2013 Community Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

Glory to the Hypnoraynex

 

[RaynEX]

He's got lots of swag though which is pretty important if your decisions are based on arbitrary whims. See: RaynEX.

Nah, you've got it all wrong man. I'm about well-reasoned risk v reward; its impossible to operate on fanciful designs and strategies with how good people are. This isn't 2008.

edit: Yeah Pichu is ass

 

[Deleted member]

You still got huge swag and i'm not taking it back lol

 

[TheLegendaryKRB]

Honestly, I think there are none. However, if I had to make a choice, I'd always prefer Falcon as an opponent over anybody else. I feel like given the fact kirby plays the MU perfectly, he has an answer against any of falcons options.
I'm not gonna write down everything, but the general idea is:
if he comes to grab, you can crouch it and give him a tilt/your own grab
if he comes with an aerial, you can shield, WD ooS and youre in safety. you might even punish his approach by shieldgrabbing etc. if his spacing is bad.
most falcons will eventually start coming from above, which is where it becomes a bit more difficult, however timing your utilts perfectly should outprioritize everything falcon has and whenever you feel like you don't have the time for utilt you still have your shield.

On top of that, Kirbys backair, uair and dair make for very good chances of simply edgeguarding Falcon after a backthrow or anything similar.
That being said, I've lost to many falcon players who were simply better than me. It doesn't hurt as much as constantly dying to spacies though, since at least in theory you had options in the MU.

Its Roy and Bowser which seem legitimate. I already said it but just in case you didnt see :3

 

[R0Y]

I could see Shiek, Falco, and Fox trading places for years. They're all extremely good and Shiek was considered #1 for years was she not?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik is amazing

 

[RayMyFurio]

V3ctorman got bracket at P5.
We heard about leffen's Yoshi in Europe and it won some half decent medium-sized locals.
Unfortunately, we never saw Leffen's Yoshi here. Having said that, I think it's understandable that leffen wouldn't use Yoshi over Fox here if he's a Fox main -- he's going to play that over here in his sets since he gets to come here once a year and Yoshi is a stupidly technically demanding character in some very unique ways (also Sheik doesn't suck here).
A year or so later, Amsa showed some potential to people at EVO but didn't have much in the way of raw results.
About six months after, Amsa produced some nice raw results at APEX 2014.

Even if we included Scorp-a-dorp's results and other stuff, when was the last time that Mario did anything remotely interesting? Or was shown to be capable of competing at high level with the more competitive characters? I understand that Ganon has a respectable history of doing well and Kage is a beast so I'm willing to explore that avenue of this conversation. But Mario doesn't. And I think his lack of development outside of his basics is to blame -- his simplistic, balanced design is beginning to catch up to him.

edit:

Shooting lasers so the character with weak mobility has to play an awkward footsie vs Fox's ridiculous dash dance control suite also beats Mario pretty badly too so I'm not really interested in the argument that, "Yoshi gets destroyed when he has to approach." Because duh. So does Mario. So does basically every character who HAS to approach Fox when that happens. That's why (among other reasons) Fox is stupid.

I feel Yoshi can counter-camp a lot of characters with his eggs too, and they hit people who go on platforms. The latter is especially important because it gives him answers to people who use the platform movements to reset position (which is a big part of passive play). Not only does this give him decent answers to a common maneuver in prolonged defensive patterns, but his eggs have the bonus of not requiring him to stick his hurtbox in that immediate vicinity (which is a big deal -- ask anyone who's ever been platform camped by Falco). Yoshi has luxuries that many characters simply do not have.

I do agree with you in that I think Yoshi's dependency on his actual attacks is a big weakness. But I feel his flexibility with his movement affords him some ways to make it work in the long run and part of this is from having an air grab -- I strongly feel having an air grab is a much bigger utility in this game than people realize. Then again I'm crazy and think Kirby's inhale is good rofl.

Do you even play this game? Because the last time I checked mario went even with spacies (if youre good) and is better than straight up garbage like yoshi. Next well see people like you start claiming roy is top tier and above mario because some korean kid gets a half decent place with him at a tournament. (9th at apex) if results are all you understand then im winning mlg and evo to prove marios worth. Hes not as good as doc admittedly but hes not dk tier either and id argue as good as pikachu. If any of you scrubs disagree feel free to mm me at mlg and evo you can pick op characters like sheik all you want but i am the jesus of melee and the prophet doesnt drop sets to no trickery. #get at me #the blue mario

 

[KirbyKaze]

Obvious troll is obvious.

 

[RayMyFurio]

Give me your phone number ill call you to prove im not a troll

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Man kk is mad good he took my dollar in a mm.

And honestly it's the year of da srcub so idk if You're one









But watch out they're around



Now to be productive with oxygen.

One of the biggest selling points of asma's yoshi was his platform camping/stalling, where's sheild drop after any attack and abuse 2nd jump as needed.

Air grabs and waveland grabs are reasonable anwers but to a degree predictable. What are some other means of dealing with it because if You don't it's much harder to control the middle in the long run.

And not vs just yoshi

 

[Oskurito]

Based on what I've seen at the latest tournaments apex 2014 and KoC3 I think Y.Link and Yoshi deserve a higher spot.

Now that hax is going fox, something tells me that falcon is going to drop a bit.

But I still totally agree with what mango said a while ago in this thread, that the more skilled you're at the game the less tier list like this matter.

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

Based on what I've seen at the latest tournaments apex 2014 and KoC3 I think Y.Link and Yoshi deserve a higher spot.

Now that hax is going fox, something tells me that falcon is going to drop a bit.

But I still totally agree with what mango said a while ago in this thread, that the more skilled you're at the game the less tier list like this matter.

I agree with yoshi being better than public opinion, ive always beleived him to be a mid tier character and hes shown to be strong even before amsa took 9th. He punishes and kills way better than the other low tiers and has a strong neutral.

I agree with young link as well, though how much higher he should be is debatable and still requires more players and more footage before it can be decided. I feel like the better people believe a character is the better people will do with him. Confidence in your character choice is very important to success, a defeatist attitude will always hold a player back no matter how you try to get around it.

Also mario might be too low. Hes a little underexplored and actually functions differently from doc in how he punishes and utilizes his moveset.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Arookie has has been beaten hugs and lucky and other random good players mario is like gannon in the respect the they both suck hard and lose most match-ups, but not by much and really they have fairly stable spreads without many extreme counters.

Honestly yoshi is at least mid tier and if asma places this well or better at the next few tournments i won't think anything of it till we see the rise of anti yoshi tactics like we have vs fox, falco, and marth. Many people pratice just to screw those chartcers over in every possible way. We have yet to see how bad a great yoshi can lose.

 

[BTmoney]

Give me your phone number ill call you to prove im not a troll

this is probably the best post I've seen in a while

 

[Oskurito]

Is there going to be a 2014 tier list?

 

[Ezzee]

Is there going to be a 2014 tier list?

No

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

We have collectively decided that the metagame has stopped changing.

 

[Strong Badam]

I still find it very amusing that "S Tier" is 8 characters on this list.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

But some of the top 8 suck compared to the top 3

That's enough to merit an edit

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If there's interest, I can run this again this year. I doubt much changed, but it seems like the community enjoys the process

 

[Oskurito]

I would like to see the opinions of the best players and the people who go to tournaments on a regular basis. However, I'm not sure if this is the right time, maybe we should wait and see more tournament results?

 

[TheLegendaryKRB]

I would like to see the opinions of the best players and the people who go to tournaments on a regular basis. However, I'm not sure if this is the right time, maybe we should wait and see more tournament results?

Maybe we should wait after Evo 2014 (if Melee goes to it)?

 

[Zoler]

I still find it very amusing that "S Tier" is 8 characters on this list.

Fox, Falco, Marth should be S tier imo. Or maybe puff sheik too.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

It should only be fox and falco

 

[ChristianStewarts#1fan]

It should only be fox and falco

Thats ********

 

[FourStar]

Fox, Falco, Marth should be S tier imo. Or maybe puff sheik too.

If anything S tier would be Fox, Falco, and Sheik. Marth is debatable but honestly he is perfect at the top of the A tier

 

[VoiD-]

there just shouldn't be an s tier

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Zedla falco is a winable match-up : p

 

[Zoler]

It should only be fox and falco

If anything S tier would be Fox, Falco, and Sheik. Marth is debatable but honestly he is perfect at the top of the A tier

Nah, Marth does better vs fox and falco. A LOT better vs IC's and puff.

Sheik does better vs Falcon and wins vs marth. They both beat Peach as hard.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Thats ********

Why? There's clearly a slight drop in viability after those 2 characters

 

[VoiD-]

Why? There's clearly a slight drop in viability after those 2 characters

I think an S-tier is supposed to signify a more significant gap than that. If you feel the need to have a tier separation there, you could make them A-tier or something, but I think S-tier carries more implications than just being the highest tier on the list. If I'm wrong about that, please correct me.

If you think Fox/Falco (or whichever set of characters) are significantly stronger than the rest, then you can put them in S-tier. Otherwise, I'd say that there shouldn't be an S-tier at all.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

FD/marth is literally the only way to put fox/falco at a disadvantage (and even then it's incredibly winnable if the marth isn't m2k). The fact that it's almost impossible to counter them makes them worthy of S tier.

 

[Purpletuce]

Marth has good MUs with spacies, which makes him good, but he doesn't have spacies-style stupid strategies that work on everyone, so he ends up having trouble with half the cast, I also think he has one of the worst recoveries in the game and one of the worst combo weights. Pretty much when anyone gets in against Marth they can punish him very hard very consistently.

 

[TheLegendaryKRB]

Do you even play this game? Because the last time I checked mario went even with spacies (if youre good) and is better than straight up garbage like yoshi. Next well see people like you start claiming roy is top tier and above mario because some korean kid gets a half decent place with him at a tournament. (9th at apex) if results are all you understand then im winning mlg and evo to prove marios worth. Hes not as good as doc admittedly but hes not dk tier either and id argue as good as pikachu. If any of you scrubs disagree feel free to mm me at mlg and evo you can pick op characters like sheik all you want but i am the jesus of melee and the prophet doesnt drop sets to no trickery. #get at me #the blue mario

Your gonna get 4-stocked lol

 

[Zoler]

Marth has good MUs with spacies, which makes him good, but he doesn't have spacies-style stupid strategies that work on everyone, so he ends up having trouble with half the cast, I also think he has one of the worst recoveries in the game and one of the worst combo weights. Pretty much when anyone gets in against Marth they can punish him very hard very consistently.

Marth doesn't really have problems with any other characters than sheik and falcon and neither of them have more than a slight advantage.

Meanwhile sheik has a HUGE problem with puff and ice climbers.

 

[ChristianStewarts#1fan]

A few sheik questions. Why do people think sheik loses to spacies and why does sheik perform badly on PS?

Also silly overrating of character weaknesses and advantages above lol. Noobs underrating sheik and marth and overrating fox and falco.

 

[FourStar]

Marth doesn't really have problems with any other characters than sheik and falcon and neither of them have more than a slight advantage.

Meanwhile sheik has a HUGE problem with puff and ice climbers.

Pikachu has pretty good MU's against falco, fox, and Falcon but there is no way pikachu would move up past the 9 or 10 spot. I think Marth is the same kinda idea. He has great MU's against spacies yet he gets wrecked by like puff, sheik, and falcon. Its what's keeping marth down

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

sheik does lose to space animals, even if she's a soft counter. it's really close to even and Likely both players are super baise.

sheik dies a lot eariler n ps and gets no aid in her own kills in most match-ups it would be nice vs like puff but honestly i'd think puff would ban it. vs anyone with a strong dd game, zoning game, or stronger kill moves ps wouldn't be at all idea for sheik.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth doesn't really have problems with any other characters than sheik and falcon and neither of them have more than a slight advantage.

Meanwhile sheik has a HUGE problem with puff and ice climbers.

Man Marth blows in this meta. Shield dropping further hinders his stage control and people are still just as capable of exploiting the small number of active frames on his attacks. The only place he has advantage on spacies is FD, he loses on every other stage (maybe not FoD vs Fox). He gets bodied by the other top 5 members, puff and shiek, too.

Sheik has basically every advantage Marth has (semi-floaty, huge grab, stage control, slippery movement, gimps/edge camping) but has plenty of other perks (chain grabs or guaranteed tech chase on everyone in the cast, automatic combos at every percent, excellent projectile, short duck) and less drawbacks (not as light, doesn't suck at killing people once they are over 100%, has "get off me" attacks).

So sure, marth is better in one specific case (vs spacies on FD), but sheik is much more versatile, which is what really matters. Sheik also is favored by the current meta, while marth is disfavored (marginally of course). Having arguably better matchups with obscure midtiers really doesn't matter in the big picture.

 

[Bones0]

Man Marth blows in this meta. Shield dropping further hinders his stage control and people are still just as capable of exploiting the small number of active frames on his attacks.

Sorry, but it's pretty obvious you don't know what you're talking about if you think Marth sucks at dealing with shield dropping. He is probably the BEST character when it comes to dealing with it. He can shield poke really well, nair to catch them with the second hit, wait a second and shield break them, late uair-utilt, late aerial-shield grab, or late aerial-DD grab. Every other character has to have perfect momentum and spacing in order to avoid getting hit by shield drop aerials (and even then it is often impossible). Marth can outspace everyone's aerials, most of them fairly easily.

The only place he has advantage on spacies is FD, he loses on every other stage (maybe not FoD vs Fox).

I'm going to assume you think PS is not in Marth's favor, but if I'm wrong then this breakdown goes out to the people that do since I know there's tons of them. What exactly is it about PS that makes it significantly worse for Marth than FD? They are played almost identically aside from a few differences: transformations, platforms, edges, and blast zones.

Marth isn't amazing on some of the transformations, but he is great at camping whatever side he is on because of his DD and disjointed upward attacks. He also gains the ability to poke really far through certain walls, including the edges where dtilt and fsmash hit even the best sweetspots. The platform changes can affect a lot of characters negatively, but Marth does just fine because he can still reach people on them with uair and use his range to techchase even on Fire's large plat. Yes, he can get waveshine infinited in certain spots, but it is super uncommon to actually get caught in that scenario, especially with Marth's low traction preventing standard waveshines from leading into the corner, and the damage you take from a few shines is usually equivalent to a small combo unless they catch you particularly early in the transformation phase (which again, shouldn't happen because you can defend so well).

Most people I hear explaining why Marth is bad on PS vs. FD bring up the platforms as if they are some sort of problem when I would consider them the best plat setup in the game for Marth. They are just so low that all of his moves cover huge portions (sometimes all of it), it buffs his tomahawk mixup, and he can get off the plat and get to the ground sooner to start moving asap. They are also further from the ledges so that it's harder for opponents to use them when recovering, which is an option Marth very rarely uses himself anyway. The biggest change that helps Marth is that there's no top plat. Fox circle camping with the top plat is the bane of many character's existences, but on PS that isn't an option. Fox can't safely and easily make which side of the stage he is coming down on ambiguous, and the more predictable he is, the more hits Marth is going to land. It's much easier to zone a speedy character in one dimension than two. Also, vs. Falco, I think PS might actually be better than FD because you can use the platforms to get around lasers a little easier or bait him into running under you and then WD off to get control of center stage of fair/bair him. As a Falco, I see myself getting very little mileage out of the platforms. Marth just doesn't usually end up on top of them, and when he does it is during combos that are actually more consistent on FD than PS. All the plats do is give Marth opportunities to slide off after dairs and more opportunities to trap me into platform tech chases where he can easily fsmash on reaction.

The edges don't really nerf Marth's recovery at all, but it can cause trouble for spacies by preventing wall-riding and it also prevents most characters from getting much use out of walljump recoveries. Taking the wall away from spacies is the big one though because it opens up the option to get a guaranteed counter if they get too close to the stage. When they are forced away from the stage before starting their up-Bs, they become that much easier to gimp during the up-B startup.

And finally, we have PS's infamous "low ceiling". Every time I hear someone talk about how INSANELY low the ceiling is on PS, I lose faith in humanity.

A fresh Fox usmash KOs Marth from the center of PS at 77%.
A fresh Fox usmash KOs Marth from the center of FD at... wait for it... 79%! OMFG!
(FYI: BF is 82%)

Yes, PS's ceiling is technically lower than FD's, and I think the % difference can get a bit larger with good DI, but what people fail to realize is that PS's huge length likely makes up whatever difference in ceiling height exists. The wider the stage is, the further you can DI without dying off the side, which especially matters because most KOs happen near the edges, not the center of the stage. FoD has a pretty big ceiling, but its relatively shallow horizontal blastzones mean you can't live as long. Here is a thread with all of the blast zones in debug menu. I'd be very interested if someone could figure out the order of stages based on Fox's usmash's KO potential (from the center and from the ledge).

He gets bodied by the other top 5 members, puff and shiek, too.

I don't agree at all. I think he struggles with Sheik, but Puff actually seems in his favor. We just haven't seen anyone actually implementing game changing stuff like pivoting off of throws into KOs. When you can do that, Marth plays the matchup very similarly to Fox. Rack up ~50%, get a grab, KO off the grab. When you can tip your aerials consistently, that 50% comes quick. Marth also has an amazing Rest punish game with dsmash, fsmash for high percents when you don't have much time, dair at low percents (combos into tons of stuff even if she stays grounded with ASDI), and of course shield breaker when you have time which will almost always gets you the KO. Marth's biggest weaknesses are KOing and getting overwhelmed by speed, and neither of these apply vs. Jiggs because she dies ridiculously early from a whole slew of moves (vertical and horizontal), gets comboed into those moves from grabs (Marth's bnb), is able to edgeguard her better than most characters (LH/runoff DJ dair gimps), and can't rush down Marth without getting swatted away.

As far as Sheik is concerned, I will just say that every time I see an actual Marth main play Sheik, they do fine. Ether and MT have both demonstrated their capabilities vs. Sheik overall and PP has even taken games off M2K's Sheik with Marth, so I can't see any reason to assume the matchup is any worse than a slight advantage. It's a shame there isn't more Marth vs. Sheik action at the top level to base it off of.

Sheik has basically every advantage Marth has (semi-floaty, huge grab, stage control, slippery movement, gimps/edge camping) but has plenty of other perks (chain grabs or guaranteed tech chase on everyone in the cast, automatic combos at every percent, excellent projectile, short duck) and less drawbacks (not as light, doesn't suck at killing people once they are over 100%, has "get off me" attacks).

So sure, marth is better in one specific case (vs spacies on FD), but sheik is much more versatile, which is what really matters. Sheik also is favored by the current meta, while marth is disfavored (marginally of course). Having arguably better matchups with obscure midtiers really doesn't matter in the big picture.

I didn't see "giant sword" on your list which is sort of the whole appeal of Marth. He outranges everyone in the game on a frighteningly consistent basis...