Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TurboLink]

One thing I've been thinking about is grabs and the state of the meta. Grabbing is pretty strong in this game. Best it's ever been (save for PM imo but who cares). But I've always been of the opinion that throw combos and kill throws are like, the most important thing. You need them to be consistent as a character. But Cloud ****s on that notion. Perhaps it's a place to take his MU but his grab and throws are ***, and he's still taking names left and right. Is it because his other tools are just so good? Or have I been overhyping grabs? Both, probably.

Bayonetta's grab is *** but she has some okay throw stuff. She rarely seems to need it in the top level matches we have seen so far. She can kill just fine with her special moves and ceiling combos.

Yoshi has had no presence lately but he's still a solid character despite having essentially no grab game. It certainly is the biggest thing that holds him back, but he's low high or upper mid while not possessing that meta trait at all.

Fox is still very good. His throw pretty much only exists to make people not want to hold shield against him. He has some little combos out of throws at various percents, but he doesn't really need them when he gets 50/50 situations after hitting a dash attack and his normals are pretty great.

Ness is the poster boy of how strong grabbing is. It sets up consistent damage. His back throw is the most reliable kill setup in the game. But he's kind of fallen out of favor in the past year or so.

Maybe the meta is moving away from grabs as we all get better at harder punishes and playing the neutral. Or maybe the DLC characters are just super busted lmao.

That's because Cloud gets different reward from his throws. If Cloud throws you that means he gets to charge his Limit Gauge some more and become that much closer to gaining his Limit moves and a speed boost.

 

[|RK|]

Given this information, usually how I look at ESAM's matches are like this: What were ESAM's options in a given situation? Could he have done something better? What would've been the result? Did the opponent have the tools to respond properly to this choice? Basically, stuff like that.

This is honestly how I see every matchup, regardless of the number of players playing a character. It baffles me that this isn't standard.

It's also the only way to check your own replays.

 

[bc1910]

Genuinely is because Cloud and Bayo are so busted in other ways that they transcend the need for good throws. Cloud basically has a throw combo in "Xthrow to Limit Charge" anyway.

Fox is like, one of the only characters with actually good shield pressure. He struggles to kill shielding opponents (this has been noted as a weakness from day 1 and has not changed) but has no issues racking up damage.

Ryu doesn't have particularly good throws either, yet he's on the way down. He's also worse than Cloud and Bayo in the current meta. This pretty much proves this point - grabs are very important unless you are literally more broken than Ryu, who is still a top 10 force.

It's most likely because Rosaluma's overall MU spread is much better than Greninja and MM. For Rosa, MK is probably her only 70-30 MU, and she goes even or wins against most other characters. You also have to take into account that MK isn't nearly as common as Sheik.

I agree with the sentiment of your post but I wouldn't compare Greninja's MU spread to Mega Man's. They're ~10 spots apart for a reason. Gren's spread is actually really solid outside the Sheik MU while MM has several iffy MUs.

 

[NairWizard]

I wonder how people manage to talk about their mains in every single post (Greninjas, Ikes, etc.). God, the Pikachu discussion is draining me, and I mained the character across hundreds of tournament sets.

Ryu doesn't have particularly good throws either

Ryu's "throw combos" are literally built into his throws. He's got a great dashgrab that results in 15% + pummel damage every single time at any percent.

and considering that it's Ryu that we're talking about, 15-20% is like, 1/5 of your stock.

 

[bc1910]

ITA, with Ike probably being the worst of the bunch. Can't blame people for talking about what they know, though. And I actually don't mind constructive discussion on Pika because for a top 10 character he's very rarely talked about.

This is true, but it's undeniable that Ryu's throws are not what you would expect of a top 5 character. Damaging they may be, but you're not dying if he grabs you sub-160.

 

[Man Li Gi]

SDI doesn't beat witch twist, I'm pretty sure all the top players trying to sdi didn't save them. It can help for sure but no one can sdi that fast.

Dude, no. My DK and Marth has come out of the attack. Sure it takes labbing to do so, but its possible. This is what I hate about this game or this game's mentality. Back when Dunnobro was actively on this thread, the man would lab the ever loving Christmas out of DHD. He found the results to be unsatisfactory, but the lesson here is to lab until labbing is no more. Only then should you give up. He quit because of some bs in DHD smashes (RIP DHD smash attacks).

Quitting because "is too fast or hard" is what could effectively kill this game's momentum with people bailing or giving up on strats. The mental power in players this game seems weaker than ever in this game (since it still so young), but building the mental strength to believe or try or stay committed is what causes great stories to be made. Ocean beat M2K, still talked about, majority of Brawl 2013 is still talked about ( even Shaky beating Aba and Rain), Dashizwiz v M2K....the list goes on.

TL;DR
Making defeatist claims that aren't properly tested irk me to no end and causes a weak resolve in players. This post isnt an attack on you, but in some people's perspective here.

 

[HoSmash4]

Dude, no. My DK and Marth has come out of the attack. Sure it takes labbing to do so, but its possible. This is what I hate about this game or this game's mentality. Back when Dunnobro was actively on this thread, the man would lab the ever loving Christmas out of DHD. He found the results to be unsatisfactory, but the lesson here is to lab until labbing is no more. Only then should you give up. He quit because of some bs in DHD smashes (RIP DHD smash attacks).

Quitting because "is too fast or hard" is what could effectively kill this game's momentum with people bailing or giving up on strats. The mental power in players this game seems weaker than ever in this game (since it still so young), but building the mental strength to believe or try or stay committed is what causes great stories to be made. Ocean beat M2K, still talked about, majority of Brawl 2013 is still talked about ( even Shaky beating Aba and Rain), Dashizwiz v M2K....the list goes on.

TL;DR
Making defeatist claims that aren't properly tested irk me to no end and causes a weak resolve in players. This post isnt an attack on you, but in some people's perspective here.

Oh yeah i meant my post as a response to beating saying 'just sdi out of witch twist its all right', its not that simple as just wiggling the controller, theres going to be an angle in that particular situation that bayonetta cant followup on so it's going to need a lot of situational knowledge

SDI will help i agree but its not a simple fix.

But yeah, a lot of people have defeatist mindsets especially when it comes to top tiers like sheik.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Totally off topic but, with how slow most of the character boards are, I'm looking for an answer to a question but I don't want to wait 200 years for a response. To other Villager mains on here, I noticed a lot of people on the board say that Megaman is Villager's worst match up, even worse than Rosalina. Can someone explain this to me because I don't understand it all.

 

[Man Li Gi]

In mid MM match, I SDI Witch twist from hit 3 and jumped to get a tipper uair kill. Marth ain't my main but he interesting. Funny that day I was committed to being Lucina player but walked out with a solid Marth. I'm almost as good as JoJo.

 

[Nobie]

Totally off topic but, with how slow most of the character boards are, I'm looking for an answer to a question but I don't want to wait 200 years for a response. To other Villager mains on here, I noticed a lot of people on the board say that Megaman is Villager's worst match up, even worse than Rosalina. Can someone explain this to me because I don't understand it all.

Mega Man has straight up superior mobility to Villager in every way except recovery. A fantastic grab is scary for a character whose tether is far worse. Pellets mess with just about every projectile Villager can muster, and as long as you don't give Villager an fsmash or dair Pocket is all but useless. If metal blade gets pocketed Mega Man can just pull out another.

The battle is mainly waged with pellets vs slingshot, where pellets are faster but shorter range. However, Mega Man's ability to weave through the air is so so much better that it leans towards him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

ITA, with Ike probably being the worst of the bunch. Can't blame people for talking about what they know, though.

Exactly. Do you really want say, me trying to run my mouth about Lucario?

I know very little about Lucario beyond "Aura scary, kinda poopy frame data overall". So instead of making myself look like a fool I'll just stay quiet and read as the various topics flow in and out of the topic, chiming in either when its about the character I know (Ike), or if I have a question about something.

Knowledge is power after all. Rather gain it by listening than miss it by chirping about something I don't know.

 

[NairWizard]

Knowledge is indeed power--if the only character that you know anything about is the one you play, I believe that you're going to be quite disadvantaged going into a tournament setting.

(not a personal attack on you, just saying; definitely agree that it's not worth talking about something that you don't know)

 

[iVoltage]

Everyone pockets Cloud now so no pocket MKs to scare them not like it works since they don't lab the MU or the character even.

You don't pocket Meta Knight if you want to do decently at all.

 

[C0rvus]

You don't pocket Meta Knight if you want to do decently at all.

Can confirm. I tried this, it didn't work. When MK mains say he's more difficult than he looks, they are right. I still suck at MK. It's too bad, because I like MK, but not enough to devote myself to him.

 

[bc1910]

Exactly. Do you really want say, me trying to run my mouth about Lucario?

I know very little about Lucario beyond "Aura scary, kinda poopy frame data overall". So instead of making myself look like a fool I'll just stay quiet and read as the various topics flow in and out of the topic, chiming in either when its about the character I know (Ike), or if I have a question about something.

Knowledge is power after all. Rather gain it by listening than miss it by chirping about something I don't know.

Couldn't agree more. I would rather listen to informed opinions about one topic than nonsense about a variety of topics.

The issues arise when users talk nonsense about one topic, but those users are few and far between.

 

[Illusion.]

If sheik is what stops greninja from being solo viable then that mu should be atleast a -3 along with megamans sheik mu because -2 is still doable.

Sheik vs. Greninja is definitely -3

 

[Das Koopa]

-Frostbite
-2GGT: ESAM Saga
-2GGT: The False Awakens
-2GGT: EE Saga
-Tampa Never Sleeps 6
-GUMS 6
-Landlocked
-Umebura 21
-Sumabato 7
-Switzerland National Championship 2016

These tourneys all had 150+

Thank you. I've dug through 2GGT ESAM and Frostbite's players in Smash.gg brackets to get both Top 16s so far. When I publish my List, I'll also be including a doc with all of the results handy.

Side note: Can I have a source/bracket page for Swiss Nats? I can't find anything on it.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheik vs. Greninja is definitely -3

Whats the basis for this claim that the sheik greninja matchup is as bad as the rosa ness matchup?

 

[Illusion.]

Whats the basis for this claim that the sheik greninja matchup is as bad as the rosa ness matchup?

As Y2Kay put it, Greninja has 4 things that make him good:
1. Shuriken
2. Maneuverability
3. High damage output, but meh frame data
4. Recovery and edgeguarding

Sheik has tools to brush aside all of them.

 

[deepseadiva]

Whats the basis for this claim that the sheik greninja matchup is as bad as the rosa ness matchup?

Hyperbole

 

[HoSmash4]

As Y2Kay put it, Greninja has 4 things that make him good:
1. Shuriken
2. Maneuverability
3. High damage output, but meh frame data
4. Recovery and edgeguarding

Sheik has tools to brush aside all of them.

I agree with these 4 points, except Greninja is actually pretty hard to kill for Sheik (watch any mr.r istudying set) and greninja has much much earlier kill confirms so he has comeback potential in the matchup.

I dont see it as a -3 on the same level as rosalina and ness.

 

[Illusion.]

I agree with these 4 points, except Greninja is actually pretty hard to kill for Sheik (watch any mr.r istudying set) and greninja has much much earlier kill confirms so he has comeback potential in the matchup.

I dont see it as a -3 on the same level as rosalina and ness.

When you say "-3," do you mean 30:70 or 35:65? I mean 35:65.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

I know I really really shouldn't be, but I was sorely disappointed with Ranai's performance at "Shots Fired 2". He exhibited an uncharacteristic lack of safety when he played Tweek and 9B. His match with 9B in particular has me [irrationally] vexed because he looked like he was just messing around and didn't at all try to outplay his opponent. I mean, what matters is that he was having fun with the game, but this is what I hate about friends meeting each other in bracket (as a viewer); one always ends up not taking things seriously and the match is boring as a result.

 

[HoSmash4]

When you say "-3," do you mean 30:70 or 35:65? I mean 35:65.

Oh 35:65 seems fair enough. I'd have went for 40:60 but evidence does suggest 35:65.

I just see '-3' matchups being ZSS vs Rob, Rosalina vs Ness and I dont think sheik greninja is as bad as them two matchups.

In my opinion I see Captain Falcon/Rob/Ike to have -2 matchups vs Sheik and I think Greninja's matchup with sheik is no less bad than theirs.

The common thing all 4 characters vs sheik is that sheik completely dominates their gameplan but they kill way earlier than Sheik does, preventing it from being --3.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sheik vs. Greninja is definitely -3

Such WEAKNESS!!!!

Keep spitting that nonsense greninja players.

I guess it's easier to call a match unwinnable then it is to TRAIN.

UGH

 

[juddy96]

I know I really really shouldn't be, but I was sorely disappointed with Ranai's performance at "Shots Fired 2". He exhibited an uncharacteristic lack of safety when he played Tweek and 9B. His match with 9B in particular has me [irrationally] vexed because he looked like he was just messing around and didn't at all try to outplay his opponent. I mean, what matters is that he was having fun with the game, but this is what I hate about friends meeting each other in bracket (as a viewer); one always ends up not taking things seriously and the match is boring as a result.

Well when you are so used to playing high level competition for no money I guess it's not as stressful and you can have a more jovial attitude. This was only his 3rd American tournament, and since Japan doesn't play for money, they don't really face that much pressure as often.

 

[NairWizard]

Oh 35:65 seems fair enough. I'd have went for 40:60 but evidence does suggest 35:65.

I just see '-3' matchups being ZSS vs Rob, Rosalina vs Ness and I dont think sheik greninja is as bad as them two matchups.

In my opinion I see Captain Falcon/Rob/Ike to have -2 matchups vs Sheik and I think Greninja's matchup with sheik is no less bad than theirs.

The common thing all 4 characters vs sheik is that sheik completely dominates their gameplan but they kill way earlier than Sheik does, preventing it from being --3.

ZSS vs ROB and Rosalina vs. Ness are -3 matchups on the basis of the advantage/disadvantage states, so it's more clearly a -3. You see Ness offstage getting insta-gimped by Rosalina's down-b and you're like "wow, that's stupid, -3." Natural reaction.

Greninja vs. Sheik is -3 (probably it's only -2 but hey, I'm not one to argue numbers, just offering perspective) not because of disadvantage but because of neutral, so the loss is a lot subtler.

Forget the theory for a second, and forget real matches that you've seen. Put yourself in the Greninja's shoes (webbed feet?). You've just started playing game 1 of a set vs. a top-ranked Sheik. Stage is like, idk, Smashville or Town and City or FD, whatever. Match starts, Sheik begins charging Needles. What do you do?

A) Throw Shrukens. Needles are transcendent, so this won't work.
B) Approach using a short hop aerial or tomahawk (using dashgrab because standing grab is lol). You're going to get f-aired for your trouble, Greninja's fastest aerial is his b-air iirc, and Sheik's not scared of your empty hop.
C) Approach using shield. Hello, bad OOS options, meet Sheik's ridiculously rewarding throw combos. Your shield is going to get jab1, jab2d, followed by a grab.
D) Use your mobility to weave in and out of Sheik's range until you can get a dash attack or dash grab going, all the while blocking needles on reaction. Only, hey, Sheik's weaving is even better, with the best options out of dash in the game, so somehow your higher mobility specs don't actually matter, and you just get grabbed a whole heck of a lot.
E) SD twice and pick another character.

When E actually looks just as promising as A, B, C, and D, you've got a pretty grim matchup on your hands.

God, why do I not main Sheik?

 

[momochuu]

Such WEAKNESS!!!!

Keep spitting that nonsense greninja players.

I guess it's easier to call a match unwinnable then it is to TRAIN.

UGH

its actually quite bad lol. i can count on one hand i've seen a greninja player beat a good sheik in tourney.

 

[teluoborg]

ZSS vs ROB and Rosalina vs. Ness are -3 matchups on the basis of the advantage/disadvantage states, so it's more clearly a -3. You see Ness offstage getting insta-gimped by Rosalina's down-b and you're like "wow, that's stupid, -3." Natural reaction.

Greninja vs. Sheik is -3 (probably it's only -2 but hey, I'm not one to argue numbers, just offering perspective) not because of disadvantage but because of neutral, so the loss is a lot subtler.

Forget the theory for a second, and forget real matches that you've seen. Put yourself in the Greninja's shoes (webbed feet?). You've just started playing game 1 of a set vs. a top-ranked Sheik. Stage is like, idk, Smashville or Town and City or FD, whatever. Match starts, Sheik begins charging Needles. What do you do?

A) Throw Shrukens. Needles are transcendent, so this won't work.
B) Approach using a short hop aerial or tomahawk (using dashgrab because standing grab is lol). You're going to get f-aired for your trouble, Greninja's fastest aerial is his b-air iirc, and Sheik's not scared of your empty hop.
C) Approach using shield. Hello, bad OOS options, meet Sheik's ridiculously rewarding throw combos. Your shield is going to get jab1, jab2d, followed by a grab.
D) Use your mobility to weave in and out of Sheik's range until you can get a dash attack or dash grab going, all the while blocking needles on reaction. Only, hey, Sheik's weaving is even better, with the best options out of dash in the game, so somehow your higher mobility specs don't actually matter, and you just get grabbed a whole heck of a lot.
E) SD twice and pick another character.

When E actually looks just as promising as A, B, C, and D, you've got a pretty grim matchup on your hands.

God, why do I not main Sheik?

Damn those needles look completely impossible to deal with. If only Greninja had a way to leave the ground to avoid the horizontal trajectory of the needles and then quickly come back, preferably with a low lag aerial to cover Sheik's lack of disjoint. But that would require a top jumping height and top falling speed, two things that Greninja certainly doesn't have. Man, if only...

 

[Wintermelon43]

Don't forget; Istudying beat Sodrek, Wiksy15, MVD, and Esam in losers at beast 6. So who sent him in losers? Light. Who isn't as good as any of thise players (Except Wiksy). and Light used Sheik.

Istudying got wrecked aganist Mr. R.

 

[Illusion.]

Such WEAKNESS!!!!

Keep spitting that nonsense greninja players.

I guess it's easier to call a match unwinnable then it is to TRAIN.

UGH

Please point out where I said "the MU is unwinnable."

Spoiler

Oh wait, you can't.

 

[FullMoon]

At the same time iStudying did beat Greggs in a recent tournament if I remember right and those two must play each other quite often considering they're doubles partners.

Sure it's not that impressive, but it's worth noting.

iStudying isn't completely hopeless against Mr.R either, he clearly wasn't at the top of his game during the set at Beast VI, considering he had a very exhausting Bo5 against ESAM.

 

[Y2Kay]

Such WEAKNESS!!!!

Keep spitting that nonsense greninja players.

I guess it's easier to call a match unwinnable then it is to TRAIN.

UGH

Let's be real here tho, don't you think Greninja mains have just been sittin on our butts and let her beat us down? NO, greninjas, just like a lot of other metas, have at least attempted to tackle the matchup, because no one wants to stop playing the character they like.

In the sheik matchup, their is no area where greninja really does out do sheik. greninja likes to disengage and engage on his terms, but there is hardly ever a time when sheik isn't in control.

Cracking this match up is a lot easier said than done.

 

[Illusion.]

Damn those needles look completely impossible to deal with. If only Greninja had a way to leave the ground to avoid the horizontal trajectory of the needles and then quickly come back, preferably with a low lag aerial to cover Sheik's lack of disjoint. But that would require a top jumping height and top falling speed, two things that Greninja certainly doesn't have. Man, if only...

"Sheik's lack of disjoint"
"[Greninja's] low lag aerials"

lol

 

[HoSmash4]

Let's be real here tho, don't you think Greninja mains have just been sittin on our butts and let her beat us down? NO, greninjas, just like a lot of other metas, have at least attempted to tackle the matchup, because no one wants to stop playing the character they like.

In the sheik matchup, their is no area where greninja really does out do sheik. greninja likes to disengage and engage on his terms, but there is hardly ever a time when sheik isn't in control.

Cracking this match up is a lot easier said than done.

So... You guys have given up on tackling the matchup? This Mid tier mentality will be the thing holding you back.


I get it's a really hard matchup but make no mistake there have been a lot of awful match ups in brawl that mains of less powerful characters like DKwill have made doable. The truth and matter is, Greninja isn't a top 10 character so he won't be getting top 8 at a super national. You're kidding if you think the majority of the other non top 10 don't struggle vs Sheik either (exceptions probably being lucario, arguably DK, Yoshi)

 

[Y2Kay]

At the same time iStudying did beat Greggs in a recent tournament if I remember right and those two must play each other quite often considering they're doubles partners.

Sure it's not that impressive, but it's worth noting.

iStudying isn't completely hopeless against Mr.R either, he clearly wasn't at the top of his game during the set at Beast VI, considering he had a very exhausting Bo5 against ESAM.

Another thing I think is important to note is how fluent Mr. R is at the Greninja:Sheik match up. I think it would be interesting to see how istudying would do against sheik that didn't know the character like the back of his hand.

 

[bc1910]

Gregs is okay. Nothing special but pretty good. iStudy recently beat his Bayo with Corrin. I'd say it's one player outplaying the other more than anything.

A) Throw Shrukens. Needles are transcendent, so this won't work.

It's not as simple as "shurikens don't work". Needles go through shurikens, but that also means shurikens go through needles. Greninja's uncharged shurikens deal more damage than a single needle. Put the two characters in training mode and mash B with both, Greninja will actually win the camping war until he gets pushed out of range. This isn't to say he will win a real camping war due to needles' charge capabilities, but shurikens are still good against Sheik.

Sheik's aerial frame data is the reason why this is such a bad MU for Greninja. She doesn't have to respect an aerial Greninja like nearly every other character, she just slaps him away with Fair. Incidentally this is why Marth is iffy for Greninja at times.

That said, I think the focus needs to shift back to the ranged game in this MU. I see most Greninja players try to approach Sheik with shield and I'm like, why. Our OoS game is our biggest weakness and you're just inviting Sheik to murder you with grabs or Fair pressure. Play the mid/long range game, take a few needles. Sheik is going to hit you. It's better for her to hit you with needles than one of her combo starters. Sheik cannot shoot needles in an endless barrage, you will get some shurikens in.

Also, once you get hit with needles at high percent and get launched, charging a shuriken and drifting back to the ground is actually a really good option and a better one than most characters have once hit with needles at high percent.

Fair is the worst thing about this MU. Needles are more manageable. The future of the MU lies with working out how to contest needles IMO, not trying to win a close range game that the numbers just won't let you win.

Maybe I'm saying nothing new here. And I'm not suggesting that Greninja players haven't been doing anything to crack this MU because that's blatantly not true, iStudying is definitely leading the cause. But I feel some players are content with saying "this MU sucks" and are now done with it. It's a tad early for that.

 

[BananaBake]

Totally off topic but, with how slow most of the character boards are, I'm looking for an answer to a question but I don't want to wait 200 years for a response. To other Villager mains on here, I noticed a lot of people on the board say that Megaman is Villager's worst match up, even worse than Rosalina. Can someone explain this to me because I don't understand it all.

I'm in the same boat, but with Mega Man. I have no idea whatsoever

 

[Y2Kay]

So... You guys have given up on tackling the matchup? This Mid tier mentality will be the thing holding you back.


I get it's a really hard matchup but make no mistake there have been a lot of awful match ups in brawl that mains of less powerful characters like DKwill have made doable. The truth and matter is, Greninja isn't a top 10 character so he won't be getting top 8 at a super national. You're kidding if you think the majority of the other non top 10 don't struggle vs Sheik either (exceptions probably being lucario, arguably DK, Yoshi)

I'm naive and stubborn as a pitbull, I'll keep trying to figure it out, and if I'm the last greninja labbing it then so be it.

Again, I'm not saying it isn't impossible, nor am I content with sheik gatekeeping greninja. My point is this isn't gonna happen over night, it can improve with baby steps.

Calling out greninja mains for saying it's a bad match up, is kinda silly. that's what I was getting at.

 

[Trunks159]

Please point out where I said "the MU is unwinnable."

Spoiler

Oh wait, you can't.

That wasn't the point of Emblem Lord's post.