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ZSS General Discussion
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Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Yeah, I just saw that and got rid of that part of the post because I'm derp.
By the way, charge time is actually 5 frames but if the animation comes out the last frame is truncated. In most cases, it is truncated. The same is true of other smashes I think (16 frame dsmash charge is actually 15 frames, etc).
The more the charge animation uses by percentage the total frames of the smash, the better it is while charging, I guess.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Snake 0
Oli -1
Fox 0?
Kirby might be +1
I've only played Luckay's Pit but that feels like AT LEAST +1
Why would we lose to Squirtle? And why are you counting the PT MUs separately? XD
PT is at least +1 I would assume
That's all I have to say
Oh...Will thinks ZSS:DK is 60:40..I'm gonna play him again today and maybe tomorrow (today = smashfest, tomorrow = tournament) so I'll update on that lol
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Squirtle is awful, I separated them because it's important to know which ones are good or bad.
ぱみゅ
❤ ~
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2008
- Messages
- 10,010
- Location
- Under your skirt
- NNID
- kyo.pamyu.pamyu
- 3DS FC
- 4785-5700-5699
- Switch FC
- SW 3264 5694 6605
I don't feel Charizard as +2, he's quite hard to kill.
I could agree though, if we consider we have some extreme mobility to limit his already limited killing tools...
That said, I would like to hear your reasonings for +1 on Gdubs, I feel it more like 0 because both can rack damage well but have hard times killing each other...
I could agree though, if we consider we have some extreme mobility to limit his already limited killing tools...
That said, I would like to hear your reasonings for +1 on Gdubs, I feel it more like 0 because both can rack damage well but have hard times killing each other...
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I actually think... well, we have trouble killing each other, but it's for different reasons.
First, I prefer stages with platforms to help put GaW in bad positions at high percents. Like, our kill moves in this match are going to be... uair (rarely, if you can get a good trade), and dsmash followups at high percents. Side-b will probably be stale, and bair will probably be stale. So our best kill tools are stale, and on top of that gaw can kind of live forever because of bucket braking. Having platforms gives you more opportunities to hit him with fair which is good because it keeps your other moves from getting stale and allows you to kill with it sometimes.
He has a tough time killing US because he has to get a hard read to do it. Learning to tech dthrow and stay unpredictable with your tech options is 100% necessary. Learning to SDI his multihit moves and shield bair is also a good idea, otherwise he's going to get one hit on you and string you to like 70%. I would say GaW gets really solid rewards for his reads on ZSS at kill percent or otherwise.
So he kills earlier but has a harder time landing his kill moves, you kill later but can't really kill until DI just isn't enough to save him.
I think the match-up is slightly in ZSS' favor because she has safer ways to deal damage neutrally. Side-b is really tough for GaW to deal with because he doesn't really have a way to punish it even if he knows it's coming (with good spacing). Paralyzer is good too, so long as you don't use it too much. You don't want him getting a full bucket, but if you reverse paralyzer occasionally to catch him off guard, you can start some pretty nasty strings.
Once GaW is inside your wall, he has better tools than ZSS. His grab is obviously a really strong option, his ftilt and dtilt are pretty fast and put you in bad places, and his smashes are ******** at punishing a spotdodge. GaW will also often try to bair your shield instead of using a ground option, which will poke at it... try to tilt your shield in the direction bair is falling (out, up, down) to avoid getting poked and then dtilt him or jab if he misspaces.
Jab is of course really excellent in this matchup but because it's so good, he'll be expecting it. If your jab is shielded, its really bad news. So while it's an awesome tool you really don't want to condition him into expecting it.
GaW also has pretty nasty offstage pressure on ZSS. Don't abuse side-b, or he'll just run offstage and fair you which gets annoying. He can also run offstage and dair if you choose to wait and up-b the stage. You'll make it back if you're careful but you're going to take some damage.
To me the advantage is due to GaW not really having the best tools for ZSS' midrange pressure (like, at side-b/paralyzer range he really has nothing) both on the offensive and defensive, and ZSS having the jab wildcard to get him out. He also doesn't really have a great answer to ZSS just running away if she does it soon enough. It's a very small advantage, though.
First, I prefer stages with platforms to help put GaW in bad positions at high percents. Like, our kill moves in this match are going to be... uair (rarely, if you can get a good trade), and dsmash followups at high percents. Side-b will probably be stale, and bair will probably be stale. So our best kill tools are stale, and on top of that gaw can kind of live forever because of bucket braking. Having platforms gives you more opportunities to hit him with fair which is good because it keeps your other moves from getting stale and allows you to kill with it sometimes.
He has a tough time killing US because he has to get a hard read to do it. Learning to tech dthrow and stay unpredictable with your tech options is 100% necessary. Learning to SDI his multihit moves and shield bair is also a good idea, otherwise he's going to get one hit on you and string you to like 70%. I would say GaW gets really solid rewards for his reads on ZSS at kill percent or otherwise.
So he kills earlier but has a harder time landing his kill moves, you kill later but can't really kill until DI just isn't enough to save him.
I think the match-up is slightly in ZSS' favor because she has safer ways to deal damage neutrally. Side-b is really tough for GaW to deal with because he doesn't really have a way to punish it even if he knows it's coming (with good spacing). Paralyzer is good too, so long as you don't use it too much. You don't want him getting a full bucket, but if you reverse paralyzer occasionally to catch him off guard, you can start some pretty nasty strings.
Once GaW is inside your wall, he has better tools than ZSS. His grab is obviously a really strong option, his ftilt and dtilt are pretty fast and put you in bad places, and his smashes are ******** at punishing a spotdodge. GaW will also often try to bair your shield instead of using a ground option, which will poke at it... try to tilt your shield in the direction bair is falling (out, up, down) to avoid getting poked and then dtilt him or jab if he misspaces.
Jab is of course really excellent in this matchup but because it's so good, he'll be expecting it. If your jab is shielded, its really bad news. So while it's an awesome tool you really don't want to condition him into expecting it.
GaW also has pretty nasty offstage pressure on ZSS. Don't abuse side-b, or he'll just run offstage and fair you which gets annoying. He can also run offstage and dair if you choose to wait and up-b the stage. You'll make it back if you're careful but you're going to take some damage.
To me the advantage is due to GaW not really having the best tools for ZSS' midrange pressure (like, at side-b/paralyzer range he really has nothing) both on the offensive and defensive, and ZSS having the jab wildcard to get him out. He also doesn't really have a great answer to ZSS just running away if she does it soon enough. It's a very small advantage, though.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,304
Tournament tonight for me guys
I think we'll try to stream. If we get our doubles tournament with enough signups, you'll probably see more of my FreeSS
Depending how certain characters go, I'm attempting my new style of play of maining Counter Pick characters, but if I get double blinded I'll flip a coin between ICs/ZSS lol
I think we'll try to stream. If we get our doubles tournament with enough signups, you'll probably see more of my FreeSS
Depending how certain characters go, I'm attempting my new style of play of maining Counter Pick characters, but if I get double blinded I'll flip a coin between ICs/ZSS lol
Dakpo
Smash Lord
I really feel like Up B out of shield hits lower than that. Also Up smash OoS comes out frame 7 right? and how fast does shield drop Up tilt come out?First hitbox of up-b, on frame 5:
Maybe this is useful for Tornado on the top of shield? Or something lol.
First hitbox of usmash:
And then, the second group of hitboxes, out 2 frames later:
In other news, dair landing hitbox comes out on frame 1 and has transcendent priority, nerf.
Also Good luck with everyones tournament this weekend
Dk is bad
MK -1
ICs +1
Diddy -1
Snake -1
Falco -1
Marth 0
Wario 0
Olimar -2 or -1
Pikachu 0
Lucario +1
Dedede +1
GaW +1
TL +1
Fox -1
Wolf 0
Peach +1
DK +2
Kirby +2
ROB +2
Pit 0
Sonic 0
Ike +2
Sheik +1
Luigi +2
Ness +1
Yoshi +1
Squirtle -1
Charizard +3
Ivysaur +3
Lucas +1
Mario +1
Bowser +3
Samus +3
Falcon +1
Link +1
Jiggs +2
Zelda +2
Ganon +3
MK -1
ICs +1
Diddy -1
Snake -1
Falco -1
Marth 0
Wario 0
Olimar -2 or -1
Pikachu 0
Lucario +1
Dedede +1
GaW +1
TL +1
Fox -1
Wolf 0
Peach +1
DK +2
Kirby +2
ROB +2
Pit 0
Sonic 0
Ike +2
Sheik +1
Luigi +2
Ness +1
Yoshi +1
Squirtle -1
Charizard +3
Ivysaur +3
Lucas +1
Mario +1
Bowser +3
Samus +3
Falcon +1
Link +1
Jiggs +2
Zelda +2
Ganon +3
MK -1
ICs +1
Diddy -1
Snake -1
Falco -1
Marth 0
Wario 0
Olimar -2 or -1
Pikachu 0
Lucario +1
Dedede +1
GaW +1
TL +1
Fox -1
Wolf 0
Peach +1
DK +2
Kirby +2
ROB +2
Pit 0
Sonic 0
Ike +2
Sheik +1
Luigi +2
Ness +1
Yoshi +1
Squirtle -1
Charizard +3
Ivysaur +3
Lucas +1
Mario +1
Bowser +3
Samus +3
Falcon +1
Link +1
Jiggs +2
Zelda +2
Ganon +3
MK -1
ICs +1
Diddy -1
Snake -1
Falco -1
Marth 0
Wario 0
Olimar -2 or -1
Pikachu 0
Lucario +1
Dedede +1
GaW +1
TL +1
Fox -1
Wolf 0
Peach +1
DK +2
Kirby +2
ROB +2
Pit 0
Sonic 0
Ike +2
Sheik +1
Luigi +2
Ness +1
Yoshi +1
Squirtle -1
Charizard +3
Ivysaur +3
Lucas +1
Mario +1
Bowser +3
Samus +3
Falcon +1
Link +1
Jiggs +2
Zelda +2
Ganon +3
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
It actually might, there's an OC bubble in the move. On other abilities in Laki's hitbubble video don't have the both OC bubbles and AOC bubbles.
I wish I knew how to get the bubbles on my own, I'd just make a compendium thread and be done with it.
As for OOS options:
Jab OOS: 8 frames
Usmash OOS initial hit: 9 frames
Uair OOS: 9 frames
Utilt OOS: 10 frames
Usmash OOS second hit (this one is more practical IMO): 11 frames
Dtilt OOS: 12 frames
Reverse dtilt OOS: 14 frames (ew)
Fastest safe option is Usmash, fastest option period is jab.
I wish I knew how to get the bubbles on my own, I'd just make a compendium thread and be done with it.
As for OOS options:
Jab OOS: 8 frames
Usmash OOS initial hit: 9 frames
Uair OOS: 9 frames
Utilt OOS: 10 frames
Usmash OOS second hit (this one is more practical IMO): 11 frames
Dtilt OOS: 12 frames
Reverse dtilt OOS: 14 frames (ew)
Fastest safe option is Usmash, fastest option period is jab.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Fastest option OoS is downB, 5 frame jumpsquat + downB comes out on frame 1 = 6 frames to come out (it's like a regular shield grab, but you don't grab them!)
And Nick told me that buffered turnarounds take 0 frames, so shouldn't dtilt and reverse dtilt each take 12 frames if you buffer the turnaround?
And Nick told me that buffered turnarounds take 0 frames, so shouldn't dtilt and reverse dtilt each take 12 frames if you buffer the turnaround?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I thought a buffered turnaround added 2 frames! It seems we are at an impasse. :D And lol at down-b.
Hey, I can make it even better: you can JC down-b, so it comes out in ONE FRAME! ZOMG.
And the kick can come out on 19, so you can punish snake fsmash with down b OOS! WOW!
Hey, I can make it even better: you can JC down-b, so it comes out in ONE FRAME! ZOMG.
And the kick can come out on 19, so you can punish snake fsmash with down b OOS! WOW!
ZSS's grab is too risky D: It's either a hit or miss, and if you miss... it's not gonna be pretty.
Anyone know of some good ways to mix it up? I've been doing either a B or dmsmash+grab but the opponet usually shields the stun, and dodges the grab, then does a somewhat charged smash on me -.-
And to contribute to the matchup discussion:
I feel that ZSS has a huge disadvantage against Olimar. She doesn't really have any approach options outside of hoping to land a stun, then running up and doing whatever, but Olimar basicly owns the ground. Now, if you can get him in the air you have some hope, but that's not always easy. Running up+usmash works, but if Olimar shields expect a grab or smash attack. I have found edgegaurding him to be extremely easy with her tether recovery though, but keep in mind he can do the same to you :L lol
I also think ZSS and Snake are about an even match. She has so good ways of avoiding the mines, and she can cause snake to damage himself by stunning him when he's holding a bomb, or grabbing him and tossing him into a mine with her fthrow. She can also easily disable him in the air, but if you miss you could easily be killed by one of his cheap aerials >.>
Anyone know of some good ways to mix it up? I've been doing either a B or dmsmash+grab but the opponet usually shields the stun, and dodges the grab, then does a somewhat charged smash on me -.-
And to contribute to the matchup discussion:
I feel that ZSS has a huge disadvantage against Olimar. She doesn't really have any approach options outside of hoping to land a stun, then running up and doing whatever, but Olimar basicly owns the ground. Now, if you can get him in the air you have some hope, but that's not always easy. Running up+usmash works, but if Olimar shields expect a grab or smash attack. I have found edgegaurding him to be extremely easy with her tether recovery though, but keep in mind he can do the same to you :L lol
I also think ZSS and Snake are about an even match. She has so good ways of avoiding the mines, and she can cause snake to damage himself by stunning him when he's holding a bomb, or grabbing him and tossing him into a mine with her fthrow. She can also easily disable him in the air, but if you miss you could easily be killed by one of his cheap aerials >.>
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Friendlies with Will were...weird.
We went more or less even.
I beat him fairly easily on BF and PS1
We're roughly even on YI:B (O.o)
He gives me quite a bit of trouble on FD (O.o)
Many lulz were had
Oh...and so far ZSS:DK seems like a ridiculously good team
We went more or less even.
I beat him fairly easily on BF and PS1
We're roughly even on YI:B (O.o)
He gives me quite a bit of trouble on FD (O.o)
Many lulz were had
Oh...and so far ZSS:DK seems like a ridiculously good team
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Dunno who saw yesterday's stream for SiD8, but... I got 1st in every event I entered XD (singles, doubles and the side event was random 1v1 stamina damage ratio = 1.5)
Also 3-1'd Will in a MM :D
Edit: MM with Will at 1:46:04
http://www.twitch.tv/eschamptv/b/332331368
(Dubs wasn't on stream)
Also 3-1'd Will in a MM :D
Edit: MM with Will at 1:46:04
http://www.twitch.tv/eschamptv/b/332331368
(Dubs wasn't on stream)
quiKsilverItaly
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2009
- Messages
- 268
good job!!!!
where are the results?
where are the results?
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Not up yet, they'll probably be up by tonight.
quiKsilverItaly
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2009
- Messages
- 268
ahahaha
V115 > Salem ;D that first match, poor Will
edit: watched entire mm, also wf against this olimar
your Zss is hype, i'm gonna pick your tag on the next big tournament and ****** with it
V115 > Salem ;D that first match, poor Will
edit: watched entire mm, also wf against this olimar
your Zss is hype, i'm gonna pick your tag on the next big tournament and ****** with it
Dakpo
Smash Lord
wow just incredible game play. Thats how your supposed to play the dk match up and congrats for winning a tournament!!!! you should def be top 3 zss. I also glad to see someone beat an olimar 
V115 also, I kinda wanna do a critique on your set vs tin man. I have been playing olimar constantly for the past 2 weeks... I mean like really good olimars and multiples of them.
Quik - I completely forgot about up B out of shield last weekend... but it has a good use in the olimar match up lolol Any time they try and nair into us *wham*
V115 also, I kinda wanna do a critique on your set vs tin man. I have been playing olimar constantly for the past 2 weeks... I mean like really good olimars and multiples of them.
Quik - I completely forgot about up B out of shield last weekend... but it has a good use in the olimar match up lolol Any time they try and nair into us *wham*
PEACE7
Smash Champion
Damn bro that was ****ing beautiful to watch, great stuff and that first match was so sexy, great ****ing job and congrats on winning bro
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
WTF MAN
You just reminded me, I was planning on using your tag on stream at this, but I forgot to
And thanks Dakpo & Peace
Oh yeah btw I guess I should mention that this was an Apex Qualifier, so 1024 seeding points for me :D
quiKsilverItaly
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2009
- Messages
- 268
oh i got some points, too. for example like 10 points srt xD that's not faiiiiiiiir
well that's no big deal. just use it on the next tournament. i hope i won't forget using V115 :D
well that's no big deal. just use it on the next tournament. i hope i won't forget using V115 :D
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
v115 can you give other times on this stream for your matches?
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Results thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14884399
About my other sets
http://www.twitch.tv/eschamptv/b/332331368
29:00 - WFs against Tin Man (Oli)
1:08:20 - GFs against Tin Man (Oli, 2 sets)
http://www.twitch.tv/eschamptv/b/332318739
23:00 - WQFs against jMo (MK)
53:55 - WSFs against Toronto Joe (MK)
Dubs wasn't streamed
If you enjoy lulz, side event (stamina 1.5 damage ratio random 1v1)
22:00 - GFs of side event (1st link)
9:30 - WFs of side event (1st link)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14884399
About my other sets
http://www.twitch.tv/eschamptv/b/332331368
29:00 - WFs against Tin Man (Oli)
1:08:20 - GFs against Tin Man (Oli, 2 sets)
http://www.twitch.tv/eschamptv/b/332318739
23:00 - WQFs against jMo (MK)
53:55 - WSFs against Toronto Joe (MK)
Dubs wasn't streamed
If you enjoy lulz, side event (stamina 1.5 damage ratio random 1v1)
22:00 - GFs of side event (1st link)
9:30 - WFs of side event (1st link)
Wow congrats!
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Wow, v1etc that was amazing stuff. Our matchup vs Olimar seems really messy... have to hope he messes up a bit. Must be very frustrating, way to hold it together.
And holy **** ZSS owns DK. NickRiddle you got some splainin to do.
And holy **** ZSS owns DK. NickRiddle you got some splainin to do.
Omg V you totally dominated Olimar on the first battlefield matches.
I've learned so much from that tournaments. I also didn't know you could use down-b to avoid dying. :D Definetely going to be using that.
Thanks for posting it.
I've learned so much from that tournaments. I also didn't know you could use down-b to avoid dying. :D Definetely going to be using that.
Thanks for posting it.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
I actually feel just the opposite. When I played my cards right with the suitpieces and got a big enough lead, and continued to pressure him with jab properly, I could tell he was getting pretty frustrated by it, and all in all I felt pretty relaxed.
Except for GF1, that was scary (mostly because he beat me on BF which had been my go-to-CP, since every game I won in WFs, I won on that stage XD). But after game 1 of GF2 (on FD) I was super relaxed.
Jab really does make a big difference in this MU. I suggest everyone practice their jab1 and jab2 cancels.
Hey V do you have any other good videos? I'm preparing for my first tournament Saturday. (It's online but still counts )
Also anyone have good matchup videos against Pikachu?
)Also anyone have good matchup videos against Pikachu?
I can't imagine you could ask for anything better than ESAM vs Nick Riddle for that matchup.
Although it would definitely help to watch some lower level play as well, so you can understand why the best players do what they do and what they are trying to avoid.
Try looking up Dazwa/Snakee vs PikaPika from ages ago. Kprime vs Paw.
Pikachu being pretty rare will limit you a bit.
Although it would definitely help to watch some lower level play as well, so you can understand why the best players do what they do and what they are trying to avoid.
Try looking up Dazwa/Snakee vs PikaPika from ages ago. Kprime vs Paw.
Pikachu being pretty rare will limit you a bit.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
...Lol yes. Nick Riddle is ESAM's brother and he knows the MU better than any other ZSS by far.
No, I don't really have many good videos.
No, I don't really have many good videos.
Thanks, I'll have to check those out.
Paw
Smash Ace
i dont think theres any videos up of me vs kprime, oddly enough....
![[FBC] Papa Mink](/data/avatars/l/166/166410.jpg?1363023093){kind=avatar}
[FBC] Papa Mink
Smash Legend
Why can't i sleep.
Time for more wine :-\
Time for more wine :-\
Coolwhip
Smash Champion
No wonder why esam ***** salem so hard on his last stock at that tourney.
(If you guys are talking about the zss/pika mu)
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Yeah pretty much, that's also why Salem went Marth game 1 (Marth is usually considered advantageous against Pikachu and Salem really didn't think he would beat ESAM with ZSS). Or, I assume that's why he went Marth game 1.
That and ESAM's a better player lol
That and ESAM's a better player lol
PEACE7
Smash Champion
Yea Esam has too much NickR practice.
Oh and V115 esam believes with all his heart that Marth vs Pika is even, he has beaten lots of marths too so Salem was pretty much ****ed Esam is soo good.
LOL @ Dazwas avi.
Oh and V115 esam believes with all his heart that Marth vs Pika is even, he has beaten lots of marths too so Salem was pretty much ****ed Esam is soo good.
LOL @ Dazwas avi.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Yeah I think it's even too, I'm just saying that's probably why Salem went Marth
PEACE7
Smash Champion
Yea I'm sure you're probably right.