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ZSS Video Critique Thread!

shlike

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
896
Location
Brownsville, Tx (RGV)
most recent vids of me. I'm unnecessarily and overly aggressive and i know this but i can't seem to stop playing this way. ITS TOO FUN. (except against sei----brik) he ****ing wrecked my **** hard at whobo nick i got gimped every 15 seconds. teach me that mu plz. Also tell me other stuff i did wrong in these matches por favor. <3 zss boards.

Friendly set against rei-gun's marth

Game 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6inlmTQ2mE
Game 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s28N83FBj6o
Game 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZT9mntMu4Y
 

FEAR977

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
138
I wish my zss was even close to as aggressive as yours. Mine is way to defensive. Great matches.

:phone:
 

Deathfox30

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Messages
483
heres a tourney set i had vs a local snake main. I kind of feel i know where i messed up (i do a bunch of dumb stuff >_>) but i'd love to have other peoples imputs.

http://youtu.be/A-qBWriaVLc
http://youtu.be/8swku0FlcE8


Thanks!
Game 1

Why don't you CG him? You pivot grabbed him at around 20% last stock and back throw'd him. At the beginning he F smashed. You should've been able to grab him and chain grab him once or twice.

You miss a lot of guaranteed damage (CG/2nd D smash) and you let Snake get back on stage and get down way too easily. Other than that you played pretty well.

Game 2

:24 Grab him

He shield dashes a lot and immediately shield drop f tilts when you hit his shield. Usually he shields your D smash. You can just jab him after he shields your D smash and it will always hit him before he can f tilt you unless he powerhshields. You should use jab a lot more. Close range D smashes and d tilts got you F tilted a lot. Jab/U tilt is better.
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
9,913
Location
Florida
most recent vids of me. I'm unnecessarily and overly aggressive and i know this but i can't seem to stop playing this way. ITS TOO FUN. (except against sei----brik) he ****ing wrecked my **** hard at whobo nick i got gimped every 15 seconds. teach me that mu plz. Also tell me other stuff i did wrong in these matches por favor. <3 zss boards.

Friendly set against rei-gun's marth

Game 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6inlmTQ2mE

1:01
Space side-b if you keep predicting DB.

2:55
Risky business. Glad it worked out in the end... you could have died.

Game 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s28N83FBj6o

0:18
U-tilt.

0:28
Dat Snakeee Status.

0:43
D-smash > d-tilt pokes shields like that.

3:02
Do that same DI, then dash-attack him for it.

4:44
Dat D-smash.

Game 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZT9mntMu4Y

0:31
Combo video GO!

1:29
Dash-attack > d-tilt.

1:50
With that much time, you could have ledge-hop down-bed for the kill.

3:09
May I suggest platform cancelling with bair? (Down on stick, and back on c-stick) if you mess up... you bair instead of dair.

Umm... wow, you're aggressive.
I like it.
Except for the part where you're ALWAYS aggressive.
Try camping a little bit more? It helps.
That's one down.

heres a tourney set i had vs a local snake main. I kind of feel i know where i messed up (i do a bunch of dumb stuff >_>) but i'd love to have other peoples imputs.

http://youtu.be/A-qBWriaVLc

0:31
Nair > nothing?
Dash attack at least.

0:45 and 0:54
Double d-smash on hit-confirm.
You've been playing ZSS long enough that you should be able to do that.

1:27
Snake is obviously going to go high. Assume he is and hit him with bair.

2:12
Don't go after the d-smash if Snake is in this position. Either do it earlier... or don't do it at all.

2:44
YOU COULD HAVE BEEN DEAD!

3:01
Back uair > d-tilt.

3:03
From that spacing, don't b-throw. The damage isn't good enough if the opponent doesn't go cleanly off the stage.

3:09
Spike.

3:29
Under the C4 you're going to do that? You're a brave, and dead, soul.

3:59
Up-b might have killed him there.

4:09
Brave, but less dead.

http://youtu.be/8swku0FlcE8

0:24
D-tilt/u-tilt/grab.

0:42
Good stuff. :D

I'm glad you won after the SD in the first stock.


Also...
You just need to work on follow-ups, basically.

Thanks!
That's another.

Mink, your Jiggs is amazing... For reals.
Unfortunately, I do not know the Diddy MU too well, and it just looked like BigLou was controlling your landings/air-dodges really well.
Your jab mixups are good, but you keep playing ZSS like Jiggs. (Too much jumping and throwing moves out.)
 

Paw

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
877
Location
San Antonio, Texas
NNID
pawzor
Thanks for the critique deathfox and nick, i definitely need to work on my followups. I don't know why i don't d smash twice sometimes, too anxious i suppose.


Very much appreciated.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
12,918
Location
Orlando, FL
NNID
PapaMink
I feel like, the more ground based my game is, the worse i will do...

Those damn bananas.

Thanks for the help though, and the compliment.
*goes to GDX and Radix*
 

Abel1994

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
1,882
Location
Dacula,GA
I wana use ZSS now :/

I sstill dont know why she is so high on the tier list though because I suck with her lolimar recovery
 

Dakpo

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
1,912
Location
Denton, Texas
Well its been a while since i critiqued any vids but here we go
And as usual, please don't feel like I'm putting you down in anyway when i critique. I see some very cool stuff with your zss and I'm just trying to help you polish it.
Match 2 on Brinstar
...hmmm what are you doing with your armor? You threw it...at nothing and just let him have it. If anything get under him and throw upwards and chase him into the air.
Right off the bat I see you putting way to much commitment into your moves. What I mean by this is that you are spamming Side B and Down Smash at the wrong time. Times where you are very vulnerable. So like at 0:10 Diddy picked up that armor piece you so nicely gave him. Why would you Side B when diddy has an armor piece?
0:18 I feel as though side B is a bad option to punish the air dodge. Try fitting some tilt punishes.
0:18-0:30 STOP ROLLING!!! lol honestly man. Its killing you so bad. If you would up tilt or down tilt when he rolls next to you then you would be way better off. This rolling habit makes quite the mess later on.
0:30 Spamming Side B to edge guard diddy is waaay bad. You get punish multiple times on the edge for it. Try being more patient and just know when to back off when you don't have the safe punish.
1:03 stop using Side B. Its honestly not very good when diddy is in fair distance. You should try to be more aware of diddy's options in the air.
1:36 be more patient on the ledge...diddy is really fast
1:40 lolwutcombo?
2"28 stop doing stuff and just wait
2:59 Ok diddy has a banana and you do a high commitment attack? cant do it :p
3:41 wait ..he is too fast >_<
3"58 If you did an Up Air out of shield then you would have won right there
4:17 really bad time to use side B Could have easily cost you game.
Over all too much Side B when you in range of getting punished. Never Do it if they have a banana

Match 3 Yoshi Island
You should really look into improving your armor game. It seems really lacking. Maybe hold one piece just to punish stuff out of your shield
0:10 Really bad habit of kicking out of side B. You should just stop that all together. It gets your punished multiple times during the set
0:16 HARD READS!!! I LOVE IT!!!
0:20 nice pivot grabs!
0:26 keep it up baby ;)
0:29 stop kicking >_<
k from here on out there are just a lot of unnecessary rolls. Im just going to label the times and say (bad roll)
:34 (bad roll)
:47 (bad roll)
1:46 I think you should have short hopped instead of full hopped. I also feel as though you should have baited the air dodge. Zero suit does it very well and you will see all the top zss doing it (Although your opinion of the top zss players might be different from mine XD)
1:55 that full hop just puts you in a bad place. try picking the banana up with short hop fair or just a different way all together
2:11 YOU GLIDE TOSSED UPWARD WHY!??!?!? what good would a banana do way up there when your approaching a character with decent kill moves and your at high percent ???? But you got rightfully punished for doing it so...
2:36 This may sound crazy and you will never hear this from any other zss, but i would have gone for a foot stool. Free stock plz?
2;42 O__O ouchies!!! that just about lost the set for you
3:03 (bad roll) dont back roll ever
3:10 try the nick riddle and jab to run behind pivot grab...its a tactic that shouldnt work but does lol i feel slightly silly when i get it.
the gimp at the end was just you being careless.

Over all just work on your basics such as item control, Rolling habits, Baiting air dodges, more patient ledge game and overall learning the range and speed of diddy's fair.
Good luck and hope this helps
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
12,918
Location
Orlando, FL
NNID
PapaMink
Thank you very much!
I don't take any critiques as pessimistic. I lost, so if anything i desverve it.

Thank you very much for your help!

I'm getting better. Watching them again... i don't know wtf i was doing with that armor.

and i know i have a Side B addiction.
sigh.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
9,800
Location
Land of Nether
Sorry but I have the feeling that Kaos was sandbagging you. He let you recover so easily and play so aggressively, which simply shouldnt work.

I could critique it but I really feel like he wasnt trying his best, so yeah.
 

quiKsilverItaly

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
268
Sorry but I have the feeling that Kaos was sandbagging you. He let you recover so easily and play so aggressively, which simply shouldnt work.

I could critique it but I really feel like he wasnt trying his best, so yeah.
I'm not sure he would do that on a big tourney in a set for place 3 and trailing 0:1 against me.
The first match was trashy, but in real it was the last match of the set. My head just got ****ed up on the last match cause he got every match better, so just watch the others (ofc you can critique that one too)
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
9,800
Location
Land of Nether
Kaos played ****loads with Charby, hes way confident against ZSS. The same argument could be held for Orion, but I dont think it counts.

Lets just give an example in your first match (the actual first match), where Kaos charged a fsmash, you downB over him and he keeps charging, then proceeds to DI the kick wrong. Or thinks like letting you dair back on stage and not punishing it while hes right next to it.

No disrespect or anything.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
6,345
Location
New York, NY
3DS FC
5429-7210-5657
OK!

0:08 - OK so, good thing: you know to shield after popping falco into the air and then punish when he hits your shield instead of attempting to juggle him (dair is too good). Bad news, you don't know your options. The reality is that falco's dair on shield in this situation is so safe that you don't have many choices. If he spaces badly (not here) you can utilt, jab, etc, but if he doesn't, you can only really run away or dtilt which are both punishable. Dtilt would have probably worked here, but I would try to buffer something afterwards to punish his punish, so to speak.

- In general, falco will phantasm, and at this point in the video, I don't think you're using that to your advantage much. At about :40, for an example. I called the ledgehop phantasm about 5 seconds before he did it, and I suck. You can sh over him and bair, shad and dash attack the other direction, or even shield and dsmash his landing. There are tons of options if you read his phantasm.

0:46 - really easy SDI! When falco multijabs you can SDI behind him and dsmash, don't forget that.

1:23 - When falco is in this position with no second jump, it really should be a stock. You could have totally taken the ledge here!

1:55 - Choice was waiting for that get-up attack.

2:00 - Yeah so dsmash has this unfortunate problem where if you spam it, spammed spot dodges will usually continuously avoid it because the frame data is similar. A trick I use now is if they spot dodge the first one, charge the second one for just a few seconds. It really limits their options because spot dodging will cause them to get hit and if they shield you are safe.

2:10 - Nice SDI

2:30-2:40 - Bad spacing all over the place! I can tell you're rusty.

2:50 - OK, so when you see Falco start to up+b in this position and you don't have enough time to punish it with side-b, remember that he has a good deal of lag when he lands after using it (RCO mechanics). There was no reason to nB here, you'd already stunned him once. He's scared to grab the ledge because he's thinking ahead and believes you will try to edgehog him. Because of the limited angles on up+b there was no where for him to really go except where he went; you could have popped up to this platform and had down smash ready but that's asking a lot. Still, up air would have done the job just fine ;)

3:05 - Down-b kick gets punished, but if you kick, kick towards him because at least then if he's dumb and doesn't shield, he gets hit. :p What you should do is down-b away and buffer a jump and mix up with dair or something, I dunno.

3:10 - If you see falco multijabbing at the edge just start mashing the cstick back and forth between 10 and 7 o clock and dsmash him on the other side.

3:20 - Nice.

3:40 - up smash out of shield would have been awesome here, or at least utilt. In general, you have to work on knowing your OOS options for specific moves and situations. ZSS kinda sucks at hitting stuff with low lag OOS (her options are all pretty situational) but when her options work, they really work.

3:50 - definitely uair OOS.

4:10 - Yeah, you need to mix up your ledge game a little. Choice (and I!) know what you're going to use every time before you do. Fair and ledge attack both have similar counters. Shielding is crazy safe against both. I know you're poking at him, but ledge attack has so much lag afterwards that if he's shielding in preparation for your fair, he can just punish you OOS on reaction.

4:20 - good DI!

4:30 - while it didn't favor you here, I like how you use retreating fair.

In general I don't think you are very comfortable with this match-up. Falco is all about situation-specific stuff because ZSS doesn't have much else. You have to learn to capitalize on the little things (that dash attack on shield, stuff like that).

0:01 - OK, nice. He didn't know what hit him.

0:37 - Ehh. Side-b or second hit forward air might have killed him, because neither were stale.

0:46 - Don't be intimidated. Take the ledge, down-b away, stall and dair him, do something. Surprise him. You let him get into your head and he ****ed you up for it.

0:58 - No. bad. :p

1:55 - Yeah, so rolling is pretty bad as an escape mechanism vs Fox. Only do it as a mix-up.

2:12 - I gotta hand it to you, you really know how to set up gay.

3:45 - Yeah you really have to work on your ledge game. It works on him, but it's really really linear.

I'll do the peach video later if you want.
 

shlike

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
896
Location
Brownsville, Tx (RGV)
some tourney sets from this past weekend

shlike vs sync (the metaknight prodigy from texas) http://www.justin.tv/charropunks/b/289999111 I lose 1-2

shlike vs derk (g&w) http://www.justin.tv/charropunks/b/289999430 I win 2-0

shlike vs pj (tl) http://www.justin.tv/charropunks/b/290058925 I win 2-0

shlike vs sync (in losers bracket this time) http://www.justin.tv/charropunks/b/290059893 I win 3-1 (was a continuation set so it was bo5)


These were recorded from a live stream and the stream died twice during my lb set with sync. The last match on battlefield went to last hit (again) and it was pretty damn hype.

My matches with trela weren't recorded because the stream died again. I lost that 1-3.

Critique/watch please :)
 

Dakpo

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
1,912
Location
Denton, Texas
I saw your set vs Sync before you posted this.
LOL you 3 stocked PJ!!! too good :) The only thing i saw vs him was that you did not hide in your shield enough. If your in a sticky situation against Tl then just hold your shield. Side Stepping creates an opening that is easy to punish. I mean seriously, what is toon link going to do? grab you ? hahaha
Ok so vs MK....
Where is your armor game? You can give MK such h3ll with armor pieces if you actually use them!
to my understanding your favorite stage is SV right? You should strike lylat and BF from the start. BF takes away your armor game and lylat does that AND sucks. Trying a little more defense by bouncing the armor instead of going for one shot luck glide tosses forward. Also, use the armor as bait so you can punish them while they scrambling for a piece of the armor.
Also, as soon as MK tornadoes you and then retreats after you shield it, you have to be ready to chase them down and punish. Try not to hesitate then chase them. Charge Dsmash until he leaves the ground and get under him and punish with up air. we literally beat MK from below. Its sooo awesome :). Be more conservative with your side B too. Good matches shlike.
 

Deathfox30

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Messages
483
NickRiddle already said this but I noticed in game 1 vs Pj you tried to platform cancel with Dair and messed up again. You should try bair or just tapping down as you're going through the platform. It's better and the timing seems less strict.
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,002
Location
Frisco you know
Dayum dude, awesome set. My critique, and the reasons you lost IMO, is you started relying on jabs too heavily in game 3, got called on your rolls (and you rolled a lot more), and weren't as good with your uairs OOS.

Good things (besides normal things like good spacing):
-nair out of dsmash at high percents worked really well for you, very nice application
-you weren't overshooting your juggles
-smart recoveries (really hard sometimes against Marth
-very good movement/footsies on the ground
-great use of nB all around
 

BioDG

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
609
Awesome set, Dakpo. Some incredibly intelligent gameplay from game 1. It's too bad about those shield breaks, though. :[

---

Okay, so while I've been playing a little better I can tell my playstyle has been sloppy and I'd like to correct that, but I was hoping I could get a bit of direction. Here's a few videos:

vs MK - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG5NUtuslOU&feature=channel_video_title
vs Peach - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbim_NhYoCY&feature=channel_video_title
vs TL - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEdj3a9zbb8
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
I meant to point something out to you, when you grab released MK onto that platform and then knocked him off, you could have gotten a free hit on his missed tech landing. If you go for that again, remember to follow up with a blaster shot to jab lock, or a dsmash.

also you didn't post our set?
I GUESS U DON'T NEED TO KNOW HOW TO IMPROVE VS SONIC ANYMORE!!!?
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
9,913
Location
Florida
Awesome set, Dakpo. Some incredibly intelligent gameplay from game 1. It's too bad about those shield breaks, though. :[

---

Okay, so while I've been playing a little better I can tell my playstyle has been sloppy and I'd like to correct that, but I was hoping I could get a bit of direction. Here's a few videos:

vs MK - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG5NUtuslOU&feature=channel_video_title
vs Peach - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbim_NhYoCY&feature=channel_video_title
vs TL - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEdj3a9zbb8
Instead of going for specific things, I'm just going to post a time, and what I'm thinking at the time.
Tell me if you would prefer the old method.

MK:

Right away, you use too much paralyzer predictably, and in a row. Nado always beats it.

2:06
You play... VERY attempted keep-away. That style doesn't seem to work well vs MK in my experience, but it seemed to work so far.

3:08
Do you not like ledge-hopping? You seem to prefer every other option at lot more. Any specific reason?

3:41
You have air-dodged after getting out of Nado every time thus far. Jumping/down-bing away are better as get-aways.
Or, you could try to hit nado with your legs, and win. That happens.

4:46
That MK needs to nado higher if it's scared of d-smash.

6:35
You also do this a lot. Double-jump > quick down-b. That's just asking to get read, one time, and have you killed for it. Stop it.

8:19
Dem grabs, dem grabs, dem... whiffed grabs.
Stop it.

9:17
Every down-b, is a kick.
EVERY DOWN-B!
Okay, I lied. You did like 2-3 that weren't kicks.

10:05
He wants to get grabbed out of his grab-height nados. I can sense it.

You've gotten a lot better. I remember watching some of your older vids. Man you were terrible.



I was going to watch the other two sets, but I don't have that much exp. vs. either of those characters.
 
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