ZSS General Discussion

[PEACE7]

Salem is kind of awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyUdoohXrMg

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wow.

But he can't break ZSS' 5th place curse apparently. I think only Nick has ever done that. LOL

 

[ぱみゅ]

Why did Bizkit take out grenades when he was right to a Suit Piece, though?

Edit: nvm, he threw it out, I guess I wasn't paying enough attention...

 

[Dakpo]

K so Im like 1-8 against good olimars in tournament. I have seen Salem, Nick riddle, DRN, Quick and myself all get beaten by good olimars...in fact I have never seen legit tournament set of us beating olimar. Olimar for one of our worst match ups?
Screw oli, Im just going luigi *ragerageragerage*


Same goes for diddy*

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

can someone critique this? im a falco player but this is a set vs salem and i dont know the matchup too well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p5VHBx8UYI

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Same goes for diddy*

Heh heh heh....

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Here's an interesting grab-release shenanigans on Squirtle:

GR->Walk forward and dtilt immediately. It's a very small window but it works, can't be power shielded. It's hard because I don't think you can buffer a walk after grab release.

And on Wario:

GR->Baby paralyer->Regrab when bike is on the stage. Only works reliably once, but sometimes if you buffer a pummel (which lets him escape) it works a few more times, weird. DI away doesn't work like it does with dsmash afaik (shot still hits).

GR->Smallstep grab when bike is onstage. This one I'm unable to confirm... looks like it works, DI shouldn't matter.

GR->Up-b Spike Sweetspot. YEAH!

Jiggs:

GR->Walk forward a bit and up-b. Yes this works, although it doesn't do much.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yes, you can buffer walks.
Xzax, we have a critique thread.

 

[NickRiddle]

K so Im like 1-8 against good olimars in tournament. I have seen Salem, Nick riddle, DRN, Quick and myself all get beaten by good olimars...in fact I have never seen legit tournament set of us beating olimar. Olimar for one of our worst match ups?
Screw oli, Im just going luigi *ragerageragerage*


Same goes for diddy*

I don't know the MU, FL has no Olimar.

 

[Zinoto]

can someone critique this? im a falco player but this is a set vs salem and i dont know the matchup too well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p5VHBx8UYI

Whenever you get close to ZSS, jab her and force the roll to punish. Also you have to be more aggressive with your edgeguarding. Salem does some tricky things, but in the end it's still ZSS meaning you can gimp her. Lastly, don't recover so predictably. The more you mix it up the less damage you'll take recovering.

 

[infiniteV115]

I disagree heavily. Falco sucks at edgeguarding and ZSS' recovery is very safe unless there's some PatG DI involved. Don't risk it.

Last stock on FD, you got dtilted at low % and then airdodged into Salem.
NEVER
EVER
****ING
AIRDODGE
INTO
ZSS
WITH
FALCO

You took 71% because of that. You could have taken even more if Salem chose a different follow up.
Salem did dsmash x4 --> both hits of fair.., you can SDI fair to avoid the 2nd hit (down/away/both)...first hit does 6%, 2nd hit does 11% for a total of 17%.
Even against characters she can't dsmash lock, dsmash x2 --> both hits fair = 39%. SDI THE FAIR.

On top of that, he could have done dsmash x3/4 --> dash attack lock --> utilt, and assuming you failed to SDI that as well he could have easily brought you up to 80+%.

To SDI the dash attack lock, SDI away from ZSS so that she can't utilt and has to dtilt you instead (utilt does 12%, dtilt does 6% and nothing is guaranteed out of dtilt)...I also hear SDI down + shield works as well but I'm not sure


Might write more later

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

ohh infinite you are too kind, but please stop it right here, falco is already too strong against us haha

 

[Salem]

ohh infinite you are too kind, but please stop it right here, falco is already too strong against us haha

nah, falco is weak, he needs dat buff.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Salem wit dat 2008 post count

 

[Dakpo]

heh heh heh....

lmao Stop following my shame trails!

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

lmao Stop following my shame trails!

The day I infinite you is the day you'll have shame. And that day will never come. So hush.

 

[Zinoto]

I don't mean do stuff like jump offstage and desperately attempt to gimp or something, but whenever Salem was offstage, he either ran away from the ledge or did nothing. Don't let her come back for free. By aggressive I mean pressure her on the ledge. Her recovery isn't good enough where Salem should come back without taking any damage.

Also what is the - MU? Last tourney I played a with her and it was a lot more fun than doing the ditto. I wanna use her for all (like P1 or AZ), but don't wanna have to go mega try hard just to bring it to like last hit. What's the ratio with and without the infinite?

 

[DRN]

I don't mean do stuff like jump offstage and desperately attempt to gimp or something, but whenever Salem was offstage, he either ran away from the ledge or did nothing. Don't let her come back for free. By aggressive I mean pressure her on the ledge. Her recovery isn't good enough where Salem should come back without taking any damage.

Also what is the - MU? Last tourney I played a with her and it was a lot more fun than doing the ditto. I wanna use her for all (like P1 or AZ), but don't wanna have to go mega try hard just to bring it to like last hit. What's the ratio with and without the infinite?

50-50 in my opinion. I don't use the infinite.

 

[Dakpo]

40-60 imo I feel like its an up hill battle

 

[PEACE7]

50-50 IMO if you know the mu

 

[CYVE]

This MU is +1 for Diddy, but it's close to (if not) even if you know the nana lock..

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

Well and if diddy can do the lock too its +1 for him again lool
it cant be even guys, i never saw a american zss beat adhd or gnes
I have in europe problems with diddy too, and yea its a fact that its 1+

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

MU has to be +1 diddy.
Zss racks damage hardcore, but it is an uphill battle. Diddy can use one banana and still have the safe options to get good punishes or force situations. Zss isn't without options either, but I don't feel it's even. If you can consistently read diddy and get the infinite every time, then I'd say even or +1 zss. But it's a struggle for zss IMO

 

[NickRiddle]

It's... probably even, but I'm not comfortable enough with it to play it like it's even.

 

[infiniteV115]

Realistically I don't see Diddy ever landing the infinite, I don't know how he's supposed to land it...ZSS can set up the infinite much more easily...

Then again I have next to no Diddy experience...if Diddy has some safe ways to attempt to set up the infinite then it's in his favour, if not then it's even.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

To get the setup for Zss is not much more easily, if the Diddy is prepared. Especially selecting a stage with platforms is destroying her the most possibilities to land a nana lock.
diddy instead can do it on much more situations. In fact at the moment you don't find consistently Diddy's who can do that stuff outside from Japan. Even in Japan Suinoko has trouble to consistently do it, but in some friendlies he got me with Nana Lock from NOWHERE it was crazy. But in tournament he didn't get the nana lock (like me), it's really hard.
Nagahari should be the only Diddy ever who uses this stuff consistently in tournament.

forget the nana lock for both sides making it relevant for the mu. There are first other things you should learn which are much more important.
It may be good, but it should be only seen as a bonus for zss, because its too hard to find a chance against (good) diddys and because of the stage. Neath simply banned FD against me (Diddy that bans FD lmao), and then there is only SV left and the moving platform is really annoying.

 

[DeLux]

Is FD good for ZSS against Diddy? Getting in through the Diddy camp/bait traps is a nightmare and I always feel like I'm playing a chess match.

I've been having trouble with the MU, but usually anything on FD just involves me getting bodied harder than usual. Although to be fair, when I played ICs I was also secretly bad on FD just everybody banned it so I never had to play on it. Could be a personal problem for me lol

 

[Dakpo]

I take every diddy I can to FD. I don't mind the lack of platforms. Imo, I heard this from big lou, Diddy is like a super version of luigi's air game. So platforms are really not that much of a hindrance for diddy. I believe Gnes said that BF is even his best stage. (start the name search beckons)

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

Feel like Zss is in disadvantage on fd, if she doesnt get the lock. So it's always risky to bring diddy on fd.

dakpo did you try the upb oos thing?

 

[NickRiddle]

UpB is good for dairs. Sadly, that's it.

 

[infiniteV115]

Bizkit disagrees.

 

[PEACE7]

Diddy can get the infinite out of lots of stuff, mostly the moves which were mispaced.

 

[NickRiddle]

Bizkit disagrees.

Assuming not derp gameplay.

 

[infiniteV115]

Diddy can get the infinite out of lots of stuff, mostly the moves which were mispaced.

No he can't.
I mean yeah if you do stupid **** like full jab combo/first hit only of sideB on his shield while he's holding a banana, then yeah you're gonna get infinited.

But...just don't do stupid **** and then he'll have to land a hard read to land the infinite.

 

[PEACE7]

Yea and oh here is a list of some of the stuff he can infinite us out of according to the diddy boards.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=324465

 

[DRN]

To get the setup for Zss is not much more easily, if the Diddy is prepared. Especially selecting a stage with platforms is destroying her the most possibilities to land a nana lock.
diddy instead can do it on much more situations. In fact at the moment you don't find consistently Diddy's who can do that stuff outside from Japan. Even in Japan Suinoko has trouble to consistently do it, but in some friendlies he got me with Nana Lock from NOWHERE it was crazy. But in tournament he didn't get the nana lock (like me), it's really hard.
Nagahari should be the only Diddy ever who uses this stuff consistently in tournament.

forget the nana lock for both sides making it relevant for the mu. There are first other things you should learn which are much more important.
It may be good, but it should be only seen as a bonus for zss, because its too hard to find a chance against (good) diddys and because of the stage. Neath simply banned FD against me (Diddy that bans FD lmao), and then there is only SV left and the moving platform is really annoying.

Player-1 can infinite pretty consistently. He hasnt infinited me in tournament yet but he infinited bio twice in their MM. He does however infinite me sometimes in friendlies if i make a small mistake like dash attack his shield.

 

[DeLux]

Welp, never dash attacking a diddy's shield if they have Banana in hand ever again >_>

 

[infiniteV115]

Don't hit Diddy's shield with a move that's not safe on shield when he's holding a banana...I thought this was figured this out back in like 2009 or something

Just because Diddy is shielding, doesn't mean you have to use an attack, or even shield. This is what I did against Zinoto...just wait for him to choose an OoS option. Let his shield get low. And zone yourself so that he can't glide toss downwards and hit you with the banana without you being able to react to it.

Stay at spaced sideB/nB range and you should be able to react to everything.

 

[Zinoto]

No he can't.
I mean yeah if you do stupid **** like full jab combo/first hit only of sideB on his shield while he's holding a banana, then yeah you're gonna get infinited.

But...just don't do stupid **** and then he'll have to land a hard read to land the infinite.

Oh yes he can lol. No hard reads are necessary. At Impulse I only knew the side b --> footstool variation, but if diddy has 2 bananas near him and you get hit by 1 (as long as you're within the distance he can toss a banana) he can run up and footstool you --> infinite. On this threat is multiplied by like 10 because there is no platforms and nothing but space for you to mess up. All we literally have to do is literally get 1 trip with a second banana close to us (doesn't even have to be ours lmao) and it's the stock. You have to approach us and we can punish anything you do on our shield, so if we theoretically hide behind a banana there is nothing safe you can do.

Don't hit Diddy's shield with a move that's not safe on shield when he's holding a banana...I thought this was figured this out back in like 2009 or something

Just because Diddy is shielding, doesn't mean you have to use an attack, or even shield. This is what I did against Zinoto...just wait for him to choose an OoS option. Let his shield get low. And zone yourself so that he can't glide toss downwards and hit you with the banana without you being able to react to it.

Stay at spaced sideB/nB range and you should be able to react to everything.

Also, I don't know about that V115. You're assuming is going to shield if you get next to him. You're saying stay at side b range and punish his OoS option, but why are we shielding in the first place? We can react to side b and neutral b, it's not that fast. If you do commit to an attack we can shield it and then you take stupid amounts of damage.



Aside from the infinite, what I really was interested in what makes the MU disadvantageous for . I mean there's like 3 players that do the infinite and even less that do it. Like what threat can pose if sits behind a banana and stands in neutral/shoots peanuts. I know we can do something, but this is how I took damage when I played her last weekend. Like whenever I let him get set up there was nothing I could do to hit him unless I took the banana and away.

 

[DeLux]

Don't hit Diddy's shield with a move that's not safe on shield when he's holding a banana...I thought this was figured this out back in like 2009 or something

Yes but before you only took a lot of damage in my mind
Now you die if you do it

Be afraidddd