DK can get a surprising amount of height out of his upB. If you tetherhog, there's a good chance he'll pop up over the edge. This also gives him a lagless landing for the UpB, which is bad for you, since now you're being edgeguarded by DK.
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Zero Suit Samus Questions & Answers
- Thread starter phanna
- Start date
Paff
Smash Journeyman
I'm still working on my procedures after catching someone in a downsmash. Currently, what I do most of the time is dsmash->dsmash->fsmash. It racks damage nicely, it doesn't stale my main KO moves, and it has vaguely reasonable KO ability.
Now, I've seen posts around that this is not a reliable followup. This confuses me, because I've never had it fail to land. So, how is it not reliable? I presume it's only working for me because my opponents don't know how to get out of it?
Now, I've seen posts around that this is not a reliable followup. This confuses me, because I've never had it fail to land. So, how is it not reliable? I presume it's only working for me because my opponents don't know how to get out of it?
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
It is a reliable followup, it's just that if you do two d-smashes and time it poorly you risk missing. Other than that, after a d-smash is the only time I will normally use f-smash on purpose.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
It's plenty reliable, well, you could jump out of it at higher percents I assume, I dunno, I never use it. The problem is, it's just about as reliable as a F-Air. F-Smash does, umm, ~10%(?), while F-Air does 17%. I believe F-Air has more knockback as well. Personally, I go with aerials every time, U-Air at super low percents (0-30), F-Air for the rest (30-130), B-Air when I can KO (130+).
Paff
Smash Journeyman
@DeliciousCake:
I usually just c-stick all three as quickly as possible, and it seems very difficult to mistime with such methods. Although if one's opponent is below ground height, the fsmash has to be delayed and timing gets a little tricky I suppose.
@FadedImage:
Yeah, fsmash does about 10%, except towards its tip and in the area behind Samus, where I think it does 6%. I guess I'll look into fair.
I usually just c-stick all three as quickly as possible, and it seems very difficult to mistime with such methods. Although if one's opponent is below ground height, the fsmash has to be delayed and timing gets a little tricky I suppose.
@FadedImage:
Yeah, fsmash does about 10%, except towards its tip and in the area behind Samus, where I think it does 6%. I guess I'll look into fair.
Non-sweetspotted fsmash does %10. If you're good at spacing you can get 11%, but you're a lot more likely to get 10. You know what else does 10%? Nair, and this one has more useful knockback and more follow up options. Fair and uair are good, too.
You can use fsmash after two dsmashes if you want to, but it's only good at higher percents, and even then, the knockback is incredibly disappointing. I don't use it.
You can use fsmash after two dsmashes if you want to, but it's only good at higher percents, and even then, the knockback is incredibly disappointing. I don't use it.
NeoZero
Smash Apprentice
It really comes down to personal preference. Some people like using it out of a double down smash, while some people don't (ph00tbag).
I only do it if I dont think I'll be able to land the aerial (mostly happens when I get a surprise hit by a down smash and wasn't expecting to have to follow it up). Otherwise, I do whatever aerial seems more convenient.
I only do it if I dont think I'll be able to land the aerial (mostly happens when I get a surprise hit by a down smash and wasn't expecting to have to follow it up). Otherwise, I do whatever aerial seems more convenient.
Villi
Smash Lord
I'm picking up ZSS because she's a matchup I have some trouble with. I think lots of Zamus' like to use up tilt as an oos option. What do you all think of up smash or down b out of shield? Up smash is slightly faster (oos) and doesn't seems to have much ending lag, and down b has invincibility from frame 1 so it at least gets you out of sticky situations.
Up smash doesn't hit from behind like up tilt would, and down b probably wouldn't really punish anyone tho. Actually, I can't remember the last time I saw a ZSS upsmash. What's up with that?
Up smash doesn't hit from behind like up tilt would, and down b probably wouldn't really punish anyone tho. Actually, I can't remember the last time I saw a ZSS upsmash. What's up with that?
Adapt
Smash Lord
utilt comes out on frame 3
usmash comes out on frame 6 (utilt is actually faster)
utilt also hits on both sides and can't really be DIed close so you will be punished. Usmash can be SDIed out of the final hit. This being said Usmash is still useful to prevent approaches from above.
Down-B is an interesting option, I have never tried it though so I can't comment on it
usmash comes out on frame 6 (utilt is actually faster)
utilt also hits on both sides and can't really be DIed close so you will be punished. Usmash can be SDIed out of the final hit. This being said Usmash is still useful to prevent approaches from above.
Down-B is an interesting option, I have never tried it though so I can't comment on it
Usmash out of shield might work if your opponent isn't spacing properly. I prefer to use it as an interception tool rather than an punishing tool, though. Utilt is faster, and harder to SDI. Uair is better if your opponent is tall enough, because it's also very hard to punish.
The problem with Flip Jump out of shield is that it has a predictable trajectory, and you can only change that trajectory by kicking, which barely has an effect. Honestly, the risks outweigh the benefits in this situation.
The reason not many ZSSes usmash is because there are very few situations where it outclasses other moves. I tend to use it primarily, as I said, as an interception tool. I also use it if my opponent is on the platform above me, especially for platform tech chasing. Most people only like it for the latter of the two.
The real issue is that if your opponent SDIs out, it's very punishable.
The problem with Flip Jump out of shield is that it has a predictable trajectory, and you can only change that trajectory by kicking, which barely has an effect. Honestly, the risks outweigh the benefits in this situation.
The reason not many ZSSes usmash is because there are very few situations where it outclasses other moves. I tend to use it primarily, as I said, as an interception tool. I also use it if my opponent is on the platform above me, especially for platform tech chasing. Most people only like it for the latter of the two.
The real issue is that if your opponent SDIs out, it's very punishable.
Villi
Smash Lord
Ah, ok, I didn't think about SDI out of it. It seems to me from fighting ZSS that up air also has more priority than up smash. VS Peach, often her dair hits will just cancel the wire hits while up air out prioritizes.
I think I wanna see the flip jump stuff for myself, but couldn't you just out prioritize punishment attempts with a kick or simply double jump away?
Adapt, I would think a JC up smash would be faster since shield drop is typically 7 frames added onto up tilt's 3 frame start up. Jump canceling eliminates shield drop lag.
I think I wanna see the flip jump stuff for myself, but couldn't you just out prioritize punishment attempts with a kick or simply double jump away?
Adapt, I would think a JC up smash would be faster since shield drop is typically 7 frames added onto up tilt's 3 frame start up. Jump canceling eliminates shield drop lag.
So just follow with a shield canceled dash. You'll probably PS the kick and then have the freedom to do whatever you **** well please.
Delvro
Smash Ace
I have a question: how well does ZSS do against Luigi?
There's an old thread here that says ZSS is at a disadvantage... but I disagree. I want to know what the consensus is these days.
There's an old thread here that says ZSS is at a disadvantage... but I disagree. I want to know what the consensus is these days.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
I don't have much matchup experience with Luigi, but I would put it at about even. Luigi has a lot of annoying aerials (mainly n-air) which put a dent in ZSS's game. His projectile is fast enough to cause spacing problems. I think it might be slightly in ZSS's advantage if ZSS knew the matchup well enough to properly space Luigi's aerials and gimp his recovery.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I actually don't like the match up that much I'd say it's 60/40 Luigi's favor. His priority is really annoying, although down B should allow ZSS to escape most of his combos. Actually, it's probably about even I think I just need to work on the match up more lol. I don't get to play the match up much because there aren't too many Luigi players (yeah like we're ones to talk XD)
James Sparrow
Smash Master
I had lots of trouble with the one and only luigi I've ever played. It was aarosmashguy though and he's really good at smash so....
Taalcon
Smash Journeyman
Luigi's up angled forward smash kills at around 70-80% fresh and has IASA frames at like frame 21 or something (don't quote me on that) but has really short range. In general, Luigi's kill moves are in order
30-60% up-B burning punch of death kill
60-100% Forward smash kill
100%+ Upsmash kill
so yeah watch out for these, you should be able to avoid up-B and forward smash with mediocre spacing. Luigi's tend to spam their forward smash (I know I do lol) like metaknights downsmash at killing percentages because of its amazing kill power fast start up and crazy short lag.
EDIT: Also watch out for their sliding forward smash. They start walking and charge a forward smash and Luigi's low traction allows him to slide forward while charging, which increases their forward smash range but is predictable and avoidable. This applies to all of his smashes.
30-60% up-B burning punch of death kill
60-100% Forward smash kill
100%+ Upsmash kill
so yeah watch out for these, you should be able to avoid up-B and forward smash with mediocre spacing. Luigi's tend to spam their forward smash (I know I do lol) like metaknights downsmash at killing percentages because of its amazing kill power fast start up and crazy short lag.
EDIT: Also watch out for their sliding forward smash. They start walking and charge a forward smash and Luigi's low traction allows him to slide forward while charging, which increases their forward smash range but is predictable and avoidable. This applies to all of his smashes.
kuenzel
Smash Ace
How do you throw slide?
Snakeee
Smash Master
I'm not positive, but if you just hold A, the jab might break it. I think I did this before, but I'd have to check.
I know you can grab him though if you do it fast enough, and the old down B can always do the trick to just avoid it.
Adapt
Smash Lord
I don't think this deserves a topic, but I want to mention it somewhere.
I have found a pretty good use for down-air.
If you get hit in the air and have your second jump you can easily bait and punish smash attacks.
Scenario: You get hit upwards by a character, they are on the ground and you are coming down (there are no platforms). You come into their range and they will normally do one of the following:
a) start an utilt/usmash etc to hit you.
b) shield against your approach
c) jump up to hit you
d) move out of the way
Heres what you do:
a) jump out of the way of the attack and immediately dair their sorry *** while they are in the ending lag of the move.
b) bair the shield and roll/run away or jump away
c) airdodge and now you are underneath them and in good position
d) land
I have had pretty good success with this strategy, and I got a number of dairs to connect really easily.
Note: don't try this against characters with long usmashes like zelda or lucario.
I have found a pretty good use for down-air.
If you get hit in the air and have your second jump you can easily bait and punish smash attacks.
Scenario: You get hit upwards by a character, they are on the ground and you are coming down (there are no platforms). You come into their range and they will normally do one of the following:
a) start an utilt/usmash etc to hit you.
b) shield against your approach
c) jump up to hit you
d) move out of the way
Heres what you do:
a) jump out of the way of the attack and immediately dair their sorry *** while they are in the ending lag of the move.
b) bair the shield and roll/run away or jump away
c) airdodge and now you are underneath them and in good position
d) land
I have had pretty good success with this strategy, and I got a number of dairs to connect really easily.
Note: don't try this against characters with long usmashes like zelda or lucario.
I wouldn't expect jab to bust all the way through, but I can see it clanking, and that's still not the best situation against Luigi, since his moves are so fast.
Snakeee
Smash Master
But if it does 'clank', another jab start would be faster than anything he could do.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
Battlefield.
uhhh. i knew she was really good there, but not her best.
tanks...
Adapt
Smash Lord
PS1 and Norfair are my usual counterpicks, but Battlefield is good too. I don't find brinstar to be that good for ZSS
Snakeee
Smash Master
I actually think it depends greatly on who you're playing against. Usually it would be between battlefield and FD depending on the opponent and also throw Pokemon stadium in there (which is her best stage for teams all around btw).
My personal favorite though is Rainbow Cruise, but you have to know what you're doing there to make good use of it
btw CBA sorry if I asked aleady but do I know you? Have you been to Bum's weeklys or anything else in NYC?
My personal favorite though is Rainbow Cruise, but you have to know what you're doing there to make good use of it
btw CBA sorry if I asked aleady but do I know you? Have you been to Bum's weeklys or anything else in NYC?
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
thecatinthehat
Smash Master
ZOMG a Sonic Main! Run!
No really, I recently got into ZSS.
I was wondering if you guys played with tap jump on or off?
Just curious.
No really, I recently got into ZSS.
I was wondering if you guys played with tap jump on or off?
Just curious.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
Off so as not to jump during Plasma Wire.
NOPE, ive been to W2Z but never participated. also IM always planning on going but never do. btw ive been wanting dittos w/ you for the longest. =3 lol
ok Mr. Affirmitive. i didnt really ask for you to answer my 2nd post. and i was not making an argument.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
I play with it on. Its probably better to use it off for zss tho. Im just so used to having it on for wolf stuff.ZOMG a Sonic Main! Run!
No really, I recently got into ZSS.
I was wondering if you guys played with tap jump on or off?
Just curious.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
I find it basically impossible to play ZSS with tap jump on. They made it ridiculously sensitive in brawl, so even the slightest tap is going to send you flying, when really all you wanted was an up-b... ): This happens in the air too, total bummer.
i actually play w/ tap jump on, i havent played w/ it off cause it might mess up some things i do. but As lucario i get a bit frustrated cause at times i do his u-air.
i was in GB and there was this beast ZSS named "Below Zero" and she was very good. as soon as i found out she played Zss i immediately wanted a ditto. and lost, of course.
i was in GB and there was this beast ZSS named "Below Zero" and she was very good. as soon as i found out she played Zss i immediately wanted a ditto.
and lost, of course.
James Sparrow
Smash Master
stages with low ceiling are great. on that regard, smashville, green greens, corneria, rainbow cruise are all great choices.
i play with tap jump on, too used to it from melee, and i know how to do up b without jumping.
i play with tap jump on, too used to it from melee, and i know how to do up b without jumping.