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ZSS General Discussion

Tesh

Tesh

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Oct 28, 2008
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Nick didn't beat anyone good though. Getting a better bracket doesn't make him better. Will and Shaky have both beaten Nick Riddle too. Even as Salem's results slipped after Apex, its still leagues better than what any other ZSS ever has done and probably ever will. You can laugh at how M2K was bad at the matchup, but he 3 stocked Nick Riddle without any matchup knowledge anyway.

Those 3 ZSS had their shot even with alot of ignorance of the ZSS matchup to use and they still did not do anywhere near as well as Salem. Salem still won the toughest tournament ever, while other Zero Suits dont even win locals (well salem doesnt either :p). That doesn't become undone just because they slipped past him in bracket once.

At the end of the day, he made more money at Apex that any other brawl player will net from willing dozens of tournaments. He won where it mattered the most.
 
Heero Yuy

Heero Yuy

#sweg
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
945
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In your closet
^ Keyword: now.

Salem probably holds the biggest legacy of any ZSS will ever have, and I'll be the first to give him that. However, can you not tell how rusty he is at this game? You're bringing up an argument that Salem is the greatest ZSS of all time, while I'm only saying that Nick and some other highly-ranked ZSS players are better than him right now. It's like saying Sheik is the best character in Melee of all time just because she was originally topping the tier list, but now that she's only 3rd on the list, it doesn't really right now in today's metagame because Fox and Falco are far superior.
 
Tesh

Tesh

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Messages
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Look at something other than placing and you will see no one stepped up anything this weekend.
 
Heero Yuy

Heero Yuy

#sweg
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I will say that your argument applies moreso to Ally than Salem, who unlike Salem has been placing far better in his recent tournaments than Salem has. The rust only hit Ally in one tournament result, indicating his rust, but Salem's been placing below the top 5 in one tournament after another most recently. Salem's rust got to him so hard in this tournament that two ZSS players topped better than him both significantly, indicating that his skill has rather dropped since Apex.
 
Tesh

Tesh

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True, in a few months I'm sure they can claim their "win by default" just like the Snakes that stepped it up when Razer/Ally left.

However, at SKTAR no ZSS truly outperformed Salem even though it was his weakest performance since Apex. As I said, the best that can be said is that DRN beat Seibrik. But lets also not forget that if Salem had played Seibrik in bracket, he would have won because it takes Seibrik 7 games to slay ZSS and we dont do that in tournaments.
 
F

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
Tesh said:
Nick didn't beat anyone good though. Getting a better bracket doesn't make him better.
Click to expand...

HEY CAN WE LOOK AT SALEM'S APEX BRACKET NOW SINCE WE DO THIS TO OTHER PLAYERS?

oh wait no we cant because hes salem lol
 
infiniteV115

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
Heero, you're being illogical.
I think this might be literally the first tournament ever where Salem was outplaced by another ZSS. Maybe he has lost his drive, or maybe he is rusty, but you can't say those things for sure based off of one tournament only, because this is like by far the worst he's done since Apex 2013. Even after Apex 2013 he achieved wins over M2K, ZeRo and ADHD, which are all top-level wins.
The 'right now' argument is useless if you're only going to look at the results of the 1 most recent tournament, ESPECIALLY SKTAR 2 since that **** was FULL of upsets. Looking at only the most recent tournament is dumb because if 2 players outplaced each other back and forth, or beat each other back and forth, then you'd have to switch your stance every month/after every tourney which is just dumb. People perform differently on different occasions, have different brackets, improve, are better at certain MUs, etc.

Also ftr Salem didn't even go ZSS against Shaky, he went Snake.
Also wtf at no other ZSSs win locals, I win locals XD

Also idk how you could make the argument that I'm > Salem, I didn't even outplace him. The only thing I have over him is that I won my last encounter vs Will, whereas Salem lost it.
 
PEACE7

PEACE7

Smash Champion
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Feb 22, 2009
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I was so salty about SKTAR dubs i wanted NickRiddle and Shaky to take it sooo badd lol also yes SFP is indeed the best ZSS.
 
Heero Yuy

Heero Yuy

#sweg
Joined
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infiniteV115 said:
Heero, you're being illogical.
I think this might be literally the first tournament ever where Salem was outplaced by another ZSS. Maybe he has lost his drive, or maybe he is rusty, but you can't say those things for sure based off of one tournament only, because this is like by far the worst he's done since Apex 2013. Even after Apex 2013 he achieved wins over M2K, ZeRo and ADHD, which are all top-level wins.
The 'right now' argument is useless if you're only going to look at the results of the 1 most recent tournament, ESPECIALLY SKTAR 2 since that **** was FULL of upsets. Looking at only the most recent tournament is dumb because if 2 players outplaced each other back and forth, or beat each other back and forth, then you'd have to switch your stance every month/after every tourney which is just dumb. People perform differently on different occasions, have different brackets, improve, are better at certain MUs, etc.

Also ftr Salem didn't even go ZSS against Shaky, he went Snake.
Also wtf at no other ZSSs win locals, I win locals XD

Also idk how you could make the argument that I'm > Salem, I didn't even outplace him. The only thing I have over him is that I won my last encounter vs Will, whereas Salem lost it.
Click to expand...
Alright, you win and I'm convinced. I'll await one or two more tournaments that Salem attends, and if the same amount of upsets occur involving him will I make my own verdict. I still remain in the position that in a few months, you and a few other good players will surpass him.
 
Demna

Demna

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May 5, 2013
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3DS FC
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ZSS can't glide toss backwards, but I'm sure there is a technique that allows you glide backwards (Was it called foxtrotting? Not really sure), does anyone know this technique? I also have problems regarding the Game and Watch Matchup, I find myself pressured on stage and getting hit by N-air quite often when I'm in the air. Any tips regarding this MU? Thanks :)
 
E

Elyssa Xey Hexen

Broken!
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,345
Say you dash forward. If you do not keep the control stick held at all, then the character simply comes to a stop right? But, before going into a stop they have to enter this little braking animation. Well, just before this breaking animation a character can continue to dash forward. Foxtrot is this idea of only moving by doing the consecutive dash animations without ever entering a full run or braking animation.

One benefit out of this is that during that one moment before entering the brake animation you can do a variety of things like dash backwards. While attempting to dash backwards a character has to turn around for one frame before entering the next animation. During this one frame you can do a variety of things such as a smashes, standing grab, shield, jab, etc.

So, you could fox trot (dash -> dash -> dash) -> turn-around -> ftilt.
 
NickRiddle

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
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Shaky won a FL tournament using mostly ZSS yesterday.
Beat me in the ditto set 1 of GF, then I switched characters because it was too stressful.

He and I beat MVD and RedHalberd with ZSS.

ATL SOUTH ZERO SUITS!
 
Exdeath

Exdeath

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
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Florida
infiniteV115 said:
Heero, you're being illogical.
I think this might be literally the first tournament ever where Salem was outplaced by another ZSS. Maybe he has lost his drive, or maybe he is rusty, but you can't say those things for sure based off of one tournament only, because this is like by far the worst he's done since Apex 2013. Even after Apex 2013 he achieved wins over M2K, ZeRo and ADHD, which are all top-level wins.
The 'right now' argument is useless if you're only going to look at the results of the 1 most recent tournament, ESPECIALLY SKTAR 2 since that **** was FULL of upsets. Looking at only the most recent tournament is dumb because if 2 players outplaced each other back and forth, or beat each other back and forth, then you'd have to switch your stance every month/after every tourney which is just dumb. People perform differently on different occasions, have different brackets, improve, are better at certain MUs, etc.

Also ftr Salem didn't even go ZSS against Shaky, he went Snake.
Also wtf at no other ZSSs win locals, I win locals XD

Also idk how you could make the argument that I'm > Salem, I didn't even outplace him. The only thing I have over him is that I won my last encounter vs Will, whereas Salem lost it.
Click to expand...
Since when does DRN not outplace Salem?
 
NickRiddle

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
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They were on stream, not sure how good the stream ended up being though.
I hope so, I wanna watch GF S1 to see how to improve further in the ditto.
 
infiniteV115

infiniteV115

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
In the rain.
Exdeath said:
Since when does DRN not outplace Salem?
Click to expand...
I think they're actually 2-1 in terms of outplacing each other, in Salem's favour

Salem outplaced DRN at SKTAR 1 and Apex 2013
DRN outplaced Salem at SKTAR 2
They tied for 33rd at Apex 2012

Dunno if there were any other tournies that they both attended


Also goddammit now Shaky has a better ZSS than me too, wtf
 
PEACE7

PEACE7

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
2,213
Location
Training Mode
It was ****ing horrible lmao

Also can someone link me to some good matches of ZSS vs Icies or some notes about the MU, i don't know much about it at all.
 
Demna

Demna

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NJzFinest said:
Hey how do you do the Dash + reverse ground neutral B with ZZS?
Click to expand...
What I do: Dash > Let go of the analog stick (make sure it returns to neutral position) > Press B > Press the opposite direction on the analog stick quickly.
Make sure you don't press B+left/right on the analog stick together, or that might result in a Plasma Whip.
 
NJzFinest

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
8,861
Location
NYC
ahh, so it's pressing the reverse direction after B instead of before. Thanks for the tip.
 
Dakpo

Dakpo

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
1,912
Location
Denton, Texas
You never truly retire from this game. It's like riding a bike. Plus razur went and beat denty shortly after. So I don't think rusty johns are legit
 
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