2013 Community Tier List

[Yeroc]

KK, when I last talked to you about Puff Sheik at APEX 201(2?) it sounded to me like you felt it was a tremendously bad MU, so I'm curious to know what apparently changed your mind.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The realization that sharp objects pop balloons.

 

[Bones0]

The realization that sharp objects pop balloons.

So I guess the irony was that you were the one who was full of hot air all along.

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

I think we are looking at the punish game differently. You are only seeing it in regards to pure capability which doesn't necessarily give you an idea of actuality. Sure, Jiggs is able to punish grab with rest, but is this really an option if Sheik never goes for grabs?

To elaborate, and to perhaps patronizingly state, being able to get hits is an important part of the punish game.

My point is puff largely outclasses sheik in the punish game. I said nothing about the matchup. The punish game IS pure capability. Getting hits is not an important part of the punish game. Getting hits is the neutral game. The punish game is how you can combo after those hits or how hard you can punish a mistake.

Sheik rarely gets combos but puff can convert a hit or trade into a stock.

Your views of the Puff vs Sheik matchup are very different than mine.

I don't think we disagree that much.I was merely stating what each character gets punish wise. I was by no means saying the matchup was horrible just that puff gets harder combos.

I personally would say the matchup is in puffs favor simply because sheik has to play the matchup all but perfectly. One mistake in di, spacing, or a grab can mean a stock. Puff making a mistake doesn't mean much unless it's like a sing sd. The same could be said about the marth matchup.

Her rest punishes are by no means weak but they are nowhere near as powerful as ics, Fox, marth, falcon, gannon, puff, or even falco.

Again yes, it is by no means unwinnable. Sheik has options. No one said it was awful but I think it's more than fair to say puff beats marth/sheik by +.5/+1 I'd say marth does better since his recovery is less vulnerable and he actually has an option to to get a low percent kill with fthrow/dthrow

 

[Bones0]

Woah woah woah, Falco's rest punishes SUCK. If you can avoid their SDI/ground tech mixups, you still only get a dair into uair. I think even Peach can get more % than that when there's no plats above to block turnip into immediate fair. I'd only give the edge to Falco because he has dtilt and usmash to KO while Peach is kinda SOL in that category.

 

[KP17]

falco also has utilt and shine... utilt shine bair, utilt double shine, utilt FH dair utilt -> shenanigans, dair dtilt -> aerial, double dair (late dair -> early sh dair) -> tech chase

falcos rest punishes definitely dont suck, just not top tier. better than sheik and peach imo bc of kill potential. the hard part is reading their DI

 

[1MachGO]

My point is puff largely outclasses sheik in the punish game. I said nothing about the matchup. The punish game IS pure capability. Getting hits is not an important part of the punish game. Getting hits is the neutral game. The punish game is how you can combo after those hits or how hard you can punish a mistake.

Sheik rarely gets combos but puff can convert a hit or trade into a stock.

How does your statement "puff largely outclasses sheik in the punish game" not pertain to the matchup? Such a discussion can literally only exist in CONTEXT of the MU.

And no, pure capability is not the only dimension to the punish game because its primarily theoretical. While combos and follow ups are important, being able to punish a mistake is an element you cannot omit. Consider Marth vs. Fox, an even/stage dependent MU. Marth has powerful punishes from grabs and while edge guarding, but who can actually mobilize their punishes from different situations? Sure, Marth can potentially get a lot of mileage from one mistake by Fox, but Fox can capitalize on Marth's mistakes with greater ease due to his superior movement speed, quick attacks, and amazing vertical mobility. Ultimately, their punish games are equal with Marth hitting harder and Fox more frequently.

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

Woah woah woah, Falco's rest punishes SUCK. If you can avoid their SDI/ground tech mixups, you still only get a dair into uair. I think even Peach can get more % than that when there's no plats above to block turnip into immediate fair. I'd only give the edge to Falco because he has dtilt and usmash to KO while Peach is kinda SOL in that category.

Falco's fsmash kills WAY earlier than any of sheik's options (it might be comparable if she can fully charge a tipper usmash). I've seen PP get dair shine shine pretty reliably which KO's on all but DL and FoD. Even dair shine uair does roughly 30%(?) which is more than sheik/peach and kills at like 60-70.

How does your statement "puff largely outclasses sheik in the punish game" not pertain to the matchup? Such a discussion can literally only exist in CONTEXT of the MU.

And no, pure capability is not the only dimension to the punish game because its primarily theoretical. While combos and follow ups are important, being able to punish a mistake is an element you cannot omit. Consider Marth vs. Fox, an even/stage dependent MU. Marth has powerful punishes from grabs and while edge guarding, but who can actually mobilize their punishes from different situations? Sure, Marth can potentially get a lot of mileage from one mistake by Fox, but Fox can capitalize on Marth's mistakes with greater ease due to his superior movement speed, quick attacks, and amazing vertical mobility. Ultimately, their punish games are equal with Marth hitting harder and Fox more frequently.

Of course it HAS to do with matchup but I specifically did not comment on the matchup. You perspective seems to be that I think the matchup is largely in puffs favor when I have simply said the PUNISH game is largely in her favor. I agree being able to punish is important but imo that is 100% in the hands of the player--if they can recognize/react to it on time, if they chose the right options/follow DI, etc. As for your analogy, you are forgetting that it is much easier to execute marth's punishes and to initiate them. A mistake in this context is by definition something your opponent CAN punish. It doesn't matter if you roll/charge usmash/ w/e across the stage because it can't be punished (except like by Samus lol). So if a player makes a mistake its up to his opponent to punish. Of course you can argue that Fox will have significantly more situations in which he can punish, but that is because his neutral game is absolutely broken (ie he can literally punish things no other character could). So yes you could say this is a part of the punish game but its because of the neutral game. But this is not applicable in anyone but fox's matchups (and sort of falcos).

After a mistake, Sheik gets a single aerial/smash/grab>aerial and rarely anything else against puff. Puff can regularly convert a trade/hit aerial into a stock/several moree aerials. Puff can convert a mistake of sheik's into several uairs/bairs/a rest. After puff makes a mistake the game is reset to neutral more often than not. So the burden is on the sheik player to play considerably more perfect.

 

[1MachGO]

Of course it HAS to do with matchup but I specifically did not comment on the matchup. You perspective seems to be that I think the matchup is largely in puffs favor when I have simply said the PUNISH game is largely in her favor. I agree being able to punish is important but imo that is 100% in the hands of the player--if they can recognize/react to it on time, if they chose the right options/follow DI, etc. As for your analogy, you are forgetting that it is much easier to execute marth's punishes and to initiate them. A mistake in this context is by definition something your opponent CAN punish. It doesn't matter if you roll/charge usmash/ w/e across the stage because it can't be punished (except like by Samus lol). So if a player makes a mistake its up to his opponent to punish. Of course you can argue that Fox will have significantly more situations in which he can punish, but that is because his neutral game is absolutely broken (ie he can literally punish things no other character could). So yes you could say this is a part of the punish game but its because of the neutral game. But this is not applicable in anyone but fox's matchups (and sort of falcos).

After a mistake, Sheik gets a single aerial/smash/grab>aerial and rarely anything else against puff. Puff can regularly convert a trade/hit aerial into a stock/several moree aerials. Puff can convert a mistake of sheik's into several uairs/bairs/a rest. After puff makes a mistake the game is reset to neutral more often than not. So the burden is on the sheik player to play considerably more perfect.

You are discussing elements which cannot be so nicely isolated and doing so comes off as a effort to move the goalposts. What is the point in comparing their theoretical punish games? You might win an internet argument on the basis of pure logic but the evaluation itself would be entirely useless information because it can't be applied to anything realistic.

Furthermore, I never accused you of discussing the match up as a whole and have never done so myself (barring my initial post). However, the punish game is an element of the MU and cannot be discussed without referring to other aspects (such as mobility and other attributes) because they effect the punish game.

This example might help clarify what I mean:

During this gif (courtesy of Kadano), Link cannot grab or up-b to retaliate without getting hit. It is important to note that this isn't because Marth has put Link in some kind of inescapable shield pressure string, its because Link's OoS options are too slow to deal with this situation. Other characters with better attributes (faster attacks, better jumpsquat, etc.) could potential retaliate.

In regards to the Jigglypuff/Sheik MU, Sheik is clearly the character with better attributes for responding to changing situations. What is Jigglypuff going to do if Sheik decides to rapidly ascend to the top platform? What about vice versa? This scenario is somewhat of a hyperbole but it should demonstrate my point.

TL;DR: Your punishes are only as good as your ability to mobilize them.

 

[net1234]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMj2eU0MvI

 

[doctorayegee]

How is Mario worse than Luigi? A Rookie kicks so much ass with Mario.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I can use the same logic with Luigi. Abate/Vudujin/Eddy Mexico kick so much ass with Luigi. One player does not make the character.

 

[Griffard]

Also Mario has incredibly few representatives. Luigi has enjoyed a wide range both skill and geography-wise of tournament players.
Abate, Eddy Mexico, Blea Gelo, ROFL, Vist, Ka-Master, Vudujin to name a few. I don't know of any tournament A Rookie has ever won, but all the players I have listed have either won or placed very highly at tournaments with many big names in attendance.

 

[1MachGO]

Mario is currently the most underrated character in the game

It has always confused me as to where people draw the line between "capabilities" and "tourney results". Fox has enjoyed the #1 position based on his capabilities for years, yet Mario isn't judged by them whatsoever. The fact Mario and Doc are ranked so far from each other is a testament to how misunderstood the differences between the two characters are. If you research them (and I don't mean quoting hearsay by commentators), I guarantee you would struggle to determine which one was better. Personally, I think Mario is slightly better than Doc (which I will elaborate on) but I also believe that there is a strong case to be made that Mario and Doc are tied or that Mario is slightly worse. Either way, its silly to suggest that they rank more than one placing apart.

If I had any weight in the decision making, I would say Mario places at the bottom of "S" tier (right on the cusp). Mario is one of the least exploitable characters in the entire roster (less so than Doc due to Mario's substantially better recovery) and possesses a solid, adaptable moveset. I would even go as far to say that he lacks a solid counter with Marth being the only character who might come close; however, at the price of well roundedness, he doesn't get anything for free and lacks a counter of his own. The result is an odd balance where Mario has to work harder than the more polarized characters above him on the tier list because he can't muscle or cheese his way through anything.

Furthermore, there is a lot of evidence that Mario is pretty unexplored. AMSa changed the minds of a lot of players about Yoshi, yet Mario is still considered inferior to doc well after Mango's stint with Scorpion Master. The issue is that a lot of people will just argue "well its Mango" but this is a poor stance because, honestly, I don't think Mango could have replicated the same feat with character's like G&W, Roy, Link, etc. who have far more glaring weaknesses. Mario, like many characters, is held back by a lack of professional players representing him and pushing his meta. However, unlike those he is ranked with, he definitely has the tools and capabilities to be pushed into relevancy with enough dedication. His recovery, for instance, is pretty overlooked. Especially when you consider the ridiculous implications of up-b wall jump which can prevent you from getting edgehogged on every tourney legal stage except for maybe battlefield.

 

[gravy]

All I know for sure is that marth sucks.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Marth is definitely the worst character in this game.

 

[Kadano]

All I know for sure is that marth sucks.

Marth is definitely the worst character in this game.

Can you present some evidence to back up your claims? It would be my pleasure to take it apart.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Evidence.zip on the way.

 

[Bones0]

inb4results

 

[HRR2b23]

Marth is definitely the worst character in this game.

I don't know about that, but I do know that Zelda is top tier.

 

[john!]

why is everyone typing in blue

 

[Bones0]

why is everyone typing in blue

What can I say, I'm a trendsetter.

#FSBR
@ crush

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I don't know about that, but I do know that Zelda is top tier.

I think you're in the wrong section. You belong in the PM boards where Zelda is ********. Seriously, why the **** does Din's Fire just hang out before exploding?

why is everyone typing in blue

All the cool dudes had a meeting and decided it was the way to go.

 

[doctorayegee]

Mario is currently the most underrated character in the game

It has always confused me as to where people draw the line between "capabilities" and "tourney results". Fox has enjoyed the #1 position based on his capabilities for years, yet Mario isn't judged by them whatsoever. The fact Mario and Doc are ranked so far from each other is a testament to how misunderstood the differences between the two characters are. If you research them (and I don't mean quoting hearsay by commentators), I guarantee you would struggle to determine which one was better. Personally, I think Mario is slightly better than Doc (which I will elaborate on) but I also believe that there is a strong case to be made that Mario and Doc are tied or that Mario is slightly worse. Either way, its silly to suggest that they rank more than one placing apart.

If I had any weight in the decision making, I would say Mario places at the bottom of "S" tier (right on the cusp). Mario is one of the least exploitable characters in the entire roster (less so than Doc due to Mario's substantially better recovery) and possesses a solid, adaptable moveset. I would even go as far to say that he lacks a solid counter with Marth being the only character who might come close; however, at the price of well roundedness, he doesn't get anything for free and lacks a counter of his own. The result is an odd balance where Mario has to work harder than the more polarized characters above him on the tier list because he can't muscle or cheese his way through anything.

Furthermore, there is a lot of evidence that Mario is pretty unexplored. AMSa changed the minds of a lot of players about Yoshi, yet Mario is still considered inferior to doc well after Mango's stint with Scorpion Master. The issue is that a lot of people will just argue "well its Mango" but this is a poor stance because, honestly, I don't think Mango could have replicated the same feat with character's like G&W, Roy, Link, etc. who have far more glaring weaknesses. Mario, like many characters, is held back by a lack of professional players representing him and pushing his meta. However, unlike those he is ranked with, he definitely has the tools and capabilities to be pushed into relevancy with enough dedication. His recovery, for instance, is pretty overlooked. Especially when you consider the ridiculous implications of up-b wall jump which can prevent you from getting edgehogged on every tourney legal stage except for maybe battlefield.

I agree with you. People are just too lazy to give Mario a chance and take him to the next level. I hope I can be the one to change people's opinions about Mario. Doc might have a good combo game, but Mario's recovery is godly.

 

[crush]

shoutouts to cartilage0ne

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

Pro mario here, and im all about clearing up misconceptions between the three mario bros characters. First things first im also stronger than a rookie who noobies seem to be appreciating a lot more than usual recently. While a rookie is solid and knows his way around mario's techs, he has a weak punish game and movement and relies on his character gimmicks to win occasionally (see HMW vs rook at TNE). He also has an inferiority complex which led to his tag and refused to go through with our MM at apex 2014 out of fear, even after he boasted about how proficient he was at the mario ditto on SB months back. As it stands a rookie is little more than a fraud and should not be related to someone like amsa. However if you are a 12 aspiring mario player who needs a hero to hold on to look up n0nes mario, a foreign mario player who has real legitimate reasons to not attend apex 2014.

Now mario is a very intuitive character with no tricky, abnormal techniques like yoshi does aside from the up b walljump. The whole reason everyone was so surprised at yoshis performance at apex 2014 (not me though) was because his recovery and shield are so janky and functioned differently than what people were used to, leading them to fail with yoshi and leading everyone to think he was as bad as roy. However all amsa did was prove to everyone how these functions worked, and then some. We realized that yoshis recovery and sheild were not inferior, only different. Mario differs from this considering the fact that his movement is extremely similar to most characters with a short d dance and long wavedash, his attacks and recovery is very basic, and there are 4 other characters that are very similar to mario (doc luigi falcon ganon). This leaves very little to figure out with him, and i dont see up b walljump as a technique that will end up taking mario too far. There are still several other characters with difficult to edgegaurd recoveries (up b walljump is not unbeatable) and so, even if his revovery rises to that sort of level with this new piece of tech, he still has short comings in his ground game unlike characters like samus and peach. He wont be getting any better any time soon, up b wall jump will end up being akin to wobbling in how much it alters the characters' effectiveness, giving a one shot kill grab on a character with the strongest grab game. (The only difference being that up b walljump is much harder to perform and also wont be carrying mid level players to victory aka nintendude). Btw doc and mario play the same. The only difference is knowing what you should be looking for or what tools to prioritize, and how far you can extend with each without over extending. This means its very easy to compare the two when you contrast how each mario bro handles the situations they get put into.

Now for doc vs mario, something i have extensively thought over and tested myself, though never to see which of the two was better since obviously doc was better but to see if mario had any untapped potential. And he really doesnt, just a few small differences that become negligible when compared to docs gargantuan advantages. Even marios best unique tools, his fsmash, longer recovery + walljump, and more launchers in the form of fair and utilt, matter little when you factor in that dsmash is far more versatile and applicable than fsmash is, doc has an extremely safe recovery if coming from above since his pills are so wonderful that they neuter almost all opposition to doc returning safely, and marios more conversions matter little when you factor in how often mario can get off these two situational exclusive attacks, how much better the launchers that they share are for doc (uair and usmash), and how much stronger docs attacks are in general. Mario has few pros over doc and they sum up to little compared to how overpwering docs strengths are and how numerous they are. Doc even has his own underexplored tech in the form of up b canceling that is only recently being untilized in competition by mid level docs and it strengthens docs ground game much more so than up b walljump does for marios recovery. Now for the run down:

Mobility: even mostly
Comboing/ability to convert into or off of hits: doc arguably
Recovery: arguably doc without up b walljump
Projectile for all uses: doc
Crouch canceling game (very important for marios): doc
Killpower: doc by a landslide
Approach: doc
Oos options: doc with up b cancel, doc slightly without it
Gimps/edgegaurds:doc
Throw game: doc

Now mario is not terrible and while hes worse on paper hes still not that bad and still works, its just that everything that works would be better if the player was using doc (still not close to the point of marth vs roy however). I have never once played doc and wished that i couldve been mario in a certain scenario, but i have vice versa. If anyones under rating him( which to some extent they are) its due to people thinking hes as bad as link and not for neglecting his spot as equal to ganon. His spot on the tier list does him justice. If anyone has any questions as to why i think what i do, just ask, ive tested everything that the two have (and luigi too) and know all about their mechanics, more than any other smasher to date, to the point where its become almost a science. Just ask for a simple detail on their move differences and ill be happy to enlighten you about it. Ill post about luigi too if need be but his strengths over mario are fairly obvious.

 

[john!]

^ are you n0ne?

 

[Bones0]

Your name references Jar Jar Binks AND 9/11. Then you try to claim you are pro while putting A Rookie and Nintendude on blast. I will give your troll a 3/10, mostly for a lack of creativity. You certainly put in the effort with the TL;DR-worthy essay, and your username is just the right amount of absurdity to remain subtle. However, the potshot about A Rookie's tag being an inferiority complex and the silly "n0nes Mario" fabrication are not as convincing. I'm curious, did you just happen to come up with n0nes randomly, or did you actually rip that from the secular female YouTube vlog channel? The third alternative I considered makes me feel a tad narcissistic, but the name is uncomfortably close to my own.

Perhaps you are really just a crush alt and this is all a metatroll. Your avatars seem based on similar tastes of style, and it would fall in line with the Bones0 vs. cartilage0ne vs. n0ne joke... I'm on to you...

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

The third alternative I considered makes me feel a tad narcissistic

Just a tad?

 

[1MachGO]

Well, to Jar's credit, n0ne is an actual mario player and he is pretty legit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS5ICIrEO1k

However, I would still bet money he is a troll

 

[Bones0]

Well, to Jar's credit, n0ne is an actual mario player and he is pretty legit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS5ICIrEO1k

However, I would still bet money he is a troll

LOL That's hilarious...

I guess I am just a narcissistic conspiracy theorist...

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

LOL That's hilarious...

I guess I am just a narcissistic conspiracy theorist...

LOL why would I ever feel the need to swipe a name off of you of all people? There are hundreds of actually decent smash players I could pick from first.

 

[Bones0]

LOL why would I ever feel the need to swipe a name off of you of all people? There are hundreds of actually decent smash players I could pick from first.

It's already happened to me once, and the trend is pretty uncanny.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

It's already happened to me once, and the trend is pretty uncanny.

Thats someone else then. You could not find someone else on this planet who cared as little about you or your existence.

 

[john!]

bones i'm sure your knowledge of melee is extensive enough that you can respond to his mario vs. doc comparison with well-reasoned arguments instead of uninformed accusations of trolling. let's try to preserve what few and meager posting standards remain ITT

also one instance is not a trend

 

[Bones0]

bones i'm sure your knowledge of melee is extensive enough that you can respond to his mario vs. doc comparison with well-reasoned arguments instead of uninformed accusations of trolling. let's try to preserve what few and meager posting standards remain ITT

also one instance is not a trend

I actually agreed with most of his breakdown. The troll comments he added in were just too ridiculous to completely ignore. People take some of my posts way too seriously. lol

Honestly, I think the whole Doc vs. Mario comparisons get blown up with too many small details. I feel like out of all of their differences, fair vs. fsmash is the only relevant change ~90% of the time. Slight recovery (up-B walljump) or OoS (up-B cancel) buffs don't serve to change matchups much, but Doc being able to get guaranteed KOs on the entire cast at good percent windows is kind of ridiculous. The only thing Mario has that even competes with Doc's fair's usefulness is fsmash which just doesn't seem as reliable. I could totally see Mario being better in certain matchups where fireball fsmash is more important than Doc's fair, but even then it has to overcome a weaker cape and lack of pills which I think are the next two major differences. The rest of their various differences are mostly a wash.

If Mario players want to elevate their character, they have to develop their game with more precision to make sure they are getting the KO conversions and edgeguards that are basically guaranteed for Doc. They also have to learn when fireballs are worth using and when they should just take stage with movement. Being able to recover at ridiculous percents for the occasional extra percent/stock is good, but you're going to die most of the time so that difference alone won't be enough to make it worth using Mario. Everything has to come together much more perfectly for Mario, but the idea of him eventually catching up to or even surpassing Doc with efficient KOing and fsmash usage in niche scenarios doesn't seem that farfetched.

 

[kalvar]

Notable placings: None

Falco
Fox
Marth
Shiek
Jigglepuff
Peach
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Doctor Mario
Luigi
Samus
Young Link
Mario
Pikachu
Yoshi
Link
DK
Roy
Pichu
Zelda
Mewtwo
Game & Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby

 

[1MachGO]

In regards to Mario vs. Doc, there are only a handful of differences which are conclusively "better" on one character rather than the other (and up-b cancel ain't one of em, that technique is barely situational let alone useful). Everything else is so minute that they only become relevant during certain match ups. However, if I had to lump them into some kind of archetype, I would say that Doc is a character with strong finishers, edgeguarding, and methods of creating space (with an abysmal recovery) whereas Mario is your typical "jack of all trades; master of none" with his entire toolset ranging from slightly below average to slightly above average.

I think the reason why Doc has had more success in competitive play is because he is polarized. He tends to get more mileage out of single hits and situations which favor him, thus, making him easier to use.

However, this doesn't necessarily make him better because his polarization can work both ways. While he may have some match ups he wins (particularly against floaties such as Samus, Jiggs, and ICs) he also has some match ups in which he loses (Sheik, Marth, C. Falcon) however, Mario is so consistently average in every aspect that all of these match ups are close to even.

In other words, Mario is less exploitable at the price of requiring higher optimization which (potentially) makes him better than Doc.

With that said, anyone who plays one of these characters should just play both since they are probably the only two characters in the game you can seamlessly switch between regardless of your level of play. I feel like the advantages of playing them by match up is sorely missed by pro mario players.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

A lot of you two's posts is highly philosophical/theoretical. These minute differences add up to much more when you consider that every hit doc deals will hit harder and he has so much more ease in landing those hits. Doc will end up being rewarded more for the same play in the long run. And docs dsmash being stronger is hardly a minute change at all when its such a central aspect of their characters, and its not stronger by only a small amount either. When summed up nothing mario offers can compare to docs own combination of differences. Docs nair is better for both approach, trades, and utility, pills are stronger, edgegaurds are stronger grab game gaurantees more follow ups, chaingrabs harder, and uniquely to doc over mario provides free kills on all or nearly all characters. Core elements of the characters are stronger for doc, making everything else just a situational advantage (bar mario fsmash) making doc just better suited for their intended playstyle.

Of course some things mario is still capable of as long as he plays well such as killing, spacing, chaingrabbing, and edgegaurding, but mario has so much more room for error, has much more to lose if he fails to be on point, and even when hes perfect he misses out on several key doc advantages on his repertoire. Even his edgegaurding, the sole element mario has that comes close to effectiveness as docs, has more situations where it will fail or miss or perhaps hed need to land a couple more bairs off of reads to get the proper situation to set up for a cape, which doc will have much less trouble with. And finally, docs domination on the ground will keep him rooted on stage far more than mario will, and he has more tools to avoid being edgegaurded in his pills; a doc that dis high can be a pain to edgegaurd if he saves his jump due to pills. This alone helps doc fare better against his big 3 threats than mario will, and marios recovery is very similar to marths anyway, and if sheiks are still edgegaurding marth these days its not too farfetched to say that sheiks will still be gimping mario in the future, with or without up b shenanigans.

Of course, this doesnt rule out the fact that mario still might rise in potential with his great recovery mixups, but i dont forsee it to be enough to elevate him above doc anytime soon. We have yet to see wether or not pivot fsmash and up b cancel outweigh more gauranteed stuff everywhere including recovery in some situations, stronger neutral presence, and additional kill options not available to mario in even a few matchups. Only time can tell.

 

[KRBAY]

Notable placings: None
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Peach
Marth
Jigglypuff
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Doc
Samus
Ganon
Luigi
Young Link
Mario
Link
Yoshi
DK
Roy
Mewtwo
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Pichu
Ness
Kirby
Bowser