2013 Community Tier List

[MTL Kyle]

Thank goodness Ness is bad. Awful, disgusting character who should have never been put in any game.

@ MTL Kyle This is the section of the site that reveals how active players are in the community.
http://smashboards.com/rankings/mtl-kyle.262909/user?id=2

Why you hating on Ness ? LOL

To be fair, I wouldn't have any ranking points if it wasn't for other people having the initiative on posting this kind of thing.
Sometimes you just wish there was more money in Melee so people would come up with better databases of stuff.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What is wrong with the smashboards database? Just curious, because it is a considerable improvement over the SSBPD.

 

[MTL Kyle]

What is wrong with the smashboards database? Just curious, because it is a considerable improvement over the SSBPD.

There is nothing wrong, although it could have some other cool features, like head to head, total prize money collected.
With that said, it's too much work and I think smashboards work well as just a forum.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I wonder if Roy could cause more damage than has currently been done simply by not having a refined enough player to try it out.

I think this mainly because he has very similar traits to Marth. From the Doc, I think we have finally seen someone bring out a very good approach to playing several match-ups that is not combo based. It has always been known the 0-death potential Marth has on every character. Said approach is staying grounded overall rather than going airborne. In this regard, Roy has several attributes that allow him to almost match Marth.

Roy's dash is slower than Marth, Fox, Sheik, and CF. But, as a low tier this is good enough when it beats out all the rest (other than pikachu). The grabs from either character achieve pretty much the same result. It puts characters into a bad spot despite not always getting a in-hitstun follow-up. Not to mention that the range and frame stuff are very identical. The only downside is Roy really has no taking space move to match Marth's Dtilt.

Other than this I think he might have the ability to 0-death several lower tier match-ups simply because he has a sword and disjoint. Which is pretty much the main premise of Marth. Many characters will have an option to use an aerial, but they cannot beat out Marth's sword in the air after being launched. However, I am not sure of the full potential for Roy to do this as well.

His hitstun is pretty atrocious at lower percents.

 

[keymanb]

Why you hating on Ness ? LOL

To be fair, I wouldn't have any ranking points if it wasn't for other people having the initiative on posting this kind of thing.
Sometimes you just wish there was more money in Melee so people would come up with better databases of stuff.

How could anyone hate on ness? His range is harrowing in melee.

 

[MTL Kyle]

I wonder if Roy could cause more damage than has currently been done simply by not having a refined enough player to try it out.

Probably.
But I feel a lot of the character is losing to himself.


I seriously can't see someone wanting to compete and play pretty much the botched version of a top tier character.
I get that people play for different reasons, but that is just masochism LOL

 

[atara]

Roy is so broken though. Maybe if you're some sort of alien who can see hitboxes instead of the actual sprites on the screen you'd see Roy as being a mid-high tier but as long as his sword isn't actually where his hitbox is it's going to be hard for a human being to play him. That dash attack...

 

[EddyBearr]

I don't think it's that hard to play as Roy and use his hitboxes effectively, but he's still bottom tier even when doing that. His biggest problem imo is his defense.

 

[MTL Kyle]

I don't think it's that hard to play as Roy and use his hitboxes effectively, but he's still bottom tier even when doing that. His biggest problem imo is his defense.

Roy has many possibilities.
Many possibilities on killing himself while trying to combo.

 

[keymanb]

Roy has many possibilities.
Many possibilities on killing himself while trying to combo.

Roy doesn't actually have too much of a problem comboing, he has a damn issue with KOing. He actually has an INCREDIBLE shffl. And survives better than marth. He does have pretty bad defense.

 

[EddyBearr]

Roy doesn't actually have too much of a problem comboing, he has a damn issue with KOing. He actually has an INCREDIBLE shffl. And survives better than marth. He does have pretty bad defense.

Roy's shffl is awful because of crouch-cancelling, and he definitely doesn't survive better than Marth. Roy can kind of combo but it can easily be turned around on him, so I usually don't think Roy should go mad with combos -- I think Roy should play kinda like a Samus that has no good defense (lol) but high burst potential.

 

[keymanb]

Roy's shffl is awful because of crouch-cancelling, and he definitely doesn't survive better than Marth. Roy can kind of combo but it can easily be turned around on him, so I usually don't think Roy should go mad with combos -- I think Roy should play kinda like a Samus that has no good defense (lol) but high burst potential.

How so, I know roy has problems KOing, but I'm quite sure his SHFFL is pretty good, maybe I was over exaggerating but I know it's good.

 

[keymanb]

But does anybody think ganondorf will be lowered? I mean I know he's been decreasing from the early days, but I really think he's a solid character, and I don't even play him in melee.

 

[kingPiano]

But does anybody think ganondorf will be lowered? I mean I know he's been decreasing from the early days, but I really think he's a solid character, and I don't even play him in melee.

No I think most high level players agree that he belongs where he is now, maybe a few spots -1, -2 but nothing significant. He still performs consistently and has tools to take on top tiers.

As Far as Roy's SHFFL, it used to be considered the best in the game. But what hurts his SHFFL are his aerials, the are not good at all. So while he has an optimal Fast Fall, SH, jump height, air mobility, and air time.....all that matters is what he can do during the SHFFL and none of it is impressive enough. Almost all of his aerials besides 2nd hit Nair and strong Uair can be CC'ed into VERY high percents and punished easily, this kills his SHFFL further.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Roy doesn't actually have too much of a problem comboing, he has a damn issue with KOing. He actually has an INCREDIBLE shffl. And survives better than marth. He does have pretty bad defense.

In terms of pure hitstun Roy has a TON of issues. Hitting people even in the air can often times be negative hitstun advantage allowing people to say Nair him back. His ability to inflict hitstun is rather poor. Despite that fact I think Roy can make up for this by simply using disjoint. Marth can directly challenge anyone directly above him due to disjoint and stun. Roy can try to Uair someone and end up getting hit by a Nair anyway. To get around this I think he needs to hit people at angles where despite not being in stun he cannot be retaliated against by using his disjoint and ground speed.

Feels weird to think of shffl to be something which can be good or bad. Its merely something you do. The key traits are built into are the characters attributes good sync with this action.

Roy's shffl is awful because of crouch-cancelling, and he definitely doesn't survive better than Marth. Roy can kind of combo but it can easily be turned around on him, so I usually don't think Roy should go mad with combos -- I think Roy should play kinda like a Samus that has no good defense (lol) but high burst potential.

My idea is Roy play more as marth. Stay grounded as much as possible using Dtilt/Grab. You have no reason to use aerials on grounded targets as Roy. Peach can float cancel fair which is hard to punish period. Fox/Falco have many abilities with aerial/shine or aerial/grab. Marth/Roy have little benefit to be gained from attacking someone who is grounded with aerials. Aerials should be used to hit aerial targets mainly for them it feels.

 

[CrankyBomb]

S: Falco, Fox, Jigglypuff, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Ice Climbers, C. Falcon
A: Dr. Mario, Samus, Luigi, Pikachu, Mario, Ganondorf, Yoshi
B: Young Link, Link, Donkey Kong, Game & Watch, Roy, Mewtwo
F: Ness, Pichu, Bowser, Zelda, Kirby​

Tier Name Translations
S- Top Tier, Viable. All characters in this range are viable for competing.
A- Mid Tier, Semi-Viable. These characters have been shown by their dedicated players to have the tools to compete, though it is apparent that they are slightly disadvantaged.
B- Low Tier, Probably Not Viable. Some players have done well with these characters in specific match-ups, but for the most part they aren't viable for winning tournaments.
F- Bottom Tier, Not Viable

 

[1MachGO]

My idea is Roy play more as marth. Stay grounded as much as possible using Dtilt/Grab. You have no reason to use aerials on grounded targets as Roy. Peach can float cancel fair which is hard to punish period. Fox/Falco have many abilities with aerial/shine or aerial/grab. Marth/Roy have little benefit to be gained from attacking someone who is grounded with aerials. Aerials should be used to hit aerial targets mainly for them it feels.

Sadly, I don't see Roy having any legitimate options vs. non-fast fallers. Against characters like Peach or Samus, Dtilt gives him nothing other than setting up for fruitless juggles and worthless aerials. His throws give him some positional advantage but they hardly compliment his tipper system like they do for Marth. I suppose he could cling to his disjoint and ground movement, but we are talking about a battle of attrition and persistence that would be exhausting to perform for even high level players. Not to mention this character has zero answers to top platform camping.

As far as undervalued low tiers go, I'd wager Mewtwo, Ness, and Game & Watch are the only characters that deserve another look. Especially since their shortcomings primarily exist on the defense which feels less important than good mobility, combos, and spacing tools as the meta progresses.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Sadly, I don't see Roy having any legitimate options vs. non-fast fallers. Against characters like Peach or Samus, Dtilt gives him nothing other than setting up for fruitless juggles and worthless aerials. His throws give him some positional advantage but they hardly compliment his tipper system like they do for Marth. I suppose he could cling to his disjoint and ground movement, but we are talking about a battle of attrition and persistence that would be exhausting to perform for even high level players. Not to mention this character has zero answers to top platform camping.

The strategy with Marth I think is equally applicable to Roy. Marth very clearly has an advantage on even floaty characters simply because they can never get back down to the ground. He outranges their aerials and puts them back up there with each swing of his sword.

Roy's hitbox sizes and frame data is nearly identical to Marth. I think Roy's range is a tad lower, but its enough disjoint still to beat out pretty much every aerial option a character has in this game. Plus, there is 2/3 frames more landing lag on Roy than Marth in UAir/Fair. Though I think this can be offset given Roy's drastically reduced air time from being a fast faller.

A key issue is the damage output is pretty piss poor. Roy's Uair/Fair tip of the sword is 5/6 percent while Marth's is 13 percent. Clearly, Marth can swing less often and build up more percent. Less swings less room for error and more easily knocked away.

Anyway, I think the core idea of using' Roy's aerials to continually keep a floaty in a bad spot still applies. The key difference with Roy is that he has to swing far more often to rack up enough percent to put someone offstage. However, I believe he can still deny floaty characters the ability to ever make it back to the stage. This key factor is why Marth can 0-death the entire cast without ever needing them to be in 100% hitstun the entire time. Roy should be able to accomplish this I think, but the player has to maintain a high level of efficiency and precision to pull this off. Otherwise, it is as you say and eventually a mistake is made that leads to 0%-death against him.

I think the two things a character needs to be good is the ability to punish the entire cast and tools necessary to gain an advantage over other character's tools in several settings such as neutral. Roy already has several traits Marth does in terms of trying to take neutral when ground based. Marth already easily has the traits to do such things in ground speeds, wave dash, dash dancing, and grab. The only thing Marth has over Roy is a better Dtilt for combating several characters. After this comes the ability to punish heavily and Roy does this through continually denying opponents back to the stage, but nearly twice as much as Marth does due to % on attacks.

Anyway, I think Roy might not be bad because he cannot combo people or figure out a way to get an advantage. It seems more likely to me that Roy is bad because he requires a huge effort on the player's part to be able to consistently play a pretty dang near perfect match. Marth can get it easy by sometimes getting easy KO's or having to swing say 10 times and not 20 times in a match. If there could be an incredibly talented player to do this Roy should have enough tools to combat all characters in the game. Something I think cannot be said for Zelda or Bowser who do not have enough traits to combat the upper tier characters in this game.

So, Zelda/Pichu I think can never circumvent many match-ups advantages while Roy I think has the potential to go give just about any character a hard time.

 

[keymanb]

No I think most high level players agree that he belongs where he is now, maybe a few spots -1, -2 but nothing significant. He still performs consistently and has tools to take on top tiers.

As Far as Roy's SHFFL, it used to be considered the best in the game. But what hurts his SHFFL are his aerials, the are not good at all. So while he has an optimal Fast Fall, SH, jump height, air mobility, and air time.....all that matters is what he can do during the SHFFL and none of it is impressive enough. Almost all of his aerials besides 2nd hit Nair and strong Uair can be CC'ed into VERY high percents and punished easily, this kills his SHFFL further.

I agree

In terms of pure hitstun Roy has a TON of issues. Hitting people even in the air can often times be negative hitstun advantage allowing people to say Nair him back. His ability to inflict hitstun is rather poor. Despite that fact I think Roy can make up for this by simply using disjoint. Marth can directly challenge anyone directly above him due to disjoint and stun. Roy can try to Uair someone and end up getting hit by a Nair anyway. To get around this I think he needs to hit people at angles where despite not being in stun he cannot be retaliated against by using his disjoint and ground speed.

Feels weird to think of shffl to be something which can be good or bad. Its merely something you do. The key traits are built into are the characters attributes good sync with this action.


My idea is Roy play more as marth. Stay grounded as much as possible using Dtilt/Grab. You have no reason to use aerials on grounded targets as Roy. Peach can float cancel fair which is hard to punish period. Fox/Falco have many abilities with aerial/shine or aerial/grab. Marth/Roy have little benefit to be gained from attacking someone who is grounded with aerials. Aerials should be used to hit aerial targets mainly for them it feels.

Mhm.

 

[keymanb]

So, does anybody know when the 2015 tier list will be coming out? Or any estimates?

 

[kingPiano]

The strategy with Marth I think is equally applicable to Roy. Marth very clearly has an advantage on even floaty characters simply because they can never get back down to the ground. He outranges their aerials and puts them back up there with each swing of his sword.

Roy's hitbox sizes and frame data is nearly identical to Marth. I think Roy's range is a tad lower, but its enough disjoint still to beat out pretty much every aerial option a character has in this game. Plus, there is 2/3 frames more landing lag on Roy than Marth in UAir/Fair. Though I think this can be offset given Roy's drastically reduced air time from being a fast faller.

A key issue is the damage output is pretty piss poor. Roy's Uair/Fair tip of the sword is 5/6 percent while Marth's is 13 percent. Clearly, Marth can swing less often and build up more percent. Less swings less room for error and more easily knocked away.

Anyway, I think the core idea of using' Roy's aerials to continually keep a floaty in a bad spot still applies. The key difference with Roy is that he has to swing far more often to rack up enough percent to put someone offstage. However, I believe he can still deny floaty characters the ability to ever make it back to the stage. This key factor is why Marth can 0-death the entire cast without ever needing them to be in 100% hitstun the entire time. Roy should be able to accomplish this I think, but the player has to maintain a high level of efficiency and precision to pull this off. Otherwise, it is as you say and eventually a mistake is made that leads to 0%-death against him.

I think the two things a character needs to be good is the ability to punish the entire cast and tools necessary to gain an advantage over other character's tools in several settings such as neutral. Roy already has several traits Marth does in terms of trying to take neutral when ground based. Marth already easily has the traits to do such things in ground speeds, wave dash, dash dancing, and grab. The only thing Marth has over Roy is a better Dtilt for combating several characters. After this comes the ability to punish heavily and Roy does this through continually denying opponents back to the stage, but nearly twice as much as Marth does due to % on attacks.

Anyway, I think Roy might not be bad because he cannot combo people or figure out a way to get an advantage. It seems more likely to me that Roy is bad because he requires a huge effort on the player's part to be able to consistently play a pretty dang near perfect match. Marth can get it easy by sometimes getting easy KO's or having to swing say 10 times and not 20 times in a match. If there could be an incredibly talented player to do this Roy should have enough tools to combat all characters in the game. Something I think cannot be said for Zelda or Bowser who do not have enough traits to combat the upper tier characters in this game.

So, Zelda/Pichu I think can never circumvent many match-ups advantages while Roy I think has the potential to go give just about any character a hard time.

I agree about the matchups and Pichu/Zelda and I think Bowser/Pichu have laughable chances compared to even Kirby and especially Roy. But I do find it odd how you are comparing Marth and Roy. I get the sentiment but the damage, hitstun, and ranging in the air is so very very different.

With Roy unforetunately you have to approach from the ground since alll of his aerials allow for easy retaliation in the air or ground (especially if CC'ed). The only really safe aerials Roy has are Flare Blade, 2nd Nair, and Uair (low-mid percents and up) and none are fast enough to break combos.

I've played Roy as a secondary for A LONG time and I've only been playing Kirby for about 3 months and withtt hat limited I'm already finding that I have a MUCH MUCH easier time "getting in" from the air and challenging an opponent in the air (even with the terrible mobility Kirby has). For Roy it really just is DED, D-tilt, F-smash, GRAB A LOT, and Nair and Uair once it's safe. It's a lot of hard reads but these moves, his grab range, and movement are so good he stilll is able to be in middle low tier with cruddy aerials.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

So, does anybody know when the 2015 tier list will be coming out? Or any estimates?

Was there any indication such a thing was going to happen?

I agree about the matchups and Pichu/Zelda and I think Bowser/Pichu have laughable chances compared to even Kirby and especially Roy. But I do find it odd how you are comparing Marth and Roy. I get the sentiment but the damage, hitstun, and ranging in the air is so very very different.

With Roy unforetunately you have to approach from the ground since alll of his aerials allow for easy retaliation in the air or ground (especially if CC'ed). The only really safe aerials Roy has are Flare Blade, 2nd Nair, and Uair (low-mid percents and up) and none are fast enough to break combos.

I've played Roy as a secondary for A LONG time and I've only been playing Kirby for about 3 months and withtt hat limited I'm already finding that I have a MUCH MUCH easier time "getting in" from the air and challenging an opponent in the air (even with the terrible mobility Kirby has). For Roy it really just is DED, D-tilt, F-smash, GRAB A LOT, and Nair and Uair once it's safe. It's a lot of hard reads but these moves, his grab range, and movement are so good he stilll is able to be in middle low tier with cruddy aerials.

While I make all this stuff of Roy/Marth somethings will be different in execution. I think the ground play of marth/roy should be virtually identical for the most part in execution and general considerations. The Dtilt thing might be more damaging than I think, but not sure.

The punishes and what you can expect to work on punishes will be different for each. The main strategy as far as punishes go I think remains the same, but different in execution. Roy really wants to try minimizing the need to have to use a rising aerial. A rising aerial is more air time and eats at away at the advantages he can get on the stun time. Falling an aerial is more productive. Combine this with spacing on the weak part of the sword and Roy should almost never get retaliated against. Your opponent will often come out of hitstun, but you will be out of the way and grounded with them in the air still.

Platform play I am not certain how to get around as of now. In tech chasing situations I think you want to actually go for full hop aerials and aim for the strong part of the blade. Doing this causes the full hop to minimize air time by landing on the platform, but the extra strength of the strong part gives enough stun allow Roy to come out of lag before retaliation can occur. At least at high enough percents where you can launch them sufficiently high. But yeah, I am going to have to play Roy some more and look at several of these situations to see if Roy has a reasonable counter to several scenarios. I am more concerned with the launch resistance of fast fallers compared to floaty characters.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hey guys, in case you haven't seen, voting for the 2015 community tier list has started. Feel free to carry on discussion in either thread

http://smashboards.com/threads/2015-community-tier-list-voting.404738/

 

[1MachGO]

The strategy with Marth I think is equally applicable to Roy. Marth very clearly has an advantage on even floaty characters simply because they can never get back down to the ground. He outranges their aerials and puts them back up there with each swing of his sword.

Roy's hitbox sizes and frame data is nearly identical to Marth. I think Roy's range is a tad lower, but its enough disjoint still to beat out pretty much every aerial option a character has in this game. Plus, there is 2/3 frames more landing lag on Roy than Marth in UAir/Fair. Though I think this can be offset given Roy's drastically reduced air time from being a fast faller.

A key issue is the damage output is pretty piss poor. Roy's Uair/Fair tip of the sword is 5/6 percent while Marth's is 13 percent. Clearly, Marth can swing less often and build up more percent. Less swings less room for error and more easily knocked away.

Anyway, I think the core idea of using' Roy's aerials to continually keep a floaty in a bad spot still applies. The key difference with Roy is that he has to swing far more often to rack up enough percent to put someone offstage. However, I believe he can still deny floaty characters the ability to ever make it back to the stage. This key factor is why Marth can 0-death the entire cast without ever needing them to be in 100% hitstun the entire time. Roy should be able to accomplish this I think, but the player has to maintain a high level of efficiency and precision to pull this off. Otherwise, it is as you say and eventually a mistake is made that leads to 0%-death against him.

I think the two things a character needs to be good is the ability to punish the entire cast and tools necessary to gain an advantage over other character's tools in several settings such as neutral. Roy already has several traits Marth does in terms of trying to take neutral when ground based. Marth already easily has the traits to do such things in ground speeds, wave dash, dash dancing, and grab. The only thing Marth has over Roy is a better Dtilt for combating several characters. After this comes the ability to punish heavily and Roy does this through continually denying opponents back to the stage, but nearly twice as much as Marth does due to % on attacks.

Anyway, I think Roy might not be bad because he cannot combo people or figure out a way to get an advantage. It seems more likely to me that Roy is bad because he requires a huge effort on the player's part to be able to consistently play a pretty dang near perfect match. Marth can get it easy by sometimes getting easy KO's or having to swing say 10 times and not 20 times in a match. If there could be an incredibly talented player to do this Roy should have enough tools to combat all characters in the game. Something I think cannot be said for Zelda or Bowser who do not have enough traits to combat the upper tier characters in this game.

So, Zelda/Pichu I think can never circumvent many match-ups advantages while Roy I think has the potential to go give just about any character a hard time.

I think I understand your perspective, but I am not so sure if I am on board with your conclusions. For instance, I agree that getting an advantage in neutral is an important quality for a character, but I think "not getting camped" is one of the first boxes that needs to get checked. I honestly wonder if Roy has any good answer to top platform camping. He is more or less forced to go into the air.

Speaking of the air, I don't really buy into the idea that Roy essentially has to do "more aerials". I'm not sure if you've looked at actual numbers (like, not just percent, but BKB, KBG, total KB, etc.), but Marth's sourspot aerial hitboxes, on average, do more knockback (and thus, hitstun) than Roy's sweetspot.

Without going into specifics, Roy's tipper hitbox on all of his directional aerials (so excluding nair) are about on par with the average jab, whilst his non-tipper ones are about on par with the below average tilt. This isn't even considering the lack of percent his sweetspots do (about 8-9 on average) which is still lower than Marth's un-sweetspotted average. To give you some more concrete data, Marth's sweet spotted uair will have 38 frames of hitstun on a Samus at 50%; Roy's won't even reach that amount with his sweet spot uair at 100%. We aren't talking about just twice the hits here, either. We could be talking about 2.5 times the amount of hits with no natural way to string multiple ones together.

This is why I think Roy has little to no chance against heavy floaties like Samus or Peach. He has situations where he can produce an advantage, yes, but he has just as many situations where he literally cannot maintain said advantage because his attacks are too weak. Having a disjoint is great, but its pretty pointless if your opponent can just tank the hit and punish you with twice the damage. Suggesting Roy's "edge guarding" is good against these types of characters (which, lets me real, is basically just neutral b, fsmash, and tipper dsmash without Marth's dtilt, offstage game, or dair) is also questionable.

So I'm not so sure if its fair to say Roy is capable of combating every character in the game. Especially when you consider how the advantages you are arguing for hold up against someone like Marth. I mean, its basically a Marth ditto where one Marth is playing with a handicap. Roy might have some obscure things like dthrow combos, but he is literally out punished, out maneuvered, and even out ranged. He theoretically has no chance in this MU. This is before even considering other serious problem characters, such as Sheik, Doc/Mario, and Ganon (who can all CC, zero death CG, and obliterate his recovery), the heavy floaties I already mentioned, or other characters where he can create literally no advantage through the shortcomings of his attacks (How will he stop Yoshi armor and the onslaught of CC dtilt? How will he separate and kill nana before he is solo CG'd by Popo and subsequently wobbled?)

Again, Roy has passable MUs against fast fallers and that's probably it outside of the worst of low tier.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Not certain about the idea of exclusively evasive play. Most characters lack exceptional mobility and effective projectiles to reliably pull it off I feel. It is also not practiced as much from what I can tell. I am not certain how important it actually is compared to other things.

What exactly is the point about the information on aerials? I feel you simply rehashed what I said before unless you are trying to make a different point. Roy does less percent per hit than Marth. The less knockback as well means more % is needed to eventually force people offstage. This all means Roy in general has to land more hits than Marth does. Which leads to more potential for errors on the players part. That was sort of my main point of this area of discussion.

The bit with being able to maintain the advantage has varying degrees to it. If a character can always keep someone in hitstun, then this is the best kind. If not, then the next best thing is entering an advantage where you have more options than our opponent. Can Roy always do this? I am not fully certain. There are too many scenarios to consider.

Considering the Uair example you gave with Marth/Roy on Samus. At 50% with Roy's non-tipper Uair he gets 17 frames of hitstun on Samus. This is still enough of a positive advantage on hit. -9 for L-canceling, then whatever else is gained by the air time that Samus/Peach get from being launched upwards before being able to physically reach Roy. This is why I mentioned why it was important to have Roy do falling aerials over rising. Rising loses Roy frame advantage by giving him more hang time in the air before ending lag through L-canceling.

Edgeguarding should really be denying someone the ability to gaining more parts of the stage. Neither Peach nor Samus particularly want to be at hanging at the ledge nor in the air. If they are routinely knocked away again and again for being in a poor position, then they will die eventually even if it has to be at 250%. Marth gets more leeway in the match-ups and more options. I think Roy can have enough options to combat several scenarios and deny them getting stage control. If Roy's best response to a situation (say Peach/Samus get wavedash from the ledge) is grab into pummel -> Fthrow them back offstage again so be it. Even if this has to repeat 5-6 more times before finally a fair -> edgehog. So be it.

Samus/Peach will live for a long time due to simply having the ability to get back to the stage from even far out. However, this does not mean that they are out of a poor situation against Roy. Really the only two things that change are they might gain height getting extra options to work with by trying to go high above the stage. Or with all the increased attempts Roy might eventually slip up.

For me, what often ends up breaking the match-ups with Roy is not the character, but the player. I think he has the tools to combat characters, but the reward is so poor that most players do not have the ability to back it and succumb to eventually making some mistake that costs them heavily. Combos involving long hitstun are easy to execute. Combos which depend upon routinely beating your opponent in poor situations (on the ledge, in the air out of stun, or in shield) again and again are hard to execute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomXcdAAt7E From @4:36 to the end of the stock PPMD does not get full hitstun combos, but routinely and actively beats armada in several engagements. This is what I am trying to see applying to Roy as well. But Roy would have fewer options and has to win more engagements (which I think he can do with an advantage situation 'peach in the air, little stage control, in shield, etc.).

 

[keymanb]

Hey guys, in case you haven't seen, voting for the 2015 community tier list has started. Feel free to carry on discussion in either thread

http://smashboards.com/threads/2015-community-tier-list-voting.404738/

Thanks

 

[1MachGO]

What exactly is the point about the information on aerials? I feel you simply rehashed what I said before unless you are trying to make a different point. Roy does less percent per hit than Marth. The less knockback as well means more % is needed to eventually force people offstage. This all means Roy in general has to land more hits than Marth does. Which leads to more potential for errors on the players part. That was sort of my main point of this area of discussion.

I was illustrating that his aerials can hardly produce the advantages he needs to actually get something from hit. Heavy floaties such as Peach or Samus will tank the blow and punish them at low percents. The strategy you are talking about doesn't appear feasible at human level.

The bit with being able to maintain the advantage has varying degrees to it. If a character can always keep someone in hitstun, then this is the best kind. If not, then the next best thing is entering an advantage where you have more options than our opponent. Can Roy always do this? I am not fully certain. There are too many scenarios to consider.

Considering the Uair example you gave with Marth/Roy on Samus. At 50% with Roy's non-tipper Uair he gets 17 frames of hitstun on Samus. This is still enough of a positive advantage on hit. -9 for L-canceling, then whatever else is gained by the air time that Samus/Peach get from being launched upwards before being able to physically reach Roy. This is why I mentioned why it was important to have Roy do falling aerials over rising. Rising loses Roy frame advantage by giving him more hang time in the air before ending lag through L-canceling.

That isn't true at all. A sweetspotted uair would give him 25 frames of hitstun. So lets say, best case scenario, Roy hits with his late, non-sweetspotted uair on his landing frame. After 9 frames of landing lag, he has 8 frames of hitstun. Against his sweetspot, he'd have twice that at 16. This means you'd have 8 frames of extra "hangtime" to achieve the same result as this best-case, non-sweetspotted uair.

Roy is bad, but if he is trying to be Marth in every situation, he is just going to be worse. Marth does his late aerials because it mitigates his slow jump and compliments his spacing. Roy already has a fast jump and has a much more black and white spacing routine. If he wastes frames, it isn't going to get any easier for him since he is far more prone to trades. If he doesn't trade and opts for "maximum spacing" well, he is just air jabbing his opponent for 6% apiece and is trying to play a ridiculous game.

This is true without even considering how all of this uair discussion is occurring in a vacuum. In the real world, how does Roy set up Samus or Peach for juggles? I imagined he launched them with uthrow or dtilt. In which case, it is pretty likely he'd have little to no frames of extra hitstun to work with. Now he is supposed to hit them with an aerial that has pathetic knockback and keep them in a bad position? Its a fairytale.

Edgeguarding should really be denying someone the ability to gaining more parts of the stage. Neither Peach nor Samus particularly want to be at hanging at the ledge nor in the air. If they are routinely knocked away again and again for being in a poor position, then they will die eventually even if it has to be at 250%. Marth gets more leeway in the match-ups and more options. I think Roy can have enough options to combat several scenarios and deny them getting stage control. If Roy's best response to a situation (say Peach/Samus get wavedash from the ledge) is grab into pummel -> Fthrow them back offstage again so be it. Even if this has to repeat 5-6 more times before finally a fair -> edgehog. So be it.

Samus/Peach will live for a long time due to simply having the ability to get back to the stage from even far out. However, this does not mean that they are out of a poor situation against Roy. Really the only two things that change are they might gain height getting extra options to work with by trying to go high above the stage. Or with all the increased attempts Roy might eventually slip up.

For me, what often ends up breaking the match-ups with Roy is not the character, but the player. I think he has the tools to combat characters, but the reward is so poor that most players do not have the ability to back it and succumb to eventually making some mistake that costs them heavily. Combos involving long hitstun are easy to execute. Combos which depend upon routinely beating your opponent in poor situations (on the ledge, in the air out of stun, or in shield) again and again are hard to execute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomXcdAAt7E From @4:36 to the end of the stock PPMD does not get full hitstun combos, but routinely and actively beats armada in several engagements. This is what I am trying to see applying to Roy as well. But Roy would have fewer options and has to win more engagements (which I think he can do with an advantage situation 'peach in the air, little stage control, in shield, etc.).

Not to be a **** here, but edgeguarding is a compound word with a very obvious meaning. "Juggling" doesn't necessarily deny access to the edge and shouldn't be lumped in with edgeguarding. And while that knocking away strategy works with Marth, it wouldn't be so feasible if he couldn't edge guard, tipper with any of his kill moves, or hit with any part of his aerials but the base.

Marth's method of killing these heavy-floaties is already considered attrition when he really only needs about 10-15 good hits on average; some of which string together as combos, juggles, or even directly into a kill blow. Roy, to put it bluntly, simply isn't effective at this. Again, it goes back to getting an advantage vs. maintaining it. Marth can physically get openings and follow ups because his tools allow it. Roy can position Peach and Samus beyond his reach with one of his throws or dtilt and attempt to hit them with one his non-threatening aerials, but that's hardly guaranteed and only gives his opponent more opportunities in the long run.

You are suggesting this character should play like Marth and repeatedly keep his opponent in a bad position, but his moves don't physically allow him to do that (unless we are talking about percents well about 100). You also said he doesn't have any unwinnable match ups but you haven't provided any explanation to how he mitigates top plat camping (see: westballz vs armada) or how he is hopelessly outgunned vs several characters I listed prior.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That isn't true at all. A sweetspotted uair would give him 25 frames of hitstun. So lets say, best case scenario, Roy hits with his late, non-sweetspotted uair on his landing frame. After 9 frames of landing lag, he has 8 frames of hitstun. Against his sweetspot, he'd have twice that at 16. This means you'd have 8 frames of extra "hangtime" to achieve the same result as this best-case, non-sweetspotted uair.

I sort of want to go at this point before moving onto anything else and make sure we are at the same understanding with the following example as I think its important to be at the same conclusion on this on example before I try saying anything else.

Spoiler

Samus 50%. Roy starting an Uair near the apex of a short hop.
Frame 1 - Start-up of Uair
Frame 2 - Start-up of Uair
Frame 3 - Start-up of Uair
Frame 4 - Start-up of Uair
Frame 5 - Hits with untipper Uair (tip of the blade) on Samus. - First frame of hitlag on both Samus/Roy
Frame 6 - 2nd frame hitlag on both Samus/Roy
Frame 7 - 3rd frame hitlag on both Samus/Roy
Frame 8 - 4th frame hitlag on both Samus/Roy
Frame 9 - 5th frame hitlag on both Samus/Roy
Frame 10 - Roy on frame 6 of Uair - Samus is in 1st frame of hitstun
Frame 11 - Roy on frame 7 of Uair and starts a fast fall - Samus is in frame 2 of hitstun
Frame 12 - Roy on frame 8 of Uair - Samus is in frame 3 of hitstun
Frame 13 - Roy on frame 9 of Uair - Samus is in frame 4 of hitstun
Frame 14 - Roy lands on the ground and L-cancels - Samus is in frame 5 of hitstun.
Frame 15 - Frame 2 landing lag - Samus is in frame 6 of hitstun
Frame 16 - Frame 3 landing lag - Samus is in frame 7 of hitstun
Frame 17 - Frame 4 landing lag - Samus is in frame 8 of hitstun
Frame 18 - Frame 5 landing lag - Samus is in frame 9 of hitstun
Frame 19 - Frame 6 landing lag - Samus is in frame 10 of hitstun
Frame 20 - Frame 7 landing lag - Samus is in frame 11 of hitstun
Frame 21 - Frame 8 landing lag - Samus is in frame 12 of hitstun
Frame 22 - Frame 9 landing lag - Samus is in frame 13 of hitstun
Frame 23 - Roy can start any action such as shield or dash away - Samus is in frame 14 of hitstun
Frame 24 - Samus is in frame 15 of hitstun
Frame 25 - Samus is in frame 16 of hitstun
Frame 26 - Samus is in frame 17 of hitstun
Frame 27 - Samus starts frame 1 of Nair.
Frame 28 - Samus frame 2 of Nair
Frame 29 - Samus frame 3 of Nair
Frame 30 - Samus frame 4 of Nair
Frame 31 - Samus Frame 5 of Nair and hitbox out.

Is there anything about this you disagree with?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I dont think uair is roy's problem. His fair on the other hand...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@ Fortress | Sveet
Well, Roy lacks many things, but its not specifically Uair in general I am getting at. The main idea is when does Roy get good enough frame advantage at some lowish percentage (ideally near 30%) where he can hit an aerial target without being retaliated against and reach the ground before the opponent.

If he can do this he can try to punish landing sites at lower percents, then go to using aerials to prevent landings at higher percents.

 

[1MachGO]

I sort of want to go at this point before moving onto anything else and make sure we are at the same understanding with the following example as I think its important to be at the same conclusion on this on example before I try saying anything else.

Spoiler

Samus 50%. Roy starting an Uair near the apex of a short hop.
Frame 1 - Start-up of Uair
Frame 2 - Start-up of Uair
Frame 3 - Start-up of Uair
Frame 4 - Start-up of Uair
Frame 5 - Hits with untipper Uair (tip of the blade) on Samus. - First frame of hitlag on both Samus/Roy
Frame 6 - 2nd frame hitlag on both Samus/Roy
Frame 7 - 3rd frame hitlag on both Samus/Roy
Frame 8 - 4th frame hitlag on both Samus/Roy
Frame 9 - 5th frame hitlag on both Samus/Roy
Frame 10 - Roy on frame 6 of Uair - Samus is in 1st frame of hitstun
Frame 11 - Roy on frame 7 of Uair and starts a fast fall - Samus is in frame 2 of hitstun
Frame 12 - Roy on frame 8 of Uair - Samus is in frame 3 of hitstun
Frame 13 - Roy on frame 9 of Uair - Samus is in frame 4 of hitstun
Frame 14 - Roy lands on the ground and L-cancels - Samus is in frame 5 of hitstun.
Frame 15 - Frame 2 landing lag - Samus is in frame 6 of hitstun
Frame 16 - Frame 3 landing lag - Samus is in frame 7 of hitstun
Frame 17 - Frame 4 landing lag - Samus is in frame 8 of hitstun
Frame 18 - Frame 5 landing lag - Samus is in frame 9 of hitstun
Frame 19 - Frame 6 landing lag - Samus is in frame 10 of hitstun
Frame 20 - Frame 7 landing lag - Samus is in frame 11 of hitstun
Frame 21 - Frame 8 landing lag - Samus is in frame 12 of hitstun
Frame 22 - Frame 9 landing lag - Samus is in frame 13 of hitstun
Frame 23 - Roy can start any action such as shield or dash away - Samus is in frame 14 of hitstun
Frame 24 - Samus is in frame 15 of hitstun
Frame 25 - Samus is in frame 16 of hitstun
Frame 26 - Samus is in frame 17 of hitstun
Frame 27 - Samus starts frame 1 of Nair.
Frame 28 - Samus frame 2 of Nair
Frame 29 - Samus frame 3 of Nair
Frame 30 - Samus frame 4 of Nair
Frame 31 - Samus Frame 5 of Nair and hitbox out.

Is there anything about this you disagree with?

I completely understand that. I was pointing out how inefficient non-sweetspot aerials are for Roy. If he sweetspotted in that situation, for instance, Samus would still be in hit stun by frame 31.

Tipped uair (non-sweetspot) is safer to initiate, but the reward is abysmal. Samus could very easily double jump, air dodge, bomb, or any number of things to get away from Roy in the situation you outlined.

Of course, for the advantage of sweetspotting (potentially leading to a followups) Roy makes himself more prone to counter attack. His sweetspot mechanic doesn't reward him for maximizing his range.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I completely understand that. I was pointing out how inefficient non-sweetspot aerials are for Roy. If he sweetspotted in that situation, for instance, Samus would still be in hit stun by frame 31.

Tipped uair (non-sweetspot) is safer to initiate, but the reward is abysmal. Samus could very easily double jump, air dodge, bomb, or any number of things to get away from Roy in the situation you outlined.

Of course, for the advantage of sweetspotting (potentially leading to a followups) Roy makes himself more prone to counter attack. His sweetspot mechanic doesn't reward him for maximizing his range.

Perfect we are in agreement over this little frame data exercise that Roy does get a decent frame advantage out of this. Enough that he cannot simply be tanked and retaliated against at a 50% threshold. At lower percents lower than 50% I readily agree he can be tanked and retaliated against. How much lower I am not sure. 40% is 16 frames hitstun for samus though.

Alright, the next thing you brought up is that after Samus gets hit she can easily double jump, air dodge, or bomb. These are really the only things she can accomplish other than trying an aerial. Which I think we can agree now that Roy can cover this option of attacking if Samus tries to attack directly.

-Double jump depends. If we are on FD, then Samus stalls her situation of being in the air . Still has to come back down again and Roy can have the ability to cover the landing again. He merely moves to another location of the stage. If she double jumps to another platform, then yes, Samus gets away.

-Air dodge. Simply from experience many times on Marth and other characters in general an air dodge can be punished even if you whiff on the I-frames. It depends upon how low you go to the ground before doing it. The longer you wait the less you can actually react to a character trying to hit you. I believe Roy can cover this option as well.

-Bomb is a stalling method like 2nd jump, but a much lower trajectory. There is still lag from putting out a bomb as well. This too I think Roy can cover.

My point to this is that other than 2nd jump to a platform Roy can have the ability to cover several air options Samus has following the hit of a weak Uair at low percents. Therefore, he maintains an advantaged position even after hitting Samus with the weak part of Uair. So, it does not seem to far fetched to me to believe this scenario might be duplicated on other hits from Grab, Dtilt, etc. until Samus is at a higher enough percent to routinely get knocked offstage into edgeguarding. Roy has to play well and keep denying these options to gain control of the stage.

It will be difficult to do this, but the fact is that Roy can respond to options and this is why I see him being able to maintain advantages. The rest would be having some pilot that is good enough to pull this off without messing up and 14(?) years into the meta players are getting pretty good.

================​

Now, since the only option Roy cannot cover is 2nd jump to a platform I will tackle what you mentioned about top platforms.

The first thing to take note of is that top platforms threaten nothing for Roy on the ground. If he has the stock/% advantage he has little reason to go up there and merely wait for many character to try to get back down. Should he lose such an advantage he does not have to fully commit to engaging them on the top platforms and stay grounded. If the opponent is very adamant about staying up there and only 2 minutes are left on the clock and Roy is down in stock or % lead he finally should start to make shots at the people up there. Although, I am certain most players would have gotten off the top platform against Roy by this time.

An advantage Roy has with being a fast faller and disjoint is he can try taking shots at people through the platform and get down to the ground before many of them have the ability to come and punish him for doing it. While he does not get any lasting advantage out of it any hits will tick up %. But yes, this is about the extent of what I think Roy can with platform play unless he manages to land strong hits and force tech chasing situations on platforms. Or get between people and the platform.

I am not going to say Roy is perfect and should be like Marth reaching like top 3. I am thinking that he might have the ability to rise a bit more to at or below the Links. Yoshi seems to be above the links as a character anyway.

 

[keymanb]

Perfect we are in agreement over this little frame data exercise that Roy does get a decent frame advantage out of this. Enough that he cannot simply be tanked and retaliated against at a 50% threshold. At lower percents lower than 50% I readily agree he can be tanked and retaliated against. How much lower I am not sure. 40% is 16 frames hitstun for samus though.

Alright, the next thing you brought up is that after Samus gets hit she can easily double jump, air dodge, or bomb. These are really the only things she can accomplish other than trying an aerial. Which I think we can agree now that Roy can cover this option of attacking if Samus tries to attack directly.

-Double jump depends. If we are on FD, then Samus stalls her situation of being in the air . Still has to come back down again and Roy can have the ability to cover the landing again. He merely moves to another location of the stage. If she double jumps to another platform, then yes, Samus gets away.

-Air dodge. Simply from experience many times on Marth and other characters in general an air dodge can be punished even if you whiff on the I-frames. It depends upon how low you go to the ground before doing it. The longer you wait the less you can actually react to a character trying to hit you. I believe Roy can cover this option as well.

-Bomb is a stalling method like 2nd jump, but a much lower trajectory. There is still lag from putting out a bomb as well. This too I think Roy can cover.

My point to this is that other than 2nd jump to a platform Roy can have the ability to cover several air options Samus has following the hit of a weak Uair at low percents. Therefore, he maintains an advantaged position even after hitting Samus with the weak part of Uair. So, it does not seem to far fetched to me to believe this scenario might be duplicated on other hits from Grab, Dtilt, etc. until Samus is at a higher enough percent to routinely get knocked offstage into edgeguarding. Roy has to play well and keep denying these options to gain control of the stage.

It will be difficult to do this, but the fact is that Roy can respond to options and this is why I see him being able to maintain advantages. The rest would be having some pilot that is good enough to pull this off without messing up and 14(?) years into the meta players are getting pretty good.

================​

Now, since the only option Roy cannot cover is 2nd jump to a platform I will tackle what you mentioned about top platforms.

The first thing to take note of is that top platforms threaten nothing for Roy on the ground. If he has the stock/% advantage he has little reason to go up there and merely wait for many character to try to get back down. Should he lose such an advantage he does not have to fully commit to engaging them on the top platforms and stay grounded. If the opponent is very adamant about staying up there and only 2 minutes are left on the clock and Roy is down in stock or % lead he finally should start to make shots at the people up there. Although, I am certain most players would have gotten off the top platform against Roy by this time.

An advantage Roy has with being a fast faller and disjoint is he can try taking shots at people through the platform and get down to the ground before many of them have the ability to come and punish him for doing it. While he does not get any lasting advantage out of it any hits will tick up %. But yes, this is about the extent of what I think Roy can with platform play unless he manages to land strong hits and force tech chasing situations on platforms. Or get between people and the platform.

I am not going to say Roy is perfect and should be like Marth reaching like top 3. I am thinking that he might have the ability to rise a bit more to at or below the Links. Yoshi seems to be above the links as a character anyway.

Hey, do you go to the U of M monthlies if you live in Minnesota???

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I went to one a couple years back. It was the second winter one. But, most of the stuff in MN was at smashfests on some vacation times. I have gotten to play wake, bluezaft, randall, slayer, chexr, deepak, tempest, and the kitchen sink in the past. Though I am mainly WI.

 

[keymanb]

I went to one a couple years back. It was the second winter one. But, most of the stuff in MN was at smashfests on some vacation times. I have gotten to play wake, bluezaft, randall, slayer, chexr, deepak, tempest, and the kitchen sink in the past. Though I am mainly WI.

MN be better doe ;3

We got triple R, well I would really enjoy to see you there. I'm going to my first one soon.

 

[EddyBearr]

@ keymanb You should consider going to the MN Arcadian tournament, nobody who has been PR in recent history is allowed (about as far back as Flux wolf or D. Disciple). It's the best place for new players to play without getting turned into rice by me round 1.

 

[keymanb]

@ keymanb You should consider going to the MN Arcadian tournament, nobody who has been PR in recent history is allowed (about as far back as Flux wolf or D. Disciple). It's the best place for new players to play without getting turned into rice by me round 1.

Ay, I'd like to show that shiek some lasers, that is. If ya got the time...

 

[EddyBearr]

Ay, I'd like to show that shiek some lasers, that is. If ya got the time...

I don't attend much, but I'll gladly play if we ended up at the same event or fest at some point

 

[1MachGO]

Perfect we are in agreement over this little frame data exercise that Roy does get a decent frame advantage out of this. Enough that he cannot simply be tanked and retaliated against at a 50% threshold. At lower percents lower than 50% I readily agree he can be tanked and retaliated against. How much lower I am not sure. 40% is 16 frames hitstun for samus though.

Alright, the next thing you brought up is that after Samus gets hit she can easily double jump, air dodge, or bomb. These are really the only things she can accomplish other than trying an aerial. Which I think we can agree now that Roy can cover this option of attacking if Samus tries to attack directly.

-Double jump depends. If we are on FD, then Samus stalls her situation of being in the air . Still has to come back down again and Roy can have the ability to cover the landing again. He merely moves to another location of the stage. If she double jumps to another platform, then yes, Samus gets away.

-Air dodge. Simply from experience many times on Marth and other characters in general an air dodge can be punished even if you whiff on the I-frames. It depends upon how low you go to the ground before doing it. The longer you wait the less you can actually react to a character trying to hit you. I believe Roy can cover this option as well.

-Bomb is a stalling method like 2nd jump, but a much lower trajectory. There is still lag from putting out a bomb as well. This too I think Roy can cover.

My point to this is that other than 2nd jump to a platform Roy can have the ability to cover several air options Samus has following the hit of a weak Uair at low percents. Therefore, he maintains an advantaged position even after hitting Samus with the weak part of Uair. So, it does not seem to far fetched to me to believe this scenario might be duplicated on other hits from Grab, Dtilt, etc. until Samus is at a higher enough percent to routinely get knocked offstage into edgeguarding. Roy has to play well and keep denying these options to gain control of the stage.

It will be difficult to do this, but the fact is that Roy can respond to options and this is why I see him being able to maintain advantages. The rest would be having some pilot that is good enough to pull this off without messing up and 14(?) years into the meta players are getting pretty good.

I'll give you that he might be able to mitigate a direct counter attack, but he simply doesn't have the frames to cover all those options on reaction. In addition to his 9 frames of landing lag, he has a minimum of 5 frames of jumpsquat + uair start-up to respond to something she does in the short term. Couple that with an average 13 frame reaction time, then we are talking about 22+ frames where Samus can create space.

Again, looking at these frames isn't entirely honest, either. How did Roy get her in the air? If she gets launched by dtilt, maybe he'll be able to smack her once with the useless sword of seals but I imagine she is too high for Roy's modest jump and she could probably just bomb stall offstage where he can't threaten her.

If she is somehow low enough for follow ups, well, he does have enough frames to do something like uair>utilt, but then its likely he'll just put himself in the position I just outlined. If he goes for more uairs, then it becomes a read situation where he'll have to account for a trade or escape situation from the Samus.

Couple that with the pathetic knockback and damage output from Roy and I find this whole process of maintaining advantage very lackluster and unrealistic for a human player to maintain.

================​

Now, since the only option Roy cannot cover is 2nd jump to a platform I will tackle what you mentioned about top platforms.

The first thing to take note of is that top platforms threaten nothing for Roy on the ground. If he has the stock/% advantage he has little reason to go up there and merely wait for many character to try to get back down. Should he lose such an advantage he does not have to fully commit to engaging them on the top platforms and stay grounded. If the opponent is very adamant about staying up there and only 2 minutes are left on the clock and Roy is down in stock or % lead he finally should start to make shots at the people up there. Although, I am certain most players would have gotten off the top platform against Roy by this time.

An advantage Roy has with being a fast faller and disjoint is he can try taking shots at people through the platform and get down to the ground before many of them have the ability to come and punish him for doing it. While he does not get any lasting advantage out of it any hits will tick up %. But yes, this is about the extent of what I think Roy can with platform play unless he manages to land strong hits and force tech chasing situations on platforms. Or get between people and the platform.

I am not going to say Roy is perfect and should be like Marth reaching like top 3. I am thinking that he might have the ability to rise a bit more to at or below the Links. Yoshi seems to be above the links as a character anyway.

Your argument against platform camping doesn't feel all that convincing, either. Pretty much any character in the game could just shield/light shield his predictable offenses or punish him if he tries to physically land on the platform. Nothing in his kit is threatening in the air when it comes to raw aggression. I wish I could say I'm exaggerating but this is Roy's air game we are talking about here.

As far as viability goes, I believe you are essentially putting him below the Links on the merits of his dashdance and disjoint (which, along with his fastfaller matchups, are the only thing I see going for him). I think this is misguided because, as I stated earlier, you are emphasizing aspects which primarily speak to defense. If a character can't produce and maintain advantages without their opponent making erroneous decision after erroneous decision than that character has extremely limited potential.

To elaborate, lets compare Roy to G&W. Frankly, they have a lot of similarities on paper. Both have disjointed aerials, both have decent throws, both space with wavedashes and dtilts, both are incredibly fragile, etc. but there is honestly one, massive difference that makes G&W far more feasible in this meta to me:

He doesn't get camped [as easily]

Now when I say this, I am not just speaking to platform camping (which G&W clearly has better answers for), but the implications of being forced on offense in general. This scenario is often very telling in terms of capability because pretty much any character has decent options when they are up a stock. This is also why a lot of people such as Armada will say that Falcon has more potential than Peach. I'm not saying I wholly agree with that, but I believe in the sentiment that outplaying on offense is a struggle when you either lack the speed or moves (such as in Roy's case) to make that comeback.

In short, I don't think Roy's movement properties are significant enough to carry the bad numbers on the rest of his kit. Perhaps being blessed with one aerial that was good on block or CC would have made the difference. But as it stands, I don't see how Roy isn't invalidated by a multitude of characters and strategies. Again, characters with better moves like G&W seem to have more potential; even if their movement is only mid tier.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

In the Samus example from before Roy cannot really try using another aerial. The start-up is too much. This means he has to go with the alternative and punish landings. Airdodge/Aerial can all be punished by hitting landing lag. DownB is special. If the person is too far away from Roy I am not sure he can shield into the DownB and wavedash out and punish with Grab or SH Nair. If not, then the person most likely DownB and moved closer to the ledge which is already because they have less stage to work with. You get no more percentage off it, but you can work with your stage position on the next engagement. 2nd jump depends upon if they 2nd jump to where there are no platforms.

As far as getting Samus in the air at lower percents I do not find very hard to believe. If you stick with mainly Dtilt/Grab as your main space taking strategies on the ground you can put Samus up there high enough to try covering a landing with a falling SH Uair. Its the SH Uair that needs higher percents beyond 50% before Roy gets the ability to try covering options with SH falling Uair. In the best case scenario you deny all options your opponent takes. If not, you cover what options you can, then when your opponent retreats to a poor stage position while you prepare for the next engagement. Continual hits is optimal, but stage position is an advantage that can lead into more continual hits.

I agree there is not much Roy can do to directly take a person off a platform without risking himself. However, neither can another person really try to displace Roy from the ground. Its a very stalemate type situation against several characters with neither side really being able to do much. If you want to think about platform camping against Roy you can very well say Roy can ground camp a person platform camping. The thing that will force Roy up there is if he has little time and losing in % which might not always be the case.

Shielding ironically is a super great strategy in the time that a person tries to hit your shield while on a platform. Dropping from platform while in shield is so good when someone attacks it. However, shielding never has to be attacked. The one shielding is on a timer before their shield breaks. This means they will have to do something eventually and Roy never has to attack it. Either broken shield or they move from that part of the platform.

When trying to gain advantage on the ground Roy to me seems very much like Marth. Any dash forward is aggression (it threatens with Dtilt/Grab which are both very good set-ups for following up. While any dash back is defensive. The only time it feels Roy is defensive is in relation to punishes being rather passive. However, they feel passive in such a way that if your opponent ever tries to take space from Roy in a space which he occupies he can counter it. Covering options to maintain your space means they often have to lose space to get away from a situation. When they give up this space Roy goes to occupy it. Eventually, you either reach an impasse where neither side can safe take anymore stage space (roy on the ground opponent on platform) or Roy has an explicit advantage (someone on the ledge or in the air).

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In relation to the other characters I feel I am mainly putting emphasis on the ability to win several engagements over the opponent rather than how strong of a reward a character gets off punishes. Grabs are pretty identical. Throws differ slightly, but same principles apply. Wavedash speed/length is only 1 frame slower on Roy. Initial dash and top speeds are faster than most of the cast. These traits are already proven on Marth to be effective to win engagements over most of the cast. Roy has the tools to start combos and the ability to prevent combos started against him. The reward for starting combos is not as strong as other characters.

The argument is similar to why some people put Falco above Fox. He has the best neutral game in the entire game. If he can never get caught he should win match-ups. Roy does not have the best neutral, but compared to the other characters around him I think he has a disproportionate ability to win several small exchanges. The ability to deny people access to the stage and beat several options which are threatening to the character is a better trait than how heavily you punish I feel. However, the player element effects this trait pretty heavily.