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StoicPhantom

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  • D
    Took a leap of faith and went full Corrin. Been meaning to try him out, and I'm glad I gave myself that chance. Others would tell me "well if it doesn't go well just switch after the first match", but I don't like using more than one character per tournament. I almost lost the first match against a lower level player, too (not that my Corrin is much better right now).

    The good thing, all my errors just felt technical. Nothing more practice can't fixed, whereas with Zelda it's the opposite and it sometimes becomes convoluted rocket science as to what you could've done instead.
    D
    Stuff started going to **** when I tried applying Phantom in neutral. :D
    S
    StoicPhantom
    That tends to happen lol. It's pretty difficult to figure out when and where to apply it and it's not always going to work the same in the same situation, because how your opponent reacts will differ, which further complicates things. You pretty much have to constantly adapt to your opponent's adaptation to Phantom. And that's before throwing in all the different MUs and ways different characters can counter. It takes a ridiculous amount of experience, to fully utilize it in neutral.
    D
    Was doing pretty miserable earlier. Another one of those unproductive sessions which you just felt you wasted your time... at the very least, I need to shake off some of the rust. I preach minimalism, but only to an extent. Went without playing for almost two weeks at one point, and it's definitely taking it's toll.

    Beyond that, I seem to be overcomplicating approaching. Should get back to the basics and press more buttons.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    like I'm either starting to overcomplicate the whole grab situation or I just need to get back to something I was doing before that was right
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    This game is also really confusing like you never know when to shield or grab and something as simple as Run > Shield is rocket science because a the guy just spaces away and can buffer an attack b your can't even ****ing shield in the first place because **** the animation or c even if you do try to grab they just hit you out of it because **** it
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    StoicPhantom
    Unfortunately, I think there's only a few characters in the game, that can just walk up and grab with no risk. It seems most character's grabs, are either too laggy in startup or the reward doesn't justify the risk. I'd have to review your matches and see precisely what you're doing, but I find that you have to find some other way to punish shields or setup a kill, the vast majority of the time.

    As for the game being confusing, I agree. It seems to really depend on the situation and MU. I tend to go about things with the general principles of, if they have a lot of space behind them and they're shielding or spacing aerials behind them, they are trying to bait a grab or dash attack. I just move up a little and then wait to see what they do.

    If they're spacing their aerials away from shield, they're trying to bait an OoS or other chase. I again, just move up and wait to see what they do. If they space into shield, then I OoS.

    If they don't have a good grab(speed and range), I tend to shield a lot and then bide my time until they overextend. If they do have a good grab, I try to keep them away with Phantom or disjoints and avoid being in shield, occasionally dash dancing to mix things up. I always try to be a little in front of their potential range, so I can shield any sudden aerials, even if that might make me miss out on an opening sometimes.

    In neutral, I try to never approach unless I absolutely have to. I'll dance in and out of their range a little, to make it seem like I'm doing something, or send Phantom their way. It seems like committing is far more dangerous than in any other Smash game I've played, and most people try to make the other commit first.

    It's just difficult to find a good situation to grab, as Zelda. It's startup is literally laggier than her most powerful options. There is almost no reason to, other than if they just sit in shield, which it is then too laggy to punish. That's when I primarily use Phantom, is when they just sit in shield, waiting for me to grab them. Phantom at least covers any whiffs and can sometimes lead to anti-air punishes or stage control.
    D
    also been bouncing back on the Corrin; jesus christ the luxuries of having a real grab. Even if his grab can be somewhat lackluster, the mere speed makes up for it. A guy a crapton of grabs where my opponent would otherwise spotdodge them against Zelda. And nevermind the tomohawks. It's amazing the kind of pressure you can create at shutting down shields.
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    D
    Deleted member 189823
    And I legit think Corrin is better here by sheer virtue of enhanced juggling. In Smash 4 it seemed a lot easier to just airdodge out of bull****, but here it's far more punishable. Even small stuff, like foxthrot dashing makes a difference in getting to places quicker where you'd otherwise miss. I even think Corrin beats Pichu (even pre-patch) because he really doesn't care about Jolts and half his moveset thanks to disjoints.

    Corrin is probably close to the best balanced sword character in terms of speed, weight and stuff like hitbox duration (really important in juggling). Lucina is probably the best at it.
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    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, I just meant that she doesn't get easy damage or confirms off of her grab, so there was no need to attempt to "balance" her grab from 4. I can't see any reason why it needed to be nerfed in the transition from 4. It wasn't exactly a safe or quick one before, now it's almost useless in most contexts. While I would say you should be using her quick KO moves like LK or Up-B for punishes, grab would be useful as a tomahawk mixup on shield. It's too slow to do that and opponents just use their frame 3 jump to evade. It can make shield pressure difficult, if you don't have time to setup a Phantom.
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    StoicPhantom
    I think a lot of characters benefit from the changes to disadvantage. I think a big reason why lots of characters weren't viable in 4, was due to those air-dodges and other defensive options being too strong, and allowing to many mixups for most movesets to handle. I feel like a lot of characters can pressure and take advantage of the opponent's disadvantage now. I feel like tiers in Ultimate, will be decided on how good a character's advantage state is. All of the currently considered top and high tiers, have a very punishing advantage state and characters that have a good neutral, but can't get that much out of advantage on most of the cast(Ridley), suffer in the meta.

    Like we both know Zelda, despite having a bad disadvantage state, can do tremendous amounts of damage and send the opponent offstage, on one neutral win. That's a large part of why she's viable, despite having a rather bad disadvantage state.
    S
    Got bodied by Hbox today. That was the worst player and character main I could have come across. I have no idea what I'm doing in the Jigglypuff MU and we have similar play styles and characters(floaty). I think I might have reverted to the typical online Zelda at points lol. I'm just not used to playing under that kind of pressure, it makes me do dumb things. I think I kind of feel like what Oz does now, in terms of dropping things I should now and not playing as good as I should. I just feel terrible in a way I haven't felt in a long time. I'm gonna try to bounce back and see about finding ways to practice dealing with that pressure.
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    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, you're right on that. I tend to skip things like that, because I'm not the type of person that likes to sit and do nothing, even though that's kind of the point lol. I do like the clarity it brings after I actually do it though, so I'm going to try to force myself to set aside time every day.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    Nobody likes to sit and do nothing nowadays. It's ingrained in our society that doing more is always better.
    Zelda's whole playstyle is probably the opposite of that. "The fool does a whole lot of nothing, while the master just sits"...which is ironic, coming from my own playstyle. But at least you'll follow through.
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    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, pretty much. I'm always focused on doing something mentally, and even though I give myself physical breaks, I don't really rest my mind as much as I probably should. So I probably should start meditating again anyways.
    D
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    StoicPhantom
    Lmao that face, he has no idea how he let that one slip through his fingers. Great turnaround, shame you couldn't pull it off for the full set.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    yeh it was very close 2-0 had I not dropped that 2nd match. Closest I've gotte to beating him. Can't believe I was that close to WF.

    I keep saying, it's ironic how my best placements and performance are my hardest brackets. I used to lose to jabronies when going 13th.
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    StoicPhantom
    Literally had you got the sweet-spot at the end of the second game, you would have won. A bit more polish and you'll probably have that MU.
    D
    Changed my mind, Phantom sucks.
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    StoicPhantom
    I figured, fighting games are frustrating. Was directed at that other guy as well, of whom I'm not sure of his intentions.

    I hadn't heard about him before either, but he placed 65th at GOML. Managed to 2-0 Keitaro, in addition to Gen. I think he's pretty good, although a bit too aggressive at times and needs to work on his Phantom follow ups a little more. Not sure why he lost to that random DK, though.

    Rolls can sometimes be good as mixups. Zelda doesn't have a particularly great one though, so use it sparingly.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    fighting games are not frustrating
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    StoicPhantom
    I find them frustrating sometimes. Or maybe it's trying to get good at them, that's frustrating.
    D
    I've been trying to incorporate Phantom in neutral a lot more these last two weeks or so. Can't say it's at the frequency of the average Zelda, but it's still a lot more that I've been used to. I'm still dropping the RAR displacement a bit, so that's part of the reason I sometimes avoid it.

    Something I noticed only a few days ago, is that it is true that it always forces *something*. A reaction, of any sort. Smart people either try jumping over it, or avoiding it altogether. I thought that was basically meaningless for us, but I realised even having to FH or double jump over it can lead to some sort of advantage. They still have to land, so there's that. I'll be looking into that.
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    StoicPhantom
    Match making is completely random and busted for me, so worrying about GSP isn't even worth it. Yeah, I might try going to the arenas, where I'm at in GSP, the matches are too intense to try something like that. I really could have used it on a Mii Gunner that was at 4.821. Manged to get him down to like 4.813 and myself finally breaking 4.8 mil. but it was clear we were at a stalemate, just trading games back and forth. I eventually starting getting too tired to keep up with all the spam and had to quit.

    That bomb of his, guarantees a grab on hit or shield and jumping will get you punished. The only way to beat it, is if you parry all the multi hits. Looking back, I think the RAR Phantom, would have protected me from his dash attack/grab and allowed me to escape the bomb. Same with his missiles, where he could mix up slow and fast ones, so reflecting wasn't always useful. Just got to be careful of his reflector, it has weird properties. Actually still had it's reflect box out one time, despite grabbing him, so I got hit out of my grab. It's weird.
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    StoicPhantom
    And I never tried the macro thing, I didn't really think it would be worth giving up my tilts for that. I think unless you don't use the right stick, it would probably be better to do it the traditional way.
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    StoicPhantom
    I've been doing RAR Phantom a little more in an actual match. Can't do it under lots of pressure, but it's a start.
    D
    Got 5th and still ****ed up. :D
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    StoicPhantom
    I'm not really sure. It might have something to do with the way disadvantage works, making it easy to reverse things. It just feels like it's harder to be consistent, than in previous Smash games. Might just be me though.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    I personally struggle with consistency since forever. I'd be borderline convinced I have a mental or physiological problem where my hands and or mind just work when they want to. :D
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    StoicPhantom
    I feel ya. For me, it's like I can think several steps ahead some days and just struggle to even react to what's happening others.
    D
    I think I really suck at analising matches. Either I feel the need to analyze literally every single interaction or I can't really capitalise on patterns (unless really obvious like roll, spotdodge or jump in certain situations, etc.).
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    D
    Deleted member 189823
    And I'm no stranger to online frustration. It's incredible that this silly thing has brought me more salt than an actual, live tournaments. I could get 3-stocked and I still wouldn't lose my cool... true story, by the way. Anyway, you're definitely on the right. Fear of loss is so ironic that it weighs you down.

    I don't know how you feel about the whole GSP thing. Are you attached to it? I know some players will likely make the mistake of thinking they're improving (or getting worse), depending on their score... and that's no farther from any truth. Like, if you have something specific you want to get better at, you're best swallowing your pride and focosing on it. Even if it does cost you some wins, it's what will eventually lay out the difference and make you actually better in the long run. Winning against certain opponents via bad habits is seriously no better.
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    StoicPhantom
    Oh oops, I guess there wasn't anything indicating you were referring to me. My narcissism is maximum. I went into why metabolism issues would prevent me from fasting, in that PM.

    I wouldn't really say I am overly attached to GSP, about the only time I get angry in that regard, is when the game keeps matching me with people significantly lower than me. Not only is the grind incredibly slow, which prevents me from playing the good players at the top end of Elite, one loss can invalidate like five wins. For example, I was playing Lucina with Mac yesterday, who was a couple hundred thousand lower than me. I won the first two, but lost the third, because lol random Fsmash killed me at 80. Despite winning more, I lost more than I started with and he gained more than he started with and he just promptly left with his winnings. That's just broken game design.

    No, the real issue is the "unfairness" of lag. It might seem a little childish, but I can get pretty ass blasted over things out of my control like lag or jank or RNG. I know the lag is inherent to online and that you should be expecting things like that and that online play shouldn't be taken seriously due to that, but I can't help but rage sometimes. I know when things can be punished and when they can't or how to beat certain characters, but lag can make doing those things difficult and I lose quite a lot of matches I would normally win, because of online shenanigans. Like you, I get mad at losing online way more than offline. And to add insult to injury, my opponent rarely has the awareness to realize this and starts acting arrogant and thinks he much better, even though the game is pretty close most of the time.

    It's stupid and I really should just be content in my knowledge that it wasn't my fault, but I can't help but feel cheated a lot. Yesterday was horrible and I kept getting matched with all the worst MUs of the characters I played and rarely found a decent connection.
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    StoicPhantom
    I am trying to calm that rage down though and am getting better at handling it. It's funny, because people normally consider me mild mannered IRL, but there is something about online competitive play, that brings out the monster in me.
    D
    It's almost 6 a.m and I just finished labbing RAR Phantom and some other combos for probably almost two hours... I need help. On the hand, I ended up getting it better down far better than I would've thought in only a day. My fingers also don't hurt as much as they normally would.

    I'm looking very confident that this can add a ton to my neutral. I even labbed a few combos and follow-ups with it. Hell, you can pretty much use your imagination. Even sourspot aerials kind of lead into something at times.
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    StoicPhantom
    Yup, there is quite a lot of things you can do with it, although that is part of what makes learning it so difficult and time consuming. It'll be interesting to see what you come up with.
    S
    I've been labbing that Dair > jump Up-b combo I posted in the combo thread a little more and discovered an Up-Tilt variation that will kill even earlier. Which led me to Up-Tilt > jump Up-B. I've only had time to test on Snake real quick, but it seems to kill at 70 on him. My friend was able to escape it by DI'ing up in our matches, but we didn't have the time to test it at other percents. I won't be able to test for a while, but that might be something interesting to think about.
    D
    Thank you for taking your time on my sets, once again. Now it's my turn, since I owe you one (at least).

    I'm not super good at going off the fly. I usually have to rewatch a match or instance a couple of times to really understand what's going on. Exceptions are really obvious mistakes, like bad rolling, spotdodging, etc. These are less likely for players of our level.
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    StoicPhantom
    You're welcome and thanks. I'll actually be out of town over the next few days, with no real internet access, so take as long as you need to.
    D
    I just made WR5 beating two Top 5 players. I’m doing well.

    Labbing DTilt > Kick pre tournament helped. :D
    D
    I want to beat Leo, Tweek, Nairo, Light, ZeRo and VoiD.
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    ~?~
    ~?~
    Depends who your main is. If you name some random low-tier or bottom end mid-tier character, chances are slimmer than the bodies of a starving socialist population.
    However, anyone with enough focus and will power to grind can get on that level with a decent character and take down thrones.
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    Deleted member 189823
    It's a bit early to say, unless you're literally Little Mac.
    lordofwood98
    lordofwood98
    Ok, so hear me out. In the Phineas and Ferb movie they create a dimensional portal device that sets off the whole movie and they have also created some of the most powerful superweapons known to man. Phineas and Ferb would obviously be able to murder Leo, Tweek Nario Light ZeRo and Void with absolute ease using the arsenal of deadly weapons that give them the power of every single avenger combined, such as a off brand Ironman suit or a potion that is so potent it caused the entire universe to be enlarged. They have even made 2 fighting mechs out of a treehouse that are the size of a building. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk
    D
    3 out of 4 of my sets are up, I just don't want to invade when other people ask for their own videos to be critiqued. I'm especially looking to see if I could weigh in one of your's, since it's been a while now...
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    They're not super pretty, but I'm fairly content at 4th place. A set I had against Bowser was one of my favourites, probably followed by the one against D.Pit (the Pichu I previously beat). This latter won the tournament, and well-deserved.
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    StoicPhantom
    I doubt it would hurt to post good tournament stuff on occasion, it's not like there are many people posting in there anyways. I kind of also been waiting for someone to post, so I don't double post and incur the wrath of the mods lol and I don't really want to tack my videos on that long ass post I did, for that guy that I don't think ever came back.

    I'll try to post some videos tomorrow, because again I have to sleep soon. I'll also see if I can find some relatively recent ones of MUs that I have trouble with. I'll also watch yours and comment when I do, so don't be afraid to post them in the video thread in the mean time.
    D
    I remember my first Ultimate weekly. It was awful. I didn't even have a Switch yet, so I could only take advantage of friendlies pre-tournament (did really bad; got 3-stocked in one of those even). I ended up getting eliminated by some Shulk that would spam spotdodge > smash attacks like 2-0.

    I think I did so bad that I got depressed and had like a sort of zenkai boost. Like a day or two afterwards, I would start parrying for the first time.
    D
    I've definitely used Phantom *far, far more* than I ever did (let alone in tournament), but I never actually started using it in neutral yet. I still keep what you said in mind, so I actually want to give it a chance. I think there's some truth to your Phantom hype. If you put a giant piece of junk right in front of your opponent, it's bound to force at least some reaction. Even if they're really fast and mobile, they still have to use one or two jumps to get over it, and it's not like we can't let it rip any time while we're charging.

    There's this guy at Discord that discovered that Zelda can cover pretty much every option with a perfect spaced F-Smash. And if you're perfect at setting up the Phantom, it actually covers the ledge invincibility wait... the only thing they have is to drop off the ledge, but it sacrifices their invincibility.
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    StoicPhantom
    Ok, that is actually ridiculous. If you have time to setup a Phantom, that is pretty much guaranteed that they will have to move within that time frame, which can simplify the ledge mindgame. I will definitely try and practice this.
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    Deleted member 189823
    What I was going at, exactly. He might have a video of it somewhere... either way, he mentioned it's a thing. You just need to start the charge right before they get up, which is what you mentioned earlier.

    Also, I realised charging it when you launched off stage a lot of smart players just don't even bother approaching the ledge. It's definitely the smarter option, but it also gives us a lot of room to get up safely off of it.

    If they don't:

    https://twitter.com/_jp53/status/1099544218031149057?s=21

    I've wanted to try it, but nobody is shielding by the ledge. lol
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    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, I tend to have it cover my getup quite often. You just have to be careful, because sometimes they will go offstage and interrupt your charge with a Fair and that will often take your stock. Fast characters are especially prone to doing that.

    I don't think that Up-B combo will work anymore, now that they nerfed shield damage from projectiles. Phantom now does a rather pitiful amount of shield damage, compared to before. Shield break combos like Phantom slash > LK or vice versa, don't really work anymore. Unless it can catch feet.
    D
    I didn't do the thing where I actually use Phantom in neutral, but I can't say I really tried hard at it. At first glance, it just seems like there isn't a ton of space to fully charge it- then again, it probably has to do with the Fox matchup in itself. That said, I've been starting to delay my Phantom at the ledge, which is starting to really, really improve my ledgetrapping game. Something as little as waiting half a second could earn you that Nayru's 2-Frame. And even if they just do normal getup, I'm simply just starting to grab them and reset the whole situation 3-4 times up to a kill.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    In an actual tourmament set, I manage to catch an Inkling a couple of times like that. It was really starting to narrow down their options at the ledge, lol... and nobody really ledge jumps, which would likely be a death sentence anyway.

    I want to reach a point where I will pretty much always 2-Frame > Slash unless they have a way around (which most characters don't). It's really not rocketscience.
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    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, there's not really any room in the Fox MU for it. It's mostly good as an approach tool, so if Fox is constantly in your face, there isn't much need for it. I tend to use it in neutral, when my opponent is camping and waiting for me to approach or is trying to space aerials that can't really be parried or shielded.
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    StoicPhantom
    I think the most optimal Zelda, is one that keeps herself in advantage. Games tend to end pretty quickly that way. My general plan is usually get them in the air > Up-Tilt/Up-air till they do something that lets me knock them offstage. Then you just ledge trap them into oblivion. On the off chance they make it back on stage, that's when you can sometimes pressure them into an LK or Up-air.
    D
    Did you check Anther's Ladder.
    D
    What's your data on U-Smash? You once said it can beat out stuff like Cloud's D-Air, or am I remembering wrong? There just has to be a sort of using for a decently strong kill move that's Frame 9, tie with Kick OoS as one of our fastest OoS kill moves.

    Also, what was that thing about using it at the ledge? Apparently that was also pretty decent strategy.
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    StoicPhantom
    Hmm, I'm not sure about Cloud's Dair, you might be confusing with what I said about Up-air beating it or I did say it once and didn't remember. I don't think it actually can, unless you do it before it fully comes out. If he doesn't space it correctly, you might be able to hit him with the outer hitbox of Up-Smash, but I don't really know.

    I'm honestly not too sure about it, I don't use it much, except reads or catching landings. I have had instances like being able to punish Shulk's Nair cross ups OoS, where Up-B or LK wouldn't be easy to do and killed him at 120. I think it might be worth looking into for things like that(aerial cross ups). It might also be useful as an OoS for when Up-B doesn't ladder at too high or too low percents. And now that I think about it, it might have some uses as a follow up to Dair stage spike on small characters that can't really be kicked or similar cases. It's hard to fit it in the current meta and it's my second least used move, next to Dsmash. I need to start researching it though, so I'll try looking into it, I wonder if those two will help cover some of the spacing holes that can crop up with certain characters/moves.

    As for the ledge, back when people ledge jumped more, it was fairly useful for catching jumps, but know that people are punishing jumps more, people opt for other getup options. If you get a read on a jump, it could still catch them pretty easily, but Up-air would probably be better in a lot of cases. It doesn't do much more damage than Up-air and is very unsafe on whiff, and smart opponents would just getup attack it.
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    StoicPhantom
    Apparently a lot of characters can just fast fall aerial and beat the startup on this move. This might be Zelda's worst move by a long shot. I can't think of too many situations where this would be better than anything else.
    D
    Pathetic.
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    Deleted member 189823
    Well I'm actually ZeRo's age, so that's probably better.

    yeah people will say they don't know the matchup they always make those dumb excuses.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    "wait youre saying zeldas kick kills at 50???"
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    StoicPhantom
    "Why does her Up-B knock me offstage at 40?!??" Paraphrasing Zero on an old Youtube video of his.
    D
    Good point on D-Tilt. There were actually a lot of times where I simply couldn't drop fast enough with Nayru's, which is when I started considering it (actually last week). It probably hits lower for a 2-Frame, but it doesn't seem to last as long as Nayru's.

    I really need to step it up. A lot of people are just waiting out my Phantom.
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    StoicPhantom
    Phantom's full charge will complete just a little before the ledge invincibility ends. The final charge will swing just a little after. That window is where you will have control of Zelda and will need to make the correct read. Phantom should cover neutral getup and getup attack, so you will need to handle roll and jump. Space yourself so that Zelda is somewhere between the center of the bottom platform and the edge closest to center stage, depending on hurtbox size. Probably closer to center of the bottom platform for most characters.

    From there, punch and horizontal slash should cover both getups, overhead slash should cover jump, and you can cover rolls. Rolls lose their invincibility about half way through, so time it as they are about to roll into Zelda or when they stop flashing. If that's difficult to grasp, go into training and space so that the punch will hit the cpu standing at the ledge, that's where you need to be.

    So try charging as the opponent is grabbing the ledge or is about to grab the ledge, that way you can cover as many options as possible. If you hit the final charge, wait and see what the opponent does or they might roll if you try to rush the ledge. They will have to move before the Phantom slashes so just focus on getting the read. If they normal getup at that time, let the Phantom attack first and read whether they jump, shield, or roll.

    It's difficult to time a lot of these though and might require reads more than reaction.
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    my guy
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    StoicPhantom
    I have returned. Had quite a lot happen the last week or so.
    D
    Weak Kick and Dair > stuff sounds kind of legit. You might've had a point about the stagger leading to a potential Up B. Did it a couple of times.

    I just did weak Kick trip > Up B at about 100 on a Snake, lol.
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    StoicPhantom
    I thought it might. Did you find a pattern or did it seem random whether they tripped/staggered or not? Might be useful if there is, given my reaction time is pretty bad.
    D
    Did you notice the latest trend in montages? They're too focused on "memes" for my taste. Not even in the actual plays so much... it was alright for a new thing, but now literally everyone is doing it.
    D
    1-2 in bracket. Again.

    This time it was different, though. I seem to be getting a far better hand at playing like I actually do. Felt pretty comfterble and really damn unshook. The result may not show it, but I know what I felt. Was pretty content with the WR2 set. It should be up during the weekend.
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    StoicPhantom
    Guess dealing with nerves just takes practice like anything else. Maybe your dream of getting top 8 at a major might happen one day lol. Was thinking about seeing if I could find a tournament and time to go on my annual medical appointment trip, but ended up getting sick the night before I was to go lulz.
    D
    Rare footage of Oz using Phantom?!
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    Deleted member 189823
    I'll show you later if you want.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    ****'s lit. Starting to feel more confident with it. Using it a lot more, but mostly just at the ledge (like I said I would). Looks like you can make your imagination run wild.
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    StoicPhantom
    I wouldn't mind if you feel like it. And yeah, you can get quite a lot of different things off of it, provided you get the read or have great reaction time.
    D
    Pathetic.
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    StoicPhantom
    I thought so. To be honest, I'm also struggling to improve. Kind of hit that stage where you have a good foundation and style formed, but also have your thinking narrowed as a result. So it's become a bit of a grind, trying to make small optimizations and improvements. I think I need to find good opponents more consistently now, so I'm going to actually stop being lazy and try arenas now. My friend having a rare break from his busy life and actually being able to come over and play offline showed me lag is a huge issue, especially as Zelda.

    It seems I'm mostly struggling because of lag, not being worse than I actually am, so I'm going to stop playing quickplay soon and try the arena, so I can hopefully get more consistently good opponents.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    Try Discords. Smashcords. I had an idea of being in all of the different character Discords so I can get different matchup knowledge.

    You sound like you've been playing only on Elite/Quickplay. I usually find good people very rare in-between, and some of them don't even stick around if you mess up (because **** them they aren't actually that good).
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    StoicPhantom
    You would be correct. Starting to really hate that mode, even enough to offset my laziness. I haven't ever used discord, but I'll try to look into it sometime. Also jfc has it really been almost a week since I've posted? Guess I've been busier than I thought, but that week went by way too quick.
    D
    Don't get discouraged by our combos. A lot of them seem deceptive, and as if they're not true. I've been failing to catch people under 50 with center DI playing online. They don't look it, but they definitely require a lot of timing and precision.

    They're not free, but hell as worth.
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    StoicPhantom
    I've been trying to practice them more. I did actually land a D-throw>kick on that zzs guy's Wario at like 50, so I'm getting a little better at landing. I'm just not particularly great at landing them out of a full hop yet. And I still need to land D-Tilt for those combos in the first place. Reading DI out of D-throw is also difficult, because a lot of people still don't seem to know how to DI out of them consistently or at all yet. So it can be difficult to read habits in that regard.
    D
    My Kirby main friend says other Zeldas really need to step it up. He seems to believe Kirby loses by -2 or even -3...latter a bit exaggerated, but he's pretty convinced on the former.

    also can kill heavies at 40-50 at the ledge with D Throw > Kick. Learn this and you'll be a nightmare.
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    Deleted member 189823
    So, what do you think? Was he good? Was a little hard to judge at the time. I was newer, had little to no experience against Wario and there was some mild lag.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    He's a Youtuber, by the way.
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    StoicPhantom
    Welp, it seems it didn't get recorded and neither did a lot of other recent ones. I might have run out of space without realizing. Guess some cleaning is in order.

    He was pretty good. Probably one of, if not the best Wario, I've played. I may not be remembering correctly, but I think the only real complaint, would be he didn't try to edgeguard enough. I've faced a better Wario in that regard, but I don't think there was any Wario I played, that was that difficult to KO and could pressure me that much. I did end up winning both matches, but he definitely made me sweat and was living to some ridiculous percents.

    It's a little more difficult to judge him as a player, because I'm not sure he knew the MU and I think it's a bad MU for Wario, but he felt like he should actually be at the GSP he was(around 4.080 mil. I think), and didn't rely on lag. I guess I could say he was about where you would expect a lesser known Smashtuber would be and there's only been a handful of people I've played that were better. There wasn't very much lag, either.
    D
    Did a pseudo Ignis Phantom trap Phantom Slash > D-Air on Kirby's Up-B. I didn't record it because it's probably standard for most Zeldas, but it was cool to achieve.
    I should really start exploiting forcing people into the Slash by 2-Framing them, since I always forget. I also notice a lot of people (myself, mostly) seem to Phantom way too early if they're not going for the 2-Frame. Charging too early means the opponent can just wait it out at the ledge with invincibility.
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    Deleted member 189823
    Pretty sure it's easier with Nayru's, since it lasts a lot longer, has invincibility and all that.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=jku_gRoFW-Y

    Game 2, I think this person becomes really badass with it. I thought they were a pushover, then they go ahead and do stuff like that...suddenly Phantom becomes really fun.
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    StoicPhantom
    The trade off is a higher commit and possible reversal, though. It depends on how quick you can make it down there, relative to the opponent's recovery. That is a good example of how Phantom is used, yeah. The edgeguarding is really good as well, that is something I need to work on.
    D
    Also legit starting to incorporate wavelanding to extend combos. It's insane.
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    Deleted member 189823
    I don't care it's lame I want to do cool stuff!!!!
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    I also want to review your matches one day after I get over the 5 min. marker one
    S
    StoicPhantom
    Well, take your time. The others aren't quite as long as the Marth ones. He was just extra campy.
    D
    I got my first jump read off of a Phantom trap!!!!!!
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    Deleted member 189823
    i burnt him
    D
    TOP 5!!!!
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    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, I'll get to it in a bit, I need to finish another reply.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    If I keep this up, Zelda will be BANNED. :D
    S
    StoicPhantom
    Sorry, I'm running a little slow and am having numerous distractions IRL. Good job on getting top 5, you are definitely moving up. I was going to ask about footage, but I see you've already posted them. I'll watch and comment on them tomorrow, I need to sleep for now.
    D
    zelda is heavy
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    Deleted member 189823
    Zelda doesn't care.
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    StoicPhantom
    Clearly she is this game's most busted character, going down in history like Brawl MK or Bayonetta. Ignoring weight like that.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    naw they die like the rest
    D
    You must really like Phantom.
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    Deleted member 189823
    I'm starting to lowkey trap people. You pretty much have to only read either jump or airdodge inwards.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, it sets up a 50-50, but getting a 50-50 on something that safe and easy is pretty damn good.
    D
    Deleted member 189823
    I'm going to start not sucking at Phantom. :D
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