3DS Community Patch Notes v1.0.4 -- Engine Changes to DI

[Game And Guy]

Any more for GW?
Buffs, hopefully?
ANYTHING????????

 

[momochuu]

Wow. Greninja wasn't even that good to begin with, imo. Now, well, let's just say I'm glad Pit seems untouched so far. And that Spring isn't too far off.

no, he definitely was.

he's still good though.

 

[DiamondDust]

No, don't get me wrong, he's GOOD... but not great. There certainly hasn't been the same outcry for his nerfing like with Little Mac or Rosie.

I gotcha. I've never even felt Little Mac was even that great. Sure, his ground game is good and his rolls are awesome, but his recovery is booty butt cheeks and he has no air game to speak of. He's the god of casual play for sure though.

 

[NightmareMMZero]

I just tried it now and I still slid to my death

Sorry, I should be clearer. You can still slide off and die if you hit the edge of the stage, but the Mii Swordfighter's Airborne Assault has had the landing slide significantly reduced. There is unfortunately still a little bit of movement and can unfortunately still hit the stage and slide off prone, but it's not as drastic as it was before.

 

[TiersAreReal]

Patch notes are useful because they arm me with knowledge that I can use *against* characters. For instance I now know that I don't have to worry about Lucario up-bing to the stage as much as I would have to before, and I can focus my edgeguard efforts on the ledge. A Lucario in tournament could be recovering to the ledge every time, knowing the limitations of his character (that he can't recover onto the stage any more), and I would be oblivious, always keeping an unnecessary eye on the stage in case he decides to recover there.

There is this as well. Even in games like Battlefield, I want to know when they make a change to how my gun handles. Let me know if the vertical recoil increased a bit or if it got better ADS accuracy. I will take this knowledge into account and adjust my playstyle accordingly. Same with Smash. I want to know so I can make more informed decisions about how I play.

 

[PurpleBanana]

No, don't get me wrong, he's GOOD... but not great. There certainly hasn't been the same outcry for his nerfing like with Little Mac or Rosie.

That's my main issue with his nerfs. Air cancel, okay. Hydro pump nerf, sure *went a little far but*. Up smash end lag nerf, uh I guess. Water shuriken nerf, what


But at least side b is slightly less unsafe, so that makes up for it. I mean, it's still really unsafe, but at least you won't eat a d3 fsmash, only the d smash.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

When me and AA did BBrawl, verifying patch notes took both of us about a full week per release.

Each BBrawl release was also smaller than this patch.


To play devil's advocate, in a perfect world (where patches are still needed), magical wizards would balance the game in the background without anyone noticing, and there would be no patch notes.

Because, honestly, why do you need patch notes?

Seriously--why do you need them?

You're not going to "adjust your playstyle", don't kid yourself.

All patch notes are from a functional standpoint is kindling for johns.


I do think patch notes are needed, because this isn't a perfect world and the pragmatic benefits outweigh the ideological costs. But, their absence in no way hurts me as a competitive player.

1 Frame can mean EVERYTHING in a Fighting game. You should see Street Fighter IV patches that make almost imperceptible changes that completely shift the balance of the game. Just imagine Melee Fox Shine being 1F slower, with the invincibility delayed that 1F.. It's be huge, and important to know.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Here's some info for Kirby. From what I can tell, nothing was changed about him.

However, I did NOT test out things such as sourspots, starting/ending/landing lag, movement speeds, knockback angles, recovery distances, etc. so any of those could potentially be changed. This also means that the "range buffs" or "start-up times" on some of his moves that are supposedly buffed COULD be real.

From the testing I have done, along with my general knowledge and familiarity of Kirby, I don't think anything was actually changed to him overall.

Copy Abilities were slightly altered, with the different "glitches" being removed, such as Hyper Rollout and Thoron Jump Restoration. I will later be testing to see if Kirby got any differences with abilities that had their original version changed, such as Olimar's Pikmin Throw.

Has anybody's Neutral Specials been altered in any way? If so, could somebody please tell me?

Oh god so much pink. I'll leave it to Aero to add.

I also hope Aero will make buffs green and nerfs red because colors!

Or I'll do both of these when I get home.

 

[FullMoon]

No, don't get me wrong, he's GOOD... but not great. There certainly hasn't been the same outcry for his nerfing like with Little Mac or Rosie.

I don't get why did they focus most of the nerfing on Greninja either, but eh, I can live with it. Greninja's at worst a mid-tier character now and I can live with that even if I might struggle sometimes.

Now if only they had buffed Substitute.

 

[LordFluffy]

Can confirm confirm that Robin and Palutena's grabs are the same speed as they always were (on whiff)? I think Palutena's feels faster going from 1.0.3. to 1.0.4., but I can't do a side-by-side comparison. It would be really cool if the endlag had been reduced on Palutena's grab.

Whiffed grabs, standing and dash have the same recovery as 1.0.3 no change.

 

[Funkermonster]

So they nerfed Greninja's Up Smash and Hydro Pump's windbox to an extent.. Darn you Sakurai.. The nerfs to Lucario's UpB and Yoshi's Dash attack though, thank you! Falco's blaster also seems to have a bit of a quicker rate of fire too, and that's pretty cool!

I still think it was way too early to make a balance patch and I find a few of the changes questionable, but so far at least nothing else drastic seems to have happened. But seriously, have there been ANY changes to Marth o Lucina discovered yet? People said Fthrow and Dthrow seem to combo better, but I don't believe it.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I don't know how your teams do game development, but whenever any programmer on our game dev team made a code change, the effect of that code change had to be documented, so that rollbacks are easy and we know what we're rolling back to. Assembling patch notes for our games takes something on the order of minutes, for changes much larger than this patch.

Patch notes are useful because they arm me with knowledge that I can use *against* characters. For instance I now know that I don't have to worry about Lucario up-bing to the stage as much as I would have to before, and I can focus my edgeguard efforts on the ledge. A Lucario in tournament could be recovering to the ledge every time, knowing the limitations of his character (that he can't recover onto the stage any more), and I would be oblivious, always keeping an unnecessary eye on the stage in case he decides to recover there.

I, like Thinkaman, have a small team of 2 people. If we had a larger team perhaps changes would indeed be easier to document. Then again, Sakurai did basically say that all balance changes go through him so there seems to be a huge process to it. Therefore no real excuse to not include them in patch notes.

 

[momochuu]

the water shuriken nerf is the only thing about greninja that really makes no sense. its not that durable of a projectile, it can't be stored as it is which is why they made it so fast, and he still can't store it after the nerf. what gives?

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't know how your teams do game development, but whenever any programmer on our game dev team made a code change, the effect of that code change had to be documented, so that rollbacks are easy and we know what we're rolling back to. Assembling patch notes for our games takes something on the order of minutes, for changes much larger than this patch.

Yeah, in our case it was just because someone (me) insisted on doing a bitwise diff of all finalized files, and doing a bi-lateral accountability check against all commit notes.

It's not uncommon for engineering documentation to have as low as a 90% accuracy rate. Technical writing is really hard, and really expensive.

1 Frame can mean EVERYTHING in a Fighting game. You should see Street Fighter IV patches that make almost imperceptible changes that completely shift the balance of the game. Just imagine Melee Fox Shine being 1F slower, with the invincibility delayed that 1F.. It's be huge, and important to know.

Preaching to the pope, broski.

 

[Ohzma]

Falco's dair feels much faster and his Usmash has better hitbox,I can actually hit the person behind me now!

 

[PurpleBanana]

the water shuriken nerf is the only thing about greninja that really makes no sense. its not that durable of a projectile, it can't be stored as it is which is why they made it so fast, and he still can't store it after the nerf. what gives?

I guess sakurai prefers jet boots over long tongues now.

 

[Funkermonster]

the water shuriken nerf is the only thing about greninja that really makes no sense. its not that durable of a projectile, it can't be stored as it is which is why they made it so fast, and he still can't store it after the nerf. what gives?

What water shuriken nerf again?

 

[Spirst]

the water shuriken nerf is the only thing about greninja that really makes no sense. its not that durable of a projectile, it can't be stored as it is which is why they made it so fast, and he still can't store it after the nerf. what gives?

I have no idea but it's quite frustrating. I'm wondering if Sakurai felt like Greninja was the best character in the game hence the number of nerfs he received.

@ Funkermonster I believe the water shuriken grab invulnerability frames are gone and the move has a longer cooldown time.

 

[Nysyr]

Well Greninja was exceptionally hard to punish, even if he attacked into a well DI'd shield. Upsmash particularly was basically unpunishable.

 

[PurpleBanana]

I have no idea but it's quite frustrating. I'm wondering if Sakurai felt like Greninja was the best character in the game hence the number of nerfs he received.

He must not have played with the upper half of the roster.

 

[NairWizard]

I, like Thinkaman, have a small team of 2 people. If we had a larger team perhaps changes would indeed be easier to document. Then again, Sakurai did basically say that all balance changes go through him so there seems to be a huge process to it. Therefore no real excuse to not include them in patch notes.

It's even easier with a team of 2. Just force yourself and the other guy to document everything that you do, and make changes incrementally, instead of making large-scale overhauls (you should never be making changes that can't be summarized with a single-sentence statement without committing your code to some kind of remote repository). This is just a good software development practice, nothing more.

However, I understand that people may feel slighted by certain balance changes, and that may have been a factor in Nintendo's deciding to not release them. They don't owe us anything, really.

 

[momochuu]

What water shuriken nerf again?

its slightly but still noticeably slower. it still has the same damage and knockback though.

 

[ChikoLad]

The OP requires a correction - Rosalina's Up Smash does NOT have decreased knockback. Rather, it now has an angle.

Before, I was unsure if there was a knockback reduction as well as an angle addition, but I've confirmed that only the latter is true.

@Mario_and_Sonic_Guy had KO percents (on Mario) for the move as posted in the Rosalina Complete Coverage thread from before the patch. Those were "over 130%" uncharged, and 100% fully charged. Those KO percents hold true (bare minimum without vectoring for uncharged is 135%, bare minimum for fully charged is 95%).

However, Bowser was definitely harder to KO with it for some reason. I'm guessing that vertically-oriented launches with an angle are less effective on heavyweights, due to their wait veering the angle horizontally more than lighter characters.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I JUST CHECKED SONIC'S USMASH KB AND IT'S UNCHANGED FROM LAST PATCH

 

[DiamondDust]

Am I the only one that can't seem to get Ike's Fair to autocancel after a SH? I haven't done it even once.

 

[Elessar]

@ SamuraiPanda I have compiled again the info we have along with the data and where it came from.

NERFS:
* Toss Canceling has been completely removed.
* There is still no proper ZAC (found by FSK).
* Hitstun can't be canceled anymore due to the removal of Toss Canceling (found by FSK).
* Fsmash 1st hit now doesn't kill unless it connects with the tip hitbox (My own findings in training on a CPU with up to 999% dmg).
* The rocket jump or boost jump has been changed. Now instead of launching into the air it makes you get on stage standing up with no lag (my own findings). Calling this ZLedge Boost.

BUFFS:
* Link's grab has been Fixed. Before the grab range was shorter than the visual representation of the Clawshot; now it seems to be the same (my own findings and confirmed by LordFluffy).
* Gale travels further. It still connects a hit at about 3/4 distance of FD. Gale effect starts a bit over that distance (My own findings and confirmed by LordFluffy).
* Gale has been buffed and is overall faster. Faster throwing/catching animation and faster air speed once it's out (My own finding along with Zane the Pure and confirmed by LordFluffy).
* Fsmash 1st & 2nd are a true combo up to 150% without any spacing required. Improved from before that the second smash would whiff without proper spacing and timing starting at 100% (My own findings).
* Fsmash 1st hit with tipper hitbox uncharged kills at 120% and fully charged at 90%, buffed from previous 110% (My own findings from the middle of FD on Mario).

 

[Meloetta Star]

Further on the Little Mac KO punch - if anyone wants to help me test.

As far as i can tell - Mario is a clean KO at 24% on 1.0.3

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Am I the only one that can't seem to get Ike's Fair to autocancel after a SH? I haven't done it even once.

Gotta buffer it ASAP if its from SH.

 

[Funkermonster]

The least they could have done was buff Greninja's substitute counter by making it faster or something... Oh well, I'm still sticking with him either way and I doubt his nerfs'll hurt him that much.

Any changes noticeable on Duck Hunt? From what I played, he feels almost exactly the same as before. The one thing that does feel different about him as that his UpB feels a little more.. stiff, or I'm probably just having illusions.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The OP requires a correction - Rosalina's Up Smash does NOT have decreased knockback. Rather, it now has an angle.

i CAN CONFIRM IT CAPS

 

[GoldWindRequiem]

I just realized something. Why the hell didn't Nintendo release the patch notes themselves? It feels lazy that they're forcing people to do their own job. What if we miss (minor) unknown patches like a misplaced pixel?! WE NEED TO KNOW!

Seriously, why aren't there detailed patch notes from the developers?

I feel you, man. CyberConnect2 did the same exact thing as Nintendo with JoJo's Bizare Adventure: All Star Battle and the Naruto: Ultimate Ninja Storm games, and it pissed me off to no end. I hate it when game devs don't post patch notes. It's an incredibly infuriating and tedious process to figure stuff out yourself.

 

[BCE]

wow, samus, fox, diddy kong and charizard really have 0 love ? no talking about their changes so far -_-

 

[Deleted member]

All of these changes, but Sakurai still couldn't be bothered to have enemies immobilized until a counter animation finishes if they activate the counter, so those moves are actually, you know, counters?

 

[Thinkaman]

I can (re)confirm that it kills later, so same KB must equal a wider angle.

 

[NairWizard]

wow, samus, fox, diddy kong and charizard really have 0 love ? no talking about their changes so far -_-

That's because none of these characters were changed. Charizard's Dragon Rush was nerfed in damage, Diddy Kong lost his peanut popgun cancel, and that's about it as far as we know. Relax.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm about to have 1.0.3 and 1.0.4 side by side. I'll be able to test stuff super fast, including verify timing changes. I don't even know where to start. What needs doing?

 

[Flamecircle]

Samus and Charizard were definitely talked about, briefly.

nuthin good for them, though.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm about to have 1.0.3 and 1.0.4 side by side. I'll be able to test stuff super fast, including verify timing changes. I don't even know where to start. What needs doing?

START BY TESTING

some of the dubious things in the OP

Edit: Baiscally everyone's "I THINK" posts

 

[DiamondDust]

Gotta buffer it ASAP if its from SH.

Ah, I see. Thanks.

 

[Thinkaman]

I JUST CHECKED SONIC'S USMASH KB AND IT'S UNCHANGED FROM LAST PATCH

I'm on this.

Me and AA tested it like 3 times because we didn't believe it.