Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

I think Cloud is better than Bayonetta. Bayonetta's weaknesses, whilst less obvious than Cloud's "bad" recovery, are probably more exploitable.

She is forced to approach any character with a decent projectile who's short enough for Bullet Climax to miss. Her frame data does give her issues against certain CQC monsters. Without Witch Time, her kill potential really isn't that good; Fthrow is one of the worst stock caps in the game if you DI correctly, Bair isn't the easiest thing in the world to land, and we can improve our (S)DI against her long combo kill conversions. She can struggle to kill characters with strong grab/throw games.

Don't get me wrong, Bayo is a definite top 10 and likely top 5, but I don't see her as better than Cloud. Cloud ultimately placed better at Shots Fired as well.

Bayo probably loses to and potentially . I'm not enamored with her MUs either.

Cloud loses to... ? Maybe?

A top 3 of in some order is where we're heading IMO.

If you're not gonna say it, I'm gonna say it because my edits to the tier list are forward thinking in exactly that same way.

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$5.99 is the future the darkness is coming

I get that this is forward thinking but Yoshi is definitely too high. I just cannot see how 7th can be justified with no results and shaky theory. Luigi is a bit too high as well. Can we get some explanations?

Kirby is also weirdly high, the Pits and Toon Link are weirdly low, and what Mii Brawler set are you using?

Other than that, there are some strange placements, but you've made a couple of good calls.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm pretty sure deepseadiva's tier list was a joke.....

 

[Thinkaman]

The DLC rage is equal parts hilarious and cringe-inducing.

Fun fact: I was just visited by a version of myself from an alternate timeline in which Lucario was cut from Brawl but ended up as Smash 4 DLC somehow. He said the salt posted in his version of CCI was so great that President Richardson declared Smash a threat to public health and outlawed it.

(I know, I was pretty surprised too. Bill Richardson?)

 

[bc1910]

The DLC rage is equal parts hilarious and cringe-inducing.

Fun fact: I was just visited by a version of myself from an alternate timeline in which Lucario was cut from Brawl but ended up as Smash 4 DLC somehow. He said the salt posted in his version of CCI was so great that President Richardson declared Smash a threat to public health and outlawed it.

(I know, I was pretty surprised too. Bill Richardson?)

What's funny is that I have been having these exact same thoughts.

So many characters in this game would cause outrage if they were released now as DLC. Some of the DLC characters themselves (notably Ryu, and probably Corrin) would never have been hyped so much if they were included in the vanilla game.

Lucario would cause pandemonium if released as DLC, as would ZSS. If for some reason Bowser was held back for DLC he'd probably cause the "top tier" chaos he did at release, purely because he's so much better than he's ever been (not because he's actually good).

I think a DLC Sheik's trajectory would be similar to Cloud's. We'd dismiss her at first ("her Fair does like 4 damage now, and her kill power is ass"), then realise how good her unique gimmicks are ("dude I think BF and Needles are too good actually") and allow her to settle back to top 3 in the game ("who does Sheik actually lose to?").

 

[Wintermelon43]

What's funny is that I have been having these exact same thoughts.

So many characters in this game would cause outrage if they were released now as DLC. Some of the DLC characters themselves (notably Ryu, and probably Corrin) would never have been hyped so much if they were included in the vanilla game.

Lucario would cause pandemonium if released as DLC, as would ZSS. If for some reason Bowser was held back for DLC he'd probably cause the "top tier" chaos he did at release, purely because he's so much better than he's ever been (not because he's actually good).

I think a DLC Sheik's trajectory would be similar to Cloud's. We'd dismiss her at first ("her Fair does like 4 damage now, and her kill power is ***"), then realise how good her unique gimmicks are ("dude I think BF and Needles are too good actually") and allow her to settle back to top 3 in the game ("who does Sheik actually lose to?").

Rosalina and Meta Knight would have a ton of problems too.

Also, if Bowser was held back as DLC, nobody would buy this game, since they'd think Sakurai is alcoholic

 

[Rizen]

No DLC characters are OP, ban them! (secretly invests in blood pressure medication companies, once the salt levels hit critical Ka-Ching $$$ !)

 

[Chuva]

Opinion here: there is too much focus solely on character counterpick while completely ignoring the stages in which said characters will interplay, which is arguably the biggest differential of this game/series from other fighting games.

Would you bring Cloud to Battlefield, T&C, Smashville or Dream Land, where the distant platform(s) with good height gives him all the vertical repositioning, safe aerial pressure and platform-camping limit charge he wants?

Is FD the best choice, where limit charging is a bit more honest and the lack of platforms forces him to be more linear with his aerial spacing? Wouldn't it be the go-to choice for characters with strong projectile games (Toon Link, Villager) since they can focus on horizontal pressure and Cloud has less breathing room for his limit charge? However, wouldn't the lack of platforms makes it even easier for him to deal with juggle-vulnerable characters because of the unavailability of mixing up landings via platforms?

Then there is Lylat, where the platforms are short in height and close to each other. If you character particularly struggles with Cloud's Dair pressure, wouldn't those platforms be useful? However, said platform also improves Cloud's aerial walling if you're above him. How much does your character benefit from offstage interactions against Cloud when taking in consideration the stage tilting?

I feel there is a lot to explore in debating stage options but I rarely see a serious matchup discussion that involves potential stage benefits other than the likes of the ever obvious "lol ban FD against Mac/never take Rosa to Halberd". I've lost some sets mostly because of bad stage counterpicking and ever since it strikes me as a knowledge that should be more and more solidified in the competitive meta game.

Will the difference between picking FD or Battlefield suddenly make Ganondorf's miserable Rosalina matchup even? Definitely not, but if you're in a competitive environment, I assume you'd want to take any advantage you can, as small and overly meticulous as it seems.

 

[NairWizard]

The DLC rage is equal parts hilarious and cringe-inducing.

Fun fact: I was just visited by a version of myself from an alternate timeline in which Lucario was cut from Brawl but ended up as Smash 4 DLC somehow. He said the salt posted in his version of CCI was so great that President Richardson declared Smash a threat to public health and outlawed it.

(I know, I was pretty surprised too. Bill Richardson?)

The difference is that Cloud really looks like he is that good.

Lucario's design may be salt-inducing, but he doesn't have what it takes to be a top 3 character while competing with Sheik for highest number of one-sided matchups, like Cloud does. Saying that Cloud is destroying the game would be hyperbole (the game's balance is better than Brawl's or Melee's and it'll always be that way without significant changes), but it's clear to me at this point that his introduction was a step back in terms of castwide matchup balance.

Bayonetta, though, agreed, that's just 100% salt over Witch Time and I actually think the character is rather tame (relative to the top tiers).

And as a former resident of New Mexico, I gotta say, Bill Richardson would have my vote.

 

[BunbUn129]

Rosalina and Meta Knight would have a ton of problems too.

Also, if Bowser was held back as DLC, nobody would buy this game, since they'd think Sakurai is alcoholic

Nah, Meta Knight would've gone down the same path as Mewtwo: he would be regarded as ****, before getting some buffs, and then achieving tournament success as a result. I really don't think MK would've been a problem as DLC considering he had Fox's speed, Sheik's frame data, Marth's range, and Jigglypuff's recovery on steroids. Sakurai would've buried him with nerfs the same way he did in reality.

Anyway, the fact that DLC characters are DLC characters will lead to them gaining more attention than many characters in the base game, which in turn would result in them getting stronger results than them despite having less time to do so, leading to the--sometimes false and exaggerated-- perception that they're unbalanced. You wouldn't have heard nearly as much salt about Cloud and Bayo had they been in the vanilla version.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

For Diddy, m2k beating basically every good Diddy player he runs into. Here's mew2king taking ZeRo to game 5, including 2 decisive victories over ZeRo's Diddy (game 1, m2k didn't seem to know what to do, but once he figured it out things swung in his favor). ZeRo switched to Sheik in the last game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8a-M-OHENA

When I watch this set I see two close wins by M2K and two decisive ones by Zero. I can see a few things in this video that possibly makes this matchup in Cloud's advantage but I think matchup inexperience is also a factor [ie Zero counterpicking Cloud to Lylat which I think is a pretty big mistake]. I'd say it's still a bit early to make a call but I wouldn't be surprised if results showed us that the matchup is about +1 for Cloud. Results from Zinoto vs Cloud and Japan are something to look out for here, I think it's only a matter of time until we see how things turn out. I can settle with +1 for Cloud until then I guess.

Fox vs Cloud is something I can comment on with *some* [read: little, and possibly not very relevant] personal experience. I also lost my first encounter to a Cloud main but solidly won a second set once I've figured out the spacing/timing to challenge Cloud's dair with my uair. Fox really needs those juggles though and if he can't get them things are definitely going to be rough. Also, Nicko is a very good and underrated player, he's actually a bit like Tweek in that he's always been good but held back by a sub-par character. Now that he's picked up a very good one I think he'll do very well.

 

[Rizen]

I can see Bayo going one of two ways. People either learn to escape her combos and she drops to a lower high tier rank or people perfect her combos and she sticks to top 5ish. TBH I don't know much about how the DLC meta is developing.

I think Cloud is good but more gimp-able than people realize. He's too good not to be a high tier though.

 

[Routa]

...and what Mii Brawler set are you using?

Judging by other Mii placing I would bet Guest XXXX.

 

[BunbUn129]

I can see Bayo going one of two ways. People either learn to escape her combos and she drops to a lower high tier rank or people perfect her combos and she sticks to top 5ish. TBH I don't know much about how the DLC meta is developing.

I think Cloud is good but more gimp-able than people realize. He's too good not to be a high tier though.

The problem isn't gimping Cloud, the problem is actually winning in neutral, gaining the advantage, and forcing an edge-guard. That's all easier said than done. With Sheik-esque frame data and mobility, attacks whose hitboxes cover half the screen, moves that deal high damage and shield-stun (I'm looking at you, fair), a down aerial that spits in the face of pressure, and most of all, a chargeable KO punch with four different variations, gaining the advantage on Cloud is no easy task. LB means he never really has to commit to anything, unless he's facing needle-camping from Sheik.

So Cloud has a great neutral and advantage state, and his disadvantage is decent. Sure, his recovery is ****, but taking into account everything I just said, his recovery is only a detriment against a) characters who can go toe-to-toe in neutral (eg ), b) characters who have deadly punishes (eg ), c) characters with strong disadvantages (eg), d) , because is , and has all that ****.

That said, these are Cloud's MU's from my perspective :

-1: same reasons as for why Sheik wins every other MU.
50-50: , Cloud gets punished hard like other characters, and these two are tailored to edge-guard him, and they have the tools to avoid or minimize damage taken from uair juggles thanks to their strong disadvantages. However, Cloud will often win in neutral, making these even.

+1: this is where many might disagree. For Diddy, he goes more or less even in neutral, but he has to win neutral so many times to win the match. Meanwhile, Cloud outrewards him in a single opening. For ZSS, she loses in neutral like MK and Bayo, but ZSS's lack of a rising aerial and laggy grab is a big issue against Cloud's already safe shield pressure. ZSS doesn't have any aerial with extended duration, meaning it is difficult to challenge Cloud's recovery, aside from Flip Jump, but a good Cloud player won't have any difficulty avoiding that. For Pikachu, Cloud's range shuts him down, and a lack of KOing ability onstage is almost a death sentence here. However, Pikachu has the tools to edge-guard Cloud pretty well, and QA can bother Cloud in neutral.

+2:Cloud's disjoint makes quick work of Luma, and Rosa's size and physics leave her at the mercy of uair juggles. Also throw in the fact that she dies early. It might not be +2, but it's definitely a bad MU for Rosa.

Aside from those, most of Cloud's MU's range from advantageous to miserably one sided. I should probably include somewhere up there, but I really don't know that much to say for sure. At worst for Cloud these are even.

 

[Luco]

Anyway, the fact that DLC characters are DLC characters will lead to them gaining more attention than many characters in the base game, which in turn would result in them getting stronger results than them despite having less time to do so, leading to the--sometimes false and exaggerated-- perception that they're unbalanced. You wouldn't have heard nearly as much salt about Cloud and Bayo had they been in the vanilla version.

I dunno man, I remember back in the old threads where people used to whine for days about Sheik's over-centralising "goodness" and even when a bunch of players were nearly ready to give up on the game with pre-patch Diddy around.

I actually wonder whether they would have affected severely our ideas of the game's overall balance at that point; and thus pushed more people away from sm4sh as opposed to what we have now where people are still trying to justify that the game is 'actually so balanced oh my god bwaaaaah'.

Once again, imagine pre-patch Diddy, Sheik, Rosa running around plus Bayo, Cloud, even Ryu at that point, with MK later to join the fray. So many people would have been like "nup." The numerical stats of smash 4 might be toned down from Brawl, but the balance gap is slowly shifting wider in that direction because of how many gosh darn good characters there are to beat now, and unlike Diddy who used to kill you at 80% and we called it broken, many of these characters are killing you at 30-60% OR LESS.

As a Ness/Lucas main, I can say it's never felt more unfair to have a reliable kill option kill at 110% while these characters are running around.

 

[Rizen]

With Sheik-esque frame data and mobility, attacks whose hitboxes cover half the screen, moves that deal high damage and shield-stun (I'm looking at you, fair),

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, his frame data still isn't on Sheik's level lol. But I generally agree, Cloud's a high tier no doubt about it. Cloud's initial grab game being sub-par brings him down but paired with his dash speed and limit charging it's not as significant as it could have been.
I guess my overall view is Cloud and Bayo are obvious high tiers but I'm not sure where within to place them. There is a case for them as top 5 as people have said but that seems like jumping the gun. People could develop better spacing and strategies to exploit them.

 

[BunbUn129]

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, his frame data still isn't on Sheik's level lol. But I generally agree, Cloud's a high tier no doubt about it. Cloud's initial grab game being sub-par brings him down but paired with his dash speed and limit charging it's not as significant as it could have been.
I guess my overall view is Cloud and Bayo are obvious high tiers but I'm not sure where within to place them. There is a case for them as top 5 as people have said but that seems like jumping the gun. People could develop better spacing and strategies to exploit them.

The thing is with Cloud, he does have actual weaknesses (stop comparing him to Brawl MK, please), but they only matter against the characters who can exploit them (ie the ones I mentioned in my previous post). On the other hand, Bayonetta's average neutral game is something that's much easier to take advantage of, and she has amazing early KO potential, but has some difficulty killing at higher percents, whereas Cloud has the constant threat of killing you.

I dunno man, I remember back in the old threads where people used to whine for days about Sheik's over-centralising "goodness" and even when a bunch of players were nearly ready to give up on the game with pre-patch Diddy around.

I actually wonder whether they would have affected severely our ideas of the game's overall balance at that point; and thus pushed more people away from sm4sh as opposed to what we have now where people are still trying to justify that the game is 'actually so balanced oh my god bwaaaaah'.

Once again, imagine pre-patch Diddy, Sheik, Rosa running around plus Bayo, Cloud, even Ryu at that point, with MK later to join the fray. So many people would have been like "nup." The numerical stats of smash 4 might be toned down from Brawl, but the balance gap is slowly shifting wider in that direction because of how many gosh darn good characters there are to beat now, and unlike Diddy who used to kill you at 80% and we called it broken, many of these characters are killing you at 30-60% OR LESS.

As a Ness/Lucas main, I can say it's never felt more unfair to have a reliable kill option kill at 110% while these characters are running around.

That makes me think about the nerf to Bowser's up throw. One of Bowser's issues was he couldn't consistently punish and KO, and up throw up air solved this. I don't understand the rationale behind nerfing that, but leaving MK, Ryu, ZSS, and Cloud untouched (the ZSS nerfs barely mean anything). I don't mean to say I want them to be nerfed (I don't agree with nerfs unless it's something like Hoo Hah or pre-patch Luigi's down throw), but I really don't agree with the Bowser nerf.

 

[Nobie]

I think the DLC characters are not quite so clear cut when we have disagreements as to whether Bayonetta is the character who is so amazing that her faults are negligible, or if it's Cloud who fits that description. If there's contention in that realm, I think it means we have a lot more to learn.

The reason I brought up the whole "Bayo make top tiers mortal" thing is because I've seen so many players try to use their "get out of jail free" cards against Bayo and suffer for it. Again, the idea is that a lot of top characters are used to having some super safe, super reliable option that they generally throw out with the confidence that it's going to work out pretty well. Case in point, watching Ranai fight 9B, at one point Ranai is on the ledge and hops up with a nair. Villager's nair is amazing, and it's usually a move that can get Villager out of nearly any jam, but Bayo has Witch Time and it completely changes the complexion of the move as a result. This is where the whole "don't just press buttons" discussion came from.

Similarly, people complain about Bayo's dodges because of Bat Within, but if you look at the data a bad air dodge means she's vulnerable for 9 frame. It's like the game is BEGGING you to read her dodges.

Cloud, I'm not so sure about what I'm about to say, but I feel like players are still not accustomed to knowing how and when to challenge Cloud's stuff. For example, we talk about how Cloud's Limit Cross Slash is amazing (and it is), and that its recovery is good (21 frames), but that is plenty of time for someone to prepare a punish ESPECIALLY because the animation for the entire attack takes so long. And yet we're still seeing players get there a step too late, letting Cloud go free. This is the sort of thing that only improves over time as people understand better the limits (no pun intended) of Cloud's attacks.

EDIT: Bowser's Up Throw nerf was, I think, simply because it became too much of a go-to option. It worked at pretty much every practical percent. At least with the elevator combos like ZSS, Bayo, MK, there are ranges where they start to lose effectiveness or have to be utilized differently.

Patches aren't always about making sure the characters are balanced. If Ganondorf suddenly got an infinite tomorrow off of a jab, they would most certainly put serious consideration into patching it out.

 

[Greward]

-1: same reasons as for why Sheik wins every other MU. Pikachu bothers him in neutral, and Pika's lackluster KOing ability onstage is remedied by the fact that he can destroy Cloud offstage. This is possibly the only high tier MU where PIkachu has a clear advantage.

Cloud bodies pikachu super hard, he gets outbuttoned too hard to make anything happen.

The DLC rage is equal parts hilarious and cringe-inducing.

Fun fact: I was just visited by a version of myself from an alternate timeline in which Lucario was cut from Brawl but ended up as Smash 4 DLC somehow. He said the salt posted in his version of CCI was so great that President Richardson declared Smash a threat to public health and outlawed it.

(I know, I was pretty surprised too. Bill Richardson?)

If cloud wasn't dlc, nothing would change.
The possibility of a character being too good is real, you can't deny that there's a possibility for it to happen. We might be right, we might be wrong, but trying to just give off as rage or salt is not the way to go. There's at least results to make us think twice about Cloud and not Lucario (altho I believe lucario is the most underrated character in this game, along mew2).
And just to remember, cloud is 3 months old. There's still a long way before cloud is optimized.

I remember back in Brawl that if you complained about MK being too strong you were just a whiny kid who couldn't adapt. Then overall opinion changed and we tried to ban him, but it was too late because half the community was already maining him. The scene kinda split and Brawl started to die.
The two DLCgods (and sheik) look like they're going to have a similar effect.

Just imagine a game without cloud / sheik (and arguably bayonetta but for a lot of people it's too early to tell). Would it have a healthier meta than the one we have nowadays?
While ZSS and Rosalina are top tier characters, they do have checks and don't body other characters as hard. There's nothing wrong with being top tier, all games have top tiers.
However, overcentralizing the meta is bad. ZSS and Rosalina don't do that. Probably because they're not god tier.


ps: Brawl MK also had a weakness, he was light
ps2: on stages vs cloud, your best bet is going to FD, but he will ban it. The other stages have enough platforms for Cloud to platform camp.

 

[BunbUn129]

ps: Brawl MK also had a weakness, he was light

Yeah, but that didn't mean anything cause ya couldn't hit him.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah, but that didn't mean anything cause ya couldn't hit him.

Also because he could momentum cancel, basically not even making him as light as advertised.

If Cloud is comparable to any past top tier, it's . You could almost make a shine/limit cross slash analogy.

 

[wpwood]

- Back air to cover high. Up Smash to cover below on the ledge (and a bit high too, obviously). Can also neutral-b to chip damage and may bait an air dodge (hint: he shouldn't really air dodge this at all, 9% or maybe now being in a position where you need to use your jump awkwardly: you decide). Unfortunately though, not really covering it at all at the same time or being a guaranteed check mate. Warp's slow start up and no other way to challenge Cloud directly off stage other than with bair is problematic. Like Pit though, can attempt nair trades.

SHAME.

By nair trades you mean how nair (and I think all multi-hit moves) can semi spike when she is hit out of it or if 1 or 2 hits connect? Challenging up b with nair when cloud goes low is a good way to kill him and works on other characters that have active hit box on their up b. I also think you can mention counter in some situations. Since up b doesn't snap the ledge the cloud has to space up b right so a hit box won't come out and if he goes too low run off nair or sh on stage dair will work. I also think counter can beat out a cloud recovering high with the second hit of climhazard, but I haven't had the chance to try that out in an actual match. I do know counter works coming below the ledge though. I don't think up smash is as good since the hit box will usually hit her before up smash comes out, but it can be a way to bait the cloud into using up b so the hit box comes out so counter will work.

What do you mean by she can't challenge cloud offstage? I'm just wondering, and not saying you're right or wrong.

 

[deepseadiva]

One thing I do want to point out before "Haha DLC rage, players are so silly and salty!!!" clouds all judgement is the unique power of promotion.

I'm always hyper aware of marketing and if there's one strength the DLC characters share its their advanced popularity compared to the rest of the cast; particularly the third party DLC. Not only are they designed as canned-top-tiers to be even better advertisements for their respective companies, but they're advertised "heavily" (compared to the rest of the cast), and set aside and othered on the golden shelf that is $5.99 on the Wii U store.

Not to say a popular character is automatically a good one; but a crowd finds the abusable traits in a character four times as quickly. Rather than the traditional route, which is to wait around around until a superstar like Sol or iStudying manifests.

And with 50 characters, most of which are pretty dang alright, promotion is a major advantage. I lump Cloud and Bayonetta together because they share that advantage, but I cut the comparison there and I do stand by Bayo as the future #1.

The DLC rage is equal parts hilarious and cringe-inducing.

Fun fact: I was just visited by a version of myself from an alternate timeline in which Lucario was cut from Brawl but ended up as Smash 4 DLC somehow. He said the salt posted in his version of CCI was so great that President Richardson declared Smash a threat to public health and outlawed it.

(I know, I was pretty surprised too. Bill Richardson?)

It's funny you mention Lucario since I feel that character was always just waiting on some breakout players. We had Steam here in Colorado, so I saw the light. I wouldn't underestimate the promotional effects of DLC.

 

[Greward]

Also because he could momentum cancel, basically not even making him as light as advertised.

If Cloud is comparable to any past top tier, it's . You could almost make a shine/limit cross slash analogy.

He definitely died earlier than most from vertical killing options. On horizontal ones you are right, momentum cancel made him durable as a midweight.
I'm not sure about comparing cloud to other top tier characters, I'd go for melee falco, since he ****s you onstage and is awful recovering. Although Cloud has way better recovery game than melee falco.

 

[BunbUn129]

Cloud bodies pikachu super hard, he gets outbuttoned too hard to make anything happen.




If cloud wasn't dlc, nothing would change.
The possibility of a character being too good is real, you can't deny that there's a possibility for it to happen. We might be right, we might be wrong, but trying to just give off as rage or salt is not the way to go. There's at least results to make us think twice about Cloud and not Lucario (altho I believe lucario is the most underrated character in this game, along mew2).
And just to remember, cloud is 3 months old. There's still a long way before cloud is optimized.

I remember back in Brawl that if you complained about MK being too strong you were just a whiny kid who couldn't adapt. Then overall opinion changed and we tried to ban him, but it was too late because half the community was already maining him. The scene kinda split and Brawl started to die.
The two DLCgods (and sheik) look like they're going to have a similar effect.

Just imagine a game without cloud / sheik (and arguably bayonetta but for a lot of people it's too early to tell). Would it have a healthier meta than the one we have nowadays?
While ZSS and Rosalina are top tier characters, they do have checks and don't body other characters as hard. There's nothing wrong with being top tier, all games have top tiers.
However, overcentralizing the meta is bad. ZSS and Rosalina don't do that. Probably because they're not god tier.


ps: Brawl MK also had a weakness, he was light
ps2: on stages vs cloud, your best bet is going to FD, but he will ban it. The other stages have enough platforms for Cloud to platform camp.

I really don't think you can draw parallels between Smash 4 top tiers and Brawl Meta Knight. They aren't nearly as centralizing as he was.

I mean, look at Melee. It's very rare to see anyone below top 5 on the tier list in top 8 at majors, but has the game died? It was the same thing in Brawl, and now the same thing is happening in Smash 4. Brawl Meta Knight was a special case of a character who completely invalidated anyone lower than the top 10. Smash 4 Sheik doesn't come close to that, and neither does Cloud, ZSS, Bayo, MK, etc. The meta would not be healthier, because there are always going to be a few characters ahead of the pack, which is why I firmly believe it won't die off in the manner Brawl did.

Also, one of the reasons Smash 4 has better balance than Melee and Brawl is not because of the characters themselves, it's more to do with the removal of chain-grabbing and edge-hogging. If you brought edge-hogging back to Smash 4, characters like Little Mac and Ganon would be completely invalidated. If you brought back chain-grabbing, Fox would not be able to compete at the top level at all, because Sheik would probably be able to chain-grab him with her down throw (this sounds vaguely familiar). The fact that the game forces more interaction between you and your opponent is what prevents characters like Sheik from consuming the meta game.

 

[Tri Knight]

I was thinking to myself "I've stated this a few times as a rough estimate, I should look more into it"

So let's start with some ground rules then of what constitutes "things cloud can't just laugh at trying to get through".
A Cloud recovering low is in a lot more danger than a Cloud recovering high, many a character can attempt to punish him ledge snapping. However most characters still don't really have a move they can reliably use due to the hitbox sizes of climhazzard. They're going to get hit before they can hit Cloud.
But one only needs to trade. Or, power shield climhazard and then do a fast punish (e.g. Fox down smash) and likely find a stock. Cloud can avoid this too however.

In my opinion, once Cloud is within a certain proximity to the ledge, the opportunity is already over for nearly every character. It's relying on a mess up to end him. A Mario getting fludd to cape on Cloud, at least from my perspective, is usually Cloud ****ing up.

Okay so blurb aside, traits I think help
1. A move with enough disjoint as to trade with Cloud's Up-B vertically/horizontally (as honestly, there aren't many moves which are more disjointed as to allow you to beat it).
2. A transcended, multi hitting or fast horizontal frame trapping projectile; as Cloud's Climhazard has a constant tangible hitbox on ascension which will lol through a diddy banana drop or most Peach turnips.
3. A multi hit special which will clank with Cloud's up-b and will continue the animation for the character - part 1 still partially applies. I haven't seen this in practice but I read from somewhere here once something about Luigi Tornado.
4. An invincible attack.

Now to repeat again, Cloud recovering high is a lot safer than recovering low. Forcing a jump out of Cloud is nearly impossible for most of the cast, hence if you don't have a way to do so [chances are you do not] you don't reliably pressure Cloud off stage. If you don't reliably pressure Cloud off stage, you aren't going to force him low where a subset of the aforementioned characters can reliably capitalize.

So with those in mind

- Witch Time, Down Air and Down Smash can end him low. But she is otherwise risking A LOT to try to cover him high. Neutral B shooting is a commitment and Cloud may be forced to recover low from it but if you're shooting you probably aren't going to be able to do something to stop Climhazard. I can see her tuning the off-stage game more in the future, but even with implementation of drop kick and nair interceptions Cloud still has significantly more priority to kill her for trying. M2K disemboweled 9B. Non-invincible legs should not apply.

- Thank goodness for having one of the most broken moves in the game in Side-B (if she didn't have it, I wouldn't bother listing her otherwise). This does require her to be higher than Cloud in position still to exert the required pressure. Can gambit with back air if he's recovering too high but cannot afford to try to do so at around stage height or below (unfortunately). Down Air is telegraphed hard and shouldn't be a common factor, countering climhazard for the same reason shouldn't be a common factor (hint: Cloud grabs the ledge with up-b backwards~). If Cloud ever gets near to the ledge though while maintaining his double jump, he's just has to worry about side-b (so looking at whether she's in the air or not). I'm not sure where the refinement of her off stage game is going to go; she has several feasible tools at least.

- Regular Pit more so, he can force something to happen with arrows and can try his luck at a nair trade or slicing through him at the right horizontal height with fair. Down-B is very strong against him attempting to recover high (climhazard up and down into a ledge snap being almost untouchable for everyone else).
Honorable mention to for being a lot more common a character and for ruining all the Clouds we're seeing on local streams since his release! (Definitely has a subset of near definite tools if Cloud is in a truly bad spot).

- "My forward air is actually big enough to challenge you". Cloud: "Okay :<"
"I also have disjoints that could feasibly be trading with you from on stage even covering backwards recovering and other little shindigs".
Cloud: "Wow are you like, a broken character or something?"
"No, not while Corrin is better than me at nearly everything else... BUT I HAVE A NICHE HERE; THANKS".
Corrin: "Why doesn't my forward air also do 13%, and only against Cloud, send horizontally? Thanks Sakurai, this on top of not having guaranteed follow ups from grabs which would allow side-b set ups that kill sub 100% means we're destined to be crap; why couldn't I cost $1 more!?!?!

- I can jump enough times to stall in an optimal position as such that I can attempt to trade with you on back air.
- I'm actually designed to end you; especially if I bucket three blade beams (unlikely, but then it really should be 100-0 situation). Oh but between back air trading and up-b's insane priority/invincibility, Cloud has to be extremely careful. Legitimately the only character who I think can jump off stage and yolo towards Cloud.
- Certain fruits; apple, bell. There's various potential throughout the kit that I would like to see played out.
- Back air to cover high. Up Smash to cover below on the ledge (and a bit high too, obviously). Can also neutral-b to chip damage and may bait an air dodge (hint: he shouldn't really air dodge this at all, 9% or maybe now being in a position where you need to use your jump awkwardly: you decide). Unfortunately though, not really covering it at all at the same time or being a guaranteed check mate. Warp's slow start up and no other way to challenge Cloud directly off stage other than with bair is problematic. Like Pit though, can attempt nair trades.
- I can fall towards you with a back air. Thunder to cover your pathing. Thunder Jolt may do something. I can get back to the stage if those fail faster than you.
- lasers, gyro, down air/nair trading; a disgusting back air. Difficult but he has all the tools necessary.
- Down Air? Down air. Luma things? Luma things.
- Needles win. Bouncing Fish wins. Vanish wins. Can dare to challenge off stage with forward air. Win Win Win
- Can attempt so many things to get in his way without overt risk. Climhazard will clank out spring ... sometimes? Forward Smash is somehow the best on stage 2 framer in the game for some reason?
Is able to fall into him with aerials and produce trades that will see the end of him.
I think it's mostly because of Sonic being able to get into optimal positions from securing an off-stage hit better than everyone else, more so than his kit having all the tools necessary. Either way, I've seen him achieve anti-Cloud things a lot.
- Fair, Bair, disjointed trading down airs, forward smash, nair chains to death.
Zair, and flip jump kick being bigger than him.. Thank goodness.
- mild hindsight: shuriken air stalls and hydro pump could be problematic.

Some are more dubious than others.
I would say the characters who are frequently always forcing respect in recovering are
(because everyone is freaking out against her all the time anyway, but not necessarily for a good reason).


And the only characters I've consistently see do anything to him at competent level of play are


I guess Clouds are too busy not losing at all or it not mattering because of limit side-b to actually see the other characters gimp him at tournaments.
SHAME.

Another one that can really ruin Cloud's recovery is Link. His edgeguarding capabilities are probably some of the best in the game. He's got Nair for low recoveries - which even a sour hit can kill - and can actually reverse Nair Cloud for a stage spike. B-air is decent in that regard as well but the second hit can be whiffed. Also F-tilt reaches just underneath the ledge, and for a character that can't snap during Up-B, that's very scary. He can also set up bombs at the ledge to cover a mistake early Climhazzard as well to potentially set-up for a kill.

But there are many characters like that. I think with good timing and a little more bravery most of the characters can gimp Cloud. The one thing Cloud CAN do off stage is stall with a neutral or side-B to mix up the recovery.

 

[Greward]

I'd assume a viable character is one who can make top8 as solo, so:

Ok, so melee has this amount of viable and semi-viable characters:

fox
falco
marth
sheik
samus?
jigglypuff

those five have the best matchups against fox as far as I know, who's the clear best in the game, so I'd assume they're the 5 best (samus probably isn't but whatever)

peach
ice climbers
pikachu
yoshi
falcon
marios / ganondorf?

those would be the semi viable characters.
other characters are usually negligible (although they can have their niche like young link against puff).
In a game with 20 something characters, it's not so bad.

Let's take a look at brawl:

MK
IC
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Falco
Zero Suit Samus
Snake
Marth
Pikachu

Those were the top tiers characters (give or take), and while most lost to MK the matchups usually weren't soo bad. 4-6~~35-65 at worst.

King DDD
Wario
ROB
Lucario
Mr G&W
Fox
Pit
DK
...

there were quite some semi-viable characters as well, having their niche or being in lower positions due to some horrible matchups (like fox)


Coming into smash4 and after diddy nerf patch, we have very strong high tier characters that are as strong as old top tier characters, some characters who do best than the others because of a good matchup against sheik, and sheik, who loses no matchup and goes even with no one.
Most mid tiers were pretty good, having 1-3 hard matchups that needed a secondary but going even or slightly disadv with a lot of the "top8 major" characters. Overall pretty good balance, sheik was a kick in the balls for the game but whatever we kept at it.
With the release of cloudbayo it looks like this state is changing to a more typical of old smash games. A lot of the high tiers get **** on by those new characters (and let's not talk about the mid tiers), enough to have his viability hindered.
You played mario? You don't want to play him against cloud or bayonetta. You play MK? bayonetta ****s you so damn hard. You play sonic? haha I'm cloud. Villager? We DLC now. Adding a hard counter to a character makes him really suffer viablity-wise (see ).
It's very early to really say anything about this change in the meta and if they truly destroy those characters, but the hints are going there. And tbh I really feel that the viable characters will be and maybe . There are also characters that don't really care about the dlcgods nor see his viability affected, and some others may rise due to the changes of the meta, but all around it looks like it's going a bad way we already had.

Of course this is all under the assumption that I'm right at all my hints and there are no balance patches coming, which I wish I'm wrong.

 

[Ghostbone]

Bayo probably loses to

Not quite sure on the specifics, but if bayonetta witch times ness right before he hits himself with PK thunder, he basically goes in weird directions like straight down or away from the stage. It's pretty dumb and while not as forgiving to land as gravity pull, it's still pretty dumb and ness off-stage should always die if that's actually a consistent thing to pull off.

And in general if he has to up-b any further away than half of the distance (probably slightly less than that) he always dies to witch time shenanigans.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'd assume a viable character is one who can make top8 as solo, so:

Ok, so melee has this amount of viable and semi-viable characters:

fox
falco
marth
sheik
samus?
jigglypuff

those five have the best matchups against fox as far as I know, who's the clear best in the game, so I'd assume they're the 5 best (samus probably isn't but whatever)

peach
ice climbers
pikachu
yoshi
falcon
marios / ganondorf?

those would be the semi viable characters.
other characters are usually negligible (although they can have their niche like young link against puff).
In a game with 20 something characters, it's not so bad.

Let's take a look at brawl:

MK
IC
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Falco
Zero Suit Samus
Snake
Marth
Pikachu

Those were the top tiers characters (give or take), and while most lost to MK the matchups usually weren't soo bad. 4-6~~35-65 at worst.

King DDD
Wario
ROB
Lucario
Mr G&W
Fox
Pit
DK
...

there were quite some semi-viable characters as well, having their niche or being in lower positions due to some horrible matchups (like fox)


Coming into smash4 and after diddy nerf patch, we have very strong high tier characters that are as strong as old top tier characters, some characters who do best than the others because of a good matchup against sheik, and sheik, who loses no matchup and goes even with no one.
Most mid tiers were pretty good, having 1-3 hard matchups that needed a secondary but going even or slightly disadv with a lot of the "top8 major" characters. Overall pretty good balance, sheik was a kick in the balls for the game but whatever we kept at it.
With the release of cloudbayo it looks like this state is changing to a more typical of old smash games. A lot of the high tiers get **** on by those new characters (and let's not talk about the mid tiers), enough to have his viability hindered.
You played mario? You don't want to play him against cloud or bayonetta. You play MK? bayonetta ****s you so damn hard. You play sonic? haha I'm cloud. Villager? We DLC now. Adding a hard counter to a character makes him really suffer viablity-wise (see ).
It's very early to really say anything about this change in the meta and if they truly destroy those characters, but the hints are going there. And tbh I really feel that the viable characters will be and maybe . There are also characters that don't really care about the dlcgods nor see his viability affected, and some others may rise due to the changes of the meta, but all around it looks like it's going a bad way we already had.

Of course this is all under the assumption that I'm right at all my hints and there are no balance patches coming, which I wish I'm wrong.

If the top tiers of brawl or melee don't shut down the rest of the characters below them, then there's no way on earth the top tiers of smash 4 are the special snowflakes that do.

 

[BunbUn129]

I'd assume a viable character is one who can make top8 as solo, so:

Ok, so melee has this amount of viable and semi-viable characters:

fox
falco
marth
sheik
samus?
jigglypuff

those five have the best matchups against fox as far as I know, who's the clear best in the game, so I'd assume they're the 5 best (samus probably isn't but whatever)

peach
ice climbers
pikachu
yoshi
falcon
marios / ganondorf?

those would be the semi viable characters.
other characters are usually negligible (although they can have their niche like young link against puff).
In a game with 20 something characters, it's not so bad.

Let's take a look at brawl:

MK
IC
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Falco
Zero Suit Samus
Snake
Marth
Pikachu

Those were the top tiers characters (give or take), and while most lost to MK the matchups usually weren't soo bad. 4-6~~35-65 at worst.

King DDD
Wario
ROB
Lucario
Mr G&W
Fox
Pit
DK
...

there were quite some semi-viable characters as well, having their niche or being in lower positions due to some horrible matchups (like fox)


Coming into smash4 and after diddy nerf patch, we have very strong high tier characters that are as strong as old top tier characters, some characters who do best than the others because of a good matchup against sheik, and sheik, who loses no matchup and goes even with no one.
Most mid tiers were pretty good, having 1-3 hard matchups that needed a secondary but going even or slightly disadv with a lot of the "top8 major" characters. Overall pretty good balance, sheik was a kick in the balls for the game but whatever we kept at it.
With the release of cloudbayo it looks like this state is changing to a more typical of old smash games. A lot of the high tiers get **** on by those new characters (and let's not talk about the mid tiers), enough to have his viability hindered.
You played mario? You don't want to play him against cloud or bayonetta. You play MK? bayonetta ****s you so damn hard. You play sonic? haha I'm cloud. Villager? We DLC now. Adding a hard counter to a character makes him really suffer viablity-wise (see ).
It's very early to really say anything about this change in the meta and if they truly destroy those characters, but the hints are going there. And tbh I really feel that the viable characters will be and maybe . There are also characters that don't really care about the dlcgods nor see his viability affected, and some others may rise due to the changes of the meta, but all around it looks like it's going a bad way we already had.

Of course this is all under the assumption that I'm right at all my hints and there are no balance patches coming, which I wish I'm wrong.

All this talk that "Bayonetta is bull****, Witch Time winz gamez," and "Cloud is OP, OMG, uair too good," is all reflective of how we have become far too used to balance patches. "These characters are killing the meta and invalidating most of the cast"--just stop right there. Yes, these characters are really good, but that doesn't mean we should be wishing for balance patches. Some people are forgoing learning MU's in favor of hoping for nerfs, which is pretty sad to see. These characters have overtuned moves, sure, but are you saying there weren't already a number of characters with overtuned moves? Bayo and Cloud have cheese, but so does Sheik, Ryu, MK, and ZSS.

It's funny because back when M2 was released, people were upset that he was a terrible character. Now people are upset because Cloud and Bayonetta are actually very viable.

 

[Solfiner]

I dunno about you guys, but I think Mario, Ryu, Ness and Fox are still very viable.

 

[Y2Kay]

If you're not gonna say it, I'm gonna say it because my edits to the tier list are forward thinking in exactly that same way.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

$5.99 is the future the darkness is coming

This is seriously competing for one of the......worst tier lists I've ever seen.

In what universe is Samus and Little Mac more viable than Ike, ROB, and Pit?

 

[Man Li Gi]

LOL, this "discussion" is so funny. It's actually getting spurred by other mods. This is fantastic. I made a post a while back about how having weak resolve will kill this game and it's happening right now. You what could kill the game faster tho? Trying to compare this game to another game where players simply quit because of weak resolve. Have fun killing this game. I mean I was just starting to like this game, but hey ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Pancracio17]

eventhubs yo

 

[Y2Kay]

LOL, this "discussion" is so funny. It's actually getting spurred by other mods. This is fantastic. I made a post a while back about how having weak resolve will kill this game and it's happening right now. You what could kill the game faster tho? Trying to compare this game to another game where players simply quit because of weak resolve. Have fun killing this game. I mean I was just starting to like this game, but hey ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

TBH tho aren't they just killing the game for themselves?

 

[Man Li Gi]

TBH tho aren't they just killing the game for themselves?

They may be killing it for themselves at first, but once some see people quit, many join the bandwagon until only the top players play it or the truly dedicated. Brawl had that. Some even completely denounced Brawl when they left.

Geez for being a Smash 4 thread, we love talking about and hating Brawl for no justified reason outside of lol IC and MK.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Eugene Wang]

If we're pulling comparisons to other Smash games, I'll try to pull an extended analogy between SSB4's metagame and Melee's metagame.

= , having no bad matchups, being highly versatile, requiring high levels of skill to play effectively, and being infamous for centralizing the metagame around them (Why else would Smashville be dubbed "Sheikville"?).
= , going well against the entire cast and standing toe-to-toe with number one regularly.
= , super strong, but having losing matchups to a handful of other top tiers.
= , infamous for being (relatively) easy to pick up and win with, but still losing regularly to the gods.
= , hated by plenty for making matches play differently, and being successful enough that this happens regularly.

Below that, the one-top-one correspondence between melee characters and Smash 4 characters breaks down. and are both analogous to the in that they have a disadvantage in neutral, but infamously strong advantage states that can lead to low-percent kills if they are spot-on with their punishes. , , and are like in that the tier list positions suggest they are solid and should be common in top-level play, but aren't common in top level play. I could go further, but my shoehorn is starting to bend, and I still want to use it to put on shoes.

At least Smash 4's low tiers are tournament viable, unlike Melee's low tiers.

 

[Y2Kay]

They may be killing it for themselves at first, but once some see people quit, many join the bandwagon until only the top players play it or the truly dedicated. Brawl had that. Some even completely denounced Brawl when they left.

Geez for being a Smash 4 thread, we love talking about and hating Brawl for no justified reason outside of lol IC and MK.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well I'm doing my best to not get discouraged. I've come too far to really quit now. I've been purposefully avoiding trying to complain about the new DLC. Once I get the time to actually lab these matchups, I'll post my feelings about them.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Well I'm doing my best to not get discouraged. I've come too far to really quit now. I've been purposefully avoiding trying to complain about the new DLC. Once I get the time to actually lab these matchups, I'll post my feelings about them.

Thank goodness someone gets it. Its a bad look for any new player to see mid to top level players see everyone in disarray and chaos over a couple characters. People should accept that the game is unbalanced and start labbing, so if and when a patch drops, we are prepared. I feel like not many people used to lab in this game due to patches or just being new to the game. That period should've ended long ago by now and we should be growing to know top tier to high tier MU like the back of our hands. Beat GGA|Demitus (MK) with my fraudulent DK. Step up the game people!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Protip:

Complain, but play the ****ing game instead of letting it seep into every aspect.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Flux0r]

Why are people whining about the introduction of legitimately good characters? I would whine if they only introduced bad ones.

With the introduction of three more super-viable characters and two viable ones, there's never been so many top-tiers to choose from in a Smash game ever. The argument of no "suiting playstyles" dosen't hold water anymore.

People are never satisfied.