Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Greward]

If sheik is what stops greninja from being solo viable then that mu should be atleast a -3 along with megamans sheik mu because -2 is still doable.

Mega Man sheik is a 1-9, Greninja sheik is probably 3-7.

Although 1-9 in smash community means 67.46- 32.54 because we definitely don't have any 3-7 matchup because our game is super balanced.

 

[iVoltage]

Cloud realy makes me wonder why they even bothered to touch luigi and diddy if they were going to release the same thing again a few months later. Its been said many times but Clouds reward to effort ratio is just as stupid as the above examples. Hes already getting amazing results and its really not hard to see why hes making it into top 5.

 

[FullMoon]

If sheik is what stops greninja from being solo viable then that mu should be atleast a -3 along with megamans sheik mu because -2 is still doable.

It is doable, just very hard. Having a -2 against the best character in the game is already good enough to hold you back viability-wise.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It is doable, just very hard. Having a -2 against the best character in the game is already good enough to hold you back viability-wise.

I can't agree enough. It's not the fact that it's SOLELY a -2 MU, it's a -2 MU with one of the most common characters in bracket. That is kind of damning and really hard to work around.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I'll not doubt that Sonic is Top 10, sure. Brawl Sonic was effective in his own way, he was just marred by a silly Wolf, Snake, Falco, Wario, and MK MU, but the latter three got surgically nerfed in ways that benefitted Sonic greatly between games. He's likely Top 10 now because Sonic had the makings for Top 10 before, and now all the obstacles were cast aside.

But Mario and Fox simply got more out of it between games - you'll never see Fox players wish to have their old Usmash back if it meant Sheik could get her Ftilt lock back - and managed to keep what they had after the patches. And Cloud and Bayonetta popped up to steal the thunder as well.

Sonic is valid in his own right currently, he just isn't the juggernaut he was before.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sonic is definitely top 10. In terms of results, the only thing he is lacking is top 8s at majors for some reason.

Maybe because he is FAR too honest at the top level?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Mega Man sheik is a 1-9, Greninja sheik is probably 3-7.

Although 1-9 in smash community means 67.46- 32.54 because we definitely don't have any 3-7 matchup because our game is super balanced.

While I agree with the sentiment behind your post, you're kinda waxing hyperbolic with the whole MM/Sheik ratio, lol

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jamurai]

Who is a -2 for Pika except for Mario though? Certainly not Sheik, probably not Luigi, not Villager (ESAM losing to Ranai does not suggest that; Ranai is amazing and the matchup's about even), and Ness doesn't seem quite bad enough to be -2, though I find that matchup to be the most arguable.

I think people are jumping the gun calling Pikachu a mid tier character all of a sudden. I can understand a drop to around where Ness and Villager are, and perhaps can accept Lucario being above him since Lucario's insane, but a character of Pika's calibur should not be falling below that. Pikachu still boasts a superb neutral, one of the best burst mobility moves in the game, if not the best, top 5 edgeguarding, a stellar recovery, one of the better matchups against Sheik and what is still a great matchup spread despite losing hard to a common character like Mario.

This isn't another Yoshi situation. Yoshi's results have always been middling and people had been calling him top tier since the game came out before he or anyone else really got the chance to do anything. Not to mention that he's been notorious for being annoying online. Yoshi's still a strong character with his mobility, Egg Lay, eggs, versatility, etc., but I've never felt that he was particularly amazing or much better than Greninja during my days of co-maining and secondarying him. Pikachu has always felt like a top tier and ESAM and NAKAT have shown us glimpses of that, if I dare say it, "potential" on more than a couple occasions.

"Solid mid tier" maybe, but I don't think it's jumping the gun to call Pika low-high or high-mid tier; I would be quite happy putting him among the likes of Wario, Greninja and Mewtwo. Thinking of ESAM's results in this context makes perfect sense, he's an amazing player who gets pretty far at most events, but something holds him back from getting in the money consistently... his character. Also people have been doubting this character's supposed top-tier status for ages now.

Losing to several relevant characters (Mario, Sheik & MK at least) and going more or less even with the rest is not a 'great matchup spread'. It's not just about who you don't lose to anyway, but also about who you beat. Going down the tier list (and do correct me if I'm wrong) the first character he definitely beats is Captain Falcon.

EDIT: Rewording.

 

[BunbUn129]

Who is a -2 for Pika except for Mario though? Certainly not Sheik, probably not Luigi, not Villager (ESAM losing to Ranai does not suggest that; Ranai is amazing and the matchup's about even), and Ness doesn't seem quite bad enough to be -2, though I find that matchup to be the most arguable.

I think people are jumping the gun calling Pikachu a mid tier character all of a sudden. I can understand a drop to around where Ness and Villager are, and perhaps can accept Lucario being above him since Lucario's insane, but a character of Pika's calibur should not be falling below that. Pikachu still boasts a superb neutral, one of the best burst mobility moves in the game, if not the best, top 5 edgeguarding, a stellar recovery, one of the better matchups against Sheik and what is still a great matchup spread despite losing hard to a common character like Mario.

This isn't another Yoshi situation. Yoshi's results have always been middling and people had been calling him top tier since the game came out before he or anyone else really got the chance to do anything. Not to mention that he's been notorious for being annoying online. Yoshi's still a strong character with his mobility, Egg Lay, eggs, versatility, etc., but I've never felt that he was particularly amazing or much better than Greninja during my days of co-maining and secondarying him. Pikachu has always felt like a top tier and ESAM and NAKAT have shown us glimpses of that, if I dare say it, "potential" on more than a couple occasions.

Also Sonic shouldn't be dropping much, if at all. The nerfs may keep from top 5, especially with our new DLC friends competing for those slots now, but let's remember all those 1st and 2nd place national placements from KEN and Komorikiri in Japan and Sonic pretty much consistently making it to Top 16 at American nationals with 6WX and Heero/Manny, with the occasional appearance from Seagull Joe. Sonic barely has killing issues like some have been saying. Kill throws are still kill throws and Sonic has three of them, even if back throw is as overtuned as it was before. His f-smash is still amazing with its range and low endlag and kills very well in spite of the nerf. His spin dash KO confirms (to B-air and U-air -> Spring U-air) still exist and his edgeguards with spring, b-air and f-air can also net him kills pretty well. Then you have the mobility, Spin Dash mixups, Spring Jump -> D-air out of juggles, etc. that everyone should know. Easily top 11 and in the higher end of the 6-10 range imo.

A lot of people would question your post right at the point you said "great matchup spread." Pikachu does NOT have the matchup spread of a high tier.

55-45 AT BEST. I don't get how some people are arguing the MU is even. Sheik still wins neutral and can combo Pikachu hard. Meanwhile, Pikachu can't kill the girl and has to work hard to hit her recovery. Sheik beats Pikachu in neutral, frame data, combos, and KOing ability. It's easily 60-40, and I question whether Pikachu is one of the best picks vs Sheik, as some say.

possible even, but again, results are currently favoring these two characters. I'd say ZSS beats Pika, if only for her early KOing ability, though her average neutral means it will never be as bad as Sheik.

Pikachu loses. MK is pretty obvious: early KO setups, and an effectively untouchable recovery. As I said in another post, Tyrant and Jband have beaten ESAM even though ESAM was outplaying them. Mario has been done to death. Finally, Fox's neutral is on par with Pika's, and his up air juggles do death as in every other MU, along with good KO setups into up smash. Diddy probably wins neutral, and has reliable KOing ability with his banana and d tilt into his smashes. To Pikachu's merit, aside from MK, these characters have exploitable recoveries (though a good player will learn to mix these up).

I'll be honest, I don't have much knowledge about these, but I'd guess Pikachu loses against Bayo and Ryu and is even with Sonic and Cloud. Cloud outranges Pikachu and has his early limit KO's, but OTOH, he should get destroyed by Pika offstage. Ryu has excellent frame data and KO setups, but a still exploitable recovery. DJ Jack has taken at least a set off ESAM. Idk about Bayo, still too early to say, though I expect it is in her favor. She's difficult to edgeguard and has crazy KO setups, but she likely has difficulty dealing with QA.

Edit: compare Pika's MU's to some other top 10's. Sheik is Sheik, let's be fair. ZSS loses slightly only to Sheik. Rosa loses badly only to ZSS and MK. MK loses badly only to Sheik. Mario loses to MK. Diddy loses to Rosa. Ryu loses to Sheik and (maybe) MK. You see it, yet? Most other top 10's lose only in one or two MU's.

TL; DR Pikachu arguably goes even with Sonic, but then loses to everyone else in the top 10, among others. The only relevant character Pikachu solidly counters is Falcon, and even Falcon is slowly losing ground at the high level, making this MU less significant. That said, how can anyone argue and say Pikachu has a "great" MU spread, let alone top 5? PIkachu is NOT a top 5 character, neither in theory nor results, and is very debatably top 10.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Sonic doesn't lose to Cloud though. Neither ZSS. 6WX hasn't been having good results lately. He is an amazing Sonic, but maybe he is just getting rust. Those MU are even. I can also say that Mario is the most even match up with Sonic. Mario has the tools to combo Sonic for days, but Sonic just comes backs with his damage racking and good edgeguarding game. Ally is really 6WX rival. And Ally just has a plan for any Sonic strategy that he encounters.

Sonic really loses to Rosalina, Ike and Yoshi though.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Mewtwo keeps on getting better placements with 17th at SF2. He might've gotten farther but he had to fight Ranai or Tweek, and got Ranai.

 

[Yikarur]

I will never understand how people can label Mario-Pikachu as +2 for Mario. Mario doesn't even have any abusive strength to have such an advantage over an overall solid character.

 

[BunbUn129]

I will never understand how people can label Mario-Pikachu as +2 for Mario. Mario doesn't even have any abusive strength to have such an advantage over an overall solid character.

It's nevertheless advantageous for Mario, both theory-wise and results-wise. Mario has combos, a safe and strong KO move in his up smash and KO throw, and a good neutral thanks to his bair poke and projectile and overall good frame data. Pikachu wins in neutral, his combo game is roughly on par, but loses in the KO department. In theory, Pikachu should destroy Mario offstage, but in reality, any good Mario player will mix up his recovery. What costs Pikachu this MU is the same reason as with his other losing MU's: far too much difficulty KOing + light weight= dies early to rage (this is mainly why Pika loses to MK, it's -1, but could turn into a -2 if Pika continues to die at 10%).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I will never understand how people can label Mario-Pikachu as +2 for Mario. Mario doesn't even have any abusive strength to have such an advantage over an overall solid character.

That's very true. A +2 for Mario doesn't really make sense here. I think it's a solid 60:40 in Mario's favor, which is honestly bad enough. No good character loses to Mario, let alone to that extent.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

On a side note, all this talk of pikachu's "results" being disappointing are pretty unfair when you consider that high level play has literally one serious pikachu main, a man who has even admitted that school overwhelms his ability to lab and get consistency.

 

[BunbUn129]

On a side note, all this talk of pikachu's "results" being disappointing are pretty unfair when you consider that high level play has literally one serious pikachu main, a man who has even admitted that school overwhelms his ability to lab and get consistency.

No one is saying ESAM is a bad player or anything. I honestly believe ESAM would have won a national by now if he mained a character like ZSS, MK, or Ryu (basically any character with better KO ability). Even though I main MK, I feel sorry for ESAM for losing to Tyrant and Jband. LIke I said twice, he was clearly outplaying them in neutral, and I honestly think he's a better player than them. I mean, just watch how his last match against Jband ended. The general consensus is that ESAM is a great player who is unfortunately held back by his character.

However, what people hate about ESAM is how he overrates Pikachu, and I can see why. I'm sorry, ESAM, but Pikachu isn't the 2nd best character in the game.

Edit: even if ESAM had consistent results, he's still the only fully dedicated top-level main. Every other high tier has at least 2 or 3 fully dedicated players.

 

[bc1910]

On a side note, all this talk of pikachu's "results" being disappointing are pretty unfair when you consider that high level play has literally one serious pikachu main, a man who has even admitted that school overwhelms his ability to lab and get consistency.

This excuse didn't cut it with Greninja before Some and iStudy started putting in work, so I don't see why Pika should get away with it.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

This excuse didn't cut it with Greninja before Some and iStudy started putting in work, so I don't see why Pika should get away with it.

Greninja is an extremely unfamiliar matchup in top level play. Most people slept on iStudying at b6, or came very close to beating him at the end.

 

[BunbUn129]

Greninja is an extremely unfamiliar matchup in top level play. Most people slept on iStudying at b6, or came very close to beating him at the end.

No it's not very familiar. Greninja lacks notable presence at top level play in the US. His results have been much better in Japan and Europe though. And most people came close to beating him likely because they were using better characters (eg MVD's Diddy).

Edit: I misread your comment, sorry I'm dumb. Never mind what I said.

 

[deepseadiva]

It seems a bit weird to me to criticize posts positioning Bayonetta right now when speculative admission goes without saying in this thread.

I'm glad for this. It's particularly boring to read purposefully watered down opinions as well. Several posters in here seem more concerned about being "right" in the long run and posting flexible half-opinions, rather than an objective critique of the state of the meta as-is.

Yes we KNOW we don't have a lot of data right now. Regardless we do have the complete game now.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

If anything, the meta has only gotten better for pika since recent patches. With one of pika's worst matchups getting the nerf hammer and becoming less relevant as a result (luigi), and more high tier characters coming into the fray with easily gimped recoveries (Cloud, Ryu, Corrin), I think the current meta is better for pika than, say, 1.1.0 or previous times when pika was also considered high tier. He does have a guaranteed kill confirm with u throw thunder, it's just hard to master and perhaps requires just a bit more effort than picking up cloud and throwing out ******** good hitboxes.

Also, to those of you who think pika loses badly to sheik, I'm sorry selective amnesia has made you forget super smash con, but if you're willing to go look at esam face off against smash 4's most deadly and consistent sheik main only to lose literally by one stock on game five, be my guest.

 

[Vipermoon]

I will never understand how people can label Mario-Pikachu as +2 for Mario. Mario doesn't even have any abusive strength to have such an advantage over an overall solid character.

That isn't exactly true. I see Esam deal with these things all the time against Mario:

-Frame 3 Nair to stop QA and break out of Pikachu's plethora of almost combos
-Caping all specials
-kill power, damage, and frame data

Not abusive, sure, but he has a clear advantage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Pika is certainly going to be moving down, but saying he'll end up in mid tier is kinda silly. He'll be end of A tier/somewhere in B tier.

 

[BunbUn129]

If anything, the meta has only gotten better for pika since recent patches. With one of pika's worst matchups getting the nerf hammer and becoming less relevant as a result (luigi), and more high tier characters coming into the fray with easily gimped recoveries (Cloud, Ryu, Corrin), I think the current meta is better for pika than, say, 1.1.0 or previous times when pika was also considered high tier. He does have a guaranteed kill confirm with u throw thunder, it's just hard to master and perhaps requires just a bit more effort than picking up cloud and throwing out ******** good hitboxes.

Also, to those of you who think pika loses badly to sheik, I'm sorry selective amnesia has made you forget super smash con, but if you're willing to go look at esam face off against smash 4's most deadly and consistent sheik main only to lose literally by one stock on game five, be my guest.

Super Smash Con is very outdated at this point. A set that took place 7 months ago is not relevant at all, IMO. MU's are not set in stone, MU's are perceptions. They are based on theory and results, and results are constantly coming and changing. I'll give you an example: remember Leo vs Mr. R? Does that set mean MK hard counters Sheik? Frankly not, because MK has consistently lost to Sheiks since then. Pika's results have, if anything, only gotten worse over time, and even then, most high tiers are being picked up and refined. ESAM has always been and is still the only fully dedicated high level main.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Super Smash Con is very outdated at this point. A set that took place 7 months ago is not relevant at all, IMO. MU's are not set in stone, MU's are perceptions. They are based on theory and results, and results are constantly coming and changing. I'll give you an example: remember Leo vs Mr. R? Does that set mean MK hard counters Sheik? Frankly not, because MK has consistently lost to Sheiks since then. Pika's results have, if anything, only gotten worse over time, and even then, most high tiers are being picked up and refined. ESAM has always been and is still the only fully dedicated high level main.

For someone who has countlessly cited real tourney results in his crusade against the viability of pikachu at top level play, I find it odd that you dismiss esam's consistency vs zero so easily. You and others in this thread have argued that even though pika theoretically is even vs fox, he actually loses because of esam's performance vs larry lurr. Now, here I am arguing that esam's performance vs Zero indicates a decent matchup against sheik, and you're all of a sudden opposed to citing tournament results as matchup indication. I don't know why I bother arguing with people who will just flip flop when it's convenient to support their own pre conceived notions. Half of you critcizing pika's killing are still part of the hive mind mentality that uthrow to thunder isn't actually true. Sigh.

 

[BunbUn129]

Super Smash Con is very outdated at this point. A set that took place 7 months ago is not relevant at all, IMO. MU's are not set in stone, MU's are perceptions. They are based on theory and results, and results are constantly coming and changing. I'll give you an example: remember Leo vs Mr. R? Does that set mean MK hard counters Sheik? Pika's results have, if anything, only gotten worse over time, and even then, most high tiers are being picked up and refined. ESAM has always been and is still the only fully dedicated high level main.

For someone who has countlessly cited real tourney results in his crusade against the viability of pikachu at top level play, I find it odd that you dismiss esam's consistency vs zero so easily. You and others in this thread have argued that even though pika theoretically is even vs fox, he actually loses because of esam's performance vs larry lurr. Now, here I am arguing that esam's performance vs Zero indicates a decent matchup against sheik, and you're all of a sudden opposed to citing tournament results as matchup indication. I don't know why I bother arguing with people who will just flip flop when it's convenient to support their own pre conceived notions. Half of you critcizing pika's killing are still part of the hive mind mentality that uthrow to thunder isn't actually true. Sigh.

I don't believe I cited a tourney that took place 7 months ago, aside from Leo vs Mr. R, but I only used that to draw a comparison with the point you made. U throw thunder is not a consistent KO confirm. ESAM has to rinse and repeat it to finally land it. You can't react to that DI, you have to PREDICT it. And herein lies the problem: it requires too many prerequisites for the setup to work.

1) read DI
2) wait for an air dodge/ jump (or not in the case if it is true)
3) space it properly to land the correct hitbox

The fact that it's his only KO setup means literally anyone will be ready for it.

Compare that to, say, up tilt to Shoryuken. It's completely guaranteed if the up tilt is landed. Sheik's down throw up air is true at 110-130% depending on the character. MK and ZSS can react to DI off their up aerials, they don't need to predict DI.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I don't believe I cited a tourney that took place 7 months ago, aside from Leo vs Mr. R, but I only used that to draw a comparison with the point you made. U throw thunder is not a consistent KO confirm. ESAM has to rinse and repeat it to finally land it. You can't react to that DI, you have to PREDICT it. And herein lies the problem: it requires too many prerequisites for the setup to work.

1) read DI
2) wait for an air dodge/ jump (or not in the case if it is true)
3) space it properly to land the correct hitbox

The fact that it's his only KO setup means literally anyone will be ready for it.

Compare that to, say, up tilt to Shoryuken. It's completely guaranteed if the up tilt is landed. Sheik's down throw up air is true at 110-130% depending on the character. MK and ZSS can react to DI off their up aerials, they don't need to predict DI.

But you don't need to predict DI to land thunder. You react to the DI from visual cues from red knockback, and RAR in the appropriate direction.

 

[teddystalin]

For someone who has countlessly cited real tourney results in his crusade against the viability of pikachu at top level play, I find it odd that you dismiss esam's consistency vs zero so easily. You and others in this thread have argued that even though pika theoretically is even vs fox, he actually loses because of esam's performance vs larry lurr. Now, here I am arguing that esam's performance vs Zero indicates a decent matchup against sheik, and you're all of a sudden opposed to citing tournament results as matchup indication. I don't know why I bother arguing with people who will just flip flop when it's convenient to support their own pre conceived notions. Half of you critcizing pika's killing are still part of the hive mind mentality that uthrow to thunder isn't actually true. Sigh.

The current game count between ESAM and ZeRo since CEO is 6-21. Which is consistent, but not at all in a way that supports your argument. Factoring in ESAM's recent losses to Vinnie, K9, and Mr. R, it's impossible to cite ESAM's results when claiming that Sheik/Pika is a "decent" MU.

 

[BunbUn129]

The current game count between ESAM and ZeRo since CEO is 6-21. Which is consistent, but not at all in a way that supports your argument. Factoring in ESAM's recent losses to Vinnie, K9, and Mr. R, it's impossible to cite ESAM's results when claiming that Sheik/Pika is a "decent" MU.

And then you have to factor in ESAM is basically the only top level main, and it then becomes rip for Pikachu in the Sheik MU. At least MK has Leo destroying Sheiks to make that MU actually manageable.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm glad for this. It's particularly boring to read purposefully watered down opinions as well. Several posters in here seem more concerned about being "right" in the long run and posting flexible half-opinions, rather than an objective critique of the state of the meta as-is.

Yes we KNOW we don't have a lot of data right now. Regardless we do have the complete game now.

Just wanna reiterate cuz this post is ****ing GOLD, as well as echoing my sentiments.

This is the game. These are the chars that can do work. We know who they are. We know who is getting results and who isn't. Lets stop bull****ting and analyze this **** like we are all here to do. Trying to be right is disingenuous. It will only hold us back from getting a real handle on the meta.

Also Ally still ****ing with Mario?

Elliot wtf.

 

[Shadow Blitz]

I've seen a lot of people state that and are held back heavily in viability thanks to there abysmal matchups with. I just have one question for the purpose of discussion. I think loses badly to (most Rosalina mains say it's 70:30 or 80:20), why does that not hold her back like the aforementioned two characters?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Probably because sheik is a much more centralizing metagame force than metaknight.

 

[BunbUn129]

I've seen a lot of people state that and are held back heavily in viability thanks to there abysmal matchups with. I just have one question for the purpose of discussion. I think loses badly to (most Rosalina mains say it's 70:30 or 80:20), why does that not hold her back like the aforementioned two characters?

It's most likely because Rosaluma's overall MU spread is much better than Greninja and MM. For Rosa, MK is probably her only 70-30 MU, and she goes even or wins against most other characters. You also have to take into account that MK isn't nearly as common as Sheik.

 

[A10theHero]

I told myself that I wouldn't come back here, but looks like I'm breaking that promise. RIP.
First things first, yes, Pikachu doesn't deserve his current spot on the tier list. We can only theorize why the BR members rated him so highly. In my opinion, they probably just put more emphasis on his theory rather than his results, as unfair as that may sound.

Spoiler: Mini rant about ESAM and the BR

ESAM is not a part of the BR. He had no direct influence in the voting process whatsoever. I read through the entire thread and several times people blamed him for Pikachu's position. And only once did I see someone say that ESAM isn't a member of the BR (and even then, a little while after that post, someone still said it was ESAM's fault for Pikachu's position ). Even then, all you had to do was look at the standard deviation of the votes. If there was an outlier in Pikachu's votes, the SD would be much higher. Yet, the standard deviations of Ryu, Pikachu, and Sonic are all pretty similar. Stuff like this makes me think this thread just holds a grudge against Pikachu. Don't get me wrong, there are legitimate claims to be made about him. But this? Really? Anyone could look at the standard deviations. Anyone could look at the member list too. Come on people, you're better than this.

You know, there's a point where when you keep calling a character overrated, you eventually start to underrate him. Like, there is no shortage of posts where people talk about Pikachu's flaws. But ones about his pros are few and hard to come by. Yet, is it too much to consider both when discussing a character? Presently, he can struggle to kill (more on this later), certain aerials have a lot of endlag*, and he's small so he dies early. Because of the latter con, making mistakes is very costly with Pikachu. A lack of knowledge can be punished hard. You need to know how to respond to a given situation. It's not that Pikachu lacks the tools to deal with most things, it's moreso being aware of that and properly executing the response. In my opinion, that's why you're definitely not gonna see many top level Pikachu players. Why deal with that when there's Cloud, ZSS, Sheik, and Bayonetta, who aren't punished as hard for not knowing how to deal with the situation?

Now, onto his pros. Pikachu has an amazing neutral, a tool that can both apply and escape pressure, a hurtbox that is often contorted into weird and awkward ways (this is the main benefit in the double-edged sword that is being a small character), a moveset that flows well together (giving the ability to rack up damage at low percents quickly), and an amazing edgeguarding ability. Edgeguarding especially has the potential to net Pikachu some early kills but it is extremely volatile--Pikachu has so many options to attack a recovering opponent offstage or from the ledge, that it can be overwhelming sometimes. (Remember what I said about needing to know an appropriate choice in a given situation? That contributes to this volatility.)
Note: There's also jablocking but it isn't as important to address right now.

With all of this present information, saying that he's a midtier character is definitely an overstatement (or understatement?).

Spoiler: *

This is the data for landing lag on Pikachu's aerials (taken from Kurogane Hammer):
Nair = 25 frames
Fair = 15 frames
Bair = 30 frames
Uair = 24 frames
Dair = 40 frames

The two aerials with the highest amount of landing lag make it seem like Pikachu's problem is worse than it really is. Dair is usually performed out of a SH, and this lets it autocancel. Bair has quite a bit of landing lag, but it shrinks Pikachu's hurtbox substantially while he's on the ground, letting him avoid many different moves. It's still technically a con, but it's not as bad as it seems.

As such, Pikachu's biggest flaw is killing. Enter Up Throw to Thunder. This combo can be true under all circumstances, but it is not easy to perform. Not one bit. In my opinion, it will definitely be a while before we see its widespread implementation. Probably the most important question is whether or not ESAM can successfully use this combo. If you've seen his video on his experience with Beast 6, you'll know that he hasn't exactly been practicing it that much. Don't ask me why though. I'm not his mother. According to ESAM, it only had a success rate of about 20% in that tournament. In the future, with further optimization and practice, it can be better. And if this can compensate for Pikachu's main flaw, he definitely could deserve his current position on the tier list in the future (but again, not right now).
Note: I don't know how much he practiced for SF2. I don't know what his success rate was. I don't know. So don't ask me. He hasn't really talked about it in a video yet.

This leads to a much bigger issue specifically in relation to this thread. ESAM is not an optimized Pikachu player (and by optimized, I mean by the standards of Pikachu's present meta. ESAM currently doesn't do everything we currently know is good for Pikachu.). I don't know if you guys noticed this, but ESAM likes to play aggressively. He likes to take risks and get rewarded for it. That is definitely an integral part of Pikachu's playstyle, but it is incomplete. A defensive, safer playstyle should also be used in synergy with this offensive style. Down Tilt is +1 on shield. RAR SH Uair is a good shield poking tool as well (by the standards of short characters, who don't tend to have much range to begin with). Only in fairly recent times has ESAM begun to implement some of these tools, mainly Down Tilt, in his gameplay.

This hopefully can give some explanation as to why he may rate a matchup as more favorable than his record seems to be. ESAM admits that he isn't playing Pikachu to its full potential (again, by the standards of what we currently know about the rat). So he puts more blame on himself than on Pikachu.

Given this information, usually how I look at ESAM's matches are like this: What were ESAM's options in a given situation? Could he have done something better? What would've been the result? Did the opponent have the tools to respond properly to this choice? Basically, stuff like that. When you only have one main top player whose matches you have to analyze, simply drawing conclusions from the victory screen doesn't say a whole lot. There are plenty of factors that could have affected the results (for example, at Genesis 3, ESAM wasn't feeling well to the point that he couldn't feel his legs for a while), so it's important to think about these things. Please understand that I'm not trying to john. This is the unfortunate limitation of results when the sample size is so small. Accommodations have to be made.

The future of Pikachu for me is uncertainty. I could definitely see him taking a drop to the bottom of high tier. Or he might actually keep his spot. I can't answer that. So I just spend my days in the Pikachu boards dealing with questions I can answer.

But you don't need to predict DI to land thunder. You react to the DI from visual cues from red knockback, and RAR in the appropriate direction.

Can confirm. I had made a post on this a while back: http://smashboards.com/threads/esams-pikachu-guide-discussion.430011/#post-20899668
In short, it is possible to react to it based on the visual cues of up throw, but you need to have mastered the inputs so that you can focus more on your opponent's path of travel than on Pikachu.

tl;dr Yeah, Pikachu doesn't currently deserve his position on the tier list, but *important stuff* so whether he earns it in the future or not is anyone's guess

Alright, that's about all I have to say. Thank you to those of you who read everything I wrote.
*tips hat and flies off to the moon*

 

[Solfiner]

You know, there's a point where when you keep calling a character overrated, you eventually start to underrate him. Like, there is no shortage of posts where people talk about Pikachu's flaws. But ones about his pros are few and hard to come by.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about Ness and Ryu nowadays.

 

[BunbUn129]

I told myself that I wouldn't come back here, but looks like I'm breaking that promise. RIP.
First things first, yes, Pikachu doesn't deserve his current spot on the tier list. We can only theorize why the BR members rated him so highly. In my opinion, they probably just put more emphasis on his theory rather than his results, as unfair as that may sound.

Spoiler: Mini rant about ESAM and the BR

ESAM is not a part of the BR. He had no direct influence in the voting process whatsoever. I read through the entire thread and several times people blamed him for Pikachu's position. And only once did I see someone say that ESAM isn't a member of the BR (and even then, a little while after that post, someone still said it was ESAM's fault for Pikachu's position ). Even then, all you had to do was look at the standard deviation of the votes. If there was an outlier in Pikachu's votes, the SD would be much higher. Yet, the standard deviations of Ryu, Pikachu, and Sonic are all pretty similar. Stuff like this makes me think this thread just holds a grudge against Pikachu. Don't get me wrong, there are legitimate claims to be made about him. But stuff like? Really? Anyone could look at the standard deviations. Anyone could look at the member list too. Come on people, you're better than this.

You know, there's a point where when you keep calling a character overrated, you eventually start to underrate him. Like, there is no shortage of posts where people talk about Pikachu's flaws. But ones about his pros are few and hard to come by. Yet, is it too much to consider both when discussing a character? Presently, he can struggle to kill (more on this later), certain aerials have a lot of endlag*, and he's small so he dies early. Because of the latter con, making mistakes is very costly with Pikachu. A lack of knowledge can be punished hard. You need to know how to respond to a given situation. It's not that Pikachu lacks the tools to deal with most things, it's moreso being aware of that and properly executing the response In my opinion, that's why you're definitely not gonna see many top level Pikachu players. Why deal with that when there's Cloud, ZSS, Sheik, and Bayonetta, who aren't punished as hard for not knowing how to deal with the situation?

Now, onto his pros. Pikachu has an amazing neutral, a tool that can both apply and escape pressure, a hurtbox that is often contorted into weird and awkward ways (the main benefit in the double-edged sword that is being a small character), a moveset that flows well together, giving the ability to rack up damage at low percents quickly, and an amazing edgeguarding ability. Edgeguarding has the potential to net Pikachu some early kills but it is extremely volatile--Pikachu has so many options to attack a recovering opponent offstage or from the ledge, that it can be overwhelming sometimes. (Remember what I said about needing to know an appropriate choice in a given situation? That contributes to this volatility.)
Note: There's also jablocking but it isn't as important to address right now.

With all of this present information, saying that he's a midtier character is definitely an overstatement.

Spoiler: *

This is the data for landing lag on Pikachu's aerials (taken from Kurogane Hammer):
Nair = 25 frames
Fair = 15 frames
Bair = 30 frames
Uair = 24 frames
Dair = 40 frames

The two aerials with the highest amount of landing lag make it seem like Pikachu's problem is worse than it really is. Dair is usually performed out of a SH, and this lets it autocancel. Bair has quite a bit of landing lag, but it shrinks Pikachu's hurtbox substantially while he's on the ground, letting him avoid many different moves. It's still technically a con, but it's not as bad as it seems.

As such, Pikachu's biggest flaw is killing. Enter Up Throw to Thunder. This combo can be true under all circumstances, but it is not easy to perform. Not one bit. In my opinion, it will definitely be a while before we see its widespread implementation. Probably the most important question is whether or not ESAM can successfully use this combo. If you've seen his video on his experience with Beast 6, you'll know that he hasn't exactly been practicing it that much. Don't ask me why though. I'm not his mother. According to ESAM, it only had a success rate of about 20% in that tournament. In the future, with further optimization and practice, it can be better. And if this can compensate for Pikachu's main flaw, he definitely could deserve his current position on the tier list in the future (but again, not right now).
Note: I don't know how much he practiced for SF2. I don't know what his success rate was. I don't know. So don't ask me. He hasn't really talked about it in a video yet.

This leads to a much bigger issue specifically in relation to this thread. ESAM is not an optimized Pikachu player (and by optimized, I mean by the standards of Pikachu's present meta. ESAM currently doesn't do everything we currently know is good for Pikachu.). I don't know if you guys noticed this, but ESAM likes to play aggressively. He likes to take risks and get rewarded for it. That is definitely an integral part of Pikachu's playstyle, but it is incomplete. A defensive, safer playstyle should also be used in synergy with this offensive style. Down Tilt is +1 on shield. RAR SH Uair is a good shield poking tool as well (by the standards of short characters, who don't tend to have much range to begin with). Only in fairly recent times has ESAM begun to implement some of these tools, mainly Down Tilt, in his gameplay.

This hopefully can give some explanation as to why he may rate a matchup as more favorable than his record seems to be. ESAM admits that he isn't playing Pikachu to its full potential (again, by the standards of what we currently know about the rat). So he puts more blame on himself than on Pikachu.

Given this information, usually how I look at ESAM's matches are like this: What were ESAM's options in a given situation? Could he have done something better? What would've been the result? Did the opponent have the tools to respond properly to this choice? Basically, stuff like that. When you only have one main top player whose matches you have to analyze, simply drawing conclusions from the victory screen doesn't say a whole lot. There are plenty of factors that could have affected the results (for example, at Genesis 3, ESAM wasn't feeling well to the point that he couldn't feel his legs for a while), so it's important to think about these things. Please understand that I'm not trying to john. This is the unfortunate limitation of results when the sample size is so small. Accommodations have to be made.

The future of Pikachu for me is uncertainty. I could definitely see him taking a drop to the bottom of high tier. Or he might actually keep his spot. I can't answer that. So I just spend my days in the Pikachu boards dealing with questions I can answer.


Can confirm. I had made a post on this a while back: http://smashboards.com/threads/esams-pikachu-guide-discussion.430011/#post-20899668
In short, it is possible to react to it based on the visual cues of up throw, but you need to have mastered the inputs so that you can focus more on your opponent's path of travel than on Pikachu.

tl;dr Yeah, Pikachu doesn't currently deserve his position on the tier list, but *important stuff* so whether he earns it in the future or not is anyone's guess

Alright, that's about all I have to say. Thank you to those of you who read everything I wrote.
*tips hat and flies off to the moon*

Logically, people aren't going to discuss a character's strengths very much if they're overrated, and vice-versa is true. We're putting emphasis on his issues to prove our point of him being obnoxiously high. I mean, ffs, there are some people here who say he should go down a full 20 spots.

Interesting comment, still, thanks for the nice read.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja is an extremely unfamiliar matchup in top level play. Most people slept on iStudying at b6, or came very close to beating him at the end.

I don't even know what your point is.

Nothing you've said changes the fact that Pika having no rep shouldn't be an excuse for him not living up to his tier placement.

 

[C0rvus]

One thing I've been thinking about is grabs and the state of the meta. Grabbing is pretty strong in this game. Best it's ever been (save for PM imo but who cares). But I've always been of the opinion that throw combos and kill throws are like, the most important thing. You need them to be consistent as a character. But Cloud ****s on that notion. Perhaps it's a place to take his MU but his grab and throws are ass, and he's still taking names left and right. Is it because his other tools are just so good? Or have I been overhyping grabs? Both, probably.

Bayonetta's grab is ass but she has some okay throw stuff. She rarely seems to need it in the top level matches we have seen so far. She can kill just fine with her special moves and ceiling combos.

Yoshi has had no presence lately but he's still a solid character despite having essentially no grab game. It certainly is the biggest thing that holds him back, but he's low high or upper mid while not possessing that meta trait at all.

Fox is still very good. His throw pretty much only exists to make people not want to hold shield against him. He has some little combos out of throws at various percents, but he doesn't really need them when he gets 50/50 situations after hitting a dash attack and his normals are pretty great.

Ness is the poster boy of how strong grabbing is. It sets up consistent damage. His back throw is the most reliable kill setup in the game. But he's kind of fallen out of favor in the past year or so.

Maybe the meta is moving away from grabs as we all get better at harder punishes and playing the neutral. Or maybe the DLC characters are just super busted lmao.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cloud is extremely broken and overtuned in various other areas. This is why can get away with grabs that arent good.

 

[warionumbah2]

Dabuz is the only top Rosalina to not lose to MK. Dabuz has a special factor where he dodges good MKs and cleans off the scrubs. I guarantee Dabuz will never play Abadango because of his powers.

Rayquaza got beaten hard by Katakiri. Kirihara lost to Abadango convincingly. Falln loses to Tyrant and Ito. Xaltis doesn't go Rosa vs Seibrik to my knowledge. Don't know what Rosa's worry about, MKs rep isn't even high. It never was. Everyone pockets Cloud now so no pocket MKs to scare them not like it works since they don't lab the MU or the character even.