2013 Community Tier List

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Doc also has a degree which would naturally put him higher.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Tier list by occupation:

Astronaut
Astronaut
Ninja
Samurai
Singer
Housewife
Bounty Hunter / Racer
CEO of Ice Mountain
Doctor
Portable Power plant
Bounty Hunter / Model
Evil King
Plumber
Plumber
None / Savior of Humanity
Hero of Time
None / Eats bananas
Secretly a pokemon
Princess / Scholar
Kid with a heavy sword
Wins the lottery a lot
Temp Agent
Kid on drugs
Misunderstood Turtle
Cute
Taste Tester

 

[Papa+Stone]

Fox and falco are han solos

 

[Papa+Stone]

And marth is an anime princess

 

[Purpletuce]

Papa stone posting again?. . . that's unfortunate.

Who is saying people choose Doc over Mario. With one notable Doc, and one (less)notable Mario, I don't really think there is a clear preference among high-level players.

 

[TheLegendaryKRB]

My Tier list

S Tier:
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Zelda/Sheik
4. Sheik
5. Marth
6. Captain Falcon
7. Jigglypuff
8. Peach
9. Ice Climbers

A Tier:
10. Dr. Mario

B Tier:
11. Pikachu
12. Ganondorf
13. Samus
14. Luigi
15. Mario

C Tier:
16. Young Link
17. Link
18. Mewtwo
19. Yoshi
20. Roy
21. Donkey Kong

D Tier:
22. Ness
23. Mr. Game & Watch

E Tier:
24. Zelda
25. Kirby
26. Pichu
27. Bowser


Note: Kirby is higher than Pichu & Bowser due to having 2 good matchups while those 2 have 0.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You're about 9 months too late duder

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I'm curious as to what 2 matchups are considered good for kirby?

 

[TheLegendaryKRB]

I'm curious as to what 2 matchups are considered good for kirby?

Bowser & Roy

 

[Ezzee]

Bowser & Roy

I know exactly what MU chart you're talking about. It's horribly inaccurate, don't trust it

 

[KirbyKaze]

I group them like

TOP SLICE
Sheik -- Falco -- Fox -- Marth -- Puff

BACON
Peach -- Doug -- Ice Climbers

LETTUCE
Doc -- Pikachu -- Luigi -- Samus -- Yoshi

TOMATO
Ganon -- Mario -- DK -- Link -- Shota Link

MAYONNAISE
Mewtwo -- Zelda -- Roy -- Mr. Game & Watch

BOTTOM SLICE
Bowser -- Ness -- Kirby -- Pichu

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

where is the patty

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

where is the patty

What kind of BLT has a patty?

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

a good one

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

a good one

I disagree

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I disagree

You are everything that is wrong with the world. I have liked and then unliked your facebook page to teach you a lesson.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You are everything that is wrong with the world.

I disagree.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

 

[TheLegendaryKRB]

I know exactly what MU chart you're talking about. It's horribly inaccurate, don't trust it

In all honesty its seems legit that Kirby is good against Bowser & Roy

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Kirby is bad against everyone.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Kirby is bad against everyone.

I
















disagree

 

[Krynxe]

I do too. The current tier list is way more accurate than the last one, which I'm happy to see. Regardless, I still think that Kirby is a better character than Pichu most notable due to his bair being rather good and his uair having decent killpower. Along with the kirbycide (throws, not really inhale) gimmicks that allow you to trade stocks on over-eager opponents and aids your camping game. Kirby has a superior recovery to Pichu, superior range (Kirby's ftilt, bair, and dtilt especially), and superior damage output excluding Pichu's silly combos on fastfallers that pretty much only works on FD. Since I main puff, I actually picked up Kirby for kicks about a year ago for fun to play against people in my area that weren't quite as good as me, and I found a good amount of success once I understood the character and his differences and similarities to puff. (many more differences, really)

I just feel like people jump onboard with pichu being better because he's faster and thus has a "higher skill ceiling" such as spacies and whatnot, but that's kind of bullcrap especially given how unexplored Kirby is. It also seems like people try to put their idea of metagame and "experience" over the blatant, objective inferiority that Pichu has when compared to any other character. I would just like to see some arguments other than "kirby is bad/worse", because that doesn't tell me anything at all.

Also, I'm interesting in KK's placement of Yoshi. At first, I was kind of like "don't be that guy who bumps up a tier because of recent tourney success and/or one successful player" but at the same time, Yoshi's potential is very ambiguous. I believe that if any character deserves to go up in tier, it's Yoshi, but not to the extent that KK listed (not above Mario and Ganon.) Here's my thoughts on Yoshi:
Amsa's success was result of his own fundamentals as a player AND other people's lack of match-up knowledge. I'll qualify myself by saying that Yoshi is my 64 main and melee secondary, and has been for a long time. There are many weaknesses to the character that may people simply fail to recognize and take advantage of, often letting Yoshi play his game. From a frame data perspective, especially given his shield options including his poor grab and inability to jump, Yoshi's options are extraordinarily limited from the defensive side. This can be heavily abused when you have a good understanding of what Yoshi can do, and what you yourself can do to get him in these disadvantageous defensive positions. Offensively, Yoshi has to rely on irregular movement and mixups to catch the opponent offguard with attacks. This can, of course, be beaten by simply being less hasty and getting a better grasp of Yoshi's movement options. Again, due to his poor grab, shielding is a stronger option against Yoshi. General defensive/passive play completely destroys Yoshi, since he relies on punishing you for your actions of aggression. For instance with Fox, holding a lead and playing completely passive forces Yoshi to be aggressive and hoping he can hit you while you're moving around, putting Fox at a huge advantage since Yoshi's moves are far from safe.

In short, Yoshi is a solid character due to his potential and movement options along with solid killing and gimping options, but he has many unrecognized weaknesses. It's the fault of the metagame, not keeping up with Yoshi, that's allowing him to shine.

Don't get me wrong, I believed that Yoshi was previously grossly misrepresented on the previous tier list. But the current tier list gives a pretty good depiction of the characters, and if anything I believe that this whole community doesn't know enough about the character (excluding a few specific people) to accurately place him on the tier list just yet. Hopefully, a bit more exposure will let the character's tier placement come to a rest

 

[KirbyKaze]

V3ctorman got bracket at P5.
We heard about leffen's Yoshi in Europe and it won some half decent medium-sized locals.
Unfortunately, we never saw Leffen's Yoshi here. Having said that, I think it's understandable that leffen wouldn't use Yoshi over Fox here if he's a Fox main -- he's going to play that over here in his sets since he gets to come here once a year and Yoshi is a stupidly technically demanding character in some very unique ways (also Sheik doesn't suck here).
A year or so later, Amsa showed some potential to people at EVO but didn't have much in the way of raw results.
About six months after, Amsa produced some nice raw results at APEX 2014.

Even if we included Scorp-a-dorp's results and other stuff, when was the last time that Mario did anything remotely interesting? Or was shown to be capable of competing at high level with the more competitive characters? I understand that Ganon has a respectable history of doing well and Kage is a beast so I'm willing to explore that avenue of this conversation. But Mario doesn't. And I think his lack of development outside of his basics is to blame -- his simplistic, balanced design is beginning to catch up to him.

edit:

Shooting lasers so the character with weak mobility has to play an awkward footsie vs Fox's ridiculous dash dance control suite also beats Mario pretty badly too so I'm not really interested in the argument that, "Yoshi gets destroyed when he has to approach." Because duh. So does Mario. So does basically every character who HAS to approach Fox when that happens. That's why (among other reasons) Fox is stupid.

I feel Yoshi can counter-camp a lot of characters with his eggs too, and they hit people who go on platforms. The latter is especially important because it gives him answers to people who use the platform movements to reset position (which is a big part of passive play). Not only does this give him decent answers to a common maneuver in prolonged defensive patterns, but his eggs have the bonus of not requiring him to stick his hurtbox in that immediate vicinity (which is a big deal -- ask anyone who's ever been platform camped by Falco). Yoshi has luxuries that many characters simply do not have.

I do agree with you in that I think Yoshi's dependency on his actual attacks is a big weakness. But I feel his flexibility with his movement affords him some ways to make it work in the long run and part of this is from having an air grab -- I strongly feel having an air grab is a much bigger utility in this game than people realize. Then again I'm crazy and think Kirby's inhale is good rofl.

 

[TheLegendaryKRB]

You're about 9 months too late duder

Somebody told me to post it here and then im told im late lol

 

[TheLegendaryKRB]

I do too. The current tier list is way more accurate than the last one, which I'm happy to see. Regardless, I still think that Kirby is a better character than Pichu most notable due to his bair being rather good and his uair having decent killpower. Along with the kirbycide (throws, not really inhale) gimmicks that allow you to trade stocks on over-eager opponents and aids your camping game. Kirby has a superior recovery to Pichu, superior range (Kirby's ftilt, bair, and dtilt especially), and superior damage output excluding Pichu's silly combos on fastfallers that pretty much only works on FD. Since I main puff, I actually picked up Kirby for kicks about a year ago for fun to play against people in my area that weren't quite as good as me, and I found a good amount of success once I understood the character and his differences and similarities to puff. (many more differences, really)

I just feel like people jump onboard with pichu being better because he's faster and thus has a "higher skill ceiling" such as spacies and whatnot, but that's kind of bullcrap especially given how unexplored Kirby is. It also seems like people try to put their idea of metagame and "experience" over the blatant, objective inferiority that Pichu has when compared to any other character. I would just like to see some arguments other than "kirby is bad/worse", because that doesn't tell me anything at all.

Also, I'm interesting in KK's placement of Yoshi. At first, I was kind of like "don't be that guy who bumps up a tier because of recent tourney success and/or one successful player" but at the same time, Yoshi's potential is very ambiguous. I believe that if any character deserves to go up in tier, it's Yoshi, but not to the extent that KK listed (not above Mario and Ganon.) Here's my thoughts on Yoshi:
Amsa's success was result of his own fundamentals as a player AND other people's lack of match-up knowledge. I'll qualify myself by saying that Yoshi is my 64 main and melee secondary, and has been for a long time. There are many weaknesses to the character that may people simply fail to recognize and take advantage of, often letting Yoshi play his game. From a frame data perspective, especially given his shield options including his poor grab and inability to jump, Yoshi's options are extraordinarily limited from the defensive side. This can be heavily abused when you have a good understanding of what Yoshi can do, and what you yourself can do to get him in these disadvantageous defensive positions. Offensively, Yoshi has to rely on irregular movement and mixups to catch the opponent offguard with attacks. This can, of course, be beaten by simply being less hasty and getting a better grasp of Yoshi's movement options. Again, due to his poor grab, shielding is a stronger option against Yoshi. General defensive/passive play completely destroys Yoshi, since he relies on punishing you for your actions of aggression. For instance with Fox, holding a lead and playing completely passive forces Yoshi to be aggressive and hoping he can hit you while you're moving around, putting Fox at a huge advantage since Yoshi's moves are far from safe.

In short, Yoshi is a solid character due to his potential and movement options along with solid killing and gimping options, but he has many unrecognized weaknesses. It's the fault of the metagame, not keeping up with Yoshi, that's allowing him to shine.

Don't get me wrong, I believed that Yoshi was previously grossly misrepresented on the previous tier list. But the current tier list gives a pretty good depiction of the characters, and if anything I believe that this whole community doesn't know enough about the character (excluding a few specific people) to accurately place him on the tier list just yet. Hopefully, a bit more exposure will let the character's tier placement come to a rest

Kirbycide is not as predictable as it looks. I was fighting my friend and he tried too shine me. While he was jumping at me I ate him and he died lol. And the Copy Ability is also underused. Falco Kirby can shoot like 4 lasers in 1 short hop. Hes a character that is waiting to be professionally used in my opinion.

 

[john!]

he will probably be waiting for a very long time.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Forever probably.

 

[KirbyKaze]

aMSa liked my post defending Yoshi. Get rekt.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fun fact #1: Kirby's fair knocks Fox down at 0%.

Fun fact #2: There are ways to combo, rack damage on, and kill spacies that aren't chain grabbing.

Fun fact #3: Kirby's crouch is really, really good.

I personally think that as a low tier it's more important -- generally speaking -- to be able to limit what the opponent can do to you as opposed to play off of what your character can do. Particularly if you're comparing the utility of a big, situational combo to limiting options in the opponent's repertoire. Understandably, there's gonna be some overlap between those two options because they are extremes (ex. if I teleport or jump evasively with Mewtwo as Peach is rushing me down, not only am I making myself difficult to hit by playing off her slow speed and thus limiting her but I am also playing to the fact that a big shadow ball is a threat and way of policing her air game). But in general you're going to be leaning towards either playing to your strengths vs. limiting the opponent's options. Since really low tiered characters tend to struggle in terms of how strong their powerful options actually are, it generally makes more sense to slant towards the latter (ex. Bowser vs space animals, Roy vs Sheik, anyone vs Jiggs).

I don't think Pichu does a good job of actually policing what most characters can do because he's got nothing except a fast nair and some speed. He can't crouch cancel into much, his normals are mostly garbage, his priority is non-existent, and his main attacks don't knock down at stupid percents or really do anything remarkable (except his uair, I guess?). He's also got some of the worst techs in the game.

 

[Mogwai]

Can we all just agree that if someone broke out similar to how aMSa did with Kirby OR Pichu that we'd be massively surprised because they're both ****ing terrible?

 

[KirbyKaze]

You're alive?

 

[Mogwai]

****, KK's on to me

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

real low tier players always seem to agrue who has the worst match-up vs ___________ well at least in player

 

[KirbyKaze]

Low tier players like to

 

[Impp]

^ Yes it's true... We do like to make dogs wear dresses. Who told you?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I was a Kirby main.

 

[Purpletuce]

Yoshi. . . Lettuce tier? Perfect.

Definitely 110% agree with Krynxe's post about Yoshi btw.

I group them like

TOP SLICE
Sheik -- Falco -- Fox -- Marth -- Puff

BACON
Peach -- Doug -- Ice Climbers

LETTUCE
Doc -- Pikachu -- Luigi -- Samus -- Yoshi

TOMATO
Ganon -- Mario -- DK -- Link -- Shota Link

MAYONNAISE
Mewtwo -- Zelda -- Roy -- Mr. Game & Watch

BOTTOM SLICE
Bowser -- Ness -- Kirby -- Pichu

 

[karu_no_saru]

I'm curious as to what 2 matchups are considered good for kirby?

Honestly, I think there are none. However, if I had to make a choice, I'd always prefer Falcon as an opponent over anybody else. I feel like given the fact kirby plays the MU perfectly, he has an answer against any of falcons options.
I'm not gonna write down everything, but the general idea is:
if he comes to grab, you can crouch it and give him a tilt/your own grab
if he comes with an aerial, you can shield, WD ooS and youre in safety. you might even punish his approach by shieldgrabbing etc. if his spacing is bad.
most falcons will eventually start coming from above, which is where it becomes a bit more difficult, however timing your utilts perfectly should outprioritize everything falcon has and whenever you feel like you don't have the time for utilt you still have your shield.

On top of that, Kirbys backair, uair and dair make for very good chances of simply edgeguarding Falcon after a backthrow or anything similar.
That being said, I've lost to many falcon players who were simply better than me. It doesn't hurt as much as constantly dying to spacies though, since at least in theory you had options in the MU.

 

[Strong Badam]

is hypnotoad S tier yet? if not you should fix that joe
hypnotoad has no bad matchups

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think Pichu does a good job of actually policing what most characters can do because he's got nothing except a fast nair and some speed. He can't crouch cancel into much, his normals are mostly garbage, his priority is non-existent, and his main attacks don't knock down at stupid percents or really do anything remarkable (except his uair, I guess?). He's also got some of the worst techs in the game.

He's got lots of swag though which is pretty important if your decisions are based on arbitrary whims. See: RaynEX.