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Zelda's Stage Discussion #10 -- Battlefield!
- Thread starter Kataefi
- Start date
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Not the claw, Kat. That's the one he means.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I also thought the claw went after whoever was losing the match because I always got hit with the claw and targeted by the laser.
goodkid
Smash Lord
Seems like I've missed everything. Halberd is a good choice for Zelda. There's enough space to Din's Camp if needed. The ceiling height is low, so that aids her amazing vertical KO power.
sniperworm
Smash Ace
I know right? Now I just need to find a way to come up with useful information...
The targeting of all the Halberd hazards is random.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Din's camp against who, exactly? Din's isn't that hard to get by unless you're super, super slow, and most projectile users outcamp Zelda.
You'll also be dying at incredibly low percents.
I've always used this stage a lot as a sort of personal preference.......But it doesn't really give Zelda any major advantages one way or the other. This is a pretty good Sheik stage however.
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
Hey this is backtracking a little, but one Teleport Cancel spot in Pokemon Stadium 2 is when you teleport diagonally from the respawn platform in the middle, after you lose a stock.
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
Judging by the lack of posts here lately, I think we ought to move to next stage.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
where should we go next? distant planet?
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
distant planets in cp/ban now IIRC, so it can be talked about.......its my fav cp stage cause no one likes it lol
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
No items. Fox only. FINAL DESTINATION!
Any stage is fine with me.
Any stage is fine with me.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
It's banned in Jersey a lot of the stages are I haven't played there in a while.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Distant Planet has been banned at every tournament I've ever been to.... and most tournament's I've seen. =X
I vote Castle Siege. I think it can be a good CP for Zelda, especially against some of her more troublesome matchups.... I'm eager to see how other people feel about it.
I vote Castle Siege. I think it can be a good CP for Zelda, especially against some of her more troublesome matchups.... I'm eager to see how other people feel about it.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
im fine w/ castle siege. people should stop banning distant planet cause of the PS2 effect. D:
MrEh
Smash Hero
I vote Warioware and Spear Pillar.
These might be the best counterpicks for Zelda, since it can easily turn her bad matchups into winnable ones.
These might be the best counterpicks for Zelda, since it can easily turn her bad matchups into winnable ones.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Cool I like Castle Seige.
I think the first transformation is the best for her even though the ceilings are high you can kill off the side pretty easily. Those barriers things are like the things on Luigi's Mansion so they stop projectile spam but be careful you don't LK that cuz it will end in you getting punished.
I think the first transformation is the best for her even though the ceilings are high you can kill off the side pretty easily. Those barriers things are like the things on Luigi's Mansion so they stop projectile spam but be careful you don't LK that cuz it will end in you getting punished.
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
Umm... you mean the statues in the second transformation, right? There´re no "barrier things" in the first form.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
The first time the stage transforms are the statues the second time you're like in hell I guess whatever that supposed to be. Then it transforms back to the original level.
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
Yeah we´re talking about the same thing. I just always talk about the stage having three tranformations = forms (first, the one with statues and the last) while you were referring to the forms that follow after each transformation.
So when you said "first tranformation" I was thinking about the starting form of the stage.
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
I think the first two transformations (using Half-Slit Soul's definition here) are in Zelda's favor.
The slope on the first one can make for easy Lightning Kicks, dtilts, usmashes, everything else Zelda's known for (except Din's Fire)... Just watch out for the weird edges. Shouldn't be a problem if you're experienced with the stage though...
The statues in the second room extend her usmash, and the platforms can cause easy drop-through+Lightning Kick moves.
Though the last one doesn't seem so great for Zelda. The moving ledges can make it a bit too easy to kill yourself when you teleport there. Supposedly the sloping stage could make for easy, Lightning Kicks and usmashes... provided it's turning with you already at the bottom.
The slope on the first one can make for easy Lightning Kicks, dtilts, usmashes, everything else Zelda's known for (except Din's Fire)... Just watch out for the weird edges. Shouldn't be a problem if you're experienced with the stage though...
The statues in the second room extend her usmash, and the platforms can cause easy drop-through+Lightning Kick moves.
Though the last one doesn't seem so great for Zelda. The moving ledges can make it a bit too easy to kill yourself when you teleport there. Supposedly the sloping stage could make for easy, Lightning Kicks and usmashes... provided it's turning with you already at the bottom.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
i think she fairs pretty well on the last section too, its like FD just teetering.....
the second form give some fun camping antics, but getting trapped hitting the statues can be a really bad thing.....
the second form give some fun camping antics, but getting trapped hitting the statues can be a really bad thing.....
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
hey.... our projectile actually goes through the statues in transformation 2...... yay.
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
Everyone's ending their sentences with dots for this stage.....
lol, ellipses
lol, ellipses
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Oh, I guess we're discussing Castle Siege now? (I kept ignoring this thread because the title still said Halberd, lol.)
I'll add something a little later. I love this stage for Zelda.
I'll add something a little later. I love this stage for Zelda.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
well im using them cause this isn't my Zelda stage, you know you always fight my Wolf here Ocho lol
goodkid
Smash Lord
This is my favorite stage for Zelda 
Castle Siege is a good choice IMO. Some say otherwise and they are probably right, but this stage works for me.
On the left side of the starter stage, she can duck and is completely safe from Falco's laser spam
^^^^ but this isn't a reason why you should choose this stage
The 1st transformation is where she excels. This stage is great for evasion and camping. Dropping Uairs/Kicks from the platforms work well here and her up-b works well here.
Castle Siege is a good choice IMO. Some say otherwise and they are probably right, but this stage works for me.
On the left side of the starter stage, she can duck and is completely safe from Falco's laser spam
^^^^ but this isn't a reason why you should choose this stage
The 1st transformation is where she excels. This stage is great for evasion and camping. Dropping Uairs/Kicks from the platforms work well here and her up-b works well here.
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
Just curious, how exactly does Farore's Wind work so well here? There's a little crevice under the ledges on the first transformation, which makes making the sweetspot teleport slightly more difficult (in my opinion). The second transformation doesn't have a ledge, and the third transformation's ledge has a curved shape which makes it difficult to grab with a teleport, again in my opinion. Especially with the ledge constantly moving.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
By first transformation he means the second part with the statues.
Not a good stage for Zelda especially against high tiers.
Not a good stage for Zelda especially against high tiers.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
I disagree.... with enough practice on this stage, I think it can work really well for Zelda. It has its cons, but they're not too hard to work around.
I've been meaning to make my post on this stage, but I'm about to go take a quick nap for a few hours, and then I'll be back. I'll try to write it then. ><
Elder Sister
Smash Lord
the transformation from stage to stage always makes me fuzzy
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I disagree with this and agree with KayLo. Especially since you didn't really give a reason as to WHY it's a bad stage.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
You will get out spaced and out camped. The high tier characters will make better use of the platforms, slants, large open areas and small blast zones.
The statues in the second part aren't as effective as Luigi's Mansion because there are no narrow corridors to limit approach options. In Luigi's Mansion as long as you don't break the top pillars you can wail on the bottom one forever. If you start waiting by the statues they won't last that long.
Zelda can't camp on the second part. You can try but it won't work.
MrEh
Smash Hero
So you disagree with DM because he didn't elaborate, but you agree with KayLo...even though she didn't elaborate either? Hm...
First part offers no Zelda specific advantages whatsoever. The ******** ledges are a universal disadvantage for most characters though.
2nd part is dumb. Attempting to camp here is going to be difficult, especially since the wide area gives every character more approach options. And more running options I might add. If your opponent is ahead in percent or stocks, most of the time they can run and Zelda won't be able to do a darn thing about it. Dins camping is too slow, and it's not like those statutes help. If you start hiding under a statue, oh no! What am I going to do? Am I going to cry, because Zelda has become an invincible wall? Or am I going to laugh, because I'm MK, and I already see 50 ways to approach her? Hmm...
Third part is just another neutral stage with a stupid slanting edge.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
No. Because I like the stage and he didn't give me any reason to change that opinion.
Not like it hurts zelda anymore than anyone else really. And the platforms and small size as well as stage shape acn work into zelda's game well. It's really hard to camp on this portion of the stage.
2nd part of the stage is normally just a runaway game until the next transformation. It's stupid, but it doesn't hurt Zelda more than anyone else really.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Castle Siege is good for Zeldabunz.
First Transformation (Roof):
PROS:
In some ways, I feel like the first transformation is one of the main reasons why Castle Siege is good for Zelda. The small size, platforms, and slants make it hard for traditional campers (Falco, Fox, Pikachu, etc.) to spam against you while also hindering their ability to run away. Zelda likes to push up on her opponents and keep them near her, and the first transformation is plenty cramped enough to aid you in that.
The platforms are also ideally placed, imo. Since Zelda doesn't approach aerially as much as other characters do, they help her more than they would another character. Full hopped/double jumped approaches become nearly impossible for other characters once you're safely camped beneath a platform. This cuts off your opponent's options to some degree, so if you know their character and know what their SH/ground approaches are, predicting how they'll come to you becomes much easier.
The platforms are also great for nairs & SH uairs, as always. Because the space is so cramped, I've knocked people from one platform to the other with nair (highly dependent on DI, mind you), then followed up with another nair.... it's too funny, lol. Walk-off bairs & fairs are also fun.
The slant in the middle can be a positive as well. If you dthrow with your back to the slant at low percentages, following up with usmash is slightly easier because of the shape of the stage. I dunno how to explain it.... basically, because the stage is higher on the other side of the slant, their DI'ing up won't matter as much because your usmash gets a vertical boost from the stage going upwards. This works for followups from jab, dash attack, and nair as well.
Dtilt is somewhat broken on the slant. If you catch them there, DI'ing away from it becomes a LOT harder for them.
The blastlines are close, so killing is easier. Uair kills are especially aided since they're easier to land here with the platforms arranged to your advantage. Moves that normally wouldn't kill (ftilt, bthrow, etc.) become more viable than usual.
Short version:
- Less space is good for Zelda
- Slant & platforms aid in avoiding camp
- Well-placed platforms are good for nair/uair/fair/bair
- Slant is beneficial for followups
- People die earlier, especially from uair, which is easier to land on this transformation
- Related to the above, this transformation gives Zelda more kill moves
- Dtilt on the slant is crazy good
CONS:
The ledges. Are stupid. Really, really stupid. They have lips that can catch you and make it **** near impossible to recover, but since we all play Zelda and have had to deal with her bad recovery for a long time now, good DI and recovery decisions will make the ledges a moot point. Just don't recover low. The good news is that the funky ledges screw with almost everyone, so it's more of a universal con than a Zelda-specific one.
Getting stuck on one of the platforms vs. certain characters can be a bad thing, but they're short enough that getting off is rarely a huge issue. As long as you don't miss a tech on one, platform **** shouldn't be a problem.
The small size means Zelda can die earlier as well, but her variety of kill moves makes this less of a problem for her than it is for other characters.
Also, large characters who excel in close-range combat where you actually want more space (ex: Bowser & Ike come to mind) may do better here.
Short version:
- Stupid ledges
- Zelda dies earlier too
- Getting stuck on the platforms can be bad
- Some bulky, longer-ranged characters may do better here than Zelda does
Transforming State ("Grey Stage"):
PROS:
Grabbing someone near one of the walk-offs at mid-high percentage pretty much spells their death. Same goes for fsmashes, dsmashes, etc. etc., but the same can be done to you, so be careful.
Other than that, it's just a flat stage. If you grab someone while the stage is changing, you'll automatically grab release during the actual point of transformation. I'm not sure if it's always an air release or not, but every time it's happened to me, I've air released. If you're quick enough (and depending on where the stage drops you), most people will be confused by the sudden release and give you an opportunity to dash-cancel a usmash on them (or dash attack or what have you).
Other notes on transformation shenanigans:
- When the stage transforms, the blastlines shrink similar to how they do on Delfino. Sending someone away with fsmash/usmash/throwing can kill them even if they look like they're not far enough.
- When the stage is going back to first transformation, STAY IN THE MIDDLE if you can, and try to send your opponent off to the sides. When it settles into the stage proper, they'll be off the edge and might get stage-gimped. I daired someone once right when the stage settled and got a spike because the floor had just disappeared. XD
Short version:
- Grabs & high knockback moves close to the walk-offs will get you early kills
- Grab releases during transformation often lead to free hits
- Transformation deaths and gimps can work in your favor if you stay aware
- Zelda can't get CG'd off the edges
CONS:
It's flat, so campers can try to take advantage of that. Luckily, this part doesn't last long, so don't focus on approaching.... just avoid as many projectiles as you can. Also, unless you're sure you can get the grab or fsmash near the edge, stay away from the walk-offs.
Short version:
- Campers can camp
- Walk-off/transformation deaths suck
Second Transformation (Statues):
PROS:
The stage everyone knows Castle Siege for.... the statues. This transformation is really pretty great for Zelda despite people saying LOLJOOCAN'TCAMP. The object isn't to camp here, it's to control the stage.
Speaking of camp, though, there are few projectiles that can go through the statues. Most people won't waste their time trying to break them down since the stage doesn't last forever, so you can pretty much count on them being there to stop incoming projectile spam. Plus for Zelda, since Din's goes through the statues, so if you ever do need to use it, at least you still have it at your disposal.
The platforms here are amazing.... it's uair heaven, and nair ***** anyone who thinks they can sit on the lower platform. The ideal position is right underneath the lowest platform. From here, you have complete control over the lower two platforms, you'll always be close enough to not get camped (since they can't camp you from the other sides of the statues), and if they get knocked onto one of the upper platforms, Din's will get them off real quick while they can't camp you back. Aerial approaches are also limited from the other character because of the lower platform. Drop-through uairs are sexy.
Because the bottom two platforms are stacked, walking off the top one into an fair/bair/nair can either get a kill (fair/bair) or start a combo (nair).
The walk-offs carry the same benefits and cautions as usual, except you can't be camped away from them because of the good ol' statues.
Jab the statues to refresh your moves, which is great for Zelda since her kill moves are plentiful and strong. The statues also extend hitboxes, so while this can leave you open if you whiff, committed aerial approaches from the opponent will fail once you have usmash out.... it'll last plenty long enough for them to have to fall into it. Staying around the statues for extended periods of time isn't a good idea, though.
Because the top two platforms slant up towards the middle, anyone up there is food for uair. They wanna drop through the platform? Uair up the butt. They wanna run/roll around? Uair up the butt. They wanna shield? Uair/Din's shield pressure. Their only good option is to jump off and try to time an airdodge through you, because most moves get beaten by uair. The real reason why it works so well on these particular platforms is that they can only go in one direction since the other way is a walk-off.
You can't get edgeguarded or gimped here because there's no ledge!
Short version:
- Campers can't effectively camp
- Zelda can take advantage of walk-offs with her powerful moves
- Jab statues to refresh moves (goes well with the above point)
- Ideal stage control point below the lowest platform
- Can't get gimped here, so bad recovery isn't a problem
- Nair/uair/Din's heaven
- Stacked platforms can give you surprise fair/bair KOs or nair combo-starts
- People stuck on one of the top two platforms will eat lots of free damage or a death
- Once they've above you, it's hard for them to touch the ground without taking lots of damage
CONS:
MrEh is right in that if your opponent has the lead, they can run away. However, if you position yourself underneath the lowest platform, it minimizes their approach options more than any other spot on this transformation does. If they wanna run around, guess what? Let them run around like an idiot unless you're really in danger of running out of time. If they're far away, use the advantage Din's has here (going through statues); if they're close, play extremely defensively and wait for any opportunity to get them above you, because once they're above you on this transformation, they're going to eat tons of damage before they get down if you can read them well.
Whiffing a move on the statues sucks and will probably get your punished. They're sort of close to the edge, too, so it could cost you a stock.
Walk-off shenanigans.
Like other characters, if you're stuck on one of the platforms, you can get ***** from underneath. However, a benefit Zelda has is that even though it's slow, FW can get you to the ground, and you have many directions to choose from. As long as you don't always FW straight down onto the ground, you can usually jump > FW to the bottom without getting too severely punished.
Short version:
- People can run away
- Walk-off deaths suck
- Whiffing on the statues will leave you very open, possibly to your death
- Getting stuck on the platforms is bad
Third Transformation (Tilting FD):
PROS:
It's a tilting FD with bumps. Similar to the slant on the first transformation, the bumps can make it hard for your opponent to DI out of dtilt strings and boost your usmash to help with followups. Other than that, the bump doesn't help much, but the dtilt thing is a pretty big plus.
The tilting helps in a similar way. If the stage is tilting up on their side, dtilts are easier to land in a row, and, yeah. Usmash followups from nair/dthrow/what have you.
Otherwise, it's like a smaller FD, so there's not much else to say. The smaller size helps Zelda keep close to her opponent, but the size difference isn't that helpful.
You can get some sexy SH uairs on this stage, though. You have to time it, but if you jump while the stage is tilting down underneath you, you can get a SH FF uair to hit where otherwise the hitbox wouldn't have time to come out. Hooray!
Also, dair (even the sourspot) can gimp people off-stage if you hit while the edge is tilting up.
Short version:
- Bump and tilting can aid dtilts and followups
- Smaller size keeps Zelda closer to her opponents
- Sexy surprise SH FF uair kills
- Sexy surprise dair gimps too!
CONS:
Tilting can **** recovery.
Camp from campers.
The bump can let some characters CG Zelda for one extra grab where they couldn't on a flat stage..... but that's extremely situational.
Characters:
BRING: Snake (grenade and mortar slide game are hindered), Fox, Falco, Wolf, Pikachu, Sonic, Pit, Ness, Lucas, Diddy, ICs, Falcon, Peach, Ivysaur, Samus, Sheik, ZSS, Jiggs (drill-rest interruption, go!)
DO NOT BRING: MK, Kirby, Bowser, Ike, Link, Marth, G&W if you can't see (the default color is annoyingly hard to keep track of), DK, Olimar
Overall:
I still think this stage is good for Zelda. It does not turn her into a good character (for people who might think I'm claiming that), and she still has a lot of the same problems she usually does, but if you learn the stage, you can work it to your advantage pretty well. The platforms are really well placed for her, and the level of stage control she has here, imo, is better than what you can expect on many other stages.
Aside from the last transformation, this stage favors grounded characters who like being under platforms. Zelda is a grounded character who likes being under platforms.
The main problem is getting used to the transformations and all the gimpy things here, like the lips on the first part, the transformations themselves, and the tilting on the last stage. But those things are not that bad, and once you learn how they work, you can work with them rather than complaining about them.
I give it an 7.5 or 8/10 as a Zelda stage.
I didn't read back over this for spelling or grammar or whatever, so if something needs clarification, let me know. I wrote it while talking to madd people on AIM, so I was sort of distracted.... @.@
Elaboration..... GO!!!
First Transformation (Roof):
PROS:
In some ways, I feel like the first transformation is one of the main reasons why Castle Siege is good for Zelda. The small size, platforms, and slants make it hard for traditional campers (Falco, Fox, Pikachu, etc.) to spam against you while also hindering their ability to run away. Zelda likes to push up on her opponents and keep them near her, and the first transformation is plenty cramped enough to aid you in that.
The platforms are also ideally placed, imo. Since Zelda doesn't approach aerially as much as other characters do, they help her more than they would another character. Full hopped/double jumped approaches become nearly impossible for other characters once you're safely camped beneath a platform. This cuts off your opponent's options to some degree, so if you know their character and know what their SH/ground approaches are, predicting how they'll come to you becomes much easier.
The platforms are also great for nairs & SH uairs, as always. Because the space is so cramped, I've knocked people from one platform to the other with nair (highly dependent on DI, mind you), then followed up with another nair.... it's too funny, lol. Walk-off bairs & fairs are also fun.
The slant in the middle can be a positive as well. If you dthrow with your back to the slant at low percentages, following up with usmash is slightly easier because of the shape of the stage. I dunno how to explain it.... basically, because the stage is higher on the other side of the slant, their DI'ing up won't matter as much because your usmash gets a vertical boost from the stage going upwards. This works for followups from jab, dash attack, and nair as well.
Dtilt is somewhat broken on the slant. If you catch them there, DI'ing away from it becomes a LOT harder for them.
The blastlines are close, so killing is easier. Uair kills are especially aided since they're easier to land here with the platforms arranged to your advantage. Moves that normally wouldn't kill (ftilt, bthrow, etc.) become more viable than usual.
Short version:
- Less space is good for Zelda
- Slant & platforms aid in avoiding camp
- Well-placed platforms are good for nair/uair/fair/bair
- Slant is beneficial for followups
- People die earlier, especially from uair, which is easier to land on this transformation
- Related to the above, this transformation gives Zelda more kill moves
- Dtilt on the slant is crazy good
CONS:
The ledges. Are stupid. Really, really stupid. They have lips that can catch you and make it **** near impossible to recover, but since we all play Zelda and have had to deal with her bad recovery for a long time now, good DI and recovery decisions will make the ledges a moot point. Just don't recover low. The good news is that the funky ledges screw with almost everyone, so it's more of a universal con than a Zelda-specific one.
Getting stuck on one of the platforms vs. certain characters can be a bad thing, but they're short enough that getting off is rarely a huge issue. As long as you don't miss a tech on one, platform **** shouldn't be a problem.
The small size means Zelda can die earlier as well, but her variety of kill moves makes this less of a problem for her than it is for other characters.
Also, large characters who excel in close-range combat where you actually want more space (ex: Bowser & Ike come to mind) may do better here.
Short version:
- Stupid ledges
- Zelda dies earlier too
- Getting stuck on the platforms can be bad
- Some bulky, longer-ranged characters may do better here than Zelda does
Transforming State ("Grey Stage"):
PROS:
Grabbing someone near one of the walk-offs at mid-high percentage pretty much spells their death. Same goes for fsmashes, dsmashes, etc. etc., but the same can be done to you, so be careful.
Other than that, it's just a flat stage. If you grab someone while the stage is changing, you'll automatically grab release during the actual point of transformation. I'm not sure if it's always an air release or not, but every time it's happened to me, I've air released. If you're quick enough (and depending on where the stage drops you), most people will be confused by the sudden release and give you an opportunity to dash-cancel a usmash on them (or dash attack or what have you).
Other notes on transformation shenanigans:
- When the stage transforms, the blastlines shrink similar to how they do on Delfino. Sending someone away with fsmash/usmash/throwing can kill them even if they look like they're not far enough.
- When the stage is going back to first transformation, STAY IN THE MIDDLE if you can, and try to send your opponent off to the sides. When it settles into the stage proper, they'll be off the edge and might get stage-gimped. I daired someone once right when the stage settled and got a spike because the floor had just disappeared. XD
Short version:
- Grabs & high knockback moves close to the walk-offs will get you early kills
- Grab releases during transformation often lead to free hits
- Transformation deaths and gimps can work in your favor if you stay aware
- Zelda can't get CG'd off the edges
CONS:
It's flat, so campers can try to take advantage of that. Luckily, this part doesn't last long, so don't focus on approaching.... just avoid as many projectiles as you can. Also, unless you're sure you can get the grab or fsmash near the edge, stay away from the walk-offs.
Short version:
- Campers can camp
- Walk-off/transformation deaths suck
Second Transformation (Statues):
PROS:
The stage everyone knows Castle Siege for.... the statues. This transformation is really pretty great for Zelda despite people saying LOLJOOCAN'TCAMP. The object isn't to camp here, it's to control the stage.
Speaking of camp, though, there are few projectiles that can go through the statues. Most people won't waste their time trying to break them down since the stage doesn't last forever, so you can pretty much count on them being there to stop incoming projectile spam. Plus for Zelda, since Din's goes through the statues, so if you ever do need to use it, at least you still have it at your disposal.
The platforms here are amazing.... it's uair heaven, and nair ***** anyone who thinks they can sit on the lower platform. The ideal position is right underneath the lowest platform. From here, you have complete control over the lower two platforms, you'll always be close enough to not get camped (since they can't camp you from the other sides of the statues), and if they get knocked onto one of the upper platforms, Din's will get them off real quick while they can't camp you back. Aerial approaches are also limited from the other character because of the lower platform. Drop-through uairs are sexy.
Because the bottom two platforms are stacked, walking off the top one into an fair/bair/nair can either get a kill (fair/bair) or start a combo (nair).
The walk-offs carry the same benefits and cautions as usual, except you can't be camped away from them because of the good ol' statues.
Jab the statues to refresh your moves, which is great for Zelda since her kill moves are plentiful and strong. The statues also extend hitboxes, so while this can leave you open if you whiff, committed aerial approaches from the opponent will fail once you have usmash out.... it'll last plenty long enough for them to have to fall into it. Staying around the statues for extended periods of time isn't a good idea, though.
Because the top two platforms slant up towards the middle, anyone up there is food for uair. They wanna drop through the platform? Uair up the butt. They wanna run/roll around? Uair up the butt. They wanna shield? Uair/Din's shield pressure. Their only good option is to jump off and try to time an airdodge through you, because most moves get beaten by uair. The real reason why it works so well on these particular platforms is that they can only go in one direction since the other way is a walk-off.
You can't get edgeguarded or gimped here because there's no ledge!
Short version:
- Campers can't effectively camp
- Zelda can take advantage of walk-offs with her powerful moves
- Jab statues to refresh moves (goes well with the above point)
- Ideal stage control point below the lowest platform
- Can't get gimped here, so bad recovery isn't a problem
- Nair/uair/Din's heaven
- Stacked platforms can give you surprise fair/bair KOs or nair combo-starts
- People stuck on one of the top two platforms will eat lots of free damage or a death
- Once they've above you, it's hard for them to touch the ground without taking lots of damage
CONS:
MrEh is right in that if your opponent has the lead, they can run away. However, if you position yourself underneath the lowest platform, it minimizes their approach options more than any other spot on this transformation does. If they wanna run around, guess what? Let them run around like an idiot unless you're really in danger of running out of time. If they're far away, use the advantage Din's has here (going through statues); if they're close, play extremely defensively and wait for any opportunity to get them above you, because once they're above you on this transformation, they're going to eat tons of damage before they get down if you can read them well.
Whiffing a move on the statues sucks and will probably get your punished. They're sort of close to the edge, too, so it could cost you a stock.
Walk-off shenanigans.
Like other characters, if you're stuck on one of the platforms, you can get ***** from underneath. However, a benefit Zelda has is that even though it's slow, FW can get you to the ground, and you have many directions to choose from. As long as you don't always FW straight down onto the ground, you can usually jump > FW to the bottom without getting too severely punished.
Short version:
- People can run away
- Walk-off deaths suck
- Whiffing on the statues will leave you very open, possibly to your death
- Getting stuck on the platforms is bad
Third Transformation (Tilting FD):
PROS:
It's a tilting FD with bumps. Similar to the slant on the first transformation, the bumps can make it hard for your opponent to DI out of dtilt strings and boost your usmash to help with followups. Other than that, the bump doesn't help much, but the dtilt thing is a pretty big plus.
The tilting helps in a similar way. If the stage is tilting up on their side, dtilts are easier to land in a row, and, yeah. Usmash followups from nair/dthrow/what have you.
Otherwise, it's like a smaller FD, so there's not much else to say. The smaller size helps Zelda keep close to her opponent, but the size difference isn't that helpful.
You can get some sexy SH uairs on this stage, though. You have to time it, but if you jump while the stage is tilting down underneath you, you can get a SH FF uair to hit where otherwise the hitbox wouldn't have time to come out. Hooray!
Also, dair (even the sourspot) can gimp people off-stage if you hit while the edge is tilting up.
Short version:
- Bump and tilting can aid dtilts and followups
- Smaller size keeps Zelda closer to her opponents
- Sexy surprise SH FF uair kills
- Sexy surprise dair gimps too!
CONS:
Tilting can **** recovery.
Camp from campers.
The bump can let some characters CG Zelda for one extra grab where they couldn't on a flat stage..... but that's extremely situational.
Characters:
BRING: Snake (grenade and mortar slide game are hindered), Fox, Falco, Wolf, Pikachu, Sonic, Pit, Ness, Lucas, Diddy, ICs, Falcon, Peach, Ivysaur, Samus, Sheik, ZSS, Jiggs (drill-rest interruption, go!)
DO NOT BRING: MK, Kirby, Bowser, Ike, Link, Marth, G&W if you can't see (the default color is annoyingly hard to keep track of), DK, Olimar
Overall:
I still think this stage is good for Zelda. It does not turn her into a good character (for people who might think I'm claiming that), and she still has a lot of the same problems she usually does, but if you learn the stage, you can work it to your advantage pretty well. The platforms are really well placed for her, and the level of stage control she has here, imo, is better than what you can expect on many other stages.
Aside from the last transformation, this stage favors grounded characters who like being under platforms. Zelda is a grounded character who likes being under platforms.
The main problem is getting used to the transformations and all the gimpy things here, like the lips on the first part, the transformations themselves, and the tilting on the last stage. But those things are not that bad, and once you learn how they work, you can work with them rather than complaining about them.
I give it an 7.5 or 8/10 as a Zelda stage.
I didn't read back over this for spelling or grammar or whatever, so if something needs clarification, let me know. I wrote it while talking to madd people on AIM, so I was sort of distracted.... @.@