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2013 Community Tier List

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
I was talking about shielding on reaction rather than holding shield (which is totally illogical as a counter measure when camping; bringing it up feels like a strawman on your part). Regardless, if Roy can't do anything about top platform camping when he is down a stock (very likely) then I don't see how he can ever realistically do the "damage" you were talking about.

I also don't think you realize that the associated power with an action makes it more effective in neutral. Yeah, having a good dash dance, grab, wavedash, and poke move is helpful. However, it needs to be reinforced by moves that create meaningful and extended advantages. A frame perfect Sheik boost grab is faster and longer ranged than a Marth equivalent, but it becomes doubly threatening when an extended punish can follow it. Does Roy really have the moves to create threat to the opponent when he is behind and has to play at their pace?

To put it more bluntly, a Roy dashing forward or back is not even close to the same level as Marth. Especially when he is likely fighting a slew of characters that kill him or gimp him off one grab/clean hit (i.e. 90% of the cast)

Also, you were joking about Roy shielding to stop Samus bombs, right?
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
As this conversation has progressed I am agreeing that Roy has little to try pressing an advantage on platforms. The idea of 0-death is not acceptable in terms of being able to deny all options if you simply meet a situation where neither character can get an advantage.

I guess at this point there might not be much more to continue on about without rehashing the same main point and simply going through more examples to illustrate it. The general conclusion I have come to is that Roy cannot engage on platforms and expect to be positive on hit. Lack of KB causes people to land on platforms (not in tech chase situation) and the landing cancels hitstun.

The only resolute conclusion Roy can take I feel is to simply not go up there and deny people coming back down. That in of itself felt like a strength given the current metagame. Its rare to find someone that persistent to want to stay on the top platform the moment they get a stock advantage. This does not solve the problem of that being a route people can take. In terms of stages Its never a problem on FD/PS1 and less so on FoD/YI due to platform height. Though this is not much of a problem. Striking would result in playing on YI most likely. Roy strike DL/BF. Other player strike FoD/FD. Counterpicks of Roy would be platform mitigated stages.

That is an interesting point about the care of being punished. From what I think your getting at a person can pretty much not care about Roys dash and get a bit more brazen in committal moves. If Sheik tries to dash grab or dash attack and gets punished for it by either running into a Dtilt or dash back grab from Roy it matters little because you will get more attempts. At that point it matters upon how good people are at getting in on Roy in the first place.

Samus is a match-up I am not super familiar with. I have had more time playing against rare match-ups such as like Links, Mewtwo, Kirby, Luigi, Yoshi, etc. than with Samus. I was contemplating the idea of say dashing into morph ball with shield depending upon the situation. 10 frames of visual start-up before the hitbox is even active. Afterwards samus is in lag until frame 53 when used in the air? 46 if able to land on the ground into crouch. I would say 36 frames or 43 frames of lag I would say is well worth shielding and taking your 6 frames shield stun. There is plenty of leeway in all of this to be able to retaliate with SH Nair or maybe a grab if you are low enough for a shield to work.

Should the bomb explode on your shield while samus is nearby you are still shielding to protect against say the possibility of a Nair or UpB which are things you cannot really react to with a frame 2 interrupt from the bomb. However, even if those moves are used they are laggy enough on landing (UpB) or activate the hitbox on shield in the air (Nair) that you can punish them. Unless there is something more I have not considered then shield seems an adequate response.

I guess there is the idea of bomb and move onto a platform, but that is not really something you can even bother shielding anyway if Roy is on the ground and not related to me joking or not about using shield. If it really is all that laughable of a possible solution what are you considering that I have not said?
 
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kingPiano

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
574
As this conversation has progressed I am agreeing that Roy has little to try pressing an advantage on platforms. The idea of 0-death is not acceptable in terms of being able to deny all options if you simply meet a situation where neither character can get an advantage.

I guess at this point there might not be much more to continue on about without rehashing the same main point and simply going through more examples to illustrate it. The general conclusion I have come to is that Roy cannot engage on platforms and expect to be positive on hit. Lack of KB causes people to land on platforms (not in tech chase situation) and the landing cancels hitstun.

The only resolute conclusion Roy can take I feel is to simply not go up there and deny people coming back down. That in of itself felt like a strength given the current metagame. Its rare to find someone that persistent to want to stay on the top platform the moment they get a stock advantage. This does not solve the problem of that being a route people can take. In terms of stages Its never a problem on FD/PS1 and less so on FoD/YI due to platform height. Though this is not much of a problem. Striking would result in playing on YI most likely. Roy strike DL/BF. Other player strike FoD/FD. Counterpicks of Roy would be platform mitigated stages.

That is an interesting point about the care of being punished. From what I think your getting at a person can pretty much not care about Roys dash and get a bit more brazen in committal moves. If Sheik tries to dash grab or dash attack and gets punished for it by either running into a Dtilt or dash back grab from Roy it matters little because you will get more attempts. At that point it matters upon how good people are at getting in on Roy in the first place.

Samus is a match-up I am not super familiar with. I have had more time playing against rare match-ups such as like Links, Mewtwo, Kirby, Luigi, Yoshi, etc. than with Samus. I was contemplating the idea of say dashing into morph ball with shield depending upon the situation. 10 frames of visual start-up before the hitbox is even active. Afterwards samus is in lag until frame 53 when used in the air? 46 if able to land on the ground into crouch. I would say 36 frames or 43 frames of lag I would say is well worth shielding and taking your 6 frames shield stun. There is plenty of leeway in all of this to be able to retaliate with SH Nair or maybe a grab if you are low enough for a shield to work.

Should the bomb explode on your shield while samus is nearby you are still shielding to protect against say the possibility of a Nair or UpB which are things you cannot really react to with a frame 2 interrupt from the bomb. However, even if those moves are used they are laggy enough on landing (UpB) or activate the hitbox on shield in the air (Nair) that you can punish them. Unless there is something more I have not considered then shield seems an adequate response.

I guess there is the idea of bomb and move onto a platform, but that is not really something you can even bother shielding anyway if Roy is on the ground and not related to me joking or not about using shield. If it really is all that laughable of a possible solution what are you considering that I have not said?

In general when making an argument for Roy it's a bad idea to use Samus as an example. Her weight and floatiness are the worst for Roy to deal with, not to mention her OoS Up-B and fatal CC game. Whenever I use Roy it's definitely never when I'm about to face a Samus (in fact that is literally his worst MUs imo). He's got stuff on Fast Fallers and they can be quite easy once you get in, but he does have major issues with floaties which is a symptom of all mid-low tiers.
 
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1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Should the bomb explode on your shield while samus is nearby you are still shielding to protect against say the possibility of a Nair or UpB which are things you cannot really react to with a frame 2 interrupt from the bomb. However, even if those moves are used they are laggy enough on landing (UpB) or activate the hitbox on shield in the air (Nair) that you can punish them. Unless there is something more I have not considered then shield seems an adequate response.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAx59gyYB-g

Granted, Darrell is probably the only Samus I have seen pull off some bomb pressure in a real match (most Samus players just do Bomb>Dair), but the fact remains that shielding against a bomb isn't a good maneuver.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAx59gyYB-g

Granted, Darrell is probably the only Samus I have seen pull off some bomb pressure in a real match (most Samus players just do Bomb>Dair), but the fact remains that shielding against a bomb isn't a good maneuver.
That's pretty cool application of all of those mechanics at work. From what I can tell in the video and debug mode they do the following:
Frame 0 - DownB input on the ground
Frame 1-9 start-up lag
Frame 10 - Explosion - Fox shieldlag
Frame 11 - Jump input - Fox shieldlag
Frame 12 - Jump (Start Airdodge down input) - Fox shield stun
Frame 13 - Airdodge down - Fox shield stun
Frame 14 - Airdodge down - Fox shield stun
Frame 17 - Hit the ground - Fox shield stun
Frame 18 - airdodge landing lag - Fox shield stun
Frame 19 - airdodge landing lag - Fox shield stun (Can start input for any OoS option now)
Frame 20 - airdodge landing lag - Fox's action would take place here on this frame
Frame 21 - airdodge landing lag -
Frame 22 - airdodge landing lag -
Frame 23 - airdodge landing lag -
Frame 24 - airdodge landing lag -
Frame 25 - airdodge landing lag -
Frame 26 - airdodge landing lag (Can start input for anything now) -
Frame 27 - Samus's action can take place now.
So, Frame 27-36 DownB start-up lag
Frame 37 - DownB hitbox out
Several things tell me that this is not really a viable option to use against a shielding opponent. Ignoring the technical difficulty to do this frame perfect its a 17 frame disadvantage for Samus anyway. You could save 10 frames disadvantage by replacing Bomb with some other input. However, that is even in the most optimal conditions of using DownB on the ground level to minimize time for the airdodge into the ground. 7 frames is enough to grab anyway on the front of the shield.

The situation we outlined earlier which even mentioned bomb was as a stalling method in the air and Roy trying to shield it if low enough to the ground. Which means that Samus has more air to traverse tacking on more frames of disadvantage to the airdodge down bit before finally getting through to the airdodge landing lag. Extend that minimum 7 frames disadvantage to say 7-11 frames (simply from a couple quick tests at various heights) if all you did was Bomb -> airdodge. Plus, whatever is left for a human probably being like 1-2 frames off possibly on different input transitions.

I think its more believable to think that you would bomb and wavedash back rather than trying to attack someone's shield. So, it still seems as if shield is a very viable option still to getting rid of the bomb, counter potential retaliation, and get some stage control since Samus likely used bomb in retreating from Roy (as what started this whole thing of bomb to stall follow-ups from Roy).

Still that is really cool bomb application and why I like these kind of discussions. You learn so much about different stuff you might not have tried knowing about otherwise.

I general when making an argument for Roy it's a bad idea to use Samus as an example. Her weight and floatiness are the worst for Roy to deal with, not to mention her OoS Up-B and fatal CC game. Whenever I use Roy it's definitely never when I'm about to face a Samus (in fact that is literally his worst MUs imo). He's got stuff on Fast Fallers and they can be quite easy once you get in, but he does have major issues with floaties which is a symptom of all mid-low tiers.
I sort of outlined this idea earlier on why I find fast faller or floaty traits both being "fine" for Roy.

Fast fallers will get knocked away less allowing him to follow-up safely with the strong hit of his sword. Dtilt -> strong Uair -> regrab is easily a thing on Falcon, Fox, Sheik, and Falco near low percents. If not, simply replace Dtilt with Grab tech chase until a percentage to Uthrow into strong Uair regrab. Despite most of his moveset not having enough hitstun/KB he does indeed get enough hitstun on several moves such as throw, Dtilt, or strong Bair/Nair/Uair to void direct retaliation.

Floaty characters are not simply combo'd while in hitstun. Roy's moves will knock them away further at lower percents preventing direct follow-ups, but they get hit up high enough to avoid being able to retaliate against Roy directly. We already did this exercise with Samus at 50% where Roy doing a tip of the blade Uair is safe against any ideas of retaliation directly. Thus, this means that Roy simply tries to beat out whatever the falling character is trying to do to land. Whether it be using his fast ground speed or disjoint.

The funny thing with the KB formula is lighter characters suffer more hitstun and knockback. Plus, floaty characters cannot resist the initial launch velocity on moves. In short, fast fallers will suffer guaranteed combos on Roy, but makes more of his moveset unusable until higher percents. Floaty characters will not suffer guaranteed combos, but give Roy more options at lower percents.
 
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kingPiano

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
574
couldn't you just crouch cancel the bomb?
Well you could, but then Samus can dair or nair > Dsmash, Up-B, or Dtilt

The bomb seems to be partially immune to CC (idk if it's because of the fire effect or the explosion), so depending on weight if can still leave you open to some combo or multiple bombs if CC'ed. You could buffer a roll out of it, but when I used to play Samus I would look for that reaction and follow up.
 
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1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
That's pretty cool application of all of those mechanics at work. From what I can tell in the video and debug mode they do the following:
Frame 0 - DownB input on the ground
Frame 1-9 start-up lag
Frame 10 - Explosion - Fox shieldlag
Frame 11 - Jump input - Fox shieldlag
Frame 12 - Jump (Start Airdodge down input) - Fox shield stun
Frame 13 - Airdodge down - Fox shield stun
Frame 14 - Airdodge down - Fox shield stun
Frame 17 - Hit the ground - Fox shield stun
Frame 18 - airdodge landing lag - Fox shield stun
Frame 19 - airdodge landing lag - Fox shield stun (Can start input for any OoS option now)
Frame 20 - airdodge landing lag - Fox's action would take place here on this frame
Frame 21 - airdodge landing lag -
Frame 22 - airdodge landing lag -
Frame 23 - airdodge landing lag -
Frame 24 - airdodge landing lag -
Frame 25 - airdodge landing lag -
Frame 26 - airdodge landing lag (Can start input for anything now) -
Frame 27 - Samus's action can take place now.
So, Frame 27-36 DownB start-up lag
Frame 37 - DownB hitbox out
Several things tell me that this is not really a viable option to use against a shielding opponent. Ignoring the technical difficulty to do this frame perfect its a 17 frame disadvantage for Samus anyway. You could save 10 frames disadvantage by replacing Bomb with some other input. However, that is even in the most optimal conditions of using DownB on the ground level to minimize time for the airdodge into the ground. 7 frames is enough to grab anyway on the front of the shield.

The situation we outlined earlier which even mentioned bomb was as a stalling method in the air and Roy trying to shield it if low enough to the ground. Which means that Samus has more air to traverse tacking on more frames of disadvantage to the airdodge down bit before finally getting through to the airdodge landing lag. Extend that minimum 7 frames disadvantage to say 7-11 frames (simply from a couple quick tests at various heights) if all you did was Bomb -> airdodge. Plus, whatever is left for a human probably being like 1-2 frames off possibly on different input transitions.

I think its more believable to think that you would bomb and wavedash back rather than trying to attack someone's shield. So, it still seems as if shield is a very viable option still to getting rid of the bomb, counter potential retaliation, and get some stage control since Samus likely used bomb in retreating from Roy (as what started this whole thing of bomb to stall follow-ups from Roy).

Still that is really cool bomb application and why I like these kind of discussions. You learn so much about different stuff you might not have tried knowing about otherwise.
If Samus can force her way on stage with air dodge (probably after drifting behind Roy using explosion momentum), I don't see how he is able to punish her since he has committed to OoS options.

I think the main thing to take away from this is that Samus gets options from bombing shield. Whether it be using the explosion to force her way onstage, to pressure with dair, or to drift away.
 

the muted smasher

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
409
I really think You'd be hard pressed to find someone with as many unwinnable match-ups as roy when start to look at peach, samus, ics and come really close to unwinnable luigi, puff, gannon, m2 (ripple).

I mean bowser kirby pichu and ness are pretty bad but lord bowser is only trash trashed by peach ics sheik. He still has at least an amazing role on ys with with real answers and mix ups. And kirby has things vs non fox and pichu fundmental ly is better than roy at what people say roy is good for dd/solid way to grab (nair grab that beats out foxes nair and has frame advantage and can be spaced to avoid shine oos)

I can't speak for ness but really roy is just to easy to pick apart and leave with nothing.
 

Callinater

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
Messages
17
Honestly, the only problem with these tier lists aren't the rankings but the tiers themselves.

Since when has A been known as a mid tier rank?
B tier is too large.
B to F feels odd.

I think there should be more tiers, and B tier should definitely be split. S tier suggests top tier, yet 8 out of 26 slots seems like a pretty long top tier huh?

Here's how I would rank them.

S - 1 - 3
A - 4 - 6
A- - 7-10
B - 11- 15
B- - 16-17
C - 18-20
D - 21-24
F - 25-26
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Sheik most definitely belongs in the same tier as Marth and spacies. Then I'd probably put puff and peach in their own tier after that.
 
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