2013 Community Tier List

[Corona]

Why is my signature your signature

Yeah, I noticed that. I'm pretty sure the guy who posted that was agreeing with you and was referring to me with that.

 

[Sorto]

Does anyone have the actual votes that were cast? I am curious what I tier list based on MODE instead of MEAN would look like?

 

[john!]

Their popularity doesn't indicate anything about how good they are seeing as how the percentage of players winning is appropriate given the base population of each character. The theory world I depicted isn't the one I subscribe to, that's the theory world almost everyone else lives in. Just read any post of people trying to describe how dominant spacies are in this metagame and you'll find tons of one-sided descriptions of unwinnable situations ("If Fox/Falco does such-and-such tactic, the other character can't do anything!" "Actually, you can do A, B, C." "No, that just means Fox/Falco didn't perform said tactic properly!"). As I already said, this is my opinion of this sort of theory:

but surely if there were high-level "death-touch" tactics against spacies, then spacies would be less popular in high-level tournaments?

i think you're using the fact that other characters can develop anti-spacies strategies to distract us from the fact that spacies can develop strategies to counter those strats (and have way more tools to do so). you just dismiss those strats out of hand because your "spacies bandwagon" theory (an attempt to explain why everyone thinks spacies are so good even though they're actually not) doesn't account for them.

If you're having a conversation and you want to use someone else's opinion in your discussion, feel free. But when you are voting, you should vote entirely based on your own ideas. Otherwise you are giving someone else's opinion more sway than it deserves. Let the voting system do it's job, every vote shouldn't look the same.

seems like we've working off of different definitions here.

suppose i read a kirbykaze post about a character that i don't have experience with. after reading his post, i think "wow that's a great post, KK seems like he knows what he's talking about". you wouldn't be okay with me basing my tier list off of that post, just because it's someone else's opinion?

 

[Corona]

suppose i read a kirbykaze post about a character that i don't have experience with. after reading his post, i think "wow that's a great post, KK seems like he knows what he's talking about". you wouldn't be okay with me basing my tier list off of that post, just because it's someone else's opinion?

He probably would have a problem with it. Not all of the votes that were casted were used (in fact, the vast majority of which were not). This means to me that only the most knowledgeable of the most knowledgeable were used aka the one's that have enough experience with and/or against the whole cast to not be overly swayed by another's post.

 

[Bones0]

but surely if there were high-level "death-touch" tactics against spacies, then spacies would be less popular in high-level tournaments?

i think you're using the fact that other characters can develop anti-spacies strategies to distract us from the fact that spacies can develop strategies to counter those strats (and have way more tools to do so). you just dismiss those strats out of hand because your "spacies bandwagon" theory (an attempt to explain why everyone thinks spacies are so good even though they're actually not) doesn't account for them.

Maybe you need to reread this AGAIN...

Their popularity doesn't indicate anything about how good they are seeing as how the percentage of players winning is appropriate given the base population of each character. The theory world I depicted isn't the one I subscribe to, that's the theory world almost everyone else lives in. Just read any post of people trying to describe how dominant spacies are in this metagame and you'll find tons of one-sided descriptions of unwinnable situations ("If Fox/Falco does such-and-such tactic, the other character can't do anything!" "Actually, you can do A, B, C." "No, that just means Fox/Falco didn't perform said tactic properly!"). As I already said, this is my opinion of this sort of theory:

I don't think either concept of those characters is a particularly accurate or healthy way of viewing the game, but if you must view it that way, surely there should be perfect Theory Bros. versions of all characters, not just ones with shines.

The exact logical fallacy I just laid out is the same one you just tried to argue. You tried to argue I was ignoring the possibility of spacies avoiding perfect counterattacks, which is why thinking at that level of theory is dumb. You're basically assuming spacies are better and then justifying it by saying they have more options to counterattack with. I could say the same exact thing about any character, but that doesn't make it right.

"i think you're using the fact that spacies can develop anti-floaty strategies to distract us from the fact that floaties can develop strategies to counter those strats (and have way more tools to do so)."

 

[BTmoney]

Lol you guys are both ridiculous. Why are you so Anti-Spacies bones? I don't understand.

Yeah, I noticed that. I'm pretty sure the guy who posted that was agreeing with you and was referring to me with that.

If you go back to the thread it was a quoted response to me, it wouldn't make sense for it to be directed at you. It was pretty clear, the dude quoted me. Lol. You don't have enough posts to be the best idiot, it takes time.

 

[Corona]

Ok, you may have it. Thanks for the new sig, though!

 

[Bones0]

Lol you guys are both ridiculous. Why are you so Anti-Spacies bones? I don't understand.

I'm not anti-spacies. I anti-groupthink.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'm not anti-spacies. I anti-groupthink.

So you disagree with everyone else on principle alone?













Note: I don't actually believe that

Second Note: Did I use the right form of Principle/Principal? I switched between the two a couple times before deciding which one to use

 

[john!]

The exact logical fallacy I just laid out is the same one you just tried to argue. You tried to argue I was ignoring the possibility of spacies avoiding perfect counterattacks, which is why thinking at that level of theory is dumb. You're basically assuming spacies are better and then justifying it by saying they have more options to counterattack with. I could say the same exact thing about any character, but that doesn't make it right.

"i think you're using the fact that spacies can develop anti-floaty strategies to distract us from the fact that floaties can develop strategies to counter those strats (and have way more tools to do so)."

it sounds to me like you are discovering why basing your tier list on theory alone is a terrible idea. the only thing you can truly rely on is statistics, and the statistics show that the space animals are considered far above the rest of the cast. you can theorize all day about why that is, but the list is what it is.

He probably would have a problem with it. Not all of the votes that were casted were used (in fact, the vast majority of which were not). This means to me that only the most knowledgeable of the most knowledgeable were used aka the one's that have enough experience with and/or against the whole cast to not be overly swayed by another's post.

he didn't choose the most knowledgeable though... nor did he choose the most successful in tournaments... in fact, none of us even know why sveet chose the voters the way he did, so we can only speculate.

 

[BTmoney]

I'm not anti-spacies. I anti-groupthink.

I'd respond with a hipster kitty meme but threads get closed when people start doing that.
Or maybe a Scumbag Steve: "Spacies are overrated / Mains Falco."

Well what's the crux of your argument? I'm sure you've stated it before but something clear and concise would be nice. Unless it's just "spacies are overrated because everyone thinks they're good, so I say they're not" but I have more faith in you than that.

 

[Bones0]

I'd respond with a hipster kitty meme but threads get closed when people start doing that.
Or maybe a Scumbag Steve: "Spacies are overrated / Mains Falco."

Well what's the crux of your argument? I'm sure you've stated it before but something clear and concise would be nice. Unless it's just "spacies are overrated because everyone thinks they're good, so I say they're not" but I have more faith in you than that.

Mains Falco.

Puts Falco second on his tier list.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not anti-spacies. I anti-groupthink.

i used to feel this way, but then i realized that being an intellectual hipster actually just made me wrong a lot of the time for no reason. group think has its place in the intellectual world just as much as dissenting viewpoints do. its best to just not care about that **** and to deal with whatever the subject is at hand imo

 

[BTmoney]

Mains Falco.

Puts Falco second on his tier list.

Well the point wasn't the meme lol, I actually want to know your rationale.

Especially since you had Falcon and Peach above Fox.

 

[Bones0]

i used to feel this way, but then i realized that being an intellectual hipster actually just made me wrong a lot of the time for no reason. group think has its place in the intellectual world just as much as dissenting viewpoints do. its best to just not care about that **** and to deal with whatever the subject is at hand imo

I don't thrive on being hipster or anything. It's just blatantly obvious groupthink has overtaken people in the case of the tier list. I have no qualms about people checking their own opinions against the majority, and I actively do it myself. The first thing

Well the point wasn't the meme lol, I actually want to know your rational.

Especially since you had Falcon and Peach above Fox.

The rationale behind my list shouldn't hold any relevance in an argument about flawed perspectives of the tier list. I don't want people to think they have to either agree with me or the current list. I'm fine with whatever people want to believe as long as they aren't mindlessly subscribing to the status quo give or take a few characters being switched.

 

[SleepyK]

augh i hate reading through the slog and i'm sure no one will read my post, but honestly the big problem we have with the SSBM community tier list is the same and it's always been the same - we (smashers, but i primarily mean the Melee Back Room and former Melee Back Room members) don't have an actual metric by which we make our tier lists. The people who vote/have voted on tier lists in the past have been given free reign to vote on a tier list as they saw fit and that didn't change this time. I know my tier list was a mix of my opinion of the characters + tournament results which is problematic when you're trying to quantify this kind of thing. Personally I do like the MBR style tier list where most of the MBR members would vote in accordance to their opinions - i felt that the player insight was very important. However, I feel like it should be accompanied or superseded by a tier list created primarily from a match up chart. Therein lies another problem - most players can't really agree on how matchups are because melee results and opinions can be skewed by how well someone is playing that day as mango mentioned etc asdf

ultimately the claims that "it shouldn't matter if it's easier to win for certain characters" mentality is inherently incorrect because a tier list, if we were to do tier lists like most other fighting games, is supposed to list which characters have the best matchups and therefore the easiest/highest chance of winning.

 

[SleepyK]

The exact logical fallacy I just laid out is the same one you just tried to argue. You tried to argue I was ignoring the possibility of spacies avoiding perfect counterattacks, which is why thinking at that level of theory is dumb. You're basically assuming spacies are better and then justifying it by saying they have more options to counterattack with. I could say the same exact thing about any character, but that doesn't make it right.

"i think you're using the fact that spacies can develop anti-floaty strategies to distract us from the fact that floaties can develop strategies to counter those strats (and have way more tools to do so)."

well yeah because the statement itself is flawed.

ultimately space animals (chiefly fox, falco much less so) have the most usable tools in the game period.that's not a debatable statement, it's a fact. a lot of fox's tools are inherently better than other characters or at the very least the combination of all of his incredibly good tools = p gud idk y0l0 swag

 

[Bones0]

well yeah because the statement itself is flawed.

ultimately space animals (chiefly fox, falco much less so) have the most usable tools in the game period.that's not a debatable statement, it's a fact. a lot of fox's tools are inherently better than other characters or at the very least the combination of all of his incredibly good tools = p gud idk y0l0 swag

That isn't a fact, it's your opinion. Again, I could say the same exact statement and put in any character's name and it holds just as much weight as your claim. What tools does Fox have that are so far above the other characters that it makes them objectively best? Just considering moves, the only one I might consider unmatched compared to the same move of other characters is usmash.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How many options isn't the only factor when judging characters. In my mind, this is the order of importance:

1) How sustainable is the neutral
2) How safe are their pokes in the neutral
3) How often a first hit leads to a stock gain
4) How many mixups are available (defense, then offense)


I think there is a good argument for Falco as #1. He controls the neutral better than any other character, laser is the safest poke around, and he can kill off of a small number of first hits (1 can be enough at the top level). Fox tends to rely more on sharking and keeping the opponent in a negative position instead of truly comboing them to death. That usually equates to the same thing, but it isn't as reliable.

 

[Glide24]

I don't get why everyone keeps putting Jiggs over Peach when, in my opinion, Peach clearly outclasses Jiggs.

 

[Divinokage]

That isn't a fact, it's your opinion. Again, I could say the same exact statement and put in any character's name and it holds just as much weight as your claim. What tools does Fox have that are so far above the other characters that it makes them objectively best? Just considering moves, the only one I might consider unmatched compared to the same move of other characters is usmash.

Really? Have you considered how moves interact with each other? Fox's moves come out very fast which gives him pretty nice priority compared to other characters.. along with his movement speed it's already enough to call him the best. It's not an opinion that Fox's nair stuffs basically every option when you attempt to jump for example.

 

[Bones0]

Really? Have you considered how moves interact with each other? Fox's moves come out very fast which gives him pretty nice priority compared to other characters.. along with his movement speed it's already enough to call him the best. It's not an opinion that Fox's nair stuffs basically every option when you attempt to jump for example.

That is not what priority means.

 

[Yeroc]

Priority doesn't actually exist. "Priority" as most people understand it in Smash is a combination of several things: clankability, hitbox disjointedness, and movespeed. All attacks have some measure of disjoint on them: virtually none have hitboxes that are completely overlapped by hurtboxes. Higher disjoint = greater propensity to win in an exchange where trades are possible. Ground moves and projectiles clank with one another when the hitboxes are close to one another in damage, but some don't clank at all.. Faster moves obviously are more likely to intersect an opponent's hurtbox before they can intersect one of yours. These are the only factors that constitute how attacks clank or trade or beat one another.

 

[SleepyK]

his aerial speed in conjunction with his movement speed + hitboxes + shine

it's kind of not really debatable outside of highly specific scenarios

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Yoshi is probably mid tier.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I agree, he probably has the potential.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, i think he has potential to be bottom of high tier even. Lately i've taken to watching yoshi just to see what the char is capable of, and I found that that top yoshi player (amsa?) was using his DJ armor ot basically attempt rapid crossups or even vertical high crossups in which he just accepted getting hit in exchange for resetting stage control. trading a little damage to get out of a bad stage position is quite a good trait on a char. I remember thinking how pissed I would be as marth since I am used to getting so much once the opponent is pinned.

punching into top 8 is probably beyond the char, but top 15 seems reasonable

 

[Ezzee]

I think that Ness should B-Tier, maybe not change his placement, but definitely his tier. The best currently, Mofo, has proven Ness can hold his own vs the high tier characters. His hit boxes (especially his air ones) are huge, and he has one of the best throws in the game. He has 2 great jumps, and while his recovery is horrible, yoshi doesn't even get a B-up that has the chance to get him back on stage and look at what people are doing with him. Ness' air game can go toe to toe with most of the high tier characters, and Leffen has stated that Ness' nuetral game can compete with Sheik's. I'm waiting for someone to come out with a great Ness game like aMSa's Yoshi. The closest one so far is Mofo, but I haven't watched him play with many of the great players other than a match against Hax (in which he played great)

 

[S2rulL]

My girl Jiggs making S-Tier =D

 

[Ripple]

even if Ness recovers to an edge, he has no safe way to get back on stage or even refresh his invincibility. his best options are either roll or normal stand up. everything else would be even more vulnerable.

even if his on stage game is really good, his off stage game is SO bad, it brings him down to bottom tier

 

[Bones0]

even if Ness recovers to an edge, he has no safe way to get back on stage or even refresh his invincibility. his best options are either roll or normal stand up. everything else would be even more vulnerable.

even if his on stage game is really good, his off stage game is SO bad, it brings him down to bottom tier

Ness can reverse ledgedash with full invinc or just regular ledgedash (not sure how much invinc he has, but I think it's enough to at least shield).

 

[Ezzee]

even if Ness recovers to an edge, he has no safe way to get back on stage or even refresh his invincibility. his best options are either roll or normal stand up. everything else would be even more vulnerable.

even if his on stage game is really good, his off stage game is SO bad, it brings him down to bottom tier

His offstage game is poor, but his jump is so huge that you can go out and destroy someone with a bair or dair and get back to stage easily with a second jump. His offstage game is just more restricted and he can't go to far. Also, by that logic, Yoshi should be bottom tier too because his offstage game isn't much better

 

[Ripple]

Bones, I'll check that out in debug

ezzee, Yoshi's ledge game is amazing. he's vulnerable for 1 frame while shooting a projectile that covers a huge area and does 16%. he can throw these off stage to pop opponents straight up and then up air them. Yoshis do this all the time and rack up quite a bit of %. I have yet to see a ness have something so bothersome or as spammable while on the ledge.

 

[Ezzee]

Bones, I'll check that out in debug

ezzee, Yoshi's ledge game is amazing. he's vulnerable for 1 frame while shooting a projectile that covers a huge area and does 16%. he can throw these off stage to pop opponents straight up and then up air them. Yoshi's do this all the time and rack up quite a bit of %. I have yet to see a ness have something so bothersome or as spammable while on the ledge.

Yes the eggs are amazing, but if you're going to combo it into a u-air, I'd imagine you'd want to be close to the stage. I'm not going to act like I know a lot about yoshi, but popping you're opponent upward sounds like it could play to your opponents benefit in some situations, mostly when a character is coming upward onto the stage, where as Ness has a good spike (though it is risky if as you might fall farther than intended and end up dead). A Ness could jump off, bair, and easily get back on stage. While a head to head confrontaion in the air is risky, it also offers a higher reward as it can KO charcters from low health.

 

[Kimimaru]

He has 2 great jumps, and while his recovery is horrible, yoshi doesn't even get a B-up that has the chance to get him back on stage and look at what people are doing with him.

The difference is Yoshi has super armor on his double jump and Ness doesn't. In addition to helping Yoshi's recovery, the super armor helps Yoshi escape juggles and other bad situations, something Ness is less capable of doing.

Edge canceled eggs are used close to the stage. If you can rack up a lot of damage with them then you're essentially chipping away the opponent's stock, which is good. The eggs can also force the opponent to get away from the edge so you can get back on. Ness doesn't have something comparable.

Also, Yoshi is great against characters above him since his U-air has a huge hitbox and is one of his primary combo tools. Yoshi can also edgeguard with an invincible N-air from the edge and/or eggs thrown offstage. It's too big of a risk for Ness to go offstage and edgeguard because his recovery can be intercepted by an opponent.

I also agree that Ness is a bit better than most think but not by much. If he had to be put into B tier then I'd put Roy at #23, where Ness is now, and move Ness into #22 (moving Mewtwo and G&W up one as well).

 

[Ezzee]

The difference is Yoshi has super armor on his double jump and Ness doesn't. In addition to helping Yoshi's recovery, the super armor helps Yoshi escape juggles and other bad situations, something Ness is less capable of doing.

Edge canceled eggs are used close to the stage. If you can rack up a lot of damage with them then you're essentially chipping away the opponent's stock, which is good. The eggs can also force the opponent to get away from the edge so you can get back on. Ness doesn't have something comparable.

Also, Yoshi is great against characters above him since his U-air has a huge hitbox and is one of his primary combo tools. Yoshi can also edgeguard with an invincible N-air from the edge and/or eggs thrown offstage. It's too big of a risk for Ness to go offstage and edgeguard because his recovery can be intercepted by an opponent.

I also agree that Ness is a bit better than most think but not by much. If he had to be put into B tier then I'd put Roy at #23, where Ness is now, and move Ness into #22 (moving Mewtwo and G&W up one as well).

Didn't know that about Yoshi, learn new stuff every day. Ness isn't a better character than Yoshi, I was just pointing he has non-existant recovery while Ness at least has some kind. I jst think the description for F-Tier (not viable) doesn't really fit him. B-Tier does him more justice (Low Tier, Probably Not Viable. Some players have done well with these characters in specific match-ups, but for the most part they aren't viable for winning tournaments.) I'd probably say he's better than Roy and potentially GaW. That's just me though.

 

[Purpletuce]

Check out this Yoshi combo. . . Kimimaru propaganda post -> Purpletuce propaganda post.

One thing about Yoshi being so undeveloped is that a good amount of people don't fully know his options. One thing that I think allows him to separate himself from the lower tiered characters is the amount of options at his disposal. He has different tools to accommodate for different needs. He has lots of decent moves. He doesn't have many standout moves (like Marth U-tilt/D-tilt), but he has lots of viable moves. He can go play aggressive and go for Fairs and DJCs etc, or he can focus on movement and get chip damage with eggs/bairs/dtilts etc.

These different toolsets are also pretty useful for handling different MUs, gives you a good amount of ways to try a new MU.

Yesterday I was working on the Puff MU, and I tried going aggressive/pressure, and could do decent, and I also tried keeping distance, with chip damage and spacing, and could do decent.

Yoshi is has enough tools that he can mix up how he implements them, and I think that as he is developed, that will give him more MU coverage. Especially as Yoshis learn where what mindsets are most appropriate.


Edit: Yoshi combo failed, I got ninja'd. A very slow ninja.

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

is the best char in the game.

 

[SleepyK]

is the best char in the game.

yes

where is cactuar

i miss cactuar

 

[SleepyK]

cactuar sempai noticed me ; A ;