2013 Community Tier List

[AceMan]

I don't mean to be annoying but is there going to be a new tier list soon, because this one is almost a year old and I also feel too many upsets and certain changes in the metagame have happened that make a new tier list necessary.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Just want to point out that Armada did beat hbox's fox for what that's worth

 

[Bones0]

I don't mean to be annoying but is there going to be a new tier list soon, because this one is almost a year old and I also feel too many upsets and certain changes in the metagame have happened that make a new tier list necessary.

Pretty much everyone will put Fox, Falco, and Sheik as top 3 no matter what upsets and or changes have occurred in the metagame. You can post your own list if you want, but I really don't see the purpose in another tier list that isn't based directly off of results with respect to base populations of each character.

 

[AceMan]

Pretty much everyone will put Fox, Falco, and Sheik as top 3 no matter what upsets and or changes have occurred in the metagame. You can post your own list if you want, but I really don't see the purpose in another tier list that isn't based directly off of results with respect to base populations of each character.

That's not true, sure everyone will put Fox and Falco in 1 or 2 but not everyone thinks sheik is in top 3, Mew2King, the best Sheik in the world doesn't even think she is 3rd, he thinks that she is 4th

 

[Bones0]

That's not true, sure everyone will put Fox and Falco in 1 or 2 but not everyone thinks sheik is in top 3, Mew2King, the best Sheik in the world doesn't even think she is 3rd, he thinks that she is 4th

M2K is one individual... And putting Sheik 4th as opposed to 3rd is a very minor difference. FFS as top 3 is still by far the most common opinion. EventHubs actually added Melee tiers and the top 3 are, by a wide margin, FFS...

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssbm/

 

[1MachGO]

Mario vs. Doc stuff

I've already talked about Mario vs. Doc a few pages back so I don't really want to go into much depth on this topic. I'll address some major points of contention though

Mario and Doc's match ups
I would like to point out that there are only five MUs where I think Doc loses. They are Falco, Marth, Sheik, Falcon, and Mario. Doc does better or the same than Mario in every other MU.

My belief is that Mario performs identical vs. Falco, does better vs. Marth (still loses though) and goes even vs. Sheik and Falcon. The rest of Mario's MUs vs. viable and mid tier characters are even.

I could list specifics, but the general reasoning for Doc having losing and winning MUs is because he isn't well rounded; his single hit game is well above average and his recovery is well below average. He has more opportunity to exploit and be exploited. Mario, on the otherhand, is so overwhelmingly average that this isn't the case.

Grab games
If we were to simplify their grab games, Mario has the better low percent grab game since his dthrow and uthrow don't scale as high giving him more combo and cg potential. Doc's grab game is superior at high percent since he has the reliable fair set up and stronger fthrow/bthrow.

The problem with emphasizing their grab games as a matchup determinant is that you're implying they have a reliable way to get grabs. Their average mobility coupled with a shameful grab range gives them little leeway to approach with grabs like Marth, Falcon, or Fox. Their bait and punish game is essentially the same and generally dependent on opponent skill so it ultimately comes down to their ability to lead into grabs. I would say both characters rely on aerial>grab and jab>grab tremendously. However, Mario's jab is objectively better and his uair, fair, and bair are all safer on shield and the latter two are superior lead ins for grab to begin with. Couple that with Mario's ability to perform grab follow ups from utilt at low percent or usmash grounded fast fallers, he has more options to connect grab.

So even if you find Doc's grab game "better", Mario's is technically more reliable by virtue of the fact he has more ways of landing grab

The combo game
Mario's combo game is better because he has more combo openers and combo moves than Doc. Compare the capabilities of moves such as Doc's utilt, fair, and bair to those of Mario's. The changes are actually quite significant in regards to each move's respective utility. In a game like smash, you need reliable launchers to start combos. Since the combo capabilities of Doc's utilt and usmash are most reliable when the opponent is already above Doc, his best "ground" launcher becomes grab which can be extremely hard to get. Doc is better off converting stray hits into edge guards.

 

[Logz]

Mind explaining how Mario is even with Sheik and Falcon and not Doc? I could understand Mario losing against Sheik a little less than Doc does (same w/ Falcon), but I'm not understanding how Mario is better against the two when he literally has only 1 kill option against both of them...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

He means "even" in the sense that Mario does just as good as Doc in that situation. Not that the actual matchup is even.

 

[Logz]

He means "even" in the sense that Mario does just as good as Doc in that situation. Not that the actual matchup is even.

Are you sure? It's not worded in that sense.

 

[UberMadman]

Pretty much everyone will put Fox, Falco, and Sheik as top 3 no matter what upsets and or changes have occurred in the metagame. You can post your own list if you want, but I really don't see the purpose in another tier list that isn't based directly off of results with respect to base populations of each character.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that most people don't want a tier list update for changes to the top 3, it's the lower tier characters that need to be moved around a lot. In fact, I would even go so far to say the current tier list is un-egg-ceptable.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Are you sure? It's not worded in that sense.

Ya I re-read it a few times, and I think you're right now.

"My belief is that Mario performs identical vs. Falco, does better vs. Marth (still loses though) and goes even vs. Sheik and Falcon. The rest of Mario's MUs vs. viable and mid tier characters are even."

Had he meant sheik and falcon were the same for mario as doc, he would have grouped them when he was talking about falco.

I too would like to see reasoning for Mario having an even matchup in those cases. I can see his range being an advantage he has over doc, but i definitely don't think mario is 50:50 with sheik.

And on combo games from both characters, it definitely should be noted that doc has guaranteed throw->fair at kill percent on virtually every character. This is the biggest reason doc > mario

 

[BO/\K]

His point about Mario being more capable of landing grabs definitely has some merit and is worth discussing. While Doc does have throw->fair kills, Mario has fair and jab -> grab which are more reliable than Doc's options into grabs. Also Mario has a CG and strong grab punish game on Sheik fwiw.

 

[TheDuckChris]

I would even go so far to say the current tier list is un-egg-ceptable.

Why is no one talking about this pun

 

[UberMadman]

Why is no one talking about this pun

Probably because of my scrambled delivery.

 

[Logz]

His point about Mario being more capable of landing grabs definitely has some merit and is worth discussing. While Doc does have throw->fair kills, Mario has fair and jab -> grab which are more reliable than Doc's options into grabs. Also Mario has a CG and strong grab punish game on Sheik fwiw.

But how does that make Mario even with Sheik, let alone Falcon? I'm pretty sure Sheik wins the matchup regardless of Mario having better grabs on her. Grabs alone won't convince me that Mario is even with Sheik considering his garbage grab and attack range (which is comparable to Doc obviously.)

 

[Bones0]

Probably because of my scrambled delivery.

Why do I get the feeling the next dozen pages will have people cracking jolks? It doesn't even matter how bad they are. I'm still sitting here dying. Omelette you guys finish, but 20eggseggs was one of the best egg puns of all time!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

These puns are eggsasperating

Mods please close this thread

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

These puns are eggsasperating

Mods please close this thread

What do you mean? This thread is really starting to come out of its shell

 

[Boondocker]

What do you mean? This thread is really starting to come out of its shell

Yeah and its cracking me up! If this gets closes I'm yolking somebody up!

 

[UberMadman]

What have I done...

 

[DavemanCozy]

It may seem that YL is a very useful character to learn, but in reality it's not. Puff is the least commonly played top tier, and the matchup is definitely not auto win. I usually hear it's about even or slightly in puffs favor. If you're going to cop out and switch characters to beat puff, your time is better spent playing fox

I think everyone should just play characters they enjoy. No need to say "learning another character but Fox is a waste of time," that's the kind of mindset that gets stale meta-games that don't evolve. It's not like this is Brawl where it's MK or bust, there are more characters besides Fox out there who are viable, as well as smashers who don't like playing as Fox. That's what I think makes Melee a beautiful game, there's something for everyone.

I do agree on the Jiggs vs Y. Link matchup, it is an advantage for Jigglypuff, arguably a small one. I can definitely see the matchup being Jiggs 60:40 Y. Link.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No need to say "learning another character but Fox is a waste of time,"

I didn't say that. I said, If you're going to cop out and switch characters to beat puff, your time is better spent playing fox.

 

[Bones0]

Not sure I agree. Just based on how the mu works, it seems like a person with a secondary YL will fare MUCH better than a secondary Fox. If we were talking about maining YL vs. maining Fox I'd agree Fox is a more solid pick, but unless you main him (and even if you do), you probably aren't going to be as well versed in the mu as Jiggs players are vs. Fox. Playing YL not only prevents the Jiggs from having more experience vs. your character, but you will probably be better at the actual mu even if their Puff is overall better than your YL. I think if Axe just played campier with his YL, he would easily do better than his Fox would even with generous amounts of practice vs. Puff.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If it were two even matchups, and you argued that picking the lower tier favored you most because of matchup inexperience, I might agree (at least for short term wins). But Fox is puff's worst matchup, at something like 70:30, while YL and puff go roughly even. Do you really think its a good idea to use a low tier secondary vs someone's high tier main? I always would favor the person playing their main unless their is a big skill difference. Thats why I argue that if you're going to switch to a secondary to win a matchup, you better be picking the best character for the job (aka Fox).

As for Axe specifically, between playing Pikachu vs Puff or YL vs Puff, I think his pikachu has the best chance. The match-ups are pretty similar and Hbox has more [quality] experience vs YL than Axe has with YL against puff. But where is Hbox going to get pikachu experience that mimics playing Axe's? Also, Axe isn't the type of person to be able to break Hbox with an ultra campy style, his skills are more in the pressure/aggression category.

I also wouldn't suggest Axe play Fox against hbox, since he already has a roughly even matchup with his main. The thing preventing him from winning is not his character, but his strategy/skill. Axe is very good though, and I hope he can pull off this win at EVO!

 

[Bones0]

If it were two even matchups, and you argued that picking the lower tier favored you most because of matchup inexperience, I might agree (at least for short term wins). But Fox is puff's worst matchup, at something like 70:30, while YL and puff go roughly even. Do you really think its a good idea to use a low tier secondary vs someone's high tier main? I always would favor the person playing their main unless their is a big skill difference. Thats why I argue that if you're going to switch to a secondary to win a matchup, you better be picking the best character for the job (aka Fox).

As for Axe specifically, between playing Pikachu vs Puff or YL vs Puff, I think his pikachu has the best chance. The match-ups are pretty similar and Hbox has more [quality] experience vs YL than Axe has with YL against puff. But where is Hbox going to get pikachu experience that mimics playing Axe's? Also, Axe isn't the type of person to be able to break Hbox with an ultra campy style, his skills are more in the pressure/aggression category.

I also wouldn't suggest Axe play Fox against hbox, since he already has a roughly even matchup with his main. The thing preventing him from winning is not his character, but his strategy/skill. Axe is very good though, and I hope he can pull off this win at EVO!

I wasn't suggesting Axe shouldn't just use Pikachu. I just used him as a basis for YL secondary vs. Fox secondary. I guess I could also use Armada as an example as well, but he's stuck with YL vs. Hbox without even trying out his Fox (unless he did it at CEO; I haven't watched all the vids yet). If he does try Fox in the future, I think he would probably win, but I predict he'd drop more games than his YL would. He'd also be using Fox almost exclusively for Hbox so he'd be able to study his habits and punishes. YL's more linear strategy in the mu would surely benefit the player vs. a larger variety of Puff players.

If you really think Fox vs. Puff is a 70-30 mu, then idk what to tell you. If I thought it was that good, I'd agree that everyone should just use a pocket Fox over any other secondary. I think a lot of people overestimate the difficulty of Puff vs. Fox because Hbox simply isn't that good at the mu (I still think it's in Fox's favor though).

 

[ChivalRuse]

Changes that I would like to discuss:

After Ice Climbers: I think that Samus, Doc, then Pikachu is the correct order. Samus has insane survivability barring Fox/Pikachu up-smash, has close to even matchups vs Fox and Falco, decent matchups vs ALL the other high tier characters except Sheik. Samus also has several other factors that make her incredible which I am willing to discuss. Doc is below because he struggles on recovery and does not really transcend Samus's overall matchup spread. Pikachu is just the clear choice for the next spot because she can handle top tier matchups well (Ice Climbers and Sheik are certainly her most difficult opponents, but nobody else really is scary for her).

Honestly, Luigi needs to be above Ganon. I honestly don't know why Ganon has been so high on the list for so long. He is outright terrible against defensive playstyles because his approach game is too predictable. Young Link, Falco, Sheik, Peach, Mario, Link, Doc or anyone else that can run away and throw projectiles makes Ganon's life miserable. I understand the argument for "easy" KO's from his aerials and good grab combos. But honestly Ganon shouldn't be getting many grabs. Shield grabbing is not to be relied on and in neutral his wavedash to grab options are mediocre at best.

Luigi is just a solid character. Amazing mobility, amazing kill moves, decently hard to edgeguard (if you watch Abate's fireball to the ledge recoveries, you will probably agree). Honestly, skill is the limit for this character. Unlike Ganon, Luigi is not held back by being too slow. Luigi has great grab combos too, and a projectile to boot!

Young Link should be above Mario in my humble opinion. He just does so well vs floaties like Peach and Jiggs. And his nair and d-smash are great against fast-fallers. Better recovery than Mario and combos at least as well. His grab is the only reason why he isn't HIGHER on the tier list even than that for me at least.

Yoshi should be above DK and Link. If Amsa has taught us anything, it's that there is hidden potential to the character. His performance alone merits this move up 2 spots.

Mewtwo is better than Roy. Let's stop treating Roy like he matters.

All in all, this is my list:

Fox Falco Sheik Marth Jiggs Peach Falcon ICs Samus Doc Pikachu Luigi Ganon Young Link Mario Yoshi Link DK Zelda Mewtwo Roy Game and Watch Ness Bowser Pichu Kirby

 

[JKJ]

To say that Samus only struggles vs. Sheik is dishonest. Marth is terrible for her as well. As for Pikachu, Ice Climbers and Doc may be some of his hardest matches, but Sheik is terrible for him as well. I agree that Ganon sucks.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Marth is not that bad for Samus. Watch Plup vs any Marth and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[mYzeALot]

Samus loses to Sheik pretty badly, along with a noticeable disadvantage vs Falcon and Puff.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Samus does not lose to Puff >_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TqRLqOOBlE

And she can wreck Falcon pretty hard. Just depends on who knows that matchup better honestly.

 

[Bones0]

Samus does not lose to Puff >_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TqRLqOOBlE

And she can wreck Falcon pretty hard. Just depends on who knows that matchup better honestly.

Mahone just doesn't know the Samus matchup that well... A better comparison is obviously Hbox vs. Plup. I don't think it's THAT bad, but it definitely is in Puff's favor considering how high risk a lot of Samus's stuff is like grab and up-B OoS and how bad her recovery gets countered by Puff's edgeguarding.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth is not that bad for Samus. Watch Plup vs any Marth and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Watch <low tier master> against any <popular character> and you'll see how good the match-up is!

This argument is terrible. Of course the low tier player is going to know the match-up against the popular character! The outlier winning has very little to do with the match-up and much more to do with him outplaying the opponent, which includes making better reads/guesses.

I think a lot of people overestimate the difficulty of Puff vs. Fox because Hbox simply isn't that good at the mu (I still think it's in Fox's favor though).

If you think hbox is bad at the fox match-up, then i dont know how to even begin discussion... Hbox is literally the best puff against fox, to the point where many people misjudge how bad the match-up actually is for her. And yet, it is still very clear that puff loses on a fundamental level.

I was talking with TaFo at EVO and he went as far as to say that puff isn't a viable character because of her virtually unwinnable match-up with fox. His argument was that hbox beats the vast majority of fox players by outplaying them, but even now you see the gap closing. He said that before you would see hbox sweeping foxes, but now fox players from a caliber below hbox are consistently taking games, and that soon that gap will close completely.

I dont know if I agree to that extreme (I believe reads trump "perfect" play), but it is hard to refute the evidence. In any case, I think the fact that hbox beat armada's YL in 2 sets at EVO and lost to Mango's Fox in 2 sets shows how much better fox is than young link for the purpose of beating puff.

 

[SoniCraft]

Can we please just agree that Yoshi should go up a couple spots? Amsa put on too well of a display for us to just keep Yoshi as low as he is.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I got some heavy yoshi experience when I stayed in Flagstaff this week (thanks Angel!) so I guess I might as well speak my mind on the subject while its still fresh.

• For how good defensively he is, his approach is very exploitable. If your opponent forces you to chase them, it doesn't matter that you can parry their approaches. Obviously, Yoshi is most deadly when the opponent chases him, so the lead is doubly important to both sides of the matchup.
• His moves have surprisingly good priority, particularly below him (nair and dair) and behind him (nair and bair). He is weak moving forward because of his slow fair and his nair is the opposite of disjointed (unjointed?) in the front, but if you let him get into position he is really strong. His jab has a ton of range and his tilts are great on block as well as on hit. To my knowledge, his dtilt breaks everyone's CC at 0%. His fsmash has a lot of unique uses, since it has tuck back at the start and follows up with invincibility and huge range.
• He does have the potential for strong combos indiscriminately across the cast, especially on spacies and fatties, which is pretty useful. He struggles to kill sometimes, but if nothing else his nair and uair both outright KO by 150%. Dtilt, dsmash and double jump edgehog make edgeguarding pretty easy too.
• His recovery seems okay overall. Super armor makes his double jump virtually impossible to gimp, and downright stupid to attack at low percents, but it does nothing at all to help him at high percents. I guess this tends to give him relatively stable stocks as long as hes careful.
• I'm not sure what his overall match-up spread is like, but I don't think he has it that bad. Fox seems like his worst match-up by far, though I find Falco is quite good too. Marth is even-ish. I think he slightly beats peach if it comes down to a camp war (eggs trump turnips). Tom R and S2J eliminated VMan and amsa respectively, so I suppose Falcon does real well.

Using the first post tier list as the base, I would have to put Yoshi somewhere in bottom-middle of the A category. Right along side his buddies Mario and Luigi

 

[ChivalRuse]

Watch <low tier master> against any <popular character> and you'll see how good the match-up is!

This argument is terrible. Of course the low tier player is going to know the match-up against the popular character! The outlier winning has very little to do with the match-up and much more to do with him outplaying the opponent, which includes making better reads/guesses.

Or I could go with the old-fashioned "let's look at two players of similar skill level" idea.

Take some sets between respected Marth and Samus players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFxFQCcb8Ag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBBaNKmAN4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDAPjHF7oko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsxNTJoMC9k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q0wwNbY884

The trend that I'm seeing is very close matches but Samus is a better character over the long term in the matchup it seems because she can get kills more consistently than Marth. So maybe my argument using Plup was a bad one. But it was meant more to get people just to look at what Samus can do at the matchup to understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Samus is both floaty and heavy making her hard to kill, thats one of her main selling points. It allows her to take more risks with her pokes, which can be troubling for marth who doesn't like to trade. From my point of view, this gives Samus <low tier master> an advantage when going for reads and guesses.

The main problem I see samus having in the matchup in particular is moving forward. Other than dash attack/dash grab mixup, she is forced to shoot missiles to cover her front. This can be annoying for marth, but his sword is much more annoying to samus. And to top it off, marth is probably the second best for edgeguarding samus after sheik (maybe puff is better than marth idk)

I don't know what you're arguing, sorry for jumping in halfway into this discussion. My opinion is marth slightly beats samus, but its definitely winnable.

 

[ACDC]

I will offer my input but I may be biased towards characters that are heavily used in tournaments since I spend more time watching people play than playing myself since my hands are always shaking and I don't do very well. So here goes.

1. Falco. I think Mew2king has made his argument pretty clear. There's no point in repeating it. Falco is very technical so when he makes a mistake you need to know how to capitalize.

2. Fox. It is what it is. Fox is strong in most aspects, can mix up his recovery and has a punish game nearly as good as Falco. But he is in the top 5 hardest characters to learn to add balance to his high position.
3. Jigglypuff. I think the 10th tier list was right on by putting him at 3. He is extremely powerful in the right hands, but a few mistakes and you die very early. Can throw off your game with the slower pace if you don't know the matchup.
4. Marth. Solid spacing. Hard to fight without projectiles if he takes the lead.
5. Peach. Has a solid game against most characters but has strong counters such as Link. Peach can be used effectively against Sheik as we have seen many times with Armada vs Mew2king
6. Sheik has VERY solid matchups against low tiers + Yoshi but not so much against most top tiers. Up B Easily punishable but Ledge game makes up for it. A defensive Sheik is very strong, but boring to watch.
7. Yoshi. Can be used effectively against any charcter exept peach and sheik. Has amazing untapped potential mined by Amsa right now. Probably the hardest character in the game to learn because he's different in every aspect from other characters. Requires alot of dedication and is hard to use unless he's the only character you use because you will get mixed up unless you become very good. But your opponent will be thrown off by it as well so if you can achieve that, you're very good.
8. Ice Climbers. Has a high learning curve that hits a plateau once you get very high. At that point it's all about mind games and with 2 characters it has alot of potential we haven't seen alot of yet. Wobbling is also good, but nana is too easy to kill.

From here down the tournament viablility is questionnable but not out of the question.

9. Samus. Very effective against fox. Probably 55:45 in the favour of Samus but no one dares to speak against Fox. Samus can mix up his recovery with grab and down B. That and his floaty and yet heavy build makes him very good in the hand of players such a Duck.

10. Captain Falcon. Relies too heavily on reads and tech rolls, but if you make a mistake you will get a heavy blow from any good Falcon. He has a medium ground game but in the air he will wreck you. You don't want to trade a Falcon when he's at lower percents becaause he can regain position faster than you. Probably overrated but very fun to watch.
11. Link. Gets punished hard when he misses an attack and that's why he's so low on the tier list. But he can effectively destroy anyone under him in my tier list at at least a 50% rate with the exeption of Ganondorf. Sadly we don't have top players using Link but we can look at SAUS if we want a glimpse at his great potential.

12. Luigi. Best wavedash of the game. Has very unorthodox movement and with good reflexes he can be a terror on the battlefield. His nair is very good but Luigi gets KO'd vertically very easily.

13. Ganondorf. For a slow character, he's very solid with L-cancel and Wavedashes/Wavelands. His KO power is one of the best in the game but his combo game is lacking. He destroys Young Link it's not even funny.

From here down the characters are not tournament viable unless used as a counterpick or if you have more skill than your opponents.

14. Pikachu. Unreliable but can gimp easily if you get your opponent off the stage. Can counter Falcon on FD with changrabs. Since Link is the same weight I assume it's possible with him too.

15. Young Link. The counterpick guy. He has very good and very bad matchups and nothing really in between. You want to use him against Peach and Jigglypuff. Against campy Jigglypuffs you can finally play their game and let the timer run out. A pocket Young Link is also very useful to kill DK. Down tilt automatically kills a DK during an up B even if he jumps after getting hit to avoid the "spike" because he has no vertical recovery. Young Link also destroys the two Marios, Luigi, Ice climbers and anything under him on the tier list. Young Link gets wrecked 75:25 by any other characters and that's why you can't main him, especially because most of his worst weaknesses are the most used characters.

16. Dr. Mario. The most overrated character on the tier list. He has nothing extraordinary but no obvious flaws. His consistency is the only thing going for him. Dr. Mario is less affected by matchups and maps than most characters because of his well rounded nature

17. Mario. The character I have played the most against. He has no potential, but he's not horrible. His recovery is alot better than Dr. mario but his lack of finisher attack until high percents puts him lower than the Doc. You will need to use grabs alot with Mario so he's better against people that shield alot.

Anything under this has absolutely no potential whatsoever unless you're more skilled than your opponent.

18. Donkey Kong. Probably the only character in the no potential section that could jump into the OK characters.
19. Mewtwo.
20. Roy.
21. Ness. Over Pichu because his down B can take care of electricity.
22. Pichu. Because Pikachu is better in every aspect, I think he's biased against.
23. Bowser.
23. Zelda. Tied with Bowser
25. Game and Watch. Worst shield in game and dies early. We all agree that he's low but I think he still gets too much credit.
26. Kirby.

As I become better in the game my understanding of how things work is better too. Here's my new tier list, it's closer to the real tier list but still not quite. Why is my tier list so far off from the original? Am I not seeing something?

1. Fox.

2. Falco.

3. Sheik

4. Marth.

5. Peach.

6. Jigglypuff.

7. Captain Falcon.

8. Pikachu.

9. Ice Climbers.

10. Yoshi.

11. Samus.

From here down the tournament viablility is still strong, but not as much.


12. Ganondorf.

13. Luigi.

14. Doc Mario.


From here down the characters are not tournament viable but still stong in the right hands.


15. Young Link.

16. Link.

17. Mario.

18. Roy.


Anything under this has absolutely no potential whatsoever unless you're more skilled than your opponent.


19. Ness.
20. DK.
21. G&W.
22. Mewtwo.
23. Bowser.
24. Zelda.
25. Pichu.
26. Kirby.

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ Yoshi is not good enough to be above Samus, Doc, Luigi or Ganon. Nor is Pikachu remotely as high as you have placed him.

@ Sveet: I'm just arguing that Samus vs Marth is not a terrible matchup for Samus (trying to justify my placement of her above characters she traditionally might not be regarded as better than, like Doc or Ganon). JKJ was saying Marth was a bad matchup for Samus or something. It's close to even in my opinion.

 

[JKJ]

^ Yoshi is not good enough to be above Samus, Doc, Luigi or Ganon. Nor is Pikachu remotely as high as you have placed him.

@ Sveet: I'm just arguing that Samus vs Marth is not a terrible matchup for Samus (trying to justify my placement of her above characters she traditionally might not be regarded as better than, like Doc or Ganon). JKJ was saying Marth was a bad matchup for Samus or something. It's close to even in my opinion.

I think that Samus v. Marth is a bad matchup for Samus. IMO, from watching and playing the matchup a good deal, i'd say it's 65-35 for Marth. Sheik v. Samus, on the other hand, is 70-30 for Sheik.

Puff v. Samus is probably 60-40 for Puff.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What is your basis for thinking that Marth vs Samus is 65-35? I want direct matchup related reasoning or I'm not buying it.

The reason why I think that is basically an even matchup is firstly because I have played it myself and struggled to beat Samus as Marth. Whereas when I play Sheik I can win with considerable less difficulty over Samus. Marth's forward-air is nice and all, but a Samus who is not terrible will constantly be moving, and they will always attempt to stay just barely outside of your f-air range. Downtilt and grab are good options for Marth as well, but down-tilt doesn't have that much reward and can occasionally get you d-smashed with bad DI if Samus is quick to react with her own ground options. Samus f-tilt comes out faster than any of Marth's moves barring jab, and has massive range. It can keep you pinned by the edge with repeated use and is very hard to break through. Any time that Samus gets ANY stray hit, she either gets to charge her shot for free or gets amazing positioning by chasing you with auto cancelled missiles. Grabbing and u-throwing Samus doesn't get you guaranteed juggle setups because of her bomb maneuverability.

You have to rack up so much damage on Samus before your hits send her anywhere, and even if you do send her offstage, she can just recover high and make it hard for you to lock her down on the edge.

Marth's recover is actually much easier to edgeguard than Samus's, despite what others may have said. In short, Samus has better survivability, advantage in neutral because of projectiles, and gets more from her hits because they set her up for missile pressure for free.

Thus she can hang with a top tier like Marth.