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ZSS Video Critique Thread!

BioDG

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
609
This method works. Thanks once again for your help. :]

2:06: Yeah, I was told that strategy works in this MU so that's how I approached it. I could be mistaken, though.
3:08: Not sure what you mean here since when I play it back, I ledgehopped a little before 3:08. Whatever the case, there is no particular reason. I usually avoid climbing onstage so as to not get hit out of that...though I should probably mix it up.

@Tesh: Yeah, that's why I didn't post it.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
I'm gonna beat you next time, and when you post the videos here, NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO HELP YOU.
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVTTq1SZjqA

Just a warning, I'm pretty bad. This was my 2nd tourney (lol my first was SiD 1). I tried to stay safe because I heard this dude was pretty good (almost beat HolyNightmare in GFs at this tournament), and I know nothing about this MU, so I didn't play as aggressively as I usually do.

FYI, me rolling at 0:27 was accidental. I was trying to pivot grab (to do the infinite), but my pivot grabbing is trash XD
 

Dr. Tuen

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,396
3DS FC
0559-7294-8323
Hey all!

I just got my youtube channel up. It's in my signature, but I'll post a link right here too just in case...

http://www.youtube.com/user/ProjectZeroSuit

Any advice on any of the videos (especially the MK ones...) would be greatly appreciated! General tips are great too, since this is my first event as Zero Suit... and I did quite badly, hah.

Thanks!
 

Deathfox30

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Messages
483
I only watched a few but here are some general things:

Don't be so aggressive against Mk. You kept getting up close and getting D smashed like all of game 1

When you down B to the ledge, hold down so you don't wall jump...

Punish Mk's glide attack with U tilt, not grab

Uhm, don't roll so much?

I didn't see you DAL in any of the games, but you should learn to buffer your dash attacks with dash + up on the C stick. It's better because if you mess up you'll usually U smash as opposed to D smashing.
 

DRN

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
1,069
Location
Route 12
Hey all!

I just got my youtube channel up. It's in my signature, but I'll post a link right here too just in case...

http://www.youtube.com/user/ProjectZeroSuit

Any advice on any of the videos (especially the MK ones...) would be greatly appreciated! General tips are great too, since this is my first event as Zero Suit... and I did quite badly, hah.

Thanks!
I've never really done a critique so i'm sorry if it doesn't help much
[collapse='Tuen vs JediNoah 1']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlWUEUEQm2Q
0:19
After a whiffed grab like that you dont have time for a dsmash. The only moves i believe you could have done there to hit him would be a dash attack or uptilt.

0:31
Instead of trying to dsmash his landing try a dtilt or a dash attack. Dtilt is better here though because of the possible uair follow up.

0:34
Dont be afraid to go to the ledge instead of going after him after getting dsmashed. Most of the video u decided to down b into him instead of just grabbing the ledge and resetting positons. mk can easily punish down b

0:54
At lower-mid %'s you want to do fair and connect with both hits instead. It racks up more damage and doesnt stale your bair.

0:59
If mk is super high in the air you could always try to pull him down w/ a down b for more dmg ;D

1:14
Dont try to dsmash mk right in his face or you'll eat a dsmash. Jab is only 1 frame and since he wasnt shielding he wouldnt be able to stop u.

1:29
If mk is gliding at a stupid height like that then you might as well and go for an upair to punish. If he somehow is able to glide attack your upair then it'll just end up clashing and nothing will happen. Heck you could even run under him and upsmash him if he glides like that.

1:38
Like deathfox said. Grab is to slow to punish glide attack. Punish w/ uptilt or jab

2:11
Grab the ledge instead of running into mk. It'll prevent gimps like this.


General Tips from the match
-Dont be afraid to attach to the ledge. Most of the time you down b'd onto the stage and got punished instead of just grabbing the ledge.
-Dont run 1/4th the stage and try to dash attack. Its easily read and gets punished like no other.
-Dont dair so often. You may be able to catch him off guard like once but if they have decent reactions/spacing then they can easily get ya w/ an uair.
-If you do catch him w/ a grab at low %'s instead of throwing i personally like to just grab release>dash attack>jab for a little bit of extra dmg. Dthrow>uair can work but isnt 100%. It all depends on their di/%'s/if they know whats coming lol.
-Dont roll so much, especially backward. Forward roll can catch your opponents offguard because of its speed but if you over use it then obviously they will expect and continuously punish you for it.
-I didnt see you use your gun once. It is not a useless move and its very good in helping zss keep opponents at bay and away from you. If you have armor and your able to stun someone with your gun you could easily follow up w/ a glide toss throw. The gun can also help get you grabs and dash attacks depending on their distance.

[/collapse]
[collapse='Tuen vs JediNoah 2']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pia1xfI598s
I skipped around during this match since i dont have much time before i g2g :[.

0:33
Try not to dash attack mks shield but in this situation if he puts down his shield after then you can uptilt him right after.

0:48
You can chase mk in the air with Up B if you cant reach him with your jumps. It racks up damage and can lead to possible follow ups.

1:21
Our grab is really sensitive to heights so dont grab on slopes when opponent is below

1:44
If he dairs ur shield you can always up air oos. Its extremely quick

3:10
If mk is just sitting on top of a platform and your under him then just upsmash him. If he shields upsmash will almost always shield poke and hit him. Up air on the shield isnt safe.

3:28
Ledge is your friend :[. Most ppl will see the kick coming after the first one so dont throw it out carelessly except in the situations they have cant prevent it (lag on their moves/ect). Kick on mks shield is especially not safe because of his dsmash.

----------Sorry have to stop here(need to wake up early tmr)-------------

General Tips from the match
-Dont leave your armor pieces laying around unguarded. Some characters such as diddy/mk/ect can really take advantage of them.
-I only saw you glide toss once in this video although i did see you roll alot in the beginning so i can assume you were trying to glide toss at those times. In your spare time try to practice glide tossing so you can consistently do it. It can really help rack up damage w/ armor.
-If mk is on the ledge it is safe to dsmash near him at least once. It not only pressures him but there isnt much he can do but get off if you do a dsmash. If he doesnt then he'll each a dsmash and u get a free punish. Of course im not saying to spam dsmash on the ledge since multiple dsmashes can be punished.
-Try not to side b mks glide attack. It extends your hurtbox and mk can almost always hit you before u hit him unless you have amazing spacing of course lol.
-Try to mix up some of your landings w/ nair instead. It has almost no lag after landing and is safe for the most part. Its better then always air dodging to the ground


[/collapse]
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
9,800
Location
Land of Nether
Tuen vs Tommy (Falco)

A good start is doing a dropthrough+Z(instantcatch) on battlefield, that way you have an armor piece and you just dropped through the platform.

Overall you should work on your followup game, stuff like dtilt>utilt doesn't really work.
At 0:16 you also throw out a random fair, which isn't something you can really do, because you'll get punished for random moves. This ain't Marth, this ain't MetaKnight. We have to space our moves, because they're probably punishable if they don't hit/scare the opponent. If you throw out random moves, at least full hop them. Our short hop is trash.
Also, don't backroll. Just, really try to never backroll.
You can downB jump off of items like your own armor pieces, use that when recovering.
Shielddrop > utilt is a viable punish. Don't be scared of your shielddrop lag, because it's way overrated.
Really, shielddrop lag is overrated, you always spotdodge to get out of shield.

If someone is above you, that's the time to strike. If you think jumpuair is obvious, why not go for an upB, or upSmash. Talking about 0:50 here.
Be more confident in your followups, learn your hitconfirms. If utilt is blocked, have a mixup game ready to try to avoid the punish. Overall use less utilt, it's -44 on shield lol
Be less one dimensional in your juggles. If you uair someone TWICE with the same method, its quite obvious theyre gonna mixup, and the thing with ZSS's vertical acceleration is that if you miss a rising uair, you're in a baaaaaaaad position. Overall its way better to do falling uairs or stuff like upb. We ain't mk, we can punish airdodges but not with spamming uairs.
Overall, work on your followup game and spacing. 99% of the time you don't capitalize on a good hit. A falling uair sourspot should be a free utilt or reverse dtilt. You can even dash past them, wait for the spotdodge, and pivot grab or something.
You jab a lot, which isn't a bad thing per se, but hitting a jab is 1% damage+reset, hitting a dtilt is >1% and a very good situation. Same for utilt, but less much of a good situation.

A game with ZSS against someone who isn't that good and doesn't know the matchup is oftentimes a combo video on it's own, lol. They don't know how well we can string and we have immense range to keep our pressure going. Offstage sideB's for kills at 70%, upBs NEVER get airdodged if they dont know about it. (hint: Its really good)


Tuen vs jedinoah MK 1
Learn to glide toss.
Dont backroll.

Overall, dsmash is really good for up close pressure, but it's weird to throw out because it has a ****ton of startup, that's why, like I told you, you need to read when people shield. After a dsmash on shield, youre pretty much advantaged, especially in a crossup.

I think this will do for now, telling you much more is useless until you have stuff like this in your system. You don't really know the character yet, which is hard, so I don't blame you.
 

Dr. Tuen

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,396
3DS FC
0559-7294-8323
Thanks for the tips! I don't have a lot of time for a response at the moment, but I will say... I do know how to glide toss :-p (I had peach for a secondary for quite some time). I just roll when I get panicky.
 

Paw

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
877
Location
San Antonio, Texas
NNID
pawzor
I only watched the first game, but it felt like you were short hoping and jumping around way too much without thinking. Also, just started to get predictable near the end. Also......the last stock...omg..
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
@Mink
I'm by no means an expert but I noticed a few things about your playstyle that you may want to work on

You jab a lot, and you almost always approach with side-bs
You don't dtilt a lot, or get in a lot of uairs.
You don't use the paralyzer very much. A very useful technique is run away-pivot uncharged paralyzer (I picked up it from Dakpo)
You seem way too bent on getting a fair after dsmash, even at non-kill percents. In particular, in the match against Snake, you did dsmash > jab > 2nd hit fair. Dsmash x2 > nair/uair would have done more damage. And I don't think I ever saw you get dsmash x2 > fair (both hits), which is like a godsend for ZSS XD

As for Ike, I believe we have a dsmash lock on him. Also, Ike approaches with aerials a lot, so (like with Wario) usmash is good in this MU. Especially since Ike's aerials all have transcendent priority (I believe), you won't have to worry about taking damage cause his fair won't cancel and go through your usmash.

Edit: Also, you don't glide toss very much with your items.
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
9,913
Location
Florida
My Zss vs Luigi
------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQOIIpr1-OY&feature=related

Zss doubles match
---------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5mt6Sq_wwY&feature=channel_video_title

Zss vs Snake
---------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9F0FWP2MeA

Im a zss main btw lol
And i just wanted to know what you guys think about how i approached the mus and etc. anything can help thanks!

I don't know about them, but I do not critique wifi.
Wifi is stupid like that.


I'll do some offline vids later this week maybe~
 

ZeroN92

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Messages
28
My offline matches aren't recent but thats how i play now so idk, i'm trying to get an accurate playstyle for my zss though so i just wanted to hear some thought or anything.
 

Zero

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
5,825
Location
ワイヤード
Few things I noticed in the match vs Nike.

1:57 and 2:06 were pretty much carbon copies of the same, bad situation for us. Marth stands just outside our zone, covering pretty much every single option you can do. IMO this is a genuinely terrible situation for ZSS to be in in this MU, but it's much safer than landing. But getup attack wasn't going to hit first time, and sideB shouldn't be used in that situation.

Some bad capitalisations on some situations like the double dsmash land at 0:26 and reading the jump-ledge at 0:45, and a little too conservative with edgeguarding at 1:14. I find that run off reverse tether retract is a good strategy, like what lots of TLs/Samus' do, except we have the benefit of instant getoff.

A decent match otherwise imo.
 

shlike

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
896
Location
Brownsville, Tx (RGV)
I completely agree with dakpos idea. Lets breathe some life into these boards and further our metagame.

Also this a 3/5 set with nike.

I felt like I played really sloppy and made a lot of careless mistakes, but then again i've been out of practice for a while. Any critique helps

match 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-YgJhgf6MY

match 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDwXeU7Dzic&feature=related

match 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2EYlGM3rD0&feature=related

match 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpXrM8UDDl0&feature=related
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
12,918
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Orlando, FL
NNID
PapaMink
Match one i noticed that you did alot of dash attacks. Your platform cancelling was spot on, besides the one missed down air you were punished for. At the end of his first stock i felt like you were fishing for side-b's too much. Your armor control is amazing btw.

Wow, match 2 you are putting in some intense work man. That silent paralyzer was nicely done. Granted he ****ed up hard.

Match 3: nice gimp. 0:40 great spacing on the down b hitbox. Amazing spacing this game. It seemed the majority of the time that you were punished is when you Utilt on shield. You may want to try to mix it up with ftilt. or a jab to get him to OoS Up-B. That seems like his usual punish and that move is highly punishable if you can create a habit out of it.

In match 4 i'm also seeing alot of punihed on your on shield utilts. 3:25 nice spacing.

with the exception of the first match, you did pretty well. You use Utilt ALOT. I know i'm not an amazing player, but thats my 2 cents. Your side B spacing is really ****ing good. And your platform cancels are gorgeous.
 

shlike

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
896
Location
Brownsville, Tx (RGV)
Yeah i utilt alot, i need to work on my mixup game and punish better, I missed a lot of dsmash followups and messed up on pivot dsmash : /

Thanks mink :)
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
9,913
Location
Florida
stutterstep*

Dakpo, a response to your video will be uploaded in like half an hour.
I will also be asleep at that time.

I'll critique the vids in here... before Saturday.
 

Dakpo

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
1,912
Location
Denton, Texas
@Shlike
Video 1
0:24- heh, the B reverse off the platform....we all try it...but we mostly get punished. Its something lesser players that are unprepared fall into all the time, but it always ***** us against better people. Honestly I'm just going to try and stop it. To many people just run with the shield button down these days.
0:35 I noticed a big problem in your armor game, and again, it is prominent within many zss players including myself. Picking armor up with Dash Attack EVERY TIME YOUR IN A HURRY. we could save so much damage if we just took the extra frames to walk forward and grab it or rising fair. I mean look at how calm ADHD and Gnes pick up Bananas. Although they do use Dash attack, they are often seen picking them up normally as not to get punished. We will see this through the set.
0:44 lol
Hmm so I'm starting to see that you like to fight marth's fair with Dash attack. I think thats super risky. If you watch my set with haze, you can see how i like to deal with fair spam. Shlike I give you the olimar tactic. Run shield marths up fair and do 1 of the following. Up smash OoS if he lands in front of you, or if you catch him and shield his rising fair then Up air OoS. Out of Shield options are what i believe are going to make zss rise in the tier list and change match ups, VERY much so like they did with olimar. so take a look at like these examples to get what im talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smhVDIGUpKI#t=00m19s
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smhVDIGUpKI#t=00m26s

1:32 - I kinda over looked this error, but i caught it on a second look. I'm not sure why but you hit him way up and screwed the landing trap up really bad by using your second jump to go backward. If you had moved better with the jump, I'm pretty sure you could have had him.

1:36 Shield poke?
1:39 at this point your just eating damage, i would recommend sitting on the ledge and just chilling out (Like you do a little bit later),stopping Nike's momentum because you just kinda start throwing moves out like the badly spaced side B.

1:53- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smhVDIGUpKI#t=00m26s
1:56- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smhVDIGUpKI#t=00m26s

2:25 I love have you went down low, great option
Yet again be careful of those risky dash attacks that may or may not land, they equal greater punishment.

2:37-2:51 O___O so much ****....hmm my opinion on that- try to jump away or as i said earlier, be patient and just chill on the ledge for a bit and collect yourself while stopping his momentum. But give him credit where credit is due. Good **** Nike

from here on out you get punished for dash attacks a lot. stop dat Xp

3:35 hold down :)

4:06- that was pretty :)

Besides that first match, you were pretty dominant. Fun set to watch. I think if you start to incorporate the options i have given you, then this set would have been 3-0, Just apply the above mentioned to the other match ups as well.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
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Location
Orlando, FL
NNID
PapaMink
infinite.

Game 1: On the last stock you were pushing too hard for the kill. Be more patient. Don't do high risk moves when you're at such high percents. Just keep it cool. You have the percentage lead.

Game 2: Try using "The Nick Riddle". After you do a low % dtilt, charge a dsmash and wait for them to fall into it. You could have had it multiple times. Stop using back throw so much, it only does 6%. Damn, nice spike. Awful DI by that snake though. Okay, you're at 116% and he's shielding, the last thing you should be doing is DA'ing his shield, just wait for an opening. He's going to camp those last stocks off you. That was some amazing momentum you started building on your second stock. Nice win.

Game 3: I think you roll ALOT man. GOOD bait on that dthrow. OH ****. That back air ****ed u up. Nice finisher. I was really hoping you didn't end up losing that haha. I saw the timer, and then the combo.
 
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