PEACE7
Smash Champion
Idk about that V
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ZSS General Discussion
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NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Pikachu's slightly easier than Falco, MK's about the same, I still have no idea what Olimar is so I'll never know.
Maybe Denti can inform me when he stays with FL for SKTAR... whenever we decide to jump on that...
Maybe Denti can inform me when he stays with FL for SKTAR... whenever we decide to jump on that...
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
idk the Falco MU always just seemed like even at best and 55:45 Falco's favour at worst.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Because I play ESAM and I know what Pikachu can do to ZSS.
It's even, but sometimes I die at 30 because ZSS offstage, and Pikachu gets you there with f-throw.
It's even, but sometimes I die at 30 because ZSS offstage, and Pikachu gets you there with f-throw.
Dakpo
Smash Lord
im interested to know what pikachu you have played that has left such a salty taste in your mouth V115. I know Its not saying much, but Im basically 6-0 with k-prime. I even double eliminated him in one tourney XD. I also played Esam at MLG and did alright. I was outplayed by him more than the character
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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There is one thing I do not get about ZSS and that is how to approach neutral. I swear I have to play and hope people run into my stuff.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Oh I don't have any exp vs Pikachu.
It's not that I think Pikachu is a particularly bad MU, it's just that I think you guys are overrating how well Falco does against us. I just think Pikachu does better against us than Falco, not by a whole lot though. MK and Oli are still harder for us than Pikachu.
It's not that I think Pikachu is a particularly bad MU, it's just that I think you guys are overrating how well Falco does against us. I just think Pikachu does better against us than Falco, not by a whole lot though. MK and Oli are still harder for us than Pikachu.
Dakpo
Smash Lord
falco can camp safely. If a falco would be smart enough to do it, the match up would be worse
If he did this all match, It would have been an easy 2-0
www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8_kbPN6tXY#t=12m09s
If he did this all match, It would have been an easy 2-0
www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8_kbPN6tXY#t=12m09s
Spaghetti
Smash Apprentice
can't you try to punish the shdl with a dash attack? if you can read the shdl i feel like you can get in there. otherwise it's just learn to power shield while running i guess
This is why I said Keit isn't particularly gifted. If ZSS is close enough to initiate one of the few attacks she has without atrocious startup, he can sideB to reset instead of laser and there's nothing she can really do about it.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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That's one of the reason why SHDL is bad for Falco with camping because you an just wait until you see him short hop, then call the lasers. He should really be camping short hops and if its clear go for the lagless laser otherwise resort to double jump, air dodge, nair, or reflector.
You can do something about the SideB though. Shield it on reaction into a dash attack. Or against the Kirby who likes to do it against me a lot is shield -> fsmash lol
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Shielding the sideB on reaction into a dash attack should never work unless the Falco is terrible
Spaghetti
Smash Apprentice
depends on the spacing, can't you interrupt with dtilt or jab?
isnt side b like frame 22? if actually approaching him is so hopeless why don't you just run up to him and dash attack away from him to catch the phantasm?
the faster characters in the game can always punish side b on a read and ZSS is easily one of the quickest
the faster characters in the game can always punish side b on a read and ZSS is easily one of the quickest
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
On a read, sure.
On reaction when the Falco sideBs properly (assuming we're talking about camping here, not recovery), no.
Yes you can interrupt Falco's sideB with a lot of things but that should only work when he doesn't do it properly. The first 1/3rd of phantasm is completely invincible so even if you clash with it, he'll go past you (although you won't get hit) and there's not enough time to punish him afterwards.
If you're punishing phantasm out of shield on reaction, or stopping it on reaction, the Falco didn't phantasm properly. But again, on a read, sure.
On reaction when the Falco sideBs properly (assuming we're talking about camping here, not recovery), no.
Yes you can interrupt Falco's sideB with a lot of things but that should only work when he doesn't do it properly. The first 1/3rd of phantasm is completely invincible so even if you clash with it, he'll go past you (although you won't get hit) and there's not enough time to punish him afterwards.
If you're punishing phantasm out of shield on reaction, or stopping it on reaction, the Falco didn't phantasm properly. But again, on a read, sure.
So...what is so hard about reading him? Aren't some of you complaining that ZSS can't even get in his face? So you already know dash attacking towards him won't work so nothing to lose by dash attacking away. If you get him, its a free 40 damage.
You shouldn't really be trying to shield it anyway (unless you are really scared I guess), cuz thats a guaranteed reset.
Could you perhaps show me an example of a ZSS getting camped by a Falco?
You shouldn't really be trying to shield it anyway (unless you are really scared I guess), cuz thats a guaranteed reset.
Could you perhaps show me an example of a ZSS getting camped by a Falco?
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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I'm suggesting it because ZSS is one of the few characters with a fast dash to make most of the frame advantage she has on shielding the phantasm and dash attack allows for decent follow-up opportunities as well. The other reason is because in order to be totally impossible to punish Falco must start phantasm rather close to ZSS in the first place. If ZSS is about half way in the middle of phantasm distance she can punish.
Other characters also have a sex-kick like move to help with this. To hit Falco you want a fast move to use on reaction or one with large hitboxes to catch him in sideB. Dash attack is probably the best option though that ZSS has for something like that.
I was talking about punishing phantasm when Falco attempts to try using the move to reset spacing. With about ~20 frames of start-up lag, there is no way Falco will be able to precisely space or time his phantasm which makes it possible to punish. Suppose you are near falco at the ledge and he runs back offstage into phantasm, but you already dashed away when he did this during his start-up lag. You (paying attention to your opponent as you should) notice the 1/3 of a second Falco lags in the air and shield on reaction (20 frames to react is plenty). Due to you dashing away falco ends his phantasm relatively close to you. Too far away for jab/tilt, but close enough for dash attack.
*facepalm* I have lost track of how many people keep believing the first 1/3 of the move is invincible. Its not and I can go into detail why, but I'll just tell you now its not. If you are not punishing a full phantasm (that goes through you), then you are not timing or spacing your move correctly to hit Falco out of phantasm. ANY hitbox work. But larger hitboxes and ones that linger are easier to use.
Not sure what you mean by proper. A full phantasm is full of wholes because of that 1/3 second start-up lag where the opponent could be doing just about anything to mess up is spacing. If you mean by adding in cancels, then this is the only way he can correct himself at the last second. But it doens't always happen. Hitting a one frame time slot for the exact distance you want is a bit difficult to be consistent with.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
I'm pretty sure the first third of phantasm is invincible, I've seen Falcos go through all kinds of ****. ZSS holding jab1 (ie holding A so she does the rapid jab1), MK nair, etc.
Please go into detail on why it's not invincible. A debug-mode demonstration would be perfect but idk if you can do that.
Please go into detail on why it's not invincible. A debug-mode demonstration would be perfect but idk if you can do that.
Yeah this is what I meant by phantasming 'properly'
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCAjswCuLds
As Tesh said, Falco moves his hurtbox large distances from one location to another. If you notice in that video, his first relocation is rather large while the last few are short spaced between each other. This is probably what gives the illusion of being invincible. Where you want to hit Falco is usually right behind you when you whiffed. Also, after Falco starts moving to different locations that is when the hitboxes appear. The hitboxes are showing up directly behind falco after he moves to each location. Ideally, if you want to fish for phantasm punishes you want to space yourself from falco during about the last half of the phantasm distance for the best chance of hitting him. Its possible to hit him earlier, but it harder with that large gap between those two locations on his first wrapping.
2) Lets me refer back to that video again. See how each frame he moves forward? Okay, at that exact frame where he moved forward (3 times moving forward' one frame before moving, 2nd movement, than 3rd movement) Falco can cancel his SideB. Now, the last two cancels are basically 1/2 distance and 3/4 distance which with the forward momentum he gets basically makes him travel pretty far still in the first place. If you place yourself about 3/4 distance of phantasm you can punish any of his landing spots the full, 3/4, and 1/2 distances. The 3/4 and full will typically require you to shield drop -> dash attack though to not get hit by phantasm.
The last cancel spot is pretty much falco not moving forward at all, but since you canceled he still gets a bit of falling forward momentum. The first cancel is probably the only one you cannot punish reliably. Otherwise, in order to be completely unpunishable Falco really needs to phantasm like point blank in your face just about which is sort of risky for him due to that 20 frame start-up lag. What if you got ballsy and charged at him or did a B charge or SideB? Its just risky to see falco phantasm right in front of you and more likely he'll space it a bit making shield -> dash attack work.
Also, I would not warrant spamming jab1 at all to try stopping phantasm. The move repeats every 7 frames by doing that except the hitbox is only active on frame 1 and 2. So pretty much,
1 - Jab1 hitbox
2- Jab 2 hitbox
3- Lag I might get hit.
4- Lag I might get hit.
5- Lag I might get hit.
6- Lag I might get hit.
7- Lag I might get hit.
8- Jab1 hitbox
9- Jab1 hitbox.
That 5 frames you have no hitbox active Falco can phantasm right by you and you get hit instead. Every time you jab you have 2/7 frames to hit while 5/7 frames to get hit instead. And by spamming jab1 you are gambling and 2/7 is not great odds. Again as I said before, its best to use large hitboxes that linger as your easiest way of hitting falco out of phantasm. To me, neutral B is the best move for the job at the very least to prevent any phantasm directly through you while you should be able to puinish any landing lag to platforms he might try or directly above you.
Spaghetti
Smash Apprentice
hey man it worked on orion today :3
Spaghetti
Smash Apprentice
All the practice against Cyan must've made Onion free at the ZSS MU, that's why he loses to quik and to Salem!
Orion: I have experience in this matchup!
kappakappakappakappakappakappakappakappakappakappakappakappakappakappa
All the practice against Cyan must've made Onion free at the ZSS MU, that's why he loses to quik and to Salem!
He hasn't played my ZSS in almost two years, I just play Random now on the rare occasions I do play.
Not gonna john for him though. He shouldn't have lost. :\
EDIT: wtf was this guy doing playing MK, holy ****.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
He air-dodged to the ground.
Deserved to lose.
Deserved to lose.
Susi
Smash Apprentice
solecalibur
Smash Master
I haven't played this game in almost 2 years, anything new with zss?
PEACE7
Smash Champion
ZSS won the biggest brawl tournament!
BlueXenon
Smash Lord
Salem won Apex 2013, but stopped doing well in tournaments a month later.
Watch it here:
Heero Yuy
#sweg
Nick is better than Salem...Now.
^ It would be pretty foolish to call that based on SKTAR 2. All ZSS did pretty unimpressive. DRN beat Seibrik, but either he has fallen off of he just had a bad weekend, because Seibrik did pretty mediocre this weekend.
It would have been nice to see a ZSS golden age with nice rivalries, but it looks like Salem has become satisfied and lost his drive (honestly what to you aspire to after winning the most stacked brawl tournament ever?) without anyone stepping up to take his place.
The sad thing is, after Salem's peak, the closest thing other ZSS players can hold on to is "well the people who beat me can beat you too".
It would have been nice to see a ZSS golden age with nice rivalries, but it looks like Salem has become satisfied and lost his drive (honestly what to you aspire to after winning the most stacked brawl tournament ever?) without anyone stepping up to take his place.
The sad thing is, after Salem's peak, the closest thing other ZSS players can hold on to is "well the people who beat me can beat you too".
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
I STILL TIED WITH THE HIGHEST PLACING MARTH!
Marth sucks.
Marth sucks.
Heero Yuy
#sweg
While I don't really disagree with you, you have to bear in mind that because of that reason of "winning Apex, losing the drive", Salem's been so inconsistent following that. SKTAR 2 isn't the only tournament that can prove my point. You would think that other ZSS players would still have an ignited fuel to keep going on, while Salem in particular doesn't have it like he used to. Therefore, in the end, attitude is everything. Nick, DRN, and V > Salem for right now.
As for Seibrik, he did beat Salem in a MM, AND he tied with Salem in the actual tournament. He might've done mediocre but DRN bested him and Nick placed higher.