)
7th: Nakat (Ness, Fox, Pikachu)
7th: ESAM (Pikachu)
9th: Mew2King (Cloud)
9th: MJG (Diddy Kong, Villager)
9th: Karna (Sheik)
9th: KJ (Sonic)
13th: Dakpo (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: MegaFox (Fox)
13th: Wizzrobe (Sheik)
13th: Mikeffect (Ness)

B.E.A.S.T. 6:
1st: Mr. R. (Sheik)
2nd: iStudying (Greninja)
3rd: ESAM (Pikachu)
4th: MVD (Diddy Kong)
5th: Light (Sheik)
5th: Wilksy15 (Rosalina)
7th: S1-14 (Ness)
7th: Sodrek (Fox)
9th: Cyve (Diddy Kong)
9th: Ixis (Sonic)
9th: Izaw (Link)
9th: VyQ (Mario)
13th: Hazemoky (Cloud)
13th: LoNg0uw (R.O.B)
13th: Luigi player (Luigi)
13th: Robo-Luigi (R.O.B.)

Shots Fired 2
1st: Nairo (Zero Suit Samus)
2nd: Mr. R (Sheik)
3rd: Tweek (Cloud)
4th: Dabuz (Rosalina)
5th: Mew2King (Cloud)
5th: 9B (Bayonetta)
7th: K9 (Sheik)
7th: Anti (Mario, Sheik)
9th: Ranai (Villager)
9th: Salem (Bayonetta)
9th: Ryo (Corrin, Ike)
9th: Ally (Mario)
13th: ESAM (Pikachu)
13th: Hyuga (Toon Link)
13th: 6WX (Sonic)
13th: MVD (Diddy Kong)

SUPERMAJORS:

GENESIS 3:
1st: ZeRo (Sheik, Diddy Kong)
2nd: Dabuz (Rosalina)
3rd: Ranai (Villager)
4th: VoiD (Sheik)
5th: FOW (Ness)
5th: Nairo (Zero Suit Samus)
7th: Marss (Zero Suit Samus)
7th: Larry Lurr (Fox, Sheik, Donkey Kong)
9th: Hyuga (Toon Link)
9th: Ally (Mario)
9th: Shaky (Ness)
9th: Mr. R. (Sheik)
13th: 6WX (Sonic)
13th: Earth (Pit)
13th: Tyrant (Meta Knight)
13th: ESAM (Pikachu)

Final results, raw:

Spoiler

January 1st-March 7th 2016: (Q1)

Sheik: 112
Diddy Kong: 54
Rosalina: 47
Mario: 42
Zero Suit Samus: 36
Cloud: 34
Meta Knight: 31
Fox: 30
Ness: 24
Sonic: 20
Bayonetta: 19
Donkey Kong: 19
Pikachu: 18
Villager: 17
Ryu: 17
Toon Link: 15
Corrin: 9
R.O.B: 9
Captain Falcon: 9
Marth: 8
Luigi: 8
Ike: 7
Lucario: 7
Olimar: 7
Greninja: 5
Peach: 5
Pit: 4
Yoshi: 4
Robin: 4
Duck Hunt: 3
Kirby: 3
Samus: 3
Palutena: 3
Wii Fit Trainer: 2
Link: 2
Mega Man: 2
Mr. Game & Watch: 2
Falco: 2
Mewtwo: 1
Bowser Jr: 1
Little Mac: 1
Bowser: 1

Image version:

Stuff: (Important)

Secondaries were scored the same as primaries due to the many instances of players "co-maining", ala Armada. ZeRo is a very noteworthy case, often going Diddy against extremely experienced Sheik players like VoiD, Vinnie, Mr. R., etc. As a result of this, some numbers are inflated, and if you share this, please do share this portion of the post. Diddy Kong would most likely categorize with Mario and Rosalina if I took away Zero's Diddy numbers.

This system also somewhat inflates Sheik since she's not exactly rare as a secondary, but Sheik would tower over the other characters in score no matter what I do. If a character's score seems unusually high, it's either that the character has large amounts of representation (Mario) or is secondaried late in the tournament (Both Kongs, Robin, Ryu). We might be able to make some system to score secondaries: Suggest ideas.

This list obviously isn't a viability chart, either. Greninja got 2nd at BEAST 6, but he scores a 5 here. It suggests a lack of strong representation at a high level in tournies with a large number of entrants. Similarly, Zamus has a high number of tourney wins, but very few randoms maining her that do well. Basically, don't overzealously use this, as it's flawed, does not account for matchups or theorycrafting, and solely reflects raw data from tournaments at a high level. People have different ideas of what a tier list should be, but I think it's useful to have a tracker.

Anytime there's a 150+ entrant Regional that has noteworthy players, notify me, as I'll be tracking this throughout the year and most likely will create an end-of-year list. I could do this for 2015 too, but this alone took me several hours to compile, and it's only 2 months worth of tournies. It'll be easier to get Regionals down if I can still get to VODs, as they might have information on more obscure players' mains.

Resources used:
Smash.gg, TNS's website, Challonge, Smashboard's events & power ranking sections, and ssbwiki.

 

[Yikarur]

Amazing work.
I'd count 128 man tournamentd though because thats the closest power of 2. This way we could count europe tournaments as well because most of them cap at 128

 

[Nobie]

1) bucket...demands ultimate respect from characters that use energy based or explosive projectiles

2) solid edge guarding and recovery

3) solid frame data for his normals considering they're disjointed. Hard to punish (if punishable at all) if spaced well; especially for characters that are generally slow frame data wise or have little range

I know some G&W players also swear up and down that he counters Mewtwo, but I just don't see it.

 

[Kofu]

I know some G&W players also swear up and down that he counters Mewtwo, but I just don't see it.

I think he beat Mewtwo before the latter's buffs, now it's probably even. Game & Watch's disjoints can challenge Mewtwo's excellent range and forces Mewtwo to be careful with Shadow Ball, but the genetic Pokemon's kill power and mobiliy even things out nicely.

I don't think Game & Watch beats Peach. If he does, it's only by a small amount.

 

[Nu~]

More sad news from Japan today, Tea, their top Pac-Man, has switched to Bayonetta.

There goes the last of our top rep

 

[Wintermelon43]

There goes the last of our top rep

There's still Ginko and Zage

 

[Yikarur]

Don't forget; Istudying beat Sodrek, Wiksy15, MVD, and Esam in losers at beast 6. So who sent him in losers? Light. Who isn't as good as any of thise players (Except Wiksy). and Light used Sheik.

Istudying got wrecked aganist Mr. R.

Light is amazing. You shouldn't underrate players you probably don't even really know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=VS0Tgq0MbSM
Here is the set btw.

 

[L9999]

There goes the last of our top rep

So Pac-Man meta confirmed dead?

 

[Nobie]

DA|Shinji is doing work as Pac-Man too.

 

[bc1910]

Light's really good, and has been playing since Brawl. I was surprised iStudy lost to him though. Not sure if I'd put him on the same level as ESAM. He is probably close to as good as MVD.

Also sad to see Pac losing more rep. That character is really crashing. He probably is, quite simply, too technical, for not enough reward.

 

[HoSmash4]

Light's really good, and has been playing since Brawl. I was surprised iStudy lost to him though. Not sure if I'd put him on the same level as ESAM. He is probably close to as good as MVD.

Also sad to see Pac losing more rep. That character is really crashing. He probably is, quite simply, too technical, for not enough reward.

His problem is his grab and throw combination is probably... the worst in the game. Bad grab, minimal throw followups or frametraps.. just nothing

 

[WeirdChillFever]

His problem is his grab and throw combination is probably... the worst in the game. Bad grab, minimal throw followups or frametraps.. just nothing

He has this amazing throw combo called Whiff Grab into Lose Game.

Anyway, let's take a look at his grab game:

Grab is atrocious: laggy, deadspots, free kill if whiffed, practically no range because of those dead spots.
Forward Throw: Can combo into Key and Orange sometimes, positional throw for the rest.
Back Throw: Fire Emblem Throw at the ledge. Except you might as well FSmash since it's less laggy and the trajectory of Back Throw isn't suited for gimping or killing,
Up Throw: Might have some uses as a Cloud-throw where you can buy time to set up.
Down Throw: I never really got this one.

BUT, let's not forget positional throws are important to Pac-Man as they allow them to buy time for traps and force opponents into them.
So in that way his throws are good, but they still don't make up for his bad excuse for a grab.

 

[HoSmash4]

He has this amazing throw combo called Whiff Grab into Lose Game.

Anyway, let's take a look at his grab game:

Grab is atrocious: laggy, deadspots, free kill if whiffed, practically no range because of those dead spots.
Forward Throw: Can combo into Key and Orange sometimes, positional throw for the rest.
Back Throw: Fire Emblem Throw at the ledge. Except you might as well FSmash since it's less laggy and the trajectory of Back Throw isn't suited for gimping or killing,
Up Throw: Might have some uses as a Cloud-throw where you can buy time to set up.
Down Throw: I never really got this one.

BUT, let's not forget positional throws are important to Pac-Man as they allow them to buy time for traps and force opponents into them.
So in that way his throws are good, but they still don't make up for his bad excuse for a grab.

Yeah Cloud's throws are 'bad' in a way that they dont really lead to anything at high %, but positional advantage you get from throws is so amazing for cloud. But with pacman's grab its just a massive risk.

 

[Tri Knight]

Yeah Cloud's throws are 'bad' in a way that they dont really lead to anything at high %, but positional advantage you get from throws is so amazing for cloud. But with pacman's grab its just a massive risk.

They don't really lead to anything but are definitely threatening in a passive way. Especially at high percents, throws can give Cloud a lot of free time to charge Limit, which gives him a handful of kill moves and a boost of speed. So Cloud's throws aren't really any good per se. It's just that Cloud's actually able to make use of them.

 

[BSP]

Light's really good, and has been playing since Brawl. I was surprised iStudy lost to him though. Not sure if I'd put him on the same level as ESAM. He is probably close to as good as MVD.

Also sad to see Pac losing more rep. That character is really crashing. He probably is, quite simply, too technical, for not enough reward.

He's not even that technical. Most of the flashy z drop stuff we see loses to spaces aerials or just being aware of how Pac man works. In general, there's very little reason to play him anymore when you can mash divekicks for kills / %50 combos or get limit moves that do %30 and kill under %100 :/

His throws are ok. Not good, not bad. WeirdChillFever covered everything except that Dthrow is a great setup throw when you're backed by hydrant water. You can true combo into Usmash out of it sometimes.

The character's problem is KO'ing, and that stems from not getting enough reward for beating shield. I've said this before, but you will not die vs Pac man before 150% if you don't want to. Trampoline does 7% and never sends you offstage, and his grab is too risky to throw out except once in a blue moon (and then the throws are meh). Result: rage. He has some silly damage racking potential but it doesn't matter when you can't kill people or make them scared to shield against you.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I suppose that's something. Wouldn't call it particularly notable per se, but it's definitely something when you consider how stacked G3 really was. I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that Yoshi has dropped and will probably continue to drop, but by how much is yet to be determined. He's got so many good tools for him to seem to be low tier, but at the same time there are some low tiers doing a bit more notable things than he has. Quite the tricky character to place.

We also outplaced the likes of M2K, MJG, SS, Zenyou, Ryo, Wizzrobe, Acid and many more at G3. It was not an easy tournament. Me and wall both won regional sized events about 2 months before Genesis. I got 9th at smash con, 5th at the most recent KTAR and 9/13th in about 3 other KTARs. Firefly getting 5th or 7th? at PAX. Zudenka winning a big tournament in Sweden. Results are there

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Zudenka is a good Yoshi but I'm sure the tournaments he wins are not in sweden.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If Pac-Man had a good grab I think his D-Throw would be relatively threatening because of the fact that it does like....10-11% I think? Maybe close to 12% with freshness bonus? Not bad for a standard throw that also can combo into stuff with hydrant water.

The problem is his grab is so hilariously abysmal (I remember some people saying Villager or even Samus had the worst grab? Not even close. Pac Man's grab is the only tether grab in the game with blatant, stupid deadzones. If it didn't have those it'd probably be decent at putting on the pressure.

 

[Kofu]

If Pac-Man had a good grab I think his D-Throw would be relatively threatening because of the fact that it does like....10-11% I think? Maybe close to 12% with freshness bonus? Not bad for a standard throw that also can combo into stuff with hydrant water.

The problem is his grab is so hilariously abysmal (I remember some people saying Villager or even Samus had the worst grab? Not even close. Pac Man's grab is the only tether grab in the game with blatant, stupid deadzones. If it didn't have those it'd probably be decent at putting on the pressure.

Villager's grab has far worse range (only fractionally better than a normal grab), comes out later, is only active for two frames, and has worse recovery time (Pac's grab is longer in total duration though). Villager has better reward off grabs, which is notable.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Villager's grab has far worse range (only fractionally better than a normal grab), comes out later, is only active for two frames, and has worse recovery time (Pac's grab is longer in total duration though).

Your move.

Villager's grab doesn't randomly whiff when it looks like it should hit, and his throws are also functionally 80 times better to boot.

Pac Man has a bootleg B-Throw kill throw that kind of sort of works and like, a D-Throw that stacks damage. Villager's options are much better out of grab and his grab hits CONSISTENTLY. It doesn't FOOL you into thinking it's a tether grab and then stomp on your dreams, and then offer you underwhelming reward relative to the difficulty of hitting it.

By all means.

Additionally Villager also conditions people into getting hit by his grab a lot better than I've ever seen Pac-Man do it, probably because while it's only 2 frames, at least those 2 frames are consistent and don't have random deadzones.

 

[Kofu]

Villager's grab doesn't randomly whiff when it looks like it should hit, and his throws are also functionally 80 times better to boot.

Pac Man has a bootleg B-Throw kill throw that kind of sort of works and like, a D-Throw that stacks damage. Villager's options are much better out of grab and his grab hits CONSISTENTLY. It doesn't FOOL you into thinking it's a tether grab and then stomp on your dreams, and then offer you underwhelming reward relative to the difficulty of hitting it.

By all means.

Additionally Villager also conditions people into getting hit by his grab a lot better than I've ever seen Pac-Man do it, probably because while it's only 2 frames, at least those 2 frames are consistent and don't have random deadzones.

I don't think I've ever seen Pac's grab just flat-out whiff, though if it does it's probably because the grab frames come in spurts. Honestly I'd take Pac-Man's grab over Villager's in a heartbeat because from what I've experienced his grab is better in a vacuum. Villager's grab game is better, definitely, but not his grab. The only one of his grabs that's even decent is his pivot grab. If you get standing/dash grabbed by Villager he either set up a good Lloid trap or you suck.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think I've ever seen Pac's grab just flat-out whiff, though if it does it's probably because the grab frames come in spurts. Honestly I'd take Pac-Man's grab over Villager's in a heartbeat because from what I've experienced his grab is better in a vacuum. Villager's grab game is better, definitely, but not his grab. The only one of his grabs that's even decent is his pivot grab. If you get standing/dash grabbed by Villager he either set up a good Lloid trap or you suck.

Pac Man's throws also come in 2 frame spurts for reference. Would you like to know how bad it is?

12-14, 22-24, 32-39 (Oh, at least by Frame 32 it has like, 7 or 8 frames!)

FAF of 76 on all of them, which means yes, Villager's even recovers faster. Pac Man's grab is not something any character, even Villager, wants any part of.

The only remotely nice thing I can say is that all of his grabs start on frame 12 at least, but hey! That's literally the only good part. Period.

It is absolutely the worst grab in the game IMO, the range on the earliest frames is incredibly low to boot and the deadzones are GIGANTIC for an FAF of 76. Note that I mentioned an FAF of 76, that's because all of his grabs have the same FAF. Pivot, Dash, and yes even standing.

It's terrible, I've looked into it countless times and I see no reason why not to call it the worst grab in the game. It is not only misleading but terribly useless. If it wasn't complete trash we'd see it being implemented more than it is but there's a reason we don't.

 

[MachoCheeze]

I don't think I've ever seen Pac's grab just flat-out whiff, though if it does it's probably because the grab frames come in spurts. Honestly I'd take Pac-Man's grab over Villager's in a heartbeat because from what I've experienced his grab is better in a vacuum. Villager's grab game is better, definitely, but not his grab. The only one of his grabs that's even decent is his pivot grab. If you get standing/dash grabbed by Villager he either set up a good Lloid trap or you suck.

Back when I mained Pac one time I was playing friendlies with a Villager. I grabbed at villager, missing right when he was in front of me (because Pac-Man), and he was able to go in his turn around skid animation, walk up towards me, and bowling ball me all while my grab animation was still going on.

Pac's grab is utter, utter, UTTER garbage and it is BY FAR the worst grab in the game.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

There's a reason why it's called "the dookie grab."

Smooth Criminal

 

[Coffee™]

Such WEAKNESS!!!!

Keep spitting that nonsense greninja players.

I guess it's easier to call a match unwinnable then it is to TRAIN.

UGH

This x10

Greninja does lose the matchup, but the amount of negativity coming from Greninja players will only serve to create a mentality where they'll likely already lose once their opponent picks Sheik on the character select screen.

For what it's worth I think Greninja vs Sheik is roughly 60:40 in Sheiks favor but it will likely continue to look worse than that until Greninja players figure out that his standard gameplan simply does not exist against Sheik and he needs to approach this matchup completely different from any of his others.

 

[C0rvus]

My opinion on Peach's matchups. pic.twitter.com/QrTV5iTIyH

— MRG VGBC | うめき/ Umeki🌼👸 (@Umeki_Daisy) March 8, 2016

Here's Umeki's MU chart for Peach. I'm particularly interested in Pika being -2 for Peach. Even ESAM put that MU as even.

Oh this is interesting. I do think for sure that Pikachu has the advantage over Peach. My own experience backs this up. When I played Pikachu as a secondary, and was still pretty new at him, I took a set off a pretty strong local Peach player. It very much felt like a bad MU for her. Also, NAKAT vs SlayerZ at G3(?) would back this up as well, but there was definitely some choking going on in that set. Just my 2 cents.

 

[BSP]

I don't think I've ever seen Pac's grab just flat-out whiff, though if it does it's probably because the grab frames come in spurts. Honestly I'd take Pac-Man's grab over Villager's in a heartbeat because from what I've experienced his grab is better in a vacuum. Villager's grab game is better, definitely, but not his grab. The only one of his grabs that's even decent is his pivot grab. If you get standing/dash grabbed by Villager he either set up a good Lloid trap or you suck.

https://youtu.be/5pClXitHes8?t=981

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

MU inexperience may have played a part too, but yea it's so weird.

Like what's going on in the minds of top players that makes their opinions on MUs so different?
You think they ever have the time to talk with each other and see what the other thinks?

Idk though, everyone has their own perspective on things, which is why all MU charts will be questioned in one way or another.

But its......a little interesting you know?

I wonder what someone like Istudying's MU for greninjas would be like(if he hasn't done it) or Hyuga(that how you say his name?) for Toon Link, seriously it would give us an idea of what they think.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I disagree on Robin losing the Peach MU, but I can see the train of thought for why Umeki thinks so.

Having a Fair just as strong and just as large as hers really works wonders in keeping her honest imo.

 

[Ultinarok]

I know it seems mean to say because Sheik is so commonly used, but I find her overall impact on this game to be cancerous. The fact that she writes off half the cast single-handedly and kills the viability of numerous characters is this game's biggest limiter in terms of potential. A properly nerfed Sheik would see this game come to life far more, and the character variety would be huge. ZSS, Rosa, MK, Mario, Ryu etc. would still be a big deal but they actually LOSE to some characters and have a far more reasonable matchup spread.

At the same time, how do you nerf Sheik more without making her unplayable? Right now Sheik is a character built on tiny, low damage hits with absurd speed that give her damage racking through big combos, and a series of tools in neutral and disadvantage that make her unrivaled. Every time she gets nerfed, its to her damage and kill power, which is fine, but her main issues; busted Needles and stupid frame data/mobility combination, remain untouched. If we nerf her frame data and Needles, she'd be pretty bad, because she'd have to work harder for hits that do 4-7% while the rest of the cast can reliably put out 7-10% or higher per hit. And she'd still struggle for outright kills. Yet its unlikely they'll ever un-nerf her damage cuts and knockback reductions.

That would be my idea:

1. Increase the damage on Sheik's moves while adding additional frames of start-up and end-lag to every aerial and tilt.
2. Reduce the disjoint on fair and add said lag, but boost damage slightly so its still a decent move.
3. Add more lag to Needles, or remove their hitstun so they function like Fox's Blaster. Instead of, you know, shutting down half the cast.
4. Buff dair, D-Smash to be properly useful. A stronger meteor and easier cancel on dair and more consistent power on D-Smash seem reasonable.
5. Add end lag to down throw so her kill confirms are toned down. Make it so she can combo off of it, but can't always kill off of it.
6. More vulnerability on Vanish, both before and after. In a game wih Falcon Dives and Fire Fox's, it doesn't need to be THAT safe while also being a kill move.

But these things won't happen, because it would mean rejecting all previous patch nerfs. But if she gets additional lag, she just seems like she'd be too weak...her dominance right now is because she basically cannot be approached and cannot be punished, and can approach and punish heavily. Taking away her frame data would just make a character that has to work too hard to achieve a win, like Pikachu, instead of being broken like she is now.

How would you guys nerf Sheik from where she is now without crippling her entirely? Or am I wrong in assuming that frame data nerfs would cause the opposite issue now that her damage and outright knockback are abysmal?

 

[BunbUn129]

I know it seems mean to say because Sheik is so commonly used, but I find her overall impact on this game to be cancerous. The fact that she writes off half the cast single-handedly and kills the viability of numerous characters is this game's biggest limiter in terms of potential. A properly nerfed Sheik would see this game come to life far more, and the character variety would be huge. ZSS, Rosa, MK, Mario, Ryu etc. would still be a big deal but they actually LOSE to some characters and have a far more reasonable matchup spread.

At the same time, how do you nerf Sheik more without making her unplayable? Right now Sheik is a character built on tiny, low damage hits with absurd speed that give her damage racking through big combos, and a series of tools in neutral and disadvantage that make her unrivaled. Every time she gets nerfed, its to her damage and kill power, which is fine, but her main issues; busted Needles and stupid frame data/mobility combination, remain untouched. If we nerf her frame data and Needles, she'd be pretty bad, because she'd have to work harder for hits that do 4-7% while the rest of the cast can reliably put out 7-10% or higher per hit. And she'd still struggle for outright kills. Yet its unlikely they'll ever un-nerf her damage cuts and knockback reductions.

That would be my idea:

1. Increase the damage on Sheik's moves while adding additional frames of start-up and end-lag to every aerial and tilt.
2. Reduce the disjoint on fair and add said lag, but boost damage slightly so its still a decent move.
3. Add more lag to Needles, or remove their hitstun so they function like Fox's Blaster. Instead of, you know, shutting down half the cast.
4. Buff dair, D-Smash to be properly useful. A stronger meteor and easier cancel on dair and more consistent power on D-Smash seem reasonable.
5. Add end lag to down throw so her kill confirms are toned down. Make it so she can combo off of it, but can't always kill off of it.
6. More vulnerability on Vanish, both before and after. In a game wih Falcon Dives and Fire Fox's, it doesn't need to be THAT safe while also being a kill move.

But these things won't happen, because it would mean rejecting all previous patch nerfs. But if she gets additional lag, she just seems like she'd be too weak...her dominance right now is because she basically cannot be approached and cannot be punished, and can approach and punish heavily. Taking away her frame data would just make a character that has to work too hard to achieve a win, like Pikachu, instead of being broken like she is now.

How would you guys nerf Sheik from where she is now without crippling her entirely? Or am I wrong in assuming that frame data nerfs would cause the opposite issue now that her damage and outright knockback are abysmal?

Instead of asking for nerfs and outlining them, why not just learn the MU?

Someone has to be the best in the game. At least she isn't as dumb as Brawl Meta Knight.

 

[T4ylor]

Also no point in nerfing Sheik now when Cloud and Bayonetta are effectively doing the same thing.

 

[BunbUn129]

Also no point in nerfing Sheik now when Cloud and Bayonetta are effectively doing the same thing.

This. The fact that Sheik actually has a learning curve makes her character design acceptable. Cloud is destroying doubles and players who weren't doing well are suddenly getting to top 8 after picking up Bayo. I think we should be more concerned with characters who have low learning curves but get great results.

 

[L9999]

This. The fact that Sheik actually has a learning curve makes her character design acceptable. Cloud is destroying doubles and players who weren't doing well are suddenly getting to top 8 after picking up Bayo. I think we should be more concerned with characters who have low learning curves but get great results.

Well those characters are getting the disappointment card or their metas are on life support. .

 

[Solfiner]

I don't think there is a need to worry about Cloud. The notable ones that have gotten results are Tweek, Mew2king and Komorikiri (Forgive me if I forgot someone.)

All of those players have fantastic fundamentals and have proven themselves even before Cloud was released.

 

[Nemesis561]

At least sheik takes a modicum of skill, she's not pick up and play. These 5.99 characters are getting so much hate because they're not hard to pick up. Who doesn't have a cloud/bayo/corrin?? I have a new found level of respect for top sheik play

 

[Zelder]

Well those characters are getting the disappointment card or their metas are on life support. .

People keep proclaiming the death of Mario but I'm just not seeing it - none of his major players have dropped him, he still shows up a bunch in tournaments, gets good results, etc. I don't doubt he'll drop on the tier list - Cloud and Bayo are just too bonkers, and he shouldn't have been ahead of Diddy - but the way people in this thread talk about Mario, you'd think everyone got together and agreed to remove him from the character select screen.


Falcon has been dead for months, though. RIP in peace to Douglass

 

[Megamang]

Again with the 'unknown' players getting results with Bayonetta. Yea, but the most recent stacked tournament had finals that were Shiek ZSS, and if you think anyone getting results with Bayonetta is 'unknown' then you need to learn your smash history. Or at least stop posting like you know it.


Of course Tweek does better when he isn't playing a low tier. He knows those guys, and they only know his Bowser Jr. He had some upsets, but he is a skilled player who clearly was putting in work for his new character. Its not like he was just playing a FG cloud and Dabuz didn't know what to do.


Anyways, more importantly, it is really cool to see a top player actually utilizing SDI. Nairo getting out of Cloud's fsmash was amazing, and is something most people would have said is impossible before this tournament. Interesting that he used SDI when he knew he was going to be punished, its not like you are doing anything else when you whiff with your character in this game, except maybe holding shield.



I've said it before, but if we were going to nerf shiek (im for it, but have to recognize now that it is unlikely) I think we would just tone down U-airs killing power. As it is, she hits so close to the top of the screen that the moderately powered uair is actually killing before most other characters, and shiek only has her real weakness (trouble killing) if she messes up the 50/50 a few times in a row. Some characters she can have a kill confirm from the throw, and that is ridiculous. Just make it kill 30% later, then she actually has a killing problem and her dominant nuetral isn't so ridiculous. We see Nairo with ZSS abusing her relative lack of a hard punish, since he can go for grabs and the most she can do is a BnB anyways... but it'd be nice if, say, Kirby had this luxury.