ZSS General Discussion

[infiniteV115]

My point was that if Diddy is already shielding and holding a banana, then don't hit his shield, cause that's just begging to get infinited.

And don't throw out attacks that are insanely unsafe on block like dash attack, utilt, jab3, landing fair (dunno why this was mentioned in that thread lol) etc

 

[infiniteV115]

Double post because important

To anyone that hasn't figured it out yet, I did some testing and I found out which hitbox on our fsmash is the sweetspot.

The really weak one at the very tip of fsmash does 6%.
The one right before that (the 2nd furthest from ZSS) is the sweetspot. It does 11%.
The other two (maybe 3? idk) hitboxes deal 10% each.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Double post because important

To anyone that hasn't figured it out yet, I did some testing and I found out which hitbox on our fsmash is the sweetspot.

The really weak one at the very tip of fsmash does 6%.
The one right before that (the 2nd furthest from ZSS) is the sweetspot. It does 11%.
The other two (maybe 3? idk) hitboxes deal 10% each.

There's one that does 12% and kills very early but there's a bug that makes it unable to function properly (at least most of the time).

This is all handwaving, but I suspect it has something to do with the fact that the 12% hitbox is attached to the whip and very close to ZSS' body, which has its own hitboxes. They overlap but the hitbox near her is prioritized because it's on a bone and not on an article.

We know the hitbox exists because we have the hitbubble data for the move and it's definitely there, you just can't really use it.

I have seen it hit exactly one time when I dsmashed a DK below me who was jumpign through a platform. The fsmash I did afterwards did 12% and killed him at around 115%. We were both like o_O.

If you're curious, here is all of ZSS' frame and hitbox data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Akj5GwhI94pXdE5hSi02X1hyeGt5WFU3TjhFM3QzaFE#gid=0 You can see that one of the hitboxes out on frame 9 deals "C" damage (hex for 12).

It was originally compiled by rPSI.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't understand

The hitbox (3) that has its damage labelled as C has the same Angle, BKB, KBG and WBKB (I don't even know what this means) as 3 other hitboxes... why does THIS one kill early?

Killing DK at 115?
I approve

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Because the 1% damage increases KBG substantially.

A move with a 1% damage difference can kill a lot earlier.

Also we were on battlefield and I stunned him under the left platform, so he wasn't near the center. "Very" early is also relative, since fsmash can't kill until like 570% usually LOL

Regardless ZSS' fsmash is like one of the worst designed moves in a smash game. I do like using it to punish someone who rolls onto the ledge a bit too much. If you space well it covers 3 options (legehop, roll, stand) on the ledge. I used it against dark.pch a lot...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfC2dwmTuAc&feature=player_detailpage#t=162s

I used it on reaction here, although yes I know that dsmash would have been a better choice.

 

[Dakpo]

Can someone show me a picture with hitboxes where the sweet spot that does 12% is

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://imgur.com/DXiet

As requested.

I hope you can see this. I had to combine (badly) images from a Youtube video and sasook's old images from AiB.

I believe it's the one on the whip closest to ZSS' body. It's pretty hard ot actually hit with that, since the hitbox right above it (which is connected to ZSS' body) will hit first every time.

You might be able to land it on a squatting Kirby or someone below ZSS.

EDIT: OMG I FOUND IT. It does 13% in training mode. Have a kirby duck next to you, move back a little ways from him, and let go. I'll try to make a video if anyone cares. lol You should have seen me, I was so excited. My husband was like "Neeerd"

HAHA holy **** this hits hard, Kirby I'm coming for you.

 

[Dakpo]

lol i want to use it

 

[infiniteV115]

Only works on squatting Kirby?

 

[Dakpo]

We seriously need to talk about olimar... like nooo joke. We can talk about diddy later, we have plenty of write ups on him

 

[Zinoto]

We seriously need to talk about olimar... like nooo joke. We can talk about diddy later, we have plenty of write ups on him

Pick diddy. Easy.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'll do some testing and figure out who I can get it to work on lol

 

[Zinoto]

So I tried the - MU yesterday and I had like 0 fun playing that character. What in the world are you suppose to do in that MU? Are we even able to get next to him?

 

[Jon Farron]

I just read all those posts about the sweetspot on fsmash, and I must be getting lucky or something but I have gotten alot of kills with it, I thought it was normal. Lol I have actually found the heavier characters easier to hit with it. What I would do is downsmash and because of lag, right as they popped upwards from it, I would fsmash and they'd go flying and die around 110%-130% depending on how far away from the edge I was.

The hitbox in the screenshot someone posted will usually just barely tap their foot or something and make them go flying.

I'll have to try to purposely time this for more testing o: I guess lag CAN be useful. Lol

 

[ぱみゅ]

We could, if read a landing and opponent is at like 100%, go for the sweetspotted Fsmash instead of Dsmash... sounds risky if you don't get it, though...

 

[infiniteV115]

So I tried the - MU yesterday and I had like 0 fun playing that character. What in the world are you suppose to do in that MU? Are we even able to get next to him?

Yeah, it's our worst MU.
It gets a lot easier as you become more experienced in it, since you have to play the MU so differently from most of our other MUs.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Here's what I got in testing:

1. Not a single character at neutral position.
2. Only a few during trip animations (Fox, Falco, and Kirby can ftilt-sweetspot fsmash at 0%, no not diddy)
3. Sheik doesn't work, she's too low. The entire move whiffs her at that range.

Here's what does work:
0. You can fsmash after a dsmash when someone is hanging on the ledge and usually get them with the sweetspot.
1. Most characters on failed tech (especially shorties like olimar)
2. Kirby (crouching)
3. Peach (crouching) - this makes no sense
4. Mario (crouching, facing away only)
5. Squirtle (when crouching, shellshifting, neutral fatigue from behind sometimes)
6. Jigglypuff (crouching)
7. Mr Game and Watch (crouching)
8. Snake (crouching)

Worth noting that if you're holding down when fsmash hits you, you're dead LOL

 

[Jon Farron]

You can fsmash after a dsmash when someone is hanging on the ledge and usually get

That's what I did... Forgot to mention the ledge part, lol.

But it didn't always work, which is why I had to wait for them to pop up a bit after being stunned from the down smash. Lag helped to discover this for me because I meant to do another dsmash then side smash, but the dsmash didnt go through and only the side ssmash when the barely popped up.


The only downside to this is that it is kinda risky, if it misses you can easily be punished D:


And as for snake's crawl... I'll have to try that out, I always get hit by his dtilt. Maybe we can surprise him with this ;D

 

[infiniteV115]

So I was fooling around in training mode and discovered something neat...and somewhat practical. I guess you could say it's a mixup from the ledge.

You know how sometimes, when you try to upB shark from under the stage, if you're too close to the edge when you start the upB, our upB will go for the edge but NOT tether to it (the 'failed tether' if you will) so as a result we neither shark with our upB nor do we tether to the edge? (Happens a lot when trying to shark through BF)

Well, we can abuse this...kinda.

You know how when you go to BF/SV and you drop off the ledge, and jump into the bottom of the edge's slope, you will slide up the slope and grab the edge again? (Olis do this while uair planking)

Well, if you jump into the bottom of a slope with a boost jump (jump + upB) and you time it right (not hard to do at all), you slide all the way up and past the slope and land on the stage (and it puts you BARELY above the stage). Sounds lame I know, but try it out for yourself and you'll see just how close ZSS stays to the ground, so it's not as easy to punish this landing as it is punish, say, a ledge drop --> jump onto the stage.

When done on BF it also puts you in the perfect position to downB towards the centre and cancel the kick on the lower platform.

 

[Jon Farron]

:O I need to try that, too. I hate it when it doesn't grab the edge but it shows that it grabbed it. It's mean, lol.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Huh. Glad I pop by here every now and then!

This does seem good becuase thrown in with all your ledge mix ups.
Stop getting ledge mix ups.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, norad used to really like that when he posted here.

It's easiest on Delfino, you can actually pop up in the center of the stage from underneath it, lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

Delfino, Halberd, Brinstar...any stage with an edge and you can pass through the ground. And yeah I've always loved doing that too

 

[Salem]

So I was fooling around in training mode and discovered something neat...and somewhat practical. I guess you could say it's a mixup from the ledge.

You know how sometimes, when you try to upB shark from under the stage, if you're too close to the edge when you start the upB, our upB will go for the edge but NOT tether to it (the 'failed tether' if you will) so as a result we neither shark with our upB nor do we tether to the edge? (Happens a lot when trying to shark through BF)

Well, we can abuse this...kinda.

You know how when you go to BF/SV and you drop off the ledge, and jump into the bottom of the edge's slope, you will slide up the slope and grab the edge again? (Olis do this while uair planking)

Well, if you jump into the bottom of a slope with a boost jump (jump + upB) and you time it right (not hard to do at all), you slide all the way up and past the slope and land on the stage (and it puts you BARELY above the stage). Sounds lame I know, but try it out for yourself and you'll see just how close ZSS stays to the ground, so it's not as easy to punish this landing as it is punish, say, a ledge drop --> jump onto the stage.

When done on BF it also puts you in the perfect position to downB towards the centre and cancel the kick on the lower platform.

LATE.

trollface.jpeg

 

[infiniteV115]

wut a meanie

And what a terrible sig XD That 'M' looks like a well hung H
And the first row of the letters is off by a space

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

failed on random smashfest losing to zss dito twice

anyway confirmed for apex 2013

 

[Coolwhip]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=327694

What's up, fellas. Please stop by & share some advice on how zss can help mario as a doubles character.

 

[Jon Farron]

She can cover the air game pretty well, and stun for mario's side smash.

 

[BioDG]

Oh crap. Just turned on my Wii since whobo. Didn't know I had Nick Riddle vs Will on this.

Nick those were some great matches. It's a shame you couldn't pull off the 3rd stock in those rounds in spite of playing so well. I think if you guys played again you'd run away with the win reliably since you had the lead pretty much the whole time otherwise.

 

[infiniteV115]

Send those replays to Tesh and get that **** uploaded dude

 

[BioDG]

I'm lazy when it comes to that stuff. I put it all on the SD card so that was enough work. Give me one week.

 

[NickRiddle]

Me vs. will is online...

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh right. For some reason I was thinking that you guys had a bracket set AND a MM.
Bio, if you haven't seen it already, it's on keitaro's youtube channel. I think it's youtube.com/rurounikeitaro

 

[BioDG]

Oh.

Well I dunno what this ish is. But it certainly looks like a set.

 

[Tesh]

I think Will had the foresight to go around and collect his replays after the fact (or maybe it was just accidentally saved twice), but send me the rest, I know you probably have quite a few. I think my pool was played on your setup too.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yo, how is ZSS vs DK in everyone's opinion. No, scratch that. How are all the matchups?

MK -1
ICs +1
Diddy -1
Snake -1?
Falco -1?
Marth 0
Wario -1 (I still say 0)
Olimar -2
Pikachu -1?
Lucario 0´
Dedede +1
GaW +1 (I actually want it talk about this MU, I have a bit of experience with it now)
TL +1
Fox -1
Wolf 0
Peach +1
DK +2
Kirby +2
ROB +2
Pit 0
Sonic +1
Ike +1
Sheik 0 or +1
Luigi +2
Ness +1
Yoshi +2
Squirtle -1 or -2
Charizard +2
Ivysaur +2 or +3
Lucas +1
Mario +2
Bowser +2
Samus +2?
Falcon +2
Link +2
Jiggs +3
Zelda +3
Ganon +3

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

Agree with BioDG. Riddle some stuff was really impressive (dsmash to up-b for example), but otherwise.. Yea.

i want to mention up-b oos again. It's our fastest oos option isn't it? It has to be useful in some situations!

 

[NickRiddle]

I didn't want critique, I know I didmt do so great.

 

[Luigi player]

Don't worry Nick, it's not your fault. DK just beats ZSS.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Agree with BioDG. Riddle some stuff was really impressive (dsmash to up-b for example), but otherwise.. Yea.

i want to mention up-b oos again. It's our fastest oos option isn't it? It has to be useful in some situations!

First hitbox of up-b, on frame 5:

Maybe this is useful for Tornado on the top of shield? Or something lol.

First hitbox of usmash:

And then, the second group of hitboxes, out 2 frames later:

In other news, dair landing hitbox comes out on frame 1 and has transcendent priority, nerf.