Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fatmanonice]

Am I the only one who thinks that Cloud gimps better than he is gimped?

Not sure if I phrased that correctly though

No, I think you're right. Short hopped nair forward and backwards offstage is snorting raw wasabi levels of stupid. Aside from this, even the basic blade beam is pretty effective at stealing kills if the character has an average of less recovery. Cloud's ledge trump options are stupidly good too. This is further complicated by how Cloud just has to stand by the ledge to put on a ton of pressure because of sheer number of options he has even without the limit being on.

 

[Shaya]

Shaya Mind sharing your thoughts on who can threaten his recovery? I only ask because I love to edge guard in Melee and PM, but it's very different in Smash 4. It might help me find my character.

I was thinking to myself "I've stated this a few times as a rough estimate, I should look more into it"

So let's start with some ground rules then of what constitutes "things cloud can't just laugh at trying to get through".
A Cloud recovering low is in a lot more danger than a Cloud recovering high, many a character can attempt to punish him ledge snapping. However most characters still don't really have a move they can reliably use due to the hitbox sizes of climhazzard. They're going to get hit before they can hit Cloud.
But one only needs to trade. Or, power shield climhazard and then do a fast punish (e.g. Fox down smash) and likely find a stock. Cloud can avoid this too however.

In my opinion, once Cloud is within a certain proximity to the ledge, the opportunity is already over for nearly every character. It's relying on a mess up to end him. A Mario getting fludd to cape on Cloud, at least from my perspective, is usually Cloud ****ing up.

Okay so blurb aside, traits I think help
1. A move with enough disjoint as to trade with Cloud's Up-B vertically/horizontally (as honestly, there aren't many moves which are more disjointed as to allow you to beat it).
2. A transcended, multi hitting or fast horizontal frame trapping projectile; as Cloud's Climhazard has a constant tangible hitbox on ascension which will lol through a diddy banana drop or most Peach turnips.
3. A multi hit special which will clank with Cloud's up-b and will continue the animation for the character - part 1 still partially applies. I haven't seen this in practice but I read from somewhere here once something about Luigi Tornado.
4. An invincible attack.

Now to repeat again, Cloud recovering high is a lot safer than recovering low. Forcing a jump out of Cloud is nearly impossible for most of the cast, hence if you don't have a way to do so [chances are you do not] you don't reliably pressure Cloud off stage. If you don't reliably pressure Cloud off stage, you aren't going to force him low where a subset of the aforementioned characters can reliably capitalize.

So with those in mind

- Witch Time, Down Air and Down Smash can end him low. But she is otherwise risking A LOT to try to cover him high. Neutral B shooting is a commitment and Cloud may be forced to recover low from it but if you're shooting you probably aren't going to be able to do something to stop Climhazard. I can see her tuning the off-stage game more in the future, but even with implementation of drop kick and nair interceptions Cloud still has significantly more priority to kill her for trying. M2K disemboweled 9B. Non-invincible legs should not apply.

- Thank goodness for having one of the most broken moves in the game in Side-B (if she didn't have it, I wouldn't bother listing her otherwise). This does require her to be higher than Cloud in position still to exert the required pressure. Can gambit with back air if he's recovering too high but cannot afford to try to do so at around stage height or below (unfortunately). Down Air is telegraphed hard and shouldn't be a common factor, countering climhazard for the same reason shouldn't be a common factor (hint: Cloud grabs the ledge with up-b backwards~). If Cloud ever gets near to the ledge though while maintaining his double jump, he's just has to worry about side-b (so looking at whether she's in the air or not). I'm not sure where the refinement of her off stage game is going to go; she has several feasible tools at least.

- Regular Pit more so, he can force something to happen with arrows and can try his luck at a nair trade or slicing through him at the right horizontal height with fair. Down-B is very strong against him attempting to recover high (climhazard up and down into a ledge snap being almost untouchable for everyone else).
Honorable mention to for being a lot more common a character and for ruining all the Clouds we're seeing on local streams since his release! (Definitely has a subset of near definite tools if Cloud is in a truly bad spot).

- "My forward air is actually big enough to challenge you". Cloud: "Okay :<"
"I also have disjoints that could feasibly be trading with you from on stage even covering backwards recovering and other little shindigs".
Cloud: "Wow are you like, a broken character or something?"
"No, not while Corrin is better than me at nearly everything else... BUT I HAVE A NICHE HERE; THANKS".
Corrin: "Why doesn't my forward air also do 13%, and only against Cloud, send horizontally? Thanks Sakurai, this on top of not having guaranteed follow ups from grabs which would allow side-b set ups that kill sub 100% means we're destined to be crap; why couldn't I cost $1 more!?!?!

- I can jump enough times to stall in an optimal position as such that I can attempt to trade with you on back air.
- I'm actually designed to end you; especially if I bucket three blade beams (unlikely, but then it really should be 100-0 situation). Oh but between back air trading and up-b's insane priority/invincibility, Cloud has to be extremely careful. Legitimately the only character who I think can jump off stage and yolo towards Cloud.
- Certain fruits; apple, bell. There's various potential throughout the kit that I would like to see played out.
- Back air to cover high. Up Smash to cover below on the ledge (and a bit high too, obviously). Can also neutral-b to chip damage and may bait an air dodge (hint: he shouldn't really air dodge this at all, 9% or maybe now being in a position where you need to use your jump awkwardly: you decide). Unfortunately though, not really covering it at all at the same time or being a guaranteed check mate. Warp's slow start up and no other way to challenge Cloud directly off stage other than with bair is problematic. Like Pit though, can attempt nair trades.
- I can fall towards you with a back air. Thunder to cover your pathing. Thunder Jolt may do something. I can get back to the stage if those fail faster than you.
- lasers, gyro, down air/nair trading; a disgusting back air. Difficult but he has all the tools necessary.
- Down Air? Down air. Luma things? Luma things.
- Needles win. Bouncing Fish wins. Vanish wins. Can dare to challenge off stage with forward air. Win Win Win
- Can attempt so many things to get in his way without overt risk. Climhazard will clank out spring ... sometimes? Forward Smash is somehow the best on stage 2 framer in the game for some reason?
Is able to fall into him with aerials and produce trades that will see the end of him.
I think it's mostly because of Sonic being able to get into optimal positions from securing an off-stage hit better than everyone else, more so than his kit having all the tools necessary. Either way, I've seen him achieve anti-Cloud things a lot.
- Fair, Bair, disjointed trading down airs, forward smash, nair chains to death.
Zair, and flip jump kick being bigger than him.. Thank goodness.
- mild hindsight: shuriken air stalls and hydro pump could be problematic.

Some are more dubious than others.
I would say the characters who are frequently always forcing respect in recovering are
(because everyone is freaking out against her all the time anyway, but not necessarily for a good reason).


And the only characters I've consistently see do anything to him at competent level of play are


I guess Clouds are too busy not losing at all or it not mattering because of limit side-b to actually see the other characters gimp him at tournaments.
SHAME.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think the big thing about patient play as it pertains to Smash is that it has a huge amount of stigma around it, to the point that many newer players are being told that it is simply the "wrong" way to play. What are some of the new questions that players have when they come to Smash 4?

"How do I beat a spamming, rolling player?"
"I consider myself a rushdown player, how do I approach better?"

What is the common response on any Smash stream, Smash 4 or otherwise, when a slower-paced match is happening? ResidentSleepers all around.

Players are being taught that patience is a sin, and that they need to end things swiftly and with style.

Of course patient play exists across all Smash games. Melee has plenty of patience too even in non-floaty matchups, it just doesn't look that way. The issue with players being impatient or jumping the gun exists in other fighting games too, and that's why video tutorials are made to address people's understanding of things like "neutral" and "footsies."

However, what dawned upon me recently is the sheer difference in terms of how, say, the Street Fighter community's teachers approach these topics vs. how the Smash community's teachers have done so. False's short video on neutral is a good starting point for Smash players to be sure, but compare the following two videos:

This is Kira's guide to playing the neutral as Fox in Melee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7euwVDL_In4
It's mainly focused on techniques, what moves are good for what, the advanced techniques you can utilize to trick your opponents, and so on.

This is James Chen's guide to whiff punishing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Rgk1CiZJ0
It breaks down conceptually what whiff punishing is, what makes it so complex, and how you can get better at it. It sets the techniques aside and combines philosophy with practicality.

Why didn't I pick a similar video for Smash? BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST (aside from the aforementioned False video, which is brief but good for what it is). Why aren't there resources like these for Smash players? Why are they always so focused on technology, and not the thinking that goes into improving your decision-making?

There's just a fundamental difference in how Smashers are being taught to play their games, and while patience and neutral and all that good stuff are long-standing concepts of fighting games, I don't believe they're being communicated enough to Smash players.

It was a long, hard battle to get Melee where it is today, a road paved by the discovery and exploitation of physics loopholes that allowed players to do things thought impossible (and nearly impossible to pull off consistently well). Respect is given to the game for it's execution barrier and bewildering speed that essentially masks patience. Then after the dismal failure of Brawl which took out most things that made Melee what it was, we got it stuck in our heads that Smash needs momentum-enhancing tech to be successful. Come Smash 4 and people desperately seek "the new wavedash", seemingly found in perfect pivots.

What we didn't realize was that since Smash 4 had far less abusive tactics, moves and characters, fundamentals actually became even more important.

 

[Megamang]

AND the fact that fair would be an amazing tool if it didn't spike, but it DOES, and bair kills, dair obviously kills and eats airdodges enough to reset the situation if they airdodge the dair.. especially since he is so mobile he will track the airdodge against most of the cast anyways.

They really knew what they were doing when they added them. I do like having more highly viable characters being added, even if that means we have to deal with the nebulous 'jank' that permeates our very being.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja can also threaten Cloud's recovery with Hydro Pump thanks to it being long ranged, it either makes Cloud plummet to his doom or sends him way high up in a way that his landing is very easily punishable. Greninja can also try to poke Cloud with some shurikens while he's offstage and B-Air is pretty fast so it can also catch Cloud offguard.

Edgeguarding is probably the one reason Cloud isn't another nightmare for Greninja. I still don't know how to rate that MU, but it's even at best, but I don't see it being -2 either.

 

[R3D3MON]

Shaya
Luigi Tornado works if you catch Cloud using his DJ to get back on stage. You can intercept it by mashing tornado at the top of his head hurtbox. This also extends to his climhazzard, but Luigi has to be positioned correctly so that he intercepts Cloud's head hurtbox when he rises with climhazzard and so that the Luigi player doesn't get dragged down by climhazzard since climhazzard has a bigger hitbox than Luigi's tornado (someone can correct me on this tho since I am not entirely sure). Overall it can become very risky for Luigi if he goes too deep offstage against Cloud since he could potentially be put in a reverse situation where Luigi may be gimped by Cloud if the Luigi player fails to properly gimp Cloud in the first place.

 

[Greward]

I truly believe that cloud and bayonetta will be overcentralizing the meta in short time. This is going to be kind off a rant but whatever.

I'm not going to say they're #1 and #2(tho I believe so), but the amount of characters they just invalidate is astonishing. Kind off old sagat from super turbo.

Cloud can just beat most of the cast by just platform camping. Most characters can't beat cloud with their own up airs and it's very hard to challenge a cloud in a platform. He can charge limit safely in most stages, if he feels threatened he can just fh dair and keep at it. Trying to challenge cloud in the air or juggle is very hard and limited to landing punishes or hitting him from the side if he did go for dair, it kinda creates a 50/50 when you are supposed to have the advantage.
He hits a sourspot dair? If he has limit he can combo into limit break which kills from 30% to 50%, else it can combo into other aerials (most usually up air) which kills or setups for juggles. And cloud has the best juggling capabilities in the game (and overall advantage game).
His combination of stupidly good up air that beats all dairs in the game (bar DDD, maybe?) while both having lingering hitbox, autocancel and excelent side range, combined with one of the best aerial speeds in the game and fast fall speed. Even if he misses the up air you are still in a horrible position. The other aerials also help at the juggle game because they're all amazing (even fair is good lol).
Even when he doesn't put you in a juggle position and sends you horizontally, you can't land on stage anyways. He is so fast he's already there to hit you back. Sonic and little mac do this as well, but they don't have nearly the same juggle options so you can go to platforms. When fighting Cloud best thing you can try is to airdodge your way to offstage and go to the ledge.
We already talked about him offstage (where he should be bad by design?). He's gimping more than he's getting gimped. On stage ledge coverage he's godly as well. Jump is usually the safest option, but you don't dare to jump out of ledge against cloud, even if you have a bouncing fish. Other options can be countered on reaction with good timing so yeah, and you can't let cloud get a read on you because it ****ing hurts.
His neutral is extremely abusive overall because he outbuttons all characters and you are forced to approach or he gets limit. Which is no good. He also outspeeds close to everyone both in the ground and air, while having way superior range with little recovery frames and a solid frame data.

So basically he's designed to have:
superb mobility
superb range
superb damage
superb kill power and kill options
pretty good frame data (why)
heavyweight
lingering hitboxes
limit overpowered bull**** that he can charge without having to cancel into shield like the rest of characters

All this is balanced by having a no-autospot recovery (if it had autospot it'd probably be top5 hardest to gimp in the game). It is actually very safe when recovering low.

what were they thinking


I don't want to argue his exact position but fighting him feels wrong, unfair. (most)Non-S tier characters just cry when they have to fight Cloud. I was a Brawl competitive player (top10ish in europe, not amazing but I'm not a random) and I didn't feel so wronged even when fighting MK or ICs, and I did have my fair share of getting beaten by tornado spam.

Overpowered DLCs is something not that rare to happen, and it's a shame it had to happen to our game.

I also wanted to write about bayonetta but this got too long... I truly wanna go back to 1.1.2.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'd add and to that list too. Their offstage games are fairly underrated.

- The soccer ball offstage has saved me so many times in this match up. If timed right or bounced off the stage, it can even knock Cloud out of Limit Cross Slash which is an absolute god send. Sun salutation offstage is pretty much the safest fully charged projectile to use for edge guarding because it doesn't push her back and doesn't interfere with her ability to recover since it barely has any end lag. This is especially useful if you're fighting on a stage that allows her to wall jump, further easing your mind about making it back on stage. Wii Fit also has two spikes (technically three but fair is super situational) and a long, strong hitting bair to round out her being a big threat offstage.

- Strings fo' days. Fair and bair strings to the blastzone are scary. Dragging down characters with average or worse recoveries with falling nairs is also effective. Bair and uair are suprizingly effective at stage spikes and, just today, I lost a game against a Mewtwo because I got stuck under Smashville against bair. Haven't seen too much of Mewtwo using shadow ball offstage but I think it has potential since Mewtwo no longer flies back a billion square feet after the December update and doesn't risk him screwing up his recovery or accidentally getting caught under a stage.

 

[Ffamran]

Thing is that when most Smash players think of movement, they think the unnecessary stuff like perfect pivot, dash dancing, etc. For gods sake, it's hard as hell to get players to walk instead of running everywhere.

Perfect pivot, dash dancing, wavedashing, pivot walking, that thing you can do with crouch... crouch slide? Whatever. They all add to your basic movement options: dashing (or foxtrotting which is basically the same thing: repeating dashes), jumping, hopping, rolling, running, walking, and if you character can, crawling. Are they necessary? Are they unnecessary? Depends really, especially on what game you're playing as wavedashing would be utterly useless in Smash 4 and Mortal Kombat as it doesn't exist in those games, but it's useful in Marvel, Melee, PM, and Tekken and also what character like Falco does get some mileage with pivot walk while Corrin? might not because of how she moves, but when you add them in, they're just more options upon options.

My problem with this is not "nothingness", but the fact basic movement is ignored. You can move well while offensively or playing defensively. In or out, footwork is highly prized in boxing and in or out, the ability to move well is highly prized in any combat situation. Fast or slow, moving well is just something useful. Fatality moves really fast with Captain Falcon; it's just how he moves. As mentioned before, Ryo and Trela tend to move slower and it works well. It's how well you move and it's kind of sad when there are some high level players who move like they have two left feet. This is especially notable with platforms... Can they get away with it? Yeah, but there's going to be a point where they have to move differently in some way and they're going to fail because all they know how to move is to rush in. For example, random gameplay of a Falco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swI38hDgptQ. No offense to either player, especially ColdWeather, but I don't think Coldweather moves well, however, he plays neutral well with Falco. Move up a bit and you've got Blacktwins' Falco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xQ8Goc5B5k. Still good whiff punishing and better movement. I don't know much about Rizner, but he really, really was running in way too much. Back off, man. Take some time and watch what your opponent is doing. Move up even more and you've got Nairo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOT774xmIqw. This is generalizing, but Japanese players tend to have really good movement and I love watching them move even if they end up losing: https://youtu.be/caLIdeBafJs?t=1024. Who cares about winning the fight when you're winning on the dance floor?

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Non-Falco example; KEN's Sonic vs. かめめ's Mega Man and Cloud: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTdhWWAIwz8.

But back to 4, there are definitely characters that can help train a walking playstyle. and do it to minimize exposure due to low traction (and both have one poor dash option, dash attack for Luigi and dash grab for Mewtwo). and would much rather walk and poke than use their punishable dash attacks (especially with the former's now very scary ftilt and of course fastest walk speed), heck even Speed can get some good mileage from it, and finally walking is literally what separates the boys from men.

By default swordfighters and gunners are less inclined to dash due to a more deliberate playstyle compared to brawlers.

Question: do you need to "train a walking playstyle"? This isn't directed to you, it's a followup to KumaOso's post. Walking is another option, good or bad. The problem is poor movement. If you've got a good walk, slow or fast, then make use of it. If you've got a bad walk, still try to make use of it. But it doesn't really matter if you're clumsily moving about. Some characters don't really need to walk like Fox who gets more mileage out of hopping more. Can he make use of walking? Yep, but does he need it? I don't think so.

The idea is walking opens up options. Quoting @Gunblade789 as Sebrik gets beat by Tweek: "And you see Sebrik already implementing that walk. That's a Brawl fundamental right there. Walking is always better than running because you have all your options open to you, so Sebrik not rushing in..." Walking lets you jab, use tilts, dash attack after dashing, Smashes, Specials, standing grab, dash grab or pivot grab after dashing, enter into dash, run, hop, jump, turnaround, shield, and stop. From a dash, you're limited to just dash attack, Up Smash, pivot tilts, pivot Smashes, Specials, dash grab, pivot grab, dashing again (for a foxtrot), running, hop, jump, turnaround, shield, and stop which takes longer because everyone slides while stopping themselves. Running takes away the ability to "instantly" jab, use tilts without pivoting, or other actions without having to stop. You can bypass the slide by hopping and landing, but not everyone has a good fast fall hop. Walking lets you do everything and can act as a movement option before running. The problem with this idea is not everyone has a good walk... not everyone even has a walk like how DK, Fox, Little Mac, Lucina, Marth, Sheik, and ZSS have jogs or a cute skip in Sheik's case that are sometimes as fast as below-average runs. Those who do have walks sometimes actually walk like Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Ike, and Ryu and they tend to be abysmally slow compared to some walks and compared to runs including their own.

Edit: I'd add Falco as another character who can "train a walking playstyle". This is because of the low differential between his run speed and walk speed along with how punishable dash attack is when whiffed or on-shield. Running is just a little faster, but walking, hopping, and jumping gives Falco more freedom.

However, what dawned upon me recently is the sheer difference in terms of how, say, the Street Fighter community's teachers approach these topics vs. how the Smash community's teachers have done so. False's short video on neutral is a good starting point for Smash players to be sure, but compare the following two videos:

This is Kira's guide to playing the neutral as Fox in Melee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7euwVDL_In4
It's mainly focused on techniques, what moves are good for what, the advanced techniques you can utilize to trick your opponents, and so on.

EDIT: This video from Kira is probably more appropriate for comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5WLjB8qOTE

This is James Chen's guide to whiff punishing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Rgk1CiZJ0
It breaks down conceptually what whiff punishing is, what makes it so complex, and how you can get better at it. It sets the techniques aside and combines philosophy with practicality.

Why didn't I pick a similar video for Smash? BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST (aside from the aforementioned False video, which is brief but good for what it is). Why aren't there resources like these for Smash players? Why are they always so focused on technology, and not the thinking that goes into improving your decision-making?

There's just a fundamental difference in how Smashers are being taught to play their games, and while patience and neutral and all that good stuff are long-standing concepts of fighting games, I don't believe they're being communicated enough to Smash players.

Bold statement: Movement is taken for granted in Smash. Movement in other fighting games, especially "traditional" 2D fighting games have "more limited" movement. You need to have good movement in those games. In Smash, you don't really have to as there's other options and movement is generally less restricted or feels less restricted. The result of this is that at low- to mid-level and sometimes even high-level play, people don't really have good movement. They might be good at some form of movement, but not overall good enough. Instinctively, they might even have good movement, but not even notice as movement is not heavily focused. Makes sense since in platformers, good movement is a required skill, so people are more likely to talk about strategies of beating a level, the secrets in a level, etc. over the "intricacies" of how Mario should be moving in Super Mario World. As Smash is a combination of fighting, platform, and "party" - that really a genre? -, the focus tends to shift over to fighting and "natural" platforming skills makes up movement. Sometimes that's good enough if you're good at platformers, but for some players... It's just bad... This is really noticeable with For Glory as input lag does factor in along with some players there just playing to win and for (their) fun, so they might not care about how or why a combo works, but the fact there is such a combo or why or how movement works, but that some top player moves like this. Not to mention the over-reliance on rolls and air dodges which is impacted by input lag making it difficult at times to punish them alongside projectiles and moves with low recovery. As Smash opened up through various means, more players come in with what is considered "bad fundamentals" which includes bad movement, except they're probably going to "fix" their "bad fundamentals" through means of learning "optimal punishes", "combos", "setups", and "tech skill" whatever that really means in Smash 4 when there aren't really much techs to begin with while ignoring another fundamental skill: movement.

It's not uncommon for new players to come in saying they "mastered techs" like I remember a person posting in the Melee Falco or Fox boards they mastered multi-Shines and wavedashing and wanted to know what else to practice... Then they got angry when other posters said you couldn't master those and they couldn't really answer other than the OP had to fight people... Okay, yeah, that's really bad. Not everyone has access to video capture, so we can't expect the OP to show them how he plays, but that doesn't mean we can't explain better, questioning or answering. For example, what if OP's movement was really not good? How do we teach OP to move better? Or what if OP's disadvantage is poor? How do we explain to OP lessen the problems of being in disadvantage? We can explain so well that Melee Fox can Shine to Dair, use Shine to pressure and edgeguard, hop laser, or U-throw to Uair, but can we really explain what Fox's moves do and what you should use those moves for? We can say use Falco's Ftilt to edgeguard in Melee, but what if an opponent whiffs? Ftilt? Perhaps Dtilt? Run up Shine? All of those could work, but why? Or rather, what else can those moves do? What else can Melee Falco's Ftilt do? I'd expect answers to all of this considering Melee's age and the study that went into it, but what about Smash 4? Can players of whatever character give a reason for every move in certain situations other than something like, "Use Falco's Dtilt to space"?

 

[Greward]

Shaya
I can confirm Mario fludd won't hit if he's recovering low (and doesn't fail hard). Same with dash attack and all his moveset.
Same with greninja upB.

Mega Man fsmash can actually beat it since it goes through moves but it's not realistical to hit that. I've had some success with leaf shield tho, it can beat climmhazard if he's below you. Bair could beat or trade with climmhazard... maybe. Down air will also win but it's hard to hit, other big dairs can also hit (DDD, cloud, yolo TL for example).

Bowser can hit him with fire breath, which does some damage (when recovering low). Down tilt will hit him on the 2 frame window only if he recovers with limit lol which is stupid, because it makes gimping easier if he does have limit. Angled down ftilt can hit but I'm not sure if it's because they mess up.

I kinda doubt pit and palutena's nair can actually trade with climmhazard... maybe from above but it looks kinda hard, they have to be on his head or back, and most moves would work hitting his back.

 

[Megamang]

You aren't wrong Greward, but there are similar design problems with Shiek, ZSS, Rosalina, and to a lesser extent all the high tiers. We saw a list of the characters that can edgeguard Cloud. Giving it at try with those, characters who can actually exploit his weakness, is somewhat worth it since while you have to make a play on the other person in neutral, you can actually win the game quickly from there. Prince Ramin gave M2k a really tough game recently, not in small part due to his powerful ledge game and effective nair gimps.

But Cloud isn't unparalleled. Tweek figured it out; pick a top tier. We have more options for that then ever before. Going back to ZSS is something I am very glad I have decided to do, with Cloud and Bayonetta in the game we actually have a diverse top and high tier. I still feel the game is more balanced than Brawl was still, as Cloud is ridiculous but I don't know how you don't prefer it to the BS that MK was... MK didn't even have the disadvantage state that Cloud does have, and his advantage was the best. We will see how it develops, but I feel that Cloud is more gimpable than we understand right now. Maybe it will give pikachu a nice spot in the meta.

Also, powershielding is pretty easy against fair. Nair, if you get a solid read (which isn't hard, considering it is usually blatant when they are going to nair) Uair is harder to powershield but actually doesn't have that much horizontal range... I'm comparing it to ZSS nair/Shiek fair, but it isn't infinite and it isn't Brawl MK Fair.

Anyways, I don't fear the reaper that much. He is clearly a top tier, but I agree that he is going to be an inconsistent top tier threat. ZSS can always Boost BS you off the top with enough rage, she actually punishes cross slash with grabs, and she zones better. I don't particularly fear Cloud, I'd rather fight a Cloud than a needle camping shiek, at least I get to interact and not get unreactably punished for landing.

 

[Shaya]

Cloud would also be in a lot worse of a situation if air dodges weren't so universally godlike.
If they cut out his invincibility frames on air dodge every character who could pose a threat would actually likely pose a threat.

Throwing out things that can get in his way matters little if you don't have the frame advantage after shooting it to punish what he does to avoid it. Tis why I have the "frame trapping" projectile note.

[Hence why my list approaching 20, with likely several other characters worth mentioning, are likely not playing out at tournament level right now / could be forever not actually seen at tournament level]

 

[Greward]

You aren't wrong Greward, but there are similar design problems with Shiek, ZSS, Rosalina, and to a lesser extent all the high tiers. We saw a list of the characters that can edgeguard Cloud. Giving it at try with those, characters who can actually exploit his weakness, is somewhat worth it since while you have to make a play on the other person in neutral, you can actually win the game quickly from there. Prince Ramin gave M2k a really tough game recently, not in small part due to his powerful ledge game and effective nair gimps.

But Cloud isn't unparalleled. Tweek figured it out; pick a top tier. We have more options for that then ever before. Going back to ZSS is something I am very glad I have decided to do, with Cloud and Bayonetta in the game we actually have a diverse top and high tier. I still feel the game is more balanced than Brawl was still, as Cloud is ridiculous but I don't know how you don't prefer it to the BS that MK was... MK didn't even have the disadvantage state that Cloud does have, and his advantage was the best. We will see how it develops, but I feel that Cloud is more gimpable than we understand right now. Maybe it will give pikachu a nice spot in the meta.

Also, powershielding is pretty easy against fair. Nair, if you get a solid read (which isn't hard, considering it is usually blatant when they are going to nair) Uair is harder to powershield but actually doesn't have that much horizontal range... I'm comparing it to ZSS nair/Shiek fair, but it isn't infinite and it isn't Brawl MK Fair.

Anyways, I don't fear the reaper that much. He is clearly a top tier, but I agree that he is going to be an inconsistent top tier threat. ZSS can always Boost BS you off the top with enough rage, she actually punishes cross slash with grabs, and she zones better. I don't particularly fear Cloud, I'd rather fight a Cloud than a needle camping shiek, at least I get to interact and not get unreactably punished for landing.

Since you are registered since 2015, I'm going to assume you didn't compete in Brawl or live Brawl.

Ok, MK was stupidly good. Range, fast, frame data and kill power and plenty of broken stuff. Ice Climbers were as well, a grab with nana not desynched or dead meant a stock.
But other characters were also stupidly overpowered. The power level of the whole game was way higher than in smash4.

Just as an example, Luigi was a low tier in Brawl. If brawl luigi got ported just like that to this game, we could argue he would be the best. Most characters had broken stuff and some were awfully bad. So comparing brawl MK to smash4 Cloud (or Sheik) directly is stupid. It's about the impact on the meta.

What I'm complaining about, is the fact that before the last 2 patches, while there were certainly top tiers and sheik was (and is) slightly problematic, most high/mid tiers were viable. They had that one matchup which was hindering their viability but you could get a second for that.
Nowadays most characters get **** on so hard by the dlcgods they just can't be played. While before we had like 15 viable characters and 30 semi viable, now we have kinda 10 viable characters and 10 more semi viable.
Those two characters IMO will kill diversity of characters in the game (and sheik, although less).

Obviously this is all my opinion and it might be wrong or maybe we get a patch that fixes those problems (unlikely) so we will never have to discover if they truly make the game worse.

 

[FullMoon]

I wouldn't say Hydro Pump won't be hitting Cloud, the hitbox lingers for quite a while (it's active from frame 19 to 47 essentially since it's 4 sets of hitboxes, so 28 frames total) and unlike Mario, Greninja can send it straight down in front of the ledge. If Cloud is trying to position himself so that he gets to the ledge at the apex of Climhazard, even if he's hugging the wall if Hydro Pump hits him he's gonna rocket up really fast and not auto-snap and leave himself vulnerable. Worst case scenario Hydro Pump might clip him him and send him away from the stage and into the void.

Though it might happen that while flying up Cloud might hit Greninja with Climhazard, but it's unlikely to fully connect since they would be going at different speeds. It can lead to some... crazy stuff happening.

 

[Greward]

I wouldn't say Hydro Pump won't be hitting Cloud, the hitbox lingers for quite a while (it's active from frame 19 to 47 essentially since it's 4 sets of hitboxes, so 28 frames total) and unlike Mario, Greninja can send it straight down in front of the ledge.

I was implying onstage, yeah you can hit it if offstage. Not sure what would happen though lol.

 

[NairWizard]

It's not enough to ask who does well vs. Cloud in a specific area of the game (edgeguarding). We should also ask who does well vs. Cloud, period.

To have an even matchup against Cloud at this point you basically need:

1) the ability to edgeguard him consistently, because otherwise he's going to outreward you no matter what character you play
2) either a neutral game as top-class as Cloud's (which is almost impossible due to Limit Cross Slash) or reward that's comparable to his even if you can't quite beat it (MK is the only one who qualifies). Anyone with both of these and #1 above would beat Cloud solidly (so... Sheik)

Larry, Zinoto, and Dabuz all listed Cloud as negative matchups for their characters, which is entirely believable and more or less in line with results. So that's Fox, Diddy, and Rosalina, down. Villager apparently gets demolished by Cloud, and Ness probably does poorly for similar reasons (their neutral games are just not consistent enough against a big sword). Sonic as we saw in m2k vs. 6wx gets manhandled by Cloud; Cloud excels at juggling/landing traps, and Sonic hates those (as well as disjoints). Bayonetta can edgeguard Cloud but I don't think this one will turn up in her favor as theorized previously, the disjoint is quite strong at stuffing a lot of what Bayo can do.

ZSS through Nairo proves to be a strong match against Cloud but I think this might be more a case of Nairo being Nairo than of ZSS being good vs. Cloud. Why do I say that? Because both of the Clouds at Shots Fired 2 gave him solid competition; m2k after adjusting to Nairo across two games performed extremely well and then SD'ed in the last match before losing (set score 3-2). We have a consistent record of Clouds doing well against ZSS players other than Nairo, and theorywise Cloud's mobility allows him to punish flip jump consistently, and he whiff-punishes ZSS' grab harder than anyone in the game. I'm willing to bet that this is a bad matchup for ZSS, and that only ZSS' insane meta developments are keeping her afloat in it, but for now listing it as even is probably correct/reflective of the meta.

Mewtwo has had a good showing against Cloud in the form of Mew^2 vs. m2k, but I have my doubts about the way m2k approached this matchup. Staying in Limit more often might have been the correct way to play it. I think if you take a results-based approach you could suggest that it's an even or better matchup given Mewtwo's offstage game, but then I see that Mewtwo just dies so early to Limit Cross Slash which already kills everyone too early anyway, and I think it's got to be really hard. Usually Mewtwo's weight doesn't matter because you just die a few percent earlier, who cares, the difference is one hit. But dying earlier to Cloud's Limit attacks is a really big deal because it means that he has to charge Limit potentially one or two fewer times during a match in order to win.

So Cloud... loses to Sheik, is questionably even with ~3 characters (MK, maybe Mewtwo, maybe ZSS... end list???), and beats everyone else. And note that we are talking mostly about top and high tiers here when we say "beats." Go further down and it's just a slaughter, not a 60:40. Most of the cast he just convincingly destroys. Lucario? Wario? Villager? Please. Laughable choices. Might as well be playing Ganondorf against Sheik at that rate.

At this point I strongly believe that as long as Cloud exists there's no point to playing anyone but Sheik, Bayonetta, Cloud, ZSS, and maybe MK if you want consistent results. I don't think Rosalina is a valid choice any more given that both MK and Cloud now counter her, ZSS and Sheik slightly beat her, and Bayonetta goes even against her, though I imagine that Dabuz will continue to do well because he's good. Same reason he did well with Olimar in Brawl despite Olimar's bad matchups against MK and ICs.

The only reason that I'm not up in arms over Cloud existing is because Sheik already exists and beats a lot of the cast anyway, and we've been living with her for a while. Plus, she does beat Cloud himself. So *shrug* More incentive to play Sheik, I suppose. I do see the concern, though, it's totally valid, the character is scary, consistent or not.

Bayonetta I just don't see being nearly as dominant, for various reasons.

 

[Fatmanonice]

It's just a weird situation because we're slowly getting a solid list of 5-7 characters that have no true counters: as the Three Queens, as inevitable top tiers, and getting more scary as time passes and still the promise of terrifying optimized play. Everyone below that kind of hits snags. are losing their edge and get checked by the strangest of characters and/or simply get outdone by the top tiers. Villager is a prime example of this. and even freakin' are fairly hard match ups. Even are kind of nail biters and yet he's still considered one of the better characters in the game. Ness and Mario are pretty much in the same boat. A bigger gap is definitely starting to develop between the top and high tiers.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah the edge guarding shindigs don't really matter. There's only two characters who could argue not losing to Cloud (although asides from Nairo's results, and me thinking things can play out kinda evenly, nearly all the other ZSS mains believe we lose to him) and they do have abilities to edge guard him.

The rest of the characters who can maybe edge guard him, lose everywhere else; generally significantly.

 

[C0rvus]

It's just a weird situation because we're slowly getting a solid list of 5-7 characters that have no true counters: as the Three Queens, as inevitable top tiers, and getting more scary as time passes and still the promise of terrifying optimized play. Everyone below that kind of hits snags. are losing their edge and get checked by the strangest of characters and/or simply get outdone by the top tiers. Villager is a prime example of this. and even freakin' are fairly hard match ups. Even are kind of nail biters and yet he's still considered one of the better characters in the game. Ness and Mario are pretty much in the same boat. A bigger gap is definitely starting to develop between the top and high tiers.

But Rosalina has 2 counters; both are arguably top tier as well (Cloud and MK). She also has random even matchups with like Mega Man, Mewtwo, and Falcon. She's definitely not a queen anymore.

 

[NairWizard]

Yeah the edge guarding shindigs don't really matter. There's only two characters who could argue not losing to Cloud (although asides from Nairo's results, and me thinking things can play out kinda evenly, nearly all the other ZSS mains believe we lose to him) and they do have abilities to edge guard him.

The rest of the characters who can maybe edge guard him, lose everywhere else; generally significantly.

If Sheik is this game's Brawl MK, then Cloud is its Ice Climbers, only without the ridiculous technical barrier.

ZSS would be like... Snake or something?

 

[Megamang]

Since you are registered since 2015, I'm going to assume you didn't compete in Brawl or live Brawl.

Ok, MK was stupidly good. Range, fast, frame data and kill power and plenty of broken stuff. Ice Climbers were as well, a grab with nana not desynched or dead meant a stock.
But other characters were also stupidly overpowered. The power level of the whole game was way higher than in smash4.

Just as an example, Luigi was a low tier in Brawl. If brawl luigi got ported just like that to this game, we could argue he would be the best. Most characters had broken stuff and some were awfully bad. So comparing brawl MK to smash4 Cloud (or Sheik) directly is stupid. It's about the impact on the meta.

What I'm complaining about, is the fact that before the last 2 patches, while there were certainly top tiers and sheik was (and is) slightly problematic, most high/mid tiers were viable. They had that one matchup which was hindering their viability but you could get a second for that.
Nowadays most characters get **** on so hard by the dlcgods they just can't be played. While before we had like 15 viable characters and 30 semi viable, now we have kinda 10 viable characters and 10 more semi viable.
Those two characters IMO will kill diversity of characters in the game (and sheik, although less).

Obviously this is all my opinion and it might be wrong or maybe we get a patch that fixes those problems (unlikely) so we will never have to discover if they truly make the game worse.

Actually, ive been here since melee. Just made a new account and ID since brawl made me take a hiatus after MK took over.

Its not about the power level, its about how much stronger he was than the cast. MK was amazingly better than everyone. I don't see this type of dominance in Sm4sh, not only due to the characters weakening while universal options were buffed, but due to the game's interactions themselves. Every character was given a meaningful poke (except the very worst...), and a decent set of tools. Look at kirby! He now has a toolkit, instead of a bairkit.


Perhaps I am a different situation, people where I play are mostly playing intensely to win. My matches are usually sonic, shiek, ZSS, Cloud... There are low tier matches, but those are for friendlies! So I never saw the magic of diversity here. For example, I think most people would play the character with all 51:49s even if he was Aids and the other character was 50:50s and was The Dali Llama. Idk.

Shiek killed the diversity that Ive seen, is what im saying, so I don't fear Cloud doing the same. Smash usually ultimately comes down to the top characters duking it out for progression of metagame, and smash 4's will be more interesting to me since they added more top tiers. That is all. I see your point, The DLC gods do slaughter most of the cast... its what it takes to get to top tier power level, unfortunately. I would have liked the general power level to be reduced even more, so that the top tiers were around CF/DK/Pit level. I think that would have been the most interesting, fair, and effective approach to making the most characters viable. But hey, apparently I was 'whining for nerfs instead of learning' as people, especially top players, liked to say. Oh well. Mid tiers are still more likely to pull out an upset than other smash games, in my opinion. Prince Ramin almost taking out m2k was really cool to watch.

 

[[BROF]]

Most people I know in my scene say that Sheik outframes most of the cast (AC frame 11 fair, I'm watching you), but Cloud probably both outranges, outframes, and overpowers most of the cast too.
For what it's worth, I can see the Cloud MU evolving towards what happens with Melee Falcon. You need to get him offstage as fast as possible, and even then it's hard. His effort/risk ratio is all sorts of skewed.
The good thing about him being a really popular pick is that people all around the cast are going to be pretty much forced to nitpick the MU to find ways to get him offstage without limit in the most efficient way possible. Sort of how like Fox might be #1 in melee, but he can get comboed to death or chaingrabbed by almost the entire the cast.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'd expect answers to all of this considering Melee's age and the study that went into it, but what about Smash 4? Can players of whatever character give a reason for every move in certain situations other than something like, "Use Falco's Dtilt to space"?

Probably not because they'll be too focus on how safe something is. Lucky for me, I can give you the usage for each of Bowser's moves.

 

[Shaya]

If Sheik is this game's Brawl MK, then Cloud is its Ice Climbers, only without the ridiculous technical barrier.

ZSS would be like... Snake or something?

ZSS is like Marth compared to them~
But you probably saw that one coming.

And I've also been making that comparison since I started playing her/the game.

"doesn't have real weaknesses, doesn't have any real losing match ups,
but god can things go really wrong for you"

And with a slight chance of great cheese in their up-b's and people not knowing how to deal with their nairs (/fair).

 

[Fatmanonice]

But Rosalina has 2 counters; both are arguably top tier as well (Cloud and MK). She also has random even matchups with like Mega Man, Mewtwo, and Falcon. She's definitely not a queen anymore.

Really? Guess I'm not on the up and up for Rosalina then. Good riddance... the character is about as fun to play against and watch as treating hemorrhoids with a wool sock anyways. Any key notes on the Cloud and MK perspectives?

Also, is it just me or does Megaman have a really weird niche in this game? He just seems like a random bad match up for a lot of characters. I myself have unusually good mileage with the character against and because leaf shield spam surprisingly shuts down a lot of their options.

 

[Pancracio17]

other than edgeguarding, what other cloud counterplay is there?

 

[Big-Cat]

other than edgeguarding, what other cloud counterplay is there?

I've learned that a jump-in Cloud is a sitting duck on block. It's one of the reasons why I find that vs.is either an even matchup, or very slightly in favor of one of the two. Bowser's punishment game via Showtime makes Cloud think twice about doing anything risky.

 

[Fatmanonice]

other than edgeguarding, what other cloud counterplay is there?

Baiting him to waste Limit Breaks? I know, easier said than done.

 

[[BROF]]

I've learned that a jump-in Cloud is a sitting duck on block. It's one of the reasons why I find that vs.is either an even matchup, or very slightly in favor of one of the two. Bowser's punishment game via Showtime makes Cloud think twice about doing anything risky.

How do you deal with landing? I play Bowser as much as I do Ike, and landing is hell for me against Cloud.
Bowser overall struggles with landing, but Cloud's uair is insane. Do you usually just retreat and give up the stage for a chance to get back at neutral?

 

[Big-Cat]

That's usually my preference. Sometimes, it's best to just give them the space to have less disadvantage.

 

[Shaya]

I've learned that a jump-in Cloud is a sitting duck on block. It's one of the reasons why I find that vs.is either an even matchup, or very slightly in favor of one of the two. Bowser's punishment game via Showtime makes Cloud think twice about doing anything risky.

I would be really doubtful of such an assertion from just wifi experiences.
Do you have tangible reasons to believe these things?

Bowser's fortress or grab are not some god's gift to dealing with well spaced sword attacks (ftilt/jab out of shield can be potent though). Cloud shouldn't be blindly jumping in either, stuff like retreating auto cancelled nair or slow fall nair just before landing shouldn't be jab/ftiltable.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Cloud doesn't really have an incentive to approach either because it just allows him to charge limit anyways if he stays put. That's part of the reason why the Villager vs Cloud match up is extremely frustrating because he can just run away even if you're throwing a billion projectiles at him.

 

[deepseadiva]

I truly believe that cloud and bayonetta will be overcentralizing the meta in short time. This is going to be kind off a rant but whatever.

I'm not going to say they're #1 and #2(tho I believe so), but the amount of characters they just invalidate is astonishing.

If you're not gonna say it, I'm gonna say it because my edits to the tier list are forward thinking in exactly that same way.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

$5.99 is the future the darkness is coming

 

[Djmarcus44]

My bad, he's the 13th worst character counting mii's. if mii's aren't included, he is the 10th worst. so it is half correct, based on the tier list.

What is that ONE thing exactly? i you referencing that he only has a ground game? but yeah, overall i feel he should be mid tier, 30 or 29th seems fair in my eyes. the biggest thing is that he suffers from stage counterpicks. but he has town and city, which is a good neutral stage for him, and Lylat is a starter stage now, and it is very hard if not impossible to circle camp him there. Battlefield is also good, if the character mac is playing against doesn't have a projectile (or isn't sonic.) with that in mind, he should rise a good chunk. he beats all the characters 10 spots above and below him to say the least.

Mii Gunner definitely beats Little Mac because Gunner wins the neutral in this matchup (Gunner can wall out Little Mac with shorthop fair and mix in flame pillar and charge blast to keep him away) and takes great advantage of Little Mac's poor recovery (There are some combos and follow ups that work on Little Mac in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). I have posted on the Little Mac matchup thread about this in greater detail, and the only Little Mac player that replied also agreed that Gunner beats Little Mac.

Shaya , Mii Gunner probably is the best at edgeguarding Cloud due to the fact that Gunner's flame pillar covers the ledge for at least 40 frames when spaced properly. Spamming flame pillar at the ledge is a serious threat to Cloud's recovery (I was able to kill a Cloud player around my skill level at 60% by throwing him off of the ledge and spamming flame pillar). Gunner can also cover every ledge option with a combination of flame pillar and up smash if the opponent rolls from the ledge. Charge blast or fsmash can also cover every ledge option when timed properly.

Also, Mii Gunner fulfills your requirements for going even with Cloud. Gunner beats Cloud in the neutral due to the safety and range of Gunner's fair (it is a transcendent projectile that outranges all of Cloud's moves except for blade beam). Gunner can also reflect blade beam if the opponent uses that move to keep Gunner out of the range of sh fair. In addition to the previous statements that I made about Gunner's ability to edgeguard Cloud, Gunner can also juggle Cloud pretty well since Gunner's up air outranges all of Cloud's landing options, and gundashing gives Gunner the mobility to cover Cloud's landing. Charge blast is also good for setting up a landing trap in this matchup. While Mii Gunner isn't that good at killing, the combination of decently fast killing options (frame 5 up tilt that kills around 135, Down tilt is frame 8 and kills around 130, and down smash is frame 9 and has good killing power for a smash attack) and good mixups that can kill (these follow ups are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). For these reasons, I think that Mii Gunner can at least go even if not beat Cloud.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If you're not gonna say it, I'm gonna say it because my edits to the tier list are forward thinking in exactly that same way.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

$5.99 is the future the darkness is coming

Oh man, Yoshi tho...

 

[ARGHETH]

Oh man, Yoshi tho...

I just noticed that...Yoshi top 10? Over MK and Pikachu? I mean, I realize most of the people in this thread don't exactly have the best opinion of Yoshi, but I think everyone agrees Yoshi isn't that good.
Also, Robin being 51st and Bowser 53rd is just lol.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I like Pac-Man and I feel he has plenty of untapped potential but I don't agree with putting him above R.O.B as long as the latter is just more effective.

As long as Pac doesn't have a bread and butter way set up a kill situation at any percent R.O.B will just keep Beep-Booping and have the efficient version of what Pac-Man tries to be.
Pepper the opponent while having stage control and create traps is what both do, then at 120% percent R.O.B just says ok time to kill, grabs the opponents and kills.

Pac tries trappy things until he kills.

Add in some of R.O.B's signature big aerial hitboxes and he just outclasses Pac-Man in his own game by sheer efficiency.

That said, Pac Man does have the tools to compete but we need a way to make them kill regularily as if he had a kill throw/combo and a rep to show it.
We have neither, so Pac just keeps peppering the opponents with Hydrants until our UAir kills.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

NairWizard

What results are there to back up Larry's/Zinoto's claim that Cloud beats Fox/Diddy? I will agree that Rosalina gets handled by Cloud pretty clearly but apart from individual top players' opinions there's nothing that suggests that Cloud beats Fox or Diddy. If Cloud actually *does* have the advantage against them it's probably only minimal and only because of offstage shenanigans. On stage both character can consistently deal with his neutral game head-on and their uairs are among the few that can legitimately threaten his dair.

 

[HoSmash4]

My main problem is the crazy amount of success Cloud/Bayonetta have gotten in such a short time. Ryu was hyped to be top 5 and Cloud/Bayonetta have better results in 20% of the time released. Heck better than every character outside top 10 who have been released since nov 14 Let's not think cloud/Bayonetta are brain dead. Honestly optimised cloud will so scary because of his damage output and his extreme safety on shield. Seriously the only time I feel it's possible even winning vs cloud as sheik is when he does unsafe moves on my shield. I can outframe his move with fair but his reward off a read in neutral is still much higher than mine. Edge guarding cloud is one the things only a few characters like sheik can do to swing the MU in her favour.

 

[NairWizard]

NairWizard

What results are there to back up Larry's/Zinoto's claim that Cloud beats Fox/Diddy? I will agree that Rosalina gets handled by Cloud pretty clearly but apart from individual top players' opinions there's nothing that suggests that Cloud beats Fox or Diddy. If Cloud actually *does* have the advantage against them it's probably only minimal and only because of offstage shenanigans. On stage both character can consistently deal with his neutral game head-on and their uairs are among the few that can legitimately threaten his dair.

For Diddy, m2k beating basically every good Diddy player he runs into. Here's mew2king taking ZeRo to game 5, including 2 decisive victories over ZeRo's Diddy (game 1, m2k didn't seem to know what to do, but once he figured it out things swung in his favor). ZeRo switched to Sheik in the last game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8a-M-OHENA

Here's m2k bopping MVD in two different sets:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o7i0osKLRE (3-1 m2k)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBJuGjBnlig (3-1 m2k again)

For Fox, I don't have a lot of results to work with here, but Nicko did beat Larry 2-1 at 2GGT: The False Awakens. Larry may not have known the matchup so well, though, from what I remember watching the set, but some things definitely looked tough for Fox.


These characters usually rely on beating other characters in neutral to compete. Fox also has his absurd punish game. But Cloud just plays well in neutral with them, outwards them, and also gimps them on top of that (harder than they can gimp him). It doesn't sound pretty to me, theoretically, just looking at the sets that we do have makes it tough to imagine either MU being even.

Agreeing that it's probably not worse than -1.