Doser
Smash Ace
You probably would have seen Mango's falco if he had played M2k, he also prefers to go falco instead of playing the fox mirror match.
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2013 Community Tier List
- Thread starter Fortress | Sveet
- Start date
Mango had convincingly dominated with Puff for a notable stretch of time. Him winning again wouldn't necessarily be a result of the character as much as it is the player. There would be a stronger case for Fox being the best if the entire top echelon of players consisted of Fox players.
And TBH, the whole TAS thing bothers me because the concept itself is incredibly vague. If we are under the assumption that Fox has the potential to improve to ridiculous levels, doesn't that mean that counter strategies have the ability to improve to ridiculous levels? If people are able to perfectly SDI out of Fox's drill/up air or perfectly out space Fox and punish him zero-to-death, will all of the perfected tech skill really matter?
The metagame for Fox and Falco is astoundingly more developed than the other top and high tiers so its fair to say that they are the best on principle. However, its hard to say if they truly possess advantages which allow them to distinguish from the rest of top tier or if they are just tied with them.
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Doser
Smash Ace
Doubtful.
Doser
Smash Ace
You're just asserting that they have a super advanced metagame compared to marth sheik falcon peach and ICs. You need to provide evidence that you can actually measure metagame advancement, and then show that Fox and Falco have advanced a lot more than the others.
I find it doubtful because of how we have seen M2k, PP, and PewPewU take marth to top 8 at MLG. We have seen Armada take Peach's punish game to previously unimagined levels, we have M2k, Ice, and KK constantly repping Sheik. We have Axe evolving Pikachu continuously.
What makes you think Fox and Falco have more development than the others? There comes a time when we have figured out just about everything there is about the characters, and just because some characters may have a stronger metagame doesn't imply that it isn't more advanced. It's similar to how people mistakenly believe that crocodiles are not as 'evolved' as humans, but in reality that statement makes no sense. Crocodiles didn't need to change to have high fitness in their environment, whereas other species had to change considerably.
I find it doubtful because of how we have seen M2k, PP, and PewPewU take marth to top 8 at MLG. We have seen Armada take Peach's punish game to previously unimagined levels, we have M2k, Ice, and KK constantly repping Sheik. We have Axe evolving Pikachu continuously.
What makes you think Fox and Falco have more development than the others? There comes a time when we have figured out just about everything there is about the characters, and just because some characters may have a stronger metagame doesn't imply that it isn't more advanced. It's similar to how people mistakenly believe that crocodiles are not as 'evolved' as humans, but in reality that statement makes no sense. Crocodiles didn't need to change to have high fitness in their environment, whereas other species had to change considerably.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Just stop.
Fox and Falco are the most popular characters in the game. This gives them an advantage in resources over the other characters (that advantage being population) and as a result, they have a stronger pool of players who are developing their strategies and representing said strategies at the highest level of competition (aka the forefront of the metagame)
So while Marth and Sheik have approximately 3 reps each and Pikachu/Peach/Puff have approximately 1 to 2 each, Fox and Falco are consistently being represented by 8+ reps (Mango, PP, M2K, Leffen, Hax, Westballz, Fiction, Lucky, Colbol, SFAT, etc.).
This isn't to say that higher representation inherently means higher metagame development, but this appears to be the case since different strategies are being utilized. Mango, Leffen, and Hax are capable of representing the same character with noticeably different styles while still performing at a similar level of play. The same can be said for Mango, PPMD, and Westballz in regards to Falco. What this means is that there are more winning formulas on display, and thus, more information available to players who are trying to understand Fox or Falco in relation to the metagame.
Compare that to Marth, Peach, Puff, etc. who have fewer reps utilizing strategies at non-similar levels of play. Do we really understand these characters as well as Fox and Falco? I can clearly recall many players doubting the capabilities of Marth until 2013, and which definitively changed in 2014 when PPMD brought Marth back into "top level" so to speak. Prior to that, we had up-and-coming PPU and M2K's "FD counterpick Marth" which practically hadn't progressed since 2010.
Of course, I will admit the possibility that many characters could be linear enough to the point that the sole players who are representing x character at top level are representing the only working strategy they are capable of, but I would like to think that most of these characters are like Marth and that the main thing holding them back is the players (or lack there of) using them.
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ACDC
Smash Journeyman
I will offer my input but I may be biased towards characters that are heavily used in tournaments since I spend more time watching people play than playing myself since my hands are always shaking and I don't do very well. So here goes.
1. Falco. I think Mew2king has made his argument pretty clear. There's no point in repeating it. Falco is very technical so when he makes a mistake you need to know how to capitalize.
2. Fox. It is what it is. Fox is strong in most aspects, can mix up his recovery and has a punish game nearly as good as Falco. But he is in the top 5 hardest characters to learn to add balance to his high position.
3. Jigglypuff. I think the 10th tier list was right on by putting him at 3. He is extremely powerful in the right hands, but a few mistakes and you die very early. Can throw off your game with the slower pace if you don't know the matchup.
4. Marth. Solid spacing. Hard to fight without projectiles if he takes the lead.
5. Peach. Has a solid game against most characters but has strong counters such as Link. Peach can be used effectively against Sheik as we have seen many times with Armada vs Mew2king
6. Sheik has VERY solid matchups against low tiers + Yoshi but not so much against most top tiers. Up B Easily punishable but Ledge game makes up for it. A defensive Sheik is very strong, but boring to watch.
7. Yoshi. Can be used effectively against any charcter exept peach and sheik. Has amazing untapped potential mined by Amsa right now. Probably the hardest character in the game to learn because he's different in every aspect from other characters. Requires alot of dedication and is hard to use unless he's the only character you use because you will get mixed up unless you become very good. But your opponent will be thrown off by it as well so if you can achieve that, you're very good.
8. Ice Climbers. Has a high learning curve that hits a plateau once you get very high. At that point it's all about mind games and with 2 characters it has alot of potential we haven't seen alot of yet. Wobbling is also good, but nana is too easy to kill.
From here down the tournament viablility is questionnable but not out of the question.
9. Samus. Very effective against fox. Probably 55:45 in the favour of Samus but no one dares to speak against Fox. Samus can mix up his recovery with grab and down B. That and his floaty and yet heavy build makes him very good in the hand of players such a Duck.
10. Captain Falcon. Relies too heavily on reads and tech rolls, but if you make a mistake you will get a heavy blow from any good Falcon. He has a medium ground game but in the air he will wreck you. You don't want to trade a Falcon when he's at lower percents becaause he can regain position faster than you. Probably overrated but very fun to watch.
11. Link. Gets punished hard when he misses an attack and that's why he's so low on the tier list. But he can effectively destroy anyone under him in my tier list at at least a 50% rate with the exeption of Ganondorf. Sadly we don't have top players using Link but we can look at SAUS if we want a glimpse at his great potential.
12. Luigi. Best wavedash of the game. Has very unorthodox movement and with good reflexes he can be a terror on the battlefield. His nair is very good but Luigi gets KO'd vertically very easily.
13. Ganondorf. For a slow character, he's very solid with L-cancel and Wavedashes/Wavelands. His KO power is one of the best in the game but his combo game is lacking. He destroys Young Link it's not even funny.
From here down the characters are not tournament viable unless used as a counterpick or if you have more skill than your opponents.
14. Pikachu. Unreliable but can gimp easily if you get your opponent off the stage. Can counter Falcon on FD with changrabs. Since Link is the same weight I assume it's possible with him too.
15. Young Link. The counterpick guy. He has very good and very bad matchups and nothing really in between. You want to use him against Peach and Jigglypuff. Against campy Jigglypuffs you can finally play their game and let the timer run out. A pocket Young Link is also very useful to kill DK. Down tilt automatically kills a DK during an up B even if he jumps after getting hit to avoid the "spike" because he has no vertical recovery. Young Link also destroys the two Marios, Luigi, Ice climbers and anything under him on the tier list. Young Link gets wrecked 75:25 by any other characters and that's why you can't main him, especially because most of his worst weaknesses are the most used characters.
16. Dr. Mario. The most overrated character on the tier list. He has nothing extraordinary but no obvious flaws. His consistency is the only thing going for him. Dr. Mario is less affected by matchups and maps than most characters because of his well rounded nature
17. Mario. The character I have played the most against. He has no potential, but he's not horrible. His recovery is alot better than Dr. mario but his lack of finisher attack until high percents puts him lower than the Doc. You will need to use grabs alot with Mario so he's better against people that shield alot.
Anything under this has absolutely no potential whatsoever unless you're more skilled than your opponent.
18. Donkey Kong. Probably the only character in the no potential section that could jump into the OK characters.
19. Mewtwo.
20. Roy.
21. Ness. Over Pichu because his down B can take care of electricity.
22. Pichu. Because Pikachu is better in every aspect, I think he's biased against.
23. Bowser.
23. Zelda. Tied with Bowser
25. Game and Watch. Worst shield in game and dies early. We all agree that he's low but I think he still gets too much credit.
26. Kirby.
Edit : Link and Falcon swapped positions.
1. Falco. I think Mew2king has made his argument pretty clear. There's no point in repeating it. Falco is very technical so when he makes a mistake you need to know how to capitalize.
2. Fox. It is what it is. Fox is strong in most aspects, can mix up his recovery and has a punish game nearly as good as Falco. But he is in the top 5 hardest characters to learn to add balance to his high position.
3. Jigglypuff. I think the 10th tier list was right on by putting him at 3. He is extremely powerful in the right hands, but a few mistakes and you die very early. Can throw off your game with the slower pace if you don't know the matchup.
4. Marth. Solid spacing. Hard to fight without projectiles if he takes the lead.
5. Peach. Has a solid game against most characters but has strong counters such as Link. Peach can be used effectively against Sheik as we have seen many times with Armada vs Mew2king
6. Sheik has VERY solid matchups against low tiers + Yoshi but not so much against most top tiers. Up B Easily punishable but Ledge game makes up for it. A defensive Sheik is very strong, but boring to watch.
7. Yoshi. Can be used effectively against any charcter exept peach and sheik. Has amazing untapped potential mined by Amsa right now. Probably the hardest character in the game to learn because he's different in every aspect from other characters. Requires alot of dedication and is hard to use unless he's the only character you use because you will get mixed up unless you become very good. But your opponent will be thrown off by it as well so if you can achieve that, you're very good.
8. Ice Climbers. Has a high learning curve that hits a plateau once you get very high. At that point it's all about mind games and with 2 characters it has alot of potential we haven't seen alot of yet. Wobbling is also good, but nana is too easy to kill.
From here down the tournament viablility is questionnable but not out of the question.
9. Samus. Very effective against fox. Probably 55:45 in the favour of Samus but no one dares to speak against Fox. Samus can mix up his recovery with grab and down B. That and his floaty and yet heavy build makes him very good in the hand of players such a Duck.
10. Captain Falcon. Relies too heavily on reads and tech rolls, but if you make a mistake you will get a heavy blow from any good Falcon. He has a medium ground game but in the air he will wreck you. You don't want to trade a Falcon when he's at lower percents becaause he can regain position faster than you. Probably overrated but very fun to watch.
11. Link. Gets punished hard when he misses an attack and that's why he's so low on the tier list. But he can effectively destroy anyone under him in my tier list at at least a 50% rate with the exeption of Ganondorf. Sadly we don't have top players using Link but we can look at SAUS if we want a glimpse at his great potential.
12. Luigi. Best wavedash of the game. Has very unorthodox movement and with good reflexes he can be a terror on the battlefield. His nair is very good but Luigi gets KO'd vertically very easily.
13. Ganondorf. For a slow character, he's very solid with L-cancel and Wavedashes/Wavelands. His KO power is one of the best in the game but his combo game is lacking. He destroys Young Link it's not even funny.
From here down the characters are not tournament viable unless used as a counterpick or if you have more skill than your opponents.
14. Pikachu. Unreliable but can gimp easily if you get your opponent off the stage. Can counter Falcon on FD with changrabs. Since Link is the same weight I assume it's possible with him too.
15. Young Link. The counterpick guy. He has very good and very bad matchups and nothing really in between. You want to use him against Peach and Jigglypuff. Against campy Jigglypuffs you can finally play their game and let the timer run out. A pocket Young Link is also very useful to kill DK. Down tilt automatically kills a DK during an up B even if he jumps after getting hit to avoid the "spike" because he has no vertical recovery. Young Link also destroys the two Marios, Luigi, Ice climbers and anything under him on the tier list. Young Link gets wrecked 75:25 by any other characters and that's why you can't main him, especially because most of his worst weaknesses are the most used characters.
16. Dr. Mario. The most overrated character on the tier list. He has nothing extraordinary but no obvious flaws. His consistency is the only thing going for him. Dr. Mario is less affected by matchups and maps than most characters because of his well rounded nature
17. Mario. The character I have played the most against. He has no potential, but he's not horrible. His recovery is alot better than Dr. mario but his lack of finisher attack until high percents puts him lower than the Doc. You will need to use grabs alot with Mario so he's better against people that shield alot.
Anything under this has absolutely no potential whatsoever unless you're more skilled than your opponent.
18. Donkey Kong. Probably the only character in the no potential section that could jump into the OK characters.
19. Mewtwo.
20. Roy.
21. Ness. Over Pichu because his down B can take care of electricity.
22. Pichu. Because Pikachu is better in every aspect, I think he's biased against.
23. Bowser.
23. Zelda. Tied with Bowser
25. Game and Watch. Worst shield in game and dies early. We all agree that he's low but I think he still gets too much credit.
26. Kirby.
Edit : Link and Falcon swapped positions.
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Landry
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
- Messages
- 839
I don't know what's worse: ranking Yoshi 7th (WAY WAY WAY TOO HIGH), ranking Jigglypuff 3rd (Puff suffers a lot in the current meta imo) or ranking Falcon 11th (wayyyyy too low) BEHIND LINK of all characters. lol
edit: Falco > Fox is also questionable
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HRR2b23
Smash Apprentice
I don't really get how Sheik has bad MUs against "other top tiers." She loses to ICs yeah, and probably like 45/55 Fox and 40/60 Falco, but she beats Marth and Falcon, and probably goes even with Peach at worst (I think she beats Peach.) Aside from that, Yoshi is way too high, and I can't even think of 15 characters Link can even go 50/50 with, so ranking him 10th is way too high. CF is also several spots too low, seeing as how well he can hang with the other top tiers (heck, even M2K just went Falcon at MLG and almost beat PPMD's Marth, and he never plays him in tourney.) Other than those this tier list probably isn't that far off.
ACDC
Smash Journeyman
Link has very solid matchups, his only problem is the high tiers that are used the most like Fox, Falco and Sheik. I think the only character under him that could beat him in my tier list is Captain falcon and Ganon maybe if both players have the same skill. I changed my tier list to put Falcon over Link you made a good point in my opinion
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TheGoat
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2010
- Messages
- 584
SSBM_HypnoToad
THE HypnoToad?
I wasn't at the score, I was too busy that weekend with my win at EVO.
@
ACDC
I have some criticisms regarding your tier list
I'm also not sure if I can get behind Samus being ranked 9th. She struggles against Sheik, Puff, Marth, Falcon, and Doc ( I think?). She is pretty good, but clearly upper mid tier at best.
Btw, chain grabs are mostly a result of falling speed; not weight. Fox, Falco, and Falcon can be CG'd by Pikachu but not Link or other floaty/semi-floaty characters.
ACDC
I have some criticisms regarding your tier listWhile I agree that Amsa has shown a lot of Yoshi's potential, it is still too hard to say if he belongs in high tier above characters like Captain Falcon. I would say he assuredly lies at least somewhere in mid tier, but we honestly need more data on the character and his match ups before we can jump to a conclusion like this one
Samus is actually very effective against Falco; not Fox. Samus/Fox is probably slightly in Fox's favor (most Samus mains would probably agree).
I'm also not sure if I can get behind Samus being ranked 9th. She struggles against Sheik, Puff, Marth, Falcon, and Doc ( I think?). She is pretty good, but clearly upper mid tier at best.
Falcon has too many good match ups to be ranked anywhere lower than Ice Climbers and barely deserves to be ranked that low.
I couldn't disagree more with your rating of Link. Link is clearly beaten by Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Falcon and probably loses to Marth, Mario/Doc (brutal chaingrab) and Pikachu. Floaties like Peach, Samus, Ice Climbers, and Jiggs are probably fair but I honestly feel like he is outclassed by Young Link in most of these match ups. He definitely stands tall above other garbage low tiers such as Roy, Kirby, and Bowser, but I feel like he is too heavily outclassed to be considered mid tier.
Wayyyyy too low, imo. Pikachu is like a gimp centric Fox who traded most of his approach options for an amazing recovery. He is an extremely solid character and is easily among the best in mid tier if not borderline high tier. His only bad match ups are probably Sheik and Falco. (Though Doc isn't particularly great either). I'm actually surprised you rated Pikachu so low given Axe's recent performance at MLG.
Btw, chain grabs are mostly a result of falling speed; not weight. Fox, Falco, and Falcon can be CG'd by Pikachu but not Link or other floaty/semi-floaty characters.
Young Link is relatively underrated and is definitely better than Link. He has excellent mobility, a strong edge and projectile game, and has some great match ups against floaties (most notably Jigglypuff). I feel like he shares a lot of bad match ups with Link, especially with Fox and Falco, but unlike Link, I actually feel like Young Link players have more of an ability to overcome their match ups through the sheer will of mobility and camping. Its a struggle, but Young Link is certainly on the lower end of mid tier.
If he is overrated, it is only slightly and he should still be considered upper mid tier. Your reasoning is also contradictory in the sense that you are admitting he lacks flaws while still contending he is inferior to the characters above him. For the most part, Doc is a versatile character who is difficult to exploit outside of his attack range and recovery and is definitely correctly placed on the current tier list. Pikachu and Mario are the only two characters with the potential to be better than him outside of the established top/high tier.
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Guzzler Guzzler
Melee Elitist
gr8 b8 m8.... good lord...
Mint Alicarth
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2014
- Messages
- 42
Tier List:
Fox
Falco
Marth
Peach
Sheik
Puff
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Luigi
Doc
Mario
Yoshi
Ganon
Young Link
Roy
Link
Pikachu
Samus
DANKEY KANG
Ness
Mewtwo
Zelda
G&W
Pichu
Bowser
Kirby
Fox
Falco
Marth
Peach
Sheik
Puff
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Luigi
Doc
Mario
Yoshi
Ganon
Young Link
Roy
Link
Pikachu
Samus
DANKEY KANG
Ness
Mewtwo
Zelda
G&W
Pichu
Bowser
Kirby
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Tier List:
Link
(...)
Samus
Besides Peach, I also play Link, and I seriously don't see how Link > Samus. Samus's projectile game is much better and versatile than Link's against every character in the game, her neutral "Street Fighter-esque" game is much faster than Link's, and has more options to escape pressure than Link. The only time Link is better than Samus is in the Link vs Samus matchup (lol), and maaaaaaybe Link vs Puff since the bombs and boomerang are better than missiles in those two MUs.
EDIT: How is Roy better than Link? I am genuinely intrigued now.Tier List:
Roy
Link
Pikachu
Samus
Roy, like, just how? He has a bad combination of weight and falling speed that leave him open like combo food on a buffet, his terrible sweetspot placement forces him to attack much closer, he might as well be slapping opponents with a wet noodle if you actually use his "range," and the few neutral game options and approaches he has are predictable and easy to read. Roy basically has all of Link's problems with an added terrible "range," an even less flexible recovery, no projectile, and even less reliable KO moves.
And even more baffling... how is Roy better than Pikachu AND Samus?
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DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
This my tier list:
Top
Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
High
Peach
Jiggles
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers
Mid-High
Samus
Mario M.D.
Pikachu
Luigi
Mid
Mario
Yoshi
Falcondorf
Mid-Low
Young Link
Link
DK
Mewtwo
Low
Roy
Zelda
G&W
Ness
Bottom
Kirby
Bowser
Pichu
Top
Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
High
Peach
Jiggles
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers
Mid-High
Samus
Mario M.D.
Pikachu
Luigi
Mid
Mario
Yoshi
Falcondorf
Mid-Low
Young Link
Link
DK
Mewtwo
Low
Roy
Zelda
G&W
Ness
Bottom
Kirby
Bowser
Pichu
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ACDC
Smash Journeyman
This my tier list:
Top
Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
High
Peach
Jiggles
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers
Mid-High
Samus
Mario M.D.
Pikachu
Luigi
Mid
Mario
Yoshi
Falcondorf
Mid-Low
Young Link
Link
DK
Mewtwo
Low
Roy
Zelda
G&W
Ness
Bottom
Kirby
Bowser
Pichu
I like your list in gereral, but I think Yoshi is too low and Mario too high. Also pichu can't be worse than Kirby.
Mint Alicarth
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2014
- Messages
- 42
In my opinion, Link is more versatile than Samus. Samus only has a projectile game where as Link has both that and a great punish game.
Roy has more potential than Link, Pikachu and Samus when played at a high level IMO.
Guzzler Guzzler
Melee Elitist
... Did you just use a combo video to justify Roy's high placing
Boondocker
Smash Ace
The real tier list
Top
Fox
Falco
Jiggles
Sheik
Marth
Peach
High
Ice Climbers
C. Falcon
Mid
Samus
Pikachu
Luigi
Yoshi
Dr. Mario
Low
Young Link
Mario
Ganondorf
Link
DK
Mewtwo
Bottom
Roy
Pichu
G&W
Ness
Zelda
Kirby
Bowser
Top
Fox
Falco
Jiggles
Sheik
Marth
Peach
High
Ice Climbers
C. Falcon
Mid
Samus
Pikachu
Luigi
Yoshi
Dr. Mario
Low
Young Link
Mario
Ganondorf
Link
DK
Mewtwo
Bottom
Roy
Pichu
G&W
Ness
Zelda
Kirby
Bowser
Guzzler Guzzler
Melee Elitist
^^^^^ I sort of disagree with the mid tiers but they're all in the same tier so that's no big deal
Time to throw my hat in the ring I guess
1MachGO's 2014 Tier List (Like, comment, and subscribe lol)
So I have been playing, watching, and discussing this game for a handful of years now. I am no top player (and probably never will be) but I would like to think that I have finally acquired enough insight to produce a tier list based on educated, albeit, personal opinions.
Top Tier: Very Viable; can be used to win a tournament with little to no CPing
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Sheik
4. Marth
High Tier: Viable; Can win tournaments by themselves but may find it easier to utilize CPing for certain MUs
5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers
9. Mario
Mid Tier: Somewhat viable, but have noticeable weaknesses or match ups which prevent them from realistically being consistently represented at top level of competition
10-11. Doc
10-11. Pikachu
12. Samus
13. Yoshi
14. Young Link
15. Luigi
16. Ganondorf
Low Tier: AKA Fatally Flawed Tier (unordered)
Link
Donkey Kong
Mr. Game and Watch
Mewtwo
Pichu
Ness
Garbage Tier: Doesn't have a prayer (unordered)
Zelda
Roy
Kirby
Bowser
1MachGO's 2014 Tier List (Like, comment, and subscribe lol)
So I have been playing, watching, and discussing this game for a handful of years now. I am no top player (and probably never will be) but I would like to think that I have finally acquired enough insight to produce a tier list based on educated, albeit, personal opinions.
Top Tier: Very Viable; can be used to win a tournament with little to no CPing
1. Falco
I stand by Falco being the best character in singles and have felt this way prior to M2K publicizing his own tier list. As good and as seemingly more well rounded Fox is, I find Falco to possess more reliable tools and require less effort at higher levels of play. Whereas Fox uses heavy amounts of mobility to win the neutral game, Falco can accurately shoot lasers and literally begin to infringe on his opponent's options from a safe distance. This isn't to say lasers are broken (in most MUs they aren't) but Falco's solution for the neutral game is far more effective and elegant than practically every other character's in the game. On top of that, he arguably has the most fearsome, all around combo game in the entire cast. His shine>dair and other combo strings are generally less affected by SDI than Fox and he can utilize platforms to extend punishes (Marth being the only character who can rival him in this regard). His recovery isn't generally as good as Fox's but it can be very reliable in certain situations.
In terms of match ups, I feel as though Falco's only bad match up is Samus which is still very winnable. He beats or goes even with every other character in the game.
In terms of match ups, I feel as though Falco's only bad match up is Samus which is still very winnable. He beats or goes even with every other character in the game.
2. Fox
Fox is a jack of all trades; master of some. His biggest strength is in his ability to respond to changing situations with an appropriate response and he gets huge mileage out of powerful assets such as his speed, upward killing ability, and versatility of shine. However, I feel like he is a character that often relies on nickel and dime'ing, baiting, and putting himself at risk. While players have been able to mitigate these issues, Fox will only become harder to be consistent with as players improve their ability to punish space animals and comprehend Fox's speed in the neutral game. If he had more natural advantages, such as a better attack range, I would more readily accept him as the best character in the game, but I find Falco to ultimately be the more reliable option. Especially if Marth develops in the Fox counter he is slowly appearing to be.
3. Sheik
Sheik, bar none, has the best MU spread in the entire cast. She is somewhat weak to the space animals and ICs but she counters practically every other character in the game which gives her insane implications in competitive settings. Simply put, If Fox and Falco didn't exist, Sheik would practically be god tier.
Even scarier is that Sheik's potential isn't as well realized as Fox and Falco's currently are. Not to downplay M2K's skill as a player, but he has essentially shown that this character can pretty much muscle into the top ranks of a tournament by abusing her punishes and edge game. If a player possessed mastery on not only that, but other facets of gameplay such as the neutral game, Sheik would look unfair.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) Sheik seems somewhat unpopular and definitely possesses a stigma for a multitude of reasons. As a result, she doesn't see as much representation at top levels of play as much as a character with her advantages should.
Even scarier is that Sheik's potential isn't as well realized as Fox and Falco's currently are. Not to downplay M2K's skill as a player, but he has essentially shown that this character can pretty much muscle into the top ranks of a tournament by abusing her punishes and edge game. If a player possessed mastery on not only that, but other facets of gameplay such as the neutral game, Sheik would look unfair.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) Sheik seems somewhat unpopular and definitely possesses a stigma for a multitude of reasons. As a result, she doesn't see as much representation at top levels of play as much as a character with her advantages should.
4. Marth
Marth has one bad match up: Sheik. When considering this fact, it is odd that he hasn't been considered 3rd best on principle alone. However, Marth has less "free" match ups than Sheik and is generally harder to play effectively (sorry Sheik players). With that said, PPMD's innovation with the character has convinced me that this character is amazing in floaty MUs which, combined with his great MUs vs. space animals, makes him more relevant than ever in the current metagame.
High Tier: Viable; Can win tournaments by themselves but may find it easier to utilize CPing for certain MUs
5. Jigglypuff
Puff loses to Young Link, Fox, Doc, and Marth (listed in order of severity). This, combined with a few other evenish MUs, firmly keeps Puff out of top tier. However, I still believe this character and her extremely polarized strengths make her GOOD and while Hungrybox's strategy is starting to be downloaded by various players, she definitely has enough untapped potential to keep her relevant and likely remain above the capabilities of her fellow high tier.
6. Peach
Despite having a few tough match ups and lacking some attack range, Peach has a very unique and very useful toolset. Armada has proven time and time again that this character can take it all, but I'm curious to see if other players can do it through different playstyles or if M2K was right in saying that Armada has "perfected" Peach. She is an interesting character, but I do feel that she is held back by some match ups (particularly the Puff hard counter) and she suffers from some consistency issues due to the random nature of turnips which can easily change a match.
7. Captain Falcon
The "Falcon isn't viable" bandwagon has always struck me as silly when considering how good this character's overall match ups are. He performs very well against characters like ICs, Peach, and Marth, as well as wrecking almost every character below him. Admittedly, he utilizes a high risk-high reward playstyle that makes him among the most difficult characters to play at top level, but the potential is still there for Falcon to succeed
8. Ice Climbers
While they can death touch their opponents and possess a seemingly limitless amount of desync techniques, Ice Climbers seem somewhat inconsistent. Most of top/high tier and a few other characters are able to effectively apply a kill-nana strategy and reduce the Ice Climbers to a low tier character. The limitations from managing Nana's AI combined with good opponent MU experience can make it extremely difficult to play this character at top level
9. Mario
This may be my most controversial ranking on my tier list. I had previously expressed my beliefs on Mario a few pages back, but for those of you who didn't read them, allow me to reiterate: Mario not being ranked more than one placement away from Doc is one of the strangest myths in this community. The differences between these characters, while important, are not significant enough to change their viability drastically like Marth and Roy. Mario and Doc are, at the simplest level, interchangeable based on preference.
My take on the clones is that Mario is the very average, but well rounded character, while Doc is the slightly tilted version of his original self. What Doc has gained in single hit power, edge guarding, and projectile viability, he has lost in regards to some of his frame data, recovery, and combo opportunity. These changes then translate into their match ups. Doc has more winning match ups, but Mario has less losing ones.
IMO, Mario's scenario is more valuable than Doc's and is enough to push him over the edge into the very bottom of high tier. His only losing MUs, imo, are probably Marth and maybeeee Falco. This is actually far less than the rest of high tier, but I feel as though Mario's failing is in his difficulty to play. Even if Mario is somewhat hard to exploit, he has to WORK in most of his even match ups to get a strong conversion.
My take on the clones is that Mario is the very average, but well rounded character, while Doc is the slightly tilted version of his original self. What Doc has gained in single hit power, edge guarding, and projectile viability, he has lost in regards to some of his frame data, recovery, and combo opportunity. These changes then translate into their match ups. Doc has more winning match ups, but Mario has less losing ones.
IMO, Mario's scenario is more valuable than Doc's and is enough to push him over the edge into the very bottom of high tier. His only losing MUs, imo, are probably Marth and maybeeee Falco. This is actually far less than the rest of high tier, but I feel as though Mario's failing is in his difficulty to play. Even if Mario is somewhat hard to exploit, he has to WORK in most of his even match ups to get a strong conversion.
Mid Tier: Somewhat viable, but have noticeable weaknesses or match ups which prevent them from realistically being consistently represented at top level of competition
10-11. Doc
Pretty self explanatory. This character will proceed to fall of the wayside now that Shroomed isn't really using him, but he actually has some pretty decent MUs. He seems to go even with the space animals and does well against Puff and ICs. He doesn't lose to anyone outside of high and top tier.
10-11. Pikachu
I hate to be that guy who thinks a character is better based off one tournament, but I actually think Pikachu is just as good as Doc now. Axe has broken the plateau he seemingly had and it has led me to rethink Pikachu's ability to compete. I believe Sheik counters him and he slightly loses to Falco and Doc while going evenish with the rest of high/top tier. The character lacks range, seems reliant one edge guards, and can look like a bad Fox at times, but his solid mobility and amazing recovery may be enough to offset these issues.
12. Samus
Not too much to say here. Samus has an amazing amount of defensive options and has her mixed bag of good and bad match ups like a typical mid tier. She does possess some hidden potential, such as her bomb landing, but I feel like her poke game and inherently attrition-based style will prevent her from being as reliable as a high or top tier character
13. Yoshi
Yoshi is a character we have limited data on to begin with and if Wife was right about this summer being aMSa's last, we'll never truly understand Yoshi's potential. Yoshi is a character with top tier defensive capabilities while possessing a strong neutral, punish, and edge game. His recovery is ultimately flawed and the difficulty of playing the character consistently may be unrealistic. I would say that he definitely loses to Falco and Sheik with the remainder of high/top tier match ups being tipped gently out of his favor at least (ICs may be even though). He belongs in mid tier, IMO
14. Young Link
Young Link has a great close range recovery, good match ups vs. floaties, a solid edge game, and extremely versatile projectiles. His potential based on his projectile game and mobility leads me to believe he is highly underrated and far less gimmicky than those listed below him. He may have to resort to an extremely patient camping game to overcome his worst match ups, however.
15. Luigi
Super polarized character with crazy ground mobility, aerials, and good combos. However, his recovery is unreliable and I find him easy to exploit when he is in a bad position or through his flawed recovery.
16. Ganondorf
Ganon's reliance on single hits and edge guarding doesn't inherently make him terrible, but certainly difficult to play at high level. Coupled with his exploitable recovery, speed, and weight class, I would say Ganon is generally at the disadvantage in most match ups; putting him at the bottom of mid tier.
Low Tier: AKA Fatally Flawed Tier (unordered)
Link
Though I stated these characters are unranked, IMO, Link has the dubious honor of being the best non-viable character. He has a decent toolset of projectiles, disjointed attacks, and a decent recovery, but he lacks the mobility/frame data to be relevant in the current meta. His best match ups are primarily against characters who his younger counterpart tends to be better at by default. Its sad because it honestly wouldn't have taken much to made Link viable (see: Project: M)
Donkey Kong
Bad hitboxes (and hurtboxes), a limited recovery, and just a restricted toolset in general, DK scrapes by with the power of cargo throw and a few other moves. DK's lack of options are easily exploited and ultimately cause him to suffer from some really bad MUs.
Mr. Game and Watch
Of the low tier who suffer from fatal flaws, Mr. G&W is the most tragic. A few numerical changes and he'd be a solid mid tier at worst. Despite having one of the fastest OoS options in the game, powerful, disjointed attacks, and an amazing grab game, G&W has terrible tech roll data, a useless hard shield, and the inability to L-Cancel most of his aerials. Defense is absolutely his worst trait, and nearly every character in the game can exploit his low, combo friendly weight and terrible shield. Of all the low tiers, I feel the worst for G&W.
Mewtwo
Great recovery, interesting mobility, solid aerials, attack range, and throws. Unfortunately he is a huge target with a crappy weight and low BKB attacks which makes him highly exploitable in the long run
Pichu
Despite having a decent recovery and fast movement speed, it is only a crutch for Pichu's enormous flaws. He is incredibly restricted and his over reliance on mediocre attacks prevent him from every achieving viability
Ness
Ness actually has excellent mobility via DJC and some great aerials to boot. His biggest issue is his recovery, IMO, which makes Ness extremely easy to exploit
Garbage Tier: Doesn't have a prayer (unordered)
Zelda
Extreme reliance on bair, fair, dsmash, and a few other moves (such as down b). Zelda has a good recovery but her mobility is poor all around and she can be outmaneuvered by just about every character in the game. I can't see her realistically having a positive match up against any character.
Roy
I played Roy a lot as a kid but I will be the first to admit that he is utter trash. Despite his disjointed aerials and a few good moves such as dtilt and fsmash, Drunk Marth is weighed down by his terrible recovery, weak sourspot, and a combo friendly weight/fallspeed class. He is extremely easy to counter attack through shielding and CCing which forces him to rely on his grab and dtilt to begin conversions.
Kirby
Almost exclusively limited to a poke game. Kirby has decent tilts but has few reliable ways to create conversions. His recovery is also surprisingly bad
Bowser
Extremely slow and limited. His up-b OoS is good but I can't see anything really connecting unless his opponent let him
D
Deleted member
Guest
Why isn't Goku top tier?
Guzzler Guzzler
Melee Elitist
I don't follow your logic for placing mario 9th at all "Doc has more winning match ups, but Mario has less losing ones." Could you expand on that? Are you implying that there are some matchups doc loses but mario wins? If so, which? Also I think you're really under rating luigi, his recovery isn't nearly as easy to edge guard against as you think it is
BO/\K
Smash Apprentice
Mario's not waiting for his Armada. A Rookie has become an incredible, top-level player. If he traveled more, he'd be top 20, easily. Recently, he's beaten Lucky, Fiction, Westballz, S2J and I believe MacD, and he took a game of PewPewU. He's a top level player with Mario.
Dark Lady
A Red Witch
@
1
1MachGO
As a Zelda player, I can personally tell you she has positive match-ups, and some even ones.
Where mobility is less of a factor (Samus) 55:45 Zelda / 50:50, where she can smack floaties and lightweights like a battering ram (Mario) 50:50, has an all out spacing war (Peach) 55:45 Peach (Mewtwo) 50:50, or is just all around better than the character (Roy, Bowser, Pichu, Kirby) All positive for Zelda.
She only struggles hard, like really hard, on 3 of the top 5.
Sheik is unwinnable. Period. 90:10 Sheik
Fox is Fox and Zelda only has two viable OoS buttons. 75:25 Fox
Marth is the spacing devil who out prioritizes EVERYTHING. 75:25 Marth
For everyone else, she generally has options to duke it out with them. Outside of those three, her worst ones are 70:30 tops. And that's like... C.Falcon -maybe- and Falco.
Where mobility is less of a factor (Samus) 55:45 Zelda / 50:50, where she can smack floaties and lightweights like a battering ram (Mario) 50:50, has an all out spacing war (Peach) 55:45 Peach (Mewtwo) 50:50, or is just all around better than the character (Roy, Bowser, Pichu, Kirby) All positive for Zelda.
She only struggles hard, like really hard, on 3 of the top 5.
Sheik is unwinnable. Period. 90:10 Sheik
Fox is Fox and Zelda only has two viable OoS buttons. 75:25 Fox
Marth is the spacing devil who out prioritizes EVERYTHING. 75:25 Marth
For everyone else, she generally has options to duke it out with them. Outside of those three, her worst ones are 70:30 tops. And that's like... C.Falcon -maybe- and Falco.
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DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
I have to disagree with the any of the Links being placed above Ganondorf. He's faster than Link and has more range than Y. Link, better survivability than both, insane power in most of his moves, and overall much better matchups than the Links.
He's the only other character besides Peach who wrecks the IC's due to his strong knockback and deceptively large hitboxes, his only real counters are Fox, Sheik, and arguably Falco while he is soft-countered or goes even with the other top-tiers and mid-tiers. The only matchup where I can see the Links better than Ganon is against Jigglypuff.
He's the only other character besides Peach who wrecks the IC's due to his strong knockback and deceptively large hitboxes, his only real counters are Fox, Sheik, and arguably Falco while he is soft-countered or goes even with the other top-tiers and mid-tiers. The only matchup where I can see the Links better than Ganon is against Jigglypuff.
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Stevo
Smash Champion
let's say character A has matchups accross the board that are 40:60
Character B has matchups more like 30:70 but has one matchup that is 70:30 in his favor, and that character happens to be very popular.
Does Character B deserve to be higher on the tier list? Or is Character A overall "Better".
Character B has matchups more like 30:70 but has one matchup that is 70:30 in his favor, and that character happens to be very popular.
Does Character B deserve to be higher on the tier list? Or is Character A overall "Better".
Sorry if that was unclear. To elaborate, I think Doc wins vs. Puff, ICs, Ganon, Samus, Pikachu, while losing to Marth, C. Falcon, and Sheik. For Mario, all of these MUs become even with the exception of Marth which is still in Marth's favor (but less so than Doc). Both of them are somewhat soft countered by Falco and go evenish vs. Fox, IMO.
And idk about Luigi, I feel like he is pretty vulnerable during side-b's activation and his up-b is stupid easy to edge hog.
I think Mario has an abundance of even MUs vs. the high and top tiers (including Sheik) which means he can usually avoid CP'ing. His strength is that he is hard to take advantage of due to his abundance of options, odd weight class (makes him immune to things such as Fox's uthrow>uair), and potentially un-edgehoggable recovery. However, his biggest weakness is easily his lack of range so solid spacing is essential to not haphazardly run into the attacks of his opponents while still getting off big punishes through combos and edge guards. He can't "Mario" anyone to death because nothing about him is really "broken" like the other characters in or above his class so he demands a ridiculous amount of consistency to play at that level.
Though it is somewhat dated, Mango's bout as Scorpion Master showed that this character can do well in tournaments. And while Mango's talent as a player was important to make that a possibility, I do not believe it could have been replicated with any character that wasn't at least upper-mid tier material (such as Doc, Pikachu, and Samus) which, IMO, cements the fact that Mario is unjustly placed away from the proximity of his clone. Doc is already a "verge" character who has just enough problems to prevent him from being considered high tier whereas I believe Mario has just enough tools to cross that line.
TBH, I don't know a lot about Zelda so I have to admit she could potentially be better than I ranked her. I can definitely see her having even MUs vs. characters where spaced, single hits become important, but I simply find Zelda's neutral game to be among the worst of its kind and the issue will only become exasperated at high level competition.
No arguments regarding Link but Ganon is definitely worse than Young Link. For starters, claiming Ganon has more range is misleading. He may literally have more attack range than Young Link, but Young Link has more disjointed hitboxes. If we begin to factor in Young Link's projectiles, he instantly has more range to engage his enemy with than Ganon.
However, where Ganon becomes fundamentally worse than Young Link is through his restrictions as a character due to his mobility and defense. Ganon can be camped, easily edge guarded, and easily pressured while in shield. I don't see how Ganon will ever be able to overcome the Sheik MU if its played as abusively as possible. Young Link, on the other hand, at least has the option to abuse his projectiles and mobility to prevent his own exploitation from occurring.
On a side note, Samus also wrecks Ice Climbers.
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Legal_Action96
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2014
- Messages
- 6
I disagree about mario and doc. Doc is better in every matchup except for sheik, and actually tends to be the more well rounded of the two, only slightly losing to every top tier except puff who he beats. A lot of docs unique stuff is much more applicable against different characters whereas marios unique stuff is more niche. Mario is also worse against floaties, and slightly weaker than doc against faster falling characters. Marios grab game is probably his biggest difference, and the followups each mario gets from it determine the matchup imo. Docs is better for comboing and can lead to fair on most characters, but mario chaingrabs harder and can get smashes off of it on some characters like sheik, but the weird growth makes it suboptimal for comboing. Mario is also worse against marth by far, and likely ice climbers too. Doc plainly has more consistent grab punishes, a near equal combo game, better gimps, and a good projectile, whereas mario has a niche grab game that only works on some characters, a disjoint fsmash, and the better recovery. I agree with you that mario is underrated and much better than people give him credit for, and i dual main both with mario for the sheik mu, but against most characters whatever good mario has, doc has more of, and more favorable mus against marth and floaties. Even marios best mu sheik is still not too terrible for doc as he still has his kill set ups.Time to throw my hat in the ring I guess
1MachGO's 2014 Tier List (Like, comment, and subscribe lol)
So I have been playing, watching, and discussing this game for a handful of years now. I am no top player (and probably never will be) but I would like to think that I have finally acquired enough insight to produce a tier list based on educated, albeit, personal opinions.
Top Tier: Very Viable; can be used to win a tournament with little to no CPing
1. Falco
I stand by Falco being the best character in singles and have felt this way prior to M2K publicizing his own tier list. As good and as seemingly more well rounded Fox is, I find Falco to possess more reliable tools and require less effort at higher levels of play. Whereas Fox uses heavy amounts of mobility to win the neutral game, Falco can accurately shoot lasers and literally begin to infringe on his opponent's options from a safe distance. This isn't to say lasers are broken (in most MUs they aren't) but Falco's solution for the neutral game is far more effective and elegant than practically every other character's in the game. On top of that, he arguably has the most fearsome, all around combo game in the entire cast. His shine>dair and other combo strings are generally less affected by SDI than Fox and he can utilize platforms to extend punishes (Marth being the only character who can rival him in this regard). His recovery isn't generally as good as Fox's but it can be very reliable in certain situations.
In terms of match ups, I feel as though Falco's only bad match up is Samus which is still very winnable. He beats or goes even with every other character in the game.
2. Fox
Fox is a jack of all trades; master of some. His biggest strength is in his ability to respond to changing situations with an appropriate response and he gets huge mileage out of powerful assets such as his speed, upward killing ability, and versatility of shine. However, I feel like he is a character that often relies on nickel and dime'ing, baiting, and putting himself at risk. While players have been able to mitigate these issues, Fox will only become harder to be consistent with as players improve their ability to punish space animals and comprehend Fox's speed in the neutral game. If he had more natural advantages, such as a better attack range, I would more readily accept him as the best character in the game, but I find Falco to ultimately be the more reliable option. Especially if Marth develops in the Fox counter he is slowly appearing to be.
3. Sheik
Sheik, bar none, has the best MU spread in the entire cast. She is somewhat weak to the space animals and ICs but she counters practically every other character in the game which gives her insane implications in competitive settings. Simply put, If Fox and Falco didn't exist, Sheik would practically be god tier.
Even scarier is that Sheik's potential isn't as well realized as Fox and Falco's currently are. Not to downplay M2K's skill as a player, but he has essentially shown that this character can pretty much muscle into the top ranks of a tournament by abusing her punishes and edge game. If a player possessed mastery on not only that, but other facets of gameplay such as the neutral game, Sheik would look unfair.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) Sheik seems somewhat unpopular and definitely possesses a stigma for a multitude of reasons. As a result, she doesn't see as much representation at top levels of play as much as a character with her advantages should.
4. Marth
Marth has one bad match up: Sheik. When considering this fact, it is odd that he hasn't been considered 3rd best on principle alone. However, Marth has less "free" match ups than Sheik and is generally harder to play effectively (sorry Sheik players). With that said, PPMD's innovation with the character has convinced me that this character is amazing in floaty MUs which, combined with his great MUs vs. space animals, makes him more relevant than ever in the current metagame.
High Tier: Viable; Can win tournaments by themselves but may find it easier to utilize CPing for certain MUs
5. Jigglypuff
Puff loses to Young Link, Fox, Doc, and Marth (listed in order of severity). This, combined with a few other evenish MUs, firmly keeps Puff out of top tier. However, I still believe this character and her extremely polarized strengths make her GOOD and while Hungrybox's strategy is starting to be downloaded by various players, she definitely has enough untapped potential to keep her relevant and likely remain above the capabilities of her fellow high tier.
6. Peach
Despite having a few tough match ups and lacking some attack range, Peach has a very unique and very useful toolset. Armada has proven time and time again that this character can take it all, but I'm curious to see if other players can do it through different playstyles or if M2K was right in saying that Armada has "perfected" Peach. She is an interesting character, but I do feel that she is held back by some match ups (particularly the Puff hard counter) and she suffers from some consistency issues due to the random nature of turnips which can easily change a match.
7. Captain Falcon
The "Falcon isn't viable" bandwagon has always struck me as silly when considering how good this character's overall match ups are. He performs very well against characters like ICs, Peach, and Marth, as well as wrecking almost every character below him. Admittedly, he utilizes a high risk-high reward playstyle that makes him among the most difficult characters to play at top level, but the potential is still there for Falcon to succeed
8. Ice Climbers
While they can death touch their opponents and possess a seemingly limitless amount of desync techniques, Ice Climbers seem somewhat inconsistent. Most of top/high tier and a few other characters are able to effectively apply a kill-nana strategy and reduce the Ice Climbers to a low tier character. The limitations from managing Nana's AI combined with good opponent MU experience can make it extremely difficult to play this character at top level
9. Mario
This may be my most controversial ranking on my tier list. I had previously expressed my beliefs on Mario a few pages back, but for those of you who didn't read them, allow me to reiterate: Mario not being ranked more than one placement away from Doc is one of the strangest myths in this community. The differences between these characters, while important, are not significant enough to change their viability drastically like Marth and Roy. Mario and Doc are, at the simplest level, interchangeable based on preference.
My take on the clones is that Mario is the very average, but well rounded character, while Doc is the slightly tilted version of his original self. What Doc has gained in single hit power, edge guarding, and projectile viability, he has lost in regards to some of his frame data, recovery, and combo opportunity. These changes then translate into their match ups. Doc has more winning match ups, but Mario has less losing ones.
IMO, Mario's scenario is more valuable than Doc's and is enough to push him over the edge into the very bottom of high tier. His only losing MUs, imo, are probably Marth and maybeeee Falco. This is actually far less than the rest of high tier, but I feel as though Mario's failing is in his difficulty to play. Even if Mario is somewhat hard to exploit, he has to WORK in most of his even match ups to get a strong conversion.
Mid Tier: Somewhat viable, but have noticeable weaknesses or match ups which prevent them from realistically being consistently represented at top level of competition
10-11. Doc
Pretty self explanatory. This character will proceed to fall of the wayside now that Shroomed isn't really using him, but he actually has some pretty decent MUs. He seems to go even with the space animals and does well against Puff and ICs. He doesn't lose to anyone outside of high and top tier.
10-11. Pikachu
I hate to be that guy who thinks a character is better based off one tournament, but I actually think Pikachu is just as good as Doc now. Axe has broken the plateau he seemingly had and it has led me to rethink Pikachu's ability to compete. I believe Sheik counters him and he slightly loses to Falco and Doc while going evenish with the rest of high/top tier. The character lacks range, seems reliant one edge guards, and can look like a bad Fox at times, but his solid mobility and amazing recovery may be enough to offset these issues.
12. Samus
Not too much to say here. Samus has an amazing amount of defensive options and has her mixed bag of good and bad match ups like a typical mid tier. She does possess some hidden potential, such as her bomb landing, but I feel like her poke game and inherently attrition-based style will prevent her from being as reliable as a high or top tier character
13. Yoshi
Yoshi is a character we have limited data on to begin with and if Wife was right about this summer being aMSa's last, we'll never truly understand Yoshi's potential. Yoshi is a character with top tier defensive capabilities while possessing a strong neutral, punish, and edge game. His recovery is ultimately flawed and the difficulty of playing the character consistently may be unrealistic. I would say that he definitely loses to Falco and Sheik with the remainder of high/top tier match ups being tipped gently out of his favor at least (ICs may be even though). He belongs in mid tier, IMO
14. Young Link
Young Link has a great close range recovery, good match ups vs. floaties, a solid edge game, and extremely versatile projectiles. His potential based on his projectile game and mobility leads me to believe he is highly underrated and far less gimmicky than those listed below him. He may have to resort to an extremely patient camping game to overcome his worst match ups, however.
15. Luigi
Super polarized character with crazy ground mobility, aerials, and good combos. However, his recovery is unreliable and I find him easy to exploit when he is in a bad position or through his flawed recovery.
16. Ganondorf
Ganon's reliance on single hits and edge guarding doesn't inherently make him terrible, but certainly difficult to play at high level. Coupled with his exploitable recovery, speed, and weight class, I would say Ganon is generally at the disadvantage in most match ups; putting him at the bottom of mid tier.
Low Tier: AKA Fatally Flawed Tier (unordered)
Link
Though I stated these characters are unranked, IMO, Link has the dubious honor of being the best non-viable character. He has a decent toolset of projectiles, disjointed attacks, and a decent recovery, but he lacks the mobility/frame data to be relevant in the current meta. His best match ups are primarily against characters who his younger counterpart tends to be better at by default. Its sad because it honestly wouldn't have taken much to made Link viable (see: Project: M)
Donkey Kong
Bad hitboxes (and hurtboxes), a limited recovery, and just a restricted toolset in general, DK scrapes by with the power of cargo throw and a few other moves. DK's lack of options are easily exploited and ultimately cause him to suffer from some really bad MUs.
Mr. Game and Watch
Of the low tier who suffer from fatal flaws, Mr. G&W is the most tragic. A few numerical changes and he'd be a solid mid tier at worst. Despite having one of the fastest OoS options in the game, powerful, disjointed attacks, and an amazing grab game, G&W has terrible tech roll data, a useless hard shield, and the inability to L-Cancel most of his aerials. Defense is absolutely his worst trait, and nearly every character in the game can exploit his low, combo friendly weight and terrible shield. Of all the low tiers, I feel the worst for G&W.
Mewtwo
Great recovery, interesting mobility, solid aerials, attack range, and throws. Unfortunately he is a huge target with a crappy weight and low BKB attacks which makes him highly exploitable in the long run
Pichu
Despite having a decent recovery and fast movement speed, it is only a crutch for Pichu's enormous flaws. He is incredibly restricted and his over reliance on mediocre attacks prevent him from every achieving viability
Ness
Ness actually has excellent mobility via DJC and some great aerials to boot. His biggest issue is his recovery, IMO, which makes Ness extremely easy to exploit
Garbage Tier: Doesn't have a prayer (unordered)
Zelda
RoyExtreme reliance on bair, fair, dsmash, and a few other moves (such as down b). Zelda has a good recovery but her mobility is poor all around and she can be outmaneuvered by just about every character in the game. I can't see her realistically having a positive match up against any character.
I played Roy a lot as a kid but I will be the first to admit that he is utter trash. Despite his disjointed aerials and a few good moves such as dtilt and fsmash, Drunk Marth is weighed down by his terrible recovery, weak sourspot, and a combo friendly weight/fallspeed class. He is extremely easy to counter attack through shielding and CCing which forces him to rely on his grab and dtilt to begin conversions.
Kirby
Almost exclusively limited to a poke game. Kirby has decent tilts but has few reliable ways to create conversions. His recovery is also surprisingly bad
Bowser
Extremely slow and limited. His up-b OoS is good but I can't see anything really connecting unless his opponent let him
Another thing, the more ive played with the two, the more i begin to think marios combo game really isnt any better than docs. Docs is far more optimalized, he gets more percent off of chains in the long run, and his combos end with the opponent being in a more favorable place. His smashes have more knockback and he has more percent all around, his utilt wont send the opponent into the air where he has trouble following up, and he gets fairs off of throws, usmash, the back hitbox of utilt, and even techchases. His uairs will lead to smash attacks easier and fairs off of bad di, and since his attacks have lower trajectories on average the opponent will end up on the ground most of the time; where doc likes being most. Mario doesnt really have any true combos that are unique from doc. His uair combos into other uairs more cleanly, but he rarely will get a third hit on anyone except ganon if they di well. His utilt and fair will only true combo into one extra hit at low or mid percents and are useless at high percents, mario relies on a lot of tech chasing and jabs thrown in mid string to get a long combo, and in that aspect hes hardly different at all from doc. Lastly his throws are so weird that by the time they send the opponent high enough to combo off of, their percent is already so high that he cant combo off of. His utilt and fair are hugely overrated except on fastfallers where they are only good techchase starters if you want a long punish, and even then doc has meaner things he can do to fast fallers. Id like to hear from someone that isnt a rookie why marios combo game is so fantastical. I mean i agree its pretty good, but so is docs.
Legal_Action96
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2014
- Messages
- 6
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
I don't really see how Yoshi is too low. It is possible to get around parrying and double jump super-armor baits: just be patient. It showed at MLG.
Not sure about Mario being too high either. He is a decent mid-tier character, he has a better recovery than both Yoshi and Ganon as well as a better projectile than Yoshi and more movement than Ganon.
Hmmm, I can see what you mean now. I still feel like Ganon's range, while not disjointed, is better than Y. Link's in many more matchups though. Y. Link may have bombs and his boomerang, but I don't think they're good enough to zone out many of the top characters, like Falco, Fox, Falcon. Puff and Peach are the only characters that have some marginal trouble getting past their trajectories. Maybe it's just me, as I have yet to see a Y. Link make it out of a Falco / Sheik matchup, where I've seen some Ganon's win by using their massive hitboxes and power to their advantage in these.
Fortress | Sveet
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This is an interesting case study.
My answer is to consider how popular the character is in the population. If by "very popular" you mean one of the top tiers, then the percentage could be high.
We can agree that A's average matchup ratio is 40:60, since it is that number in every case. To calculate B's, each ratio would be multiplied against the percentage of the population it represents, added up, and averaged. In order for the single 70:30 matchup to make B's average equal to 40:60, the 70:30 matchup must constitute 25% of the total population.
[30:70] x (0.75) + [70:30] x (0.25) = [40:60]
So I guess my answer would be, it depends. If that lone 70:30 matchup happens 25% or more, then i'd say yes, strictly based on the numbers.
But this is a very extreme example, I can't imagine a character that loses 70:30 to Marth, Sheik, Falco, Peach, Puff, .... Pichu, but happens to DEMOLISH Fox. How does this theoretical character have a strategy that fails horribly vs everyone good and bad, but happens to work perfectly on the #1? In real examples a character having a good matchup with a top tier is highlighting something that works exceptionally well there specifically, but also works moderately well in their other matchups.
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Stevo
Smash Champion
You're right, it is an extreme example.
I think why I bring this up is I think it can apply to real scenarios, just in a smaller scale.
In a case like Mario, he is not great and not terrible against most characters. However, many people will not choose to play Mario because he has no glaring strong matchups, despite perhaps not having many weak matchups either. (I'm sure some people would disagree, but for the sake of argument assume this to be true)
We see Armada pick up Young Link and use him against Jiggs to cover a bad matchup for Peach. In my mind, this makes Young Link seem much more useful in a competitive setting. With the counterpick system we have in place, I am not sure how valuable a balanced character is, but is this what we are evaluating in a tier list? Or are we saying Given a random opponent taken from the current population of smashers, X character has a more likely chance of winning than Y character.
Some people like to bring up that certain characters have never won a large scale tournament,or top 8 or what have you, as an argument. I think how well a character places in tournaments is important, obviously, but (again, for the sake of argument assume this is true) Mario being more balanced than younglink could mean that a mario main may place higher than a young link main in a given tournament, but we could see Young Link in the grand finals.
I think I may be rambling now, so I'll stop here.
thoughts?
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A tier list is an ranking of characters from best to worst, based on their ability to perform in the current tournament metagame.
Armada's YL is only seen against one player, he can't play it against any fox, falco or sheik that gets into brackets. YL'S overall matchup spread is really poor, but he has even-ish matchups with slow floaty chars like peach, puff and Ganon so he made it to the top of the low tiers.
Where young link wins by abusing projectiles and speed, Mario wins with fundamentals and abusing his above average normals. He loses to the characters above him, but there are no hopeless matchups there. He can invalidate a lot of the low tiers with CC dsmash alone, and he has chain grabs and death combos to boot.
It may seem that YL is a very useful character to learn, but in reality it's not. Puff is the least commonly played top tier, and the matchup is definitely not auto win. I usually hear it's about even or slightly in puffs favor. If you're going to cop out and switch characters to beat puff, your time is better spent playing fox
Armada's YL is only seen against one player, he can't play it against any fox, falco or sheik that gets into brackets. YL'S overall matchup spread is really poor, but he has even-ish matchups with slow floaty chars like peach, puff and Ganon so he made it to the top of the low tiers.
Where young link wins by abusing projectiles and speed, Mario wins with fundamentals and abusing his above average normals. He loses to the characters above him, but there are no hopeless matchups there. He can invalidate a lot of the low tiers with CC dsmash alone, and he has chain grabs and death combos to boot.
It may seem that YL is a very useful character to learn, but in reality it's not. Puff is the least commonly played top tier, and the matchup is definitely not auto win. I usually hear it's about even or slightly in puffs favor. If you're going to cop out and switch characters to beat puff, your time is better spent playing fox