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StoicPhantom

Smash Ace 32
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  • Oz o:
    I'm obsessed with Byleth I need help I can't wait another 8 days to see if I'm going to use him or not I don't want him to be my new Corrin.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I'm very read-based, haven't you seen? I main Zelda and still use Corrin. I've also mained Bowser and somewhat use Krool in this game, solidly. I feel like I can get around, depending on the final outcome.
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    StoicPhantom
    I guess I wasn't very clear, but I was referring to Byleth's lack of mobility and Sakurai stated poor grab speed, which I know are things you aren't fond of. Frame data too, and from what I can tell, he's slower than Robin in the air as well as slow on the ground. Robin actually has decent air speed and good frame data, just lacks ground speed, which people always overblow as an issue. Byleth seems to be mediocre at best in all of those, and is probably closer to Hero in that regard.

    So I'm not saying you won't be able to handle Byleth, just that you might not want to.
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    StoicPhantom
    FWIW aerials seem pretty good on range, so you could easily outspace your opponents and play a long range game, which is what looks like Byleth will be about. That's what I'm kind of excited about, because Smash doesn't have many long range characters and it will be interesting to have more diversity in playstyle. Guess we'll find out in a few days.
    Oz o:
    Do you have any advice about the whole situation when practicing with my friend? It's like he always keeps the exact count of wins and losses, and that honestly annoys me. I want to practice, not just focus on winning. When you play the same person over and over, at least 3 times a week for years, I doubt just knowing the matchup against them will get you far. I honestly just want to get rid of my ego and not be afraid to try new things, without the fear of losing.

    I think by the way you tell me, the situation between you and your friend, it honestly sounds a lot like we used to be in the first few months. I felt very dominant, only losing a few matches each session (very few, in comparison). However, when I started trying out Joker, and then Banjo, I feel he made quite a jump during the time, between my having to re-train Zelda to keep up until now.
    View previous comments…
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    WOW, it's just LIKE THAT. It annoys me when he gets in on his head that he's suddenly superior. >8[ That's why he's been doing a lot worse than me throughout the year, because he's just focused on learning the matchup against me instead of trying new things.
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    StoicPhantom
    That used to be my friend too. He would do well against me, but would fall apart against others. He eventually shaped up and really tried hard, but I was already pretty far ahead of him.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Picture this: you and your friend are playing really well. You one-up each other constantly, you know how to read each other and your habits.
    But then your friend just loses to some guy he "shouldn't" lose to in WR1. And then he wonders, how is it that he's not improving?
    Oz o:
    My online ran out. ),:
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    StoicPhantom
    So am I. Played some online today for the first time in a few months. It's as cancerous as I left it. Somehow still did alright, even though I felt very slow due to the lack of muscle memory. Managed to make a Megaman leave immediately with the most sudden Up-B OoS finish.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    But did your membership run out? ):
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    StoicPhantom
    No, but I didn't cancel it either and I guess I've payed for the last few months of not playing. >_>
    Oz o:
    That ledge trick with Phantom is sooooooo good. Applied it all throughout, yesterday. I basically get off the ledge for free.

    I don’t know if that alone made a difference, but I was beating my Wario friend like 7 or 8-0 at one point. Keep in mind that for the last 3 months he’s been consistently beating me like 80+% of matches. I’ve even gotten like 2-3 2 stock matches.
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    StoicPhantom
    Just be careful as some brave types with fast characters will blitz you and get a kill. I sometimes get complacent and die because I'm too close or predictable.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Hasn't failed me, so far. It's basically a free get off ledge.
    Oz o:
    my pseudo solution to people landing quick with shield:

    https://streamable.com/vfqri

    Just pretend he didn't hold shield for half a 2nd, but the idea is there. He tends to fall and quickly shield, and that was my problem with it or stuff like directional airdodge away (solid punish if read) or jump.
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    StoicPhantom
    Good mixup. I wish more people would do things like this, it'd make things more interesting and make things not as tedious as they are online.
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    Oz o:
    Still haven't fully dedicated into learning Telecancels, but I'm still keeping a couple of tabs open. I really want to have this, at one point. There's this guy on Twitter that's basically mastered them. He should be a contender for Top 5 Zeldas, and he's better than most others. Take a look at his stuff:

    https://twitter.com/katyparries/

    I don't know why he idolizes ven. He legitimately seems better (no offense).
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Also, check out JP. I'm currently not on the Zelda discord, but he's the only one I talk to.

    https://twitter.com/_JP53

    He posts a ton of clips on general utility.
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    StoicPhantom
    I'll check these out when I have time. Still need to help my friend and brother build their PCs, but I should be free to do what I want soon. I've seen a few of these before, good stuff.
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    Oz o:
    My friend called me out on me killing myself trying to do the Teleport cancels, but how else are you to practice them, if not in a real match? You can't expect to just perfect techniques by being comfterble against a static opponent in Training Mode.

    I proceeded to double 3 stock him out of annoyance.
    View previous comments…
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    StoicPhantom
    You just got to bully your friend hard with them, once you've mastered it. My friend still makes fun of me on the rare occasion I **** up my recovery, but I still body him 99% of the time.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    It’s stuff like this, getting over this, that makes the real winners. I haven’t reached that point yet, but you’ll be unstoppable when you stop being afraid.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    You know, ego and all.
    Oz o:
    What’s your stance on the Nair thing? I never had as much issues as people claim.
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    StoicPhantom
    I can't say I really understand people's issues with it. I've played skilled players that never DI out of it and it's really rare I have anyone fall out of it. I honestly don't understand the issue.

    The only thing I can think of, is people trying to drag down Nair like Smash 4 Zelda. But they should know that won't work by now and Nair -> Up-B wasn't exactly an easy or common combo to land back then either.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I’ve had the same experiences, though I admit it’s only been an issue as of late, but that’s mostly because I’m not DI properly myself. For example, they easily fall out if you do something like SH Nair sharing under a platform. Had to do with how you do it, and I’m pretty sure it’s mostly people using it wrong.

    That said, they’re partly not to blame, considering Palutena gets it for free, but whatever.
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    StoicPhantom
    Pretty much the only time I had that happen was when I was concentrating too hard and forgot to take my thumb off the stick lol.
    Oz o:
    Finally getting to practice Teleport cancels. :D Some of them are a lot simpler than they look. I'll see if I can make a visual cue sort of list. The ones from the center of the stage are the least consistent and riskiest, I feel. There are a least 2-3 you might be able to pull off consistently. The one falling from the respawn platform and the ones sliding off a platform are really easy.
    Oz o:
    I totally get ZeRo now, after all of this. I totally get it. I honestly feel good for him. This whole time, I wanted him to come back and do his thing, but it's very clear he's a lot better off not even bothering with this. He makes more money, he's having fun and he has a huge weight off his shoulders.

    Only difference is he actually accomplished something at the end of the day.
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    StoicPhantom
    And so I remembered that Smash is something I love and that's why I play it and I don't need to endure all that nonsense to play it. Even if I ever managed to get to the point where I could make it to a major and win it, I don't really see myself ever continuing to seriously compete. Once in a while would be fine, but I would absolutely hate traveling on a weekly basis. I flew once and hated it, I don't really want to have to do it frequently.
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    StoicPhantom
    Speaking of which, my workload is starting to diminish and I managed to play a little bit the other day. I'm surprised at how much I've retained, even though I haven't played for two months. I just had a lot to do and then had a lot of unexpected things dumped on me and so I haven't much time to do anything Smash related.

    Hoping to get everything done by the new year and then being able to relax for a bit. It was a nice break from the stagnation and frustration of online, but I've been missing Smash recently, so want to get back into the swing of things again.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    This is not to be mistaken; people shouldn't have to feel bad about competiting... if you want to, that is. I just think that, unlike myself, you shouldn't have to force yourself to do it because "it's the only way to be good". A lot of my usual practice buddies pretty much think like this since the start. They're about tournament, results and having to "prove" yourself through it.

    Our previous best, he's actually one of our friends. He's dominated the scene for 5-6 years, uncontested. He was always the one pushing that kind of mentality.
    Oz o:
    like yeah even keeping what you said in mind, it just feels like a waste of time and money at this point. I'm just going through the motions. If I'm going to lose, I'd rather at least play hundreds of friendlies where I can try again and at least not compromising the little dignity I have in my plays.
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    StoicPhantom
    That's totally understandable, especially as you haven't been happy with it. Hopefully you can find an enjoyable way to play.
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    Oz o:
    I just don't want to be this phony that only makes cool Twitter-like clips only to go barely go 2-2 in bracket. I want an extra leg to stand on. The only people I beat are people you beat easily, and automatically lose to anyone my skill level. Haven't gone over 9th in months.
    Oz o:
    I also feel like this will be close to the last time I'll burden about these things, like our message. I feel like I'm heading really close to a conclusion, whether it is to actually find a clear answer in my playstyle, or just quitting competitive Smash entirely.

    I don't know why it's so hard to pin down the concept of competiting against your own self. Maybe it's just a lot easier to fight people in front of view. Reminds me of an old quote:

    "Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.”
    Oz o:
    Last week was a little better. I did pretty bad in the tournament, but I felt good because our 2nd best here asked me for friendlies. It doesn't sound like a big deal, but I feel people don't just ask you for friendlies if they think you're a pushover or have no one else to play against. I actually did manage to sneak a couple of wins, and made him switch from his PT main over to WiiFit. Could've actually 3-stocked him in the last match if I didn't get too hasty.

    This was the same guy that spammed Squirtle D-Smash 5 times in a row in bracket the week before, which is why I was surprised he even wanted to play me.
    Oz o:
    What's really stopping Zelda from being good, at this point? Underdeveloped meta and lack of proper representation? People probably still think you need to fit this mold of "safe poking aerials" to be a top character in this meta, and apparently that doesn't stop characters like Snake or Joker (nonexistent OoS). Zelda's only real problem is how people play neutral, and apparently we should be at least solid if we play Phantom right.
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    StoicPhantom
    Honestly I think it's her player base. I predicted that we were going to be the bottleneck early on and it seems to be turning out correct. Even top Zelda players never took full advantage of her and always seemed to have some difficulty playing neutral with her.

    Although, I guess while I was away, ven 2-0'd Toph and almost beat MKLeo, so maybe we are starting to rectify that?
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Looks like MKLeo never even played a moderately decent Zelda in his life, looking at his interactions. A lot of the times he let him get away with unsafe aerials, and dropped shield too early against Nayru's. There's also a huge chance ven could've gone for D-Throw > Uair and it likely would've connected, but he was barely going for any Dthrow follow-ups, even at really low percents.

    Who am I to take the merit out of him? I'm just a little envious, honestly...
    Oz o:
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    StoicPhantom
    Lmao that's always great when that happens. Teabag to get bodied.

    Reminds of the time I tried to do that one move of Hero's that gives you a random move, against a Snake and rolled a slowdown status. He proceeded to try to Fsmash and I parried both times and killed him after lol.
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    StoicPhantom
    You're getting really good at those combos though, I wonder how he felt after that.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I legitimately wonder how people feel about that, everytime.
    Oz o:
    I really like our Uair, and I wish I could use it more. I really suck at the aiming. It's easily one of the strongest Uairs in the game, 20% damage and beats pretty much everything (stuff like Link's Dair).
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    StoicPhantom
    Just got to lead with it, like you would a sniper in a shooter.
    Oz o:
    >still not on Elite :D
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    okay I made it back to Elite after that
    and now I'm not (again)
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I honestly don't care anymore. There's a reason I don't aim for score, and that's precisely because it's stressful and makes you play worse.
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    StoicPhantom
    There honestly wouldn't be much point anyways. I have like half the cast in there and it is impossible for me to get the rest. The GSP threshold is now high enough that lag makes it functionally impossible to get in there. There's a "hump" just before Elite that makes you have to win many more matches than you would normally have to, due to being locked out of playing with the players above you. It got to the point were I would lose due to lag and then ruin my streak and take me hours of going up and down, before I would just give up.

    It truly is just something to screw around.
    Oz o:
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Pretty sure I just locked him and he either didn't do anything afterwards, or you can actually do something straight afterwards (not sure if he could've attacked or not). Either way, if he could get up with an attack, he was fried either way. It's very punishable, and likely ended in a grab either way. And all of this is funny, because it was the "optimal" DI (DI away). Goes to say, she definitely has options, even if she can't Kick.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Of course it was a dumb percent, he was at 0. :D
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Funny thing is, I've never actually labbed this. I started by simply trying it out in real matches. I'd have to start paying more attention to all the variables if I actually want to lab it. It's not ridiculously hard to get, since Dair isn't the only way to get it. I haven't tried this yet, but I'm theorizing D-Throw > Nair suddenly becomes a lot more powerful, with all this in mind. D-Throw > Nair is far easier to land, too.
    Oz o:
    Did really bad on Friday. I hate everything. :D
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    StoicPhantom
    Well, on the bright side, if you ever get over your mental block, you'll jump pretty far ahead in results, what with all of your tech skill and combo knowledge. It's not about not having it, so much as accessing it, it seems. And once you access it, you'll have all that practice with you.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    That's probably the dilemma for a lot of newer players, with all these fancy combos for bad neutral and no real way of exploiting openings. I rely a lot on reads for these openings, and smart players will rarely give them to you.
    Oz o:
    Since we apparently have similiar reaction time, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to incorporate some of that button pressing I talk about. Ideally, you'd do a lot of preemptive Jab1s, Dtilt, retreating Nairs and Dairs (catching rolls). Something like that. Jab has been very clearly buffed since Brawl & Smash 4, and it's kind of a mini wall you put up, lets you stun the opponent for a potential Dtilt and stuff like that. It's not necessarily mindless button pressing, and I feel Zelda players often let people in on their face because their too busy using slow zoning moves to have people get off of them.
    Oz o:
    RAR Phantom has been coming in easier, but I still can't say I've fully gotten comfterble with using it so much in neutral. I feel I should get into a match one day and just spam it, that way I get used to doing it. I'm really not used to not approach, which is mostly a bad thing for us.
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    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, that sounds like an ok plan. 90% of doing, is actually doing or however the saying goes. I tend to default to jumping over projectiles myself sometimes, and only RAR Phantom when the spam gets too much. It's all about ingraining it into your memory.
    Oz o:
    holy **** my neutral sucks
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    It's not so much that it sucks as much as the fact IT NEVER EXISTED to begin with
    D
    Deleted member
    My neutral: Hold my calamansi juice.
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    StoicPhantom
    Neutral kinda sucks in this game period, to be honest. There's much less to outwit your opponent with and it can be very "pick an option and pray". You just gotta understand the current situation and then go for one without any hesitation and hope you're right. I find just studying the MUs to produce the most substantial results. I can even play and win with other characters I don't know well, as opposed to 4 where you kind of needed to know what you were doing with a character, even and especially with top tiers.
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    Oz o:
    To think that out of all the technicals I'd end up practicing...perfecting Dair. Dair is -6 when you do it lowest to the ground, but apparently I still mess it up. It's a surprisingly good move in our kit. Combos at basically any percent and leads to ridiculous kills. Zelda's floatiness makes it weird to time, a bit (at least for me). It's hardest out of a Full Hop, for me. It's especially good out of a cross-up.

    I must've gotten that one ridiculous combo like 10 times, today (including 1-2 0-deaths out of it).
    View previous comments…
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    like yeah it's pretty slow, and especially when you're trying to delay for a super low fastfall. A lot of character's best bet is probably throwing out an attack, but I find a lot of people just automatically airdodge and I get another Dair > stuff. I'm getting insane conversions off of this single move, and I'm almost starting to believe it's our best move.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I'm going to PM you the stuff I did...I don't want all of this stuff out there, lol. I can't even trust the Zelda guys on Discord.
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    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, I've been finding those airdodges annoying in Ultimate, but Dair does look like a good counter to them. Unless you're dealing with some quick and large disjoints of course.
    Oz o:
    I'm practicing Instant Pivot Grab. I feel like this will be really useful for me (and basically any Zelda player), considering it ridiculously outclasses Dash grabbing.
    View previous comments…
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    RAR Phantom is nowhere as hard as it used to be, and it's partly due to Banjo also constantly using RAR Down B.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Get down to practicing the things that make Zelda broken, like the Up B DI mixups (DI'ing into the opponent), platform extension combos (like Dthrow > Dair reset or Nair dragdown > Up B) and perfecting Down Throw > Kick past 50+. I still never really gotten down into fully experimenting with it, and it's too broken to leave behind. I've killed characters like Ganondorf and Wario at 40, and you just can't ignore that.
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    StoicPhantom
    I've been so busy as of late that I haven't touched Smash in weeks, but hopefully that'll start dying down soon, at least until Christmas. Gonna need to do that as my friend will be coming down here and his Falcon is looking pretty good.
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