Zelda's Stage Discussion #10 -- Battlefield!

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

BRING: Snake

you SAY bring snake, but the first form makes it really hard to get away from him when he's spacing Ftilts.... or approach him if he's camping on te left side with nades and ftilts.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's a pretty good break down.

 

[KayLo!]

you SAY bring snake, but the first form makes it really hard to get away from him when he's spacing Ftilts.... or approach him if he's camping on te left side with nades and ftilts.

Snake is a mixed bag on this stage, but I think with a good knowledge of the stage, Zelda can do better vs. him here than she does on other stages. Ftilt will always be a problem with Snake.... that's just how it goes. However, I really like the fact that he can't grenade camp as well as usual here (except on the last transformation -- and even then, the tilting can mess with his angles a bit), and his mortar sliding is cut down by a significant amount.

As long as you can keep note of where his explosives are on the dark background, you definitely shouldn't do any worse than normal here. Get him above you or onto a platform, and you've got him in a very bad position, because with the way the platforms are set up on Siege, there's often only one direction you can really go without getting further platform ***** (upper-lower platform on second transformation), walking off the stage (upper platforms on the second transformation), or going off-stage (platforms on first transformation).

I hope that last part made sense.

 

[sniperworm]

Snake is a mixed bag on this stage, but I think with a good knowledge of the stage, Zelda can do better vs. him here than she does on other stages. Ftilt will always be a problem with Snake.... that's just how it goes. However, I really like the fact that he can't grenade camp as well as usual here (except on the last transformation -- and even then, the tilting can mess with his angles a bit), and his mortar sliding is cut down by a significant amount.

As long as you can keep note of where his explosives are on the dark background, you definitely shouldn't do any worse than normal here. Get him above you or onto a platform, and you've got him in a very bad position, because with the way the platforms are set up on Siege, there's often only one direction you can really go without getting further platform ***** (upper-lower platform on second transformation), walking off the stage (upper platforms on the second transformation), or going off-stage (platforms on first transformation).

I hope that last part made sense.

lol, Zeldabunz, too good.

Anyway, I definitely disagree with taking Snake here. The first transformation gives Snake a huge advantage. Snake outcamps Zelda here, no way around it. The slope means that approaching Snake is almost impossible if he's on the left side and approaching is still more difficult than normal if he's on the right (curse that platform). He can still camp very effectively from the right side of the stage (he can toss/drop grenades on the slope and let them bounce down to you or he can toss grenades onto the platform on the left side). Zelda in return simply cannot camp with Din's because there's not enough space for her to use. Not to mention that Snake's jab, Ftilt, and Utilt are basically impenetrable walls here.

The second transformation is similarly poor. The statues stop his grenades, but that doesn't stop him from camping with them (but it does hinder him a little). However, if Snake is bothered by the statues, he is the best character at destroying them. His explosives can destroy the statues with little commitment from Snake himself, making it virtually unpunishable (and his explosives are powerful so they take down the pillars in a hurry). While Zelda can refresh her moves on the pillars, remember that Snake can also do the same (but his jab is faster than Zelda's so he can refresh faster, not to mention that his grenades will also help him to refresh his moves). Snake also has the option to camp the upper platforms if he so chooses. Snake can't be effectively pressured from underneath the way that most characters can be because of his grenades and C4 (plus his Utilt hits an area below him through platforms as well). Not to mention that challenging him up there is risking getting caught by the most devastating tech chase in Brawl (his Dthrow on a platform). Expect to take a lot of damage if you get grabbed on one of those platforms (you basically lose a stock if you get grabbed on the platforms in the first transformation). I normally wouldn't point this out, but platforms are such a dominate feature in this transformation that it's important to recognize.

The third transformation is like FD, so it's bad against Snake, I shouldn't have to explain.

I'd also say not to take ROB here. He'll camp you all day long on this stage and there's even less that you can do about it than normal.

I'm not sure why you would take Sonic here. The first transformation isn't all that great for Sonic, but the second and third transformations look like exactly what Sonic wants in a stage.

This would actually be someplace that I might consider taking Marth to...

 

[KayLo!]

lol, Zeldabunz, too good.

Anyway, I definitely disagree with taking Snake here. The first transformation gives Snake a huge advantage. Snake outcamps Zelda here, no way around it. The slope means that approaching Snake is almost impossible if he's on the left side and approaching is still more difficult than normal if he's on the right (curse that platform). He can still camp very effectively from the right side of the stage (he can toss/drop grenades on the slope and let them bounce down to you or he can toss grenades onto the platform on the left side). Zelda in return simply cannot camp with Din's because there's not enough space for her to use. Not to mention that Snake's jab, Ftilt, and Utilt are basically impenetrable walls here.

The second transformation is similarly poor. The statues stop his grenades, but that doesn't stop him from camping with them (but it does hinder him a little). However, if Snake is bothered by the statues, he is the best character at destroying them. His explosives can destroy the statues with little commitment from Snake himself, making it virtually unpunishable (and his explosives are powerful so they take down the pillars in a hurry). While Zelda can refresh her moves on the pillars, remember that Snake can also do the same (but his jab is faster than Zelda's so he can refresh faster, not to mention that his grenades will also help him to refresh his moves). Snake also has the option to camp the upper platforms if he so chooses. Snake can't be effectively pressured from underneath the way that most characters can be because of his grenades and C4 (plus his Utilt hits an area below him through platforms as well). Not to mention that challenging him up there is risking getting caught by the most devastating tech chase in Brawl (his Dthrow on a platform). Expect to take a lot of damage if you get grabbed on one of those platforms (you basically lose a stock if you get grabbed on the platforms in the first transformation). I normally wouldn't point this out, but platforms are such a dominate feature in this transformation that it's important to recognize.

The third transformation is like FD, so it's bad against Snake, I shouldn't have to explain.

I'd also say not to take ROB here. He'll camp you all day long on this stage and there's even less that you can do about it than normal.

I'm not sure why you would take Sonic here. The first transformation isn't all that great for Sonic, but the second and third transformations look like exactly what Sonic wants in a stage.

This would actually be someplace that I might consider taking Marth to...

Points taken on Snake; however, speaking purely from my own experience, I tend to do better against Snake on this stage than I do on every other one I've tried, so maybe it's a personal thing (as stage choices usually are).

As far as being outcamped by him on the first transformation, I never try to outcamp Snake, so being in a position to Din's him is never really a point for me. What I do like is being close enough to punish his throw animation, which is 21+ frames depending on which kind of throw he uses.... he wants to chuck a grenade at me? Zelda has a slow grab, but its range means that if you're somewhat close, even she can run a short distance and dash grab him. Her grab extends based on the position of the opponent's hurtbox.... since Snake leans forward when he throws, he gets sort of sucked into her hands even where he wouldn't get grabbed by standing upright.

Or you can jump > airdodge to catch a grenade from mid-air (or just pick them up off the ground) and throw it back at him..... on a large stage, he'd have a lot of places to run, but on the cramped first transformation, his options are severely limited. Playing with his nades is dangerous, mind you..... you have to know what you're doing, especially if he likes to throw cooked ones, but if you spend a little time learning exactly what he can do with them, you realize that they can be used against him. Sometimes. (Like I said, you really need to know what you're doing before you attempt this.)

I will give you that this is harder if he's on the left side. In that case, you may just have to wait it out, and the next time this transformation comes around, make sure he's not on the left part of the screen (or if he is, make it so he'll reappear off-stage).

His dthrow on platforms is deadly, but I think everyone pretty much knows to avoid getting grabbed on a small platform against Snake. It's no different than avoiding it on BF or PS1 or any other stage with similar features.

I have yet to be effectively camped by a Snake on the second transformation..... there's just too much room, and if he wants to waste time breaking the statues, that's free Din's damage for Zelda. Even without them, the stage is wide as ****, and grenades aren't exactly fast or hard to avoid at a distance, imo.

By upper platforms, do you mean the weird canvas ones at the top? If he's camping you from there, there's no reason to jump up to him. Just use Din's -- Din's glide, even, so it'll be harder for him to hit you with nades while you're stuck in the animation. He can't throw grenades and block at the same time.

Third transformation, yeah, it's basically as bad as FD. The tilting and the bump do help a minimal amount, but he probably has the usual advantage here.

I dunno. I like this stage vs. Snake (considering it'll always be a **** matchup), but I'm not saying everyone has to agree, hehe. I'd advise everyone to learn it, though, and at least try it out. A bonus is that for some reason, a lot of people don't bother to learn how to fight on Castle Siege..... but transformation tricks are too fun.

@your other points:

- I'm meh about ROB here. His laser is still annoying, but his Gyro gets kind of ****ed by the statues and the tilting on the last transformation (if he uses it from the ground). Other than that, yeah, there are probably better stages to take him to. I don't think this one is horrible, though.

- Sonic? I dunno, I like taking Sonic here. The first transformation is obviously bad for him. The second one.... I mean, he can run around like a fool along the bottom all he wants, but the platforms block his spring tricks (I dunno why a Sonic would purposely put himself above Zelda anyway.....), and he can't really do much else to take advantage of the platforms like we can. Third transformation..... again, I like the tilting, sue me.

- Marth's range and platform game is just way too strong here. If you end up in the air for whatever reason (your own mistake, transformation shenanigans, whatever), he has a really easy time juggling you between the platforms.

 

[sniperworm]

Points taken on Snake; however, speaking purely from my own experience, I tend to do better against Snake on this stage than I do on every other one I've tried, so maybe it's a personal thing (as stage choices usually are).

As far as being outcamped by him on the first transformation, I never try to outcamp Snake, so being in a position to Din's him is never really a point for me. What I do like is being close enough to punish his throw animation, which is 21+ frames depending on which kind of throw he uses.... he wants to chuck a grenade at me? Zelda has a slow grab, but its range means that if you're somewhat close, even she can run a short distance and dash grab him. Her grab extends based on the position of the opponent's hurtbox.... since Snake leans forward when he throws, he gets sort of sucked into her hands even where he wouldn't get grabbed by standing upright.

Or you can jump > airdodge to catch a grenade from mid-air (or just pick them up off the ground) and throw it back at him..... on a large stage, he'd have a lot of places to run, but on the cramped first transformation, his options are severely limited. Playing with his nades is dangerous, mind you..... you have to know what you're doing, especially if he likes to throw cooked ones, but if you spend a little time learning exactly what he can do with them, you realize that they can be used against him. Sometimes. (Like I said, you really need to know what you're doing before you attempt this.)

I will give you that this is harder if he's on the left side. In that case, you may just have to wait it out, and the next time this transformation comes around, make sure he's not on the left part of the screen (or if he is, make it so he'll reappear off-stage).

His dthrow on platforms is deadly, but I think everyone pretty much knows to avoid getting grabbed on a small platform against Snake. It's no different than avoiding it on BF or PS1 or any other stage with similar features.

I have yet to be effectively camped by a Snake on the second transformation..... there's just too much room, and if he wants to waste time breaking the statues, that's free Din's damage for Zelda. Even without them, the stage is wide as ****, and grenades aren't exactly fast or hard to avoid at a distance, imo.

By upper platforms, do you mean the weird canvas ones at the top? If he's camping you from there, there's no reason to jump up to him. Just use Din's -- Din's glide, even, so it'll be harder for him to hit you with nades while you're stuck in the animation. He can't throw grenades and block at the same time.

Third transformation, yeah, it's basically as bad as FD. The tilting and the bump do help a minimal amount, but he probably has the usual advantage here.

I dunno. I like this stage vs. Snake (considering it'll always be a **** matchup), but I'm not saying everyone has to agree, hehe. I'd advise everyone to learn it, though, and at least try it out. A bonus is that for some reason, a lot of people don't bother to learn how to fight on Castle Siege..... but transformation tricks are too fun.

@your other points:

- I'm meh about ROB here. His laser is still annoying, but his Gyro gets kind of ****ed by the statues and the tilting on the last transformation (if he uses it from the ground). Other than that, yeah, there are probably better stages to take him to. I don't think this one is horrible, though.

- Sonic? I dunno, I like taking Sonic here. The first transformation is obviously bad for him. The second one.... I mean, he can run around like a fool along the bottom all he wants, but the platforms block his spring tricks (I dunno why a Sonic would purposely put himself above Zelda anyway.....), and he can't really do much else to take advantage of the platforms like we can. Third transformation..... again, I like the tilting, sue me.

- Marth's range and platform game is just way too strong here. If you end up in the air for whatever reason (your own mistake, transformation shenanigans, whatever), he has a really easy time juggling you between the platforms.

You don't have to tell me about catching and using opponent's items, lol. I use Diddy for fun and I incorporate those elements into my other characters if I get my hands on an item. It's fun to Z catch nades or insta-throw them from airdodges but it's really not effective since Snake can just make the grenade instantly stop whenever he wants. Glide tossing is fun too, in fact, I had some glide toss shenanigans in my tournament match this past weekend against a Peach.

Snakes can do a lot more with nades then just toss them or shield drop and toss them...

If you use Din's while Snake is trying to destroy the statues, all your doing is helping him destroy the statue (hitting Snake with Din's is basically impossible if he only commits to using explosives to kill the statues).

I mentioned the techchase because you mentioned pressuring people while they're on the platform. Unless you only pressure with Uair and Din's (which will basically never hit because they're too slow), you risk getting grabbed/Utilted by attacking him.

I've seen Snake camp the platforms against DDD's on Castle Siege to avoid being CG'ed to death and they could do a similar thing against Zelda. Granted nothing is directly forcing you to approach, but stalling gets you nowhere since Snake can stall out Zelda on the first transformation and he easily beats Zelda on the last transformation.

I also feel that Zelda's biggest advantage on Snake is when she gets him offstage. This is not possible in the second transformation and unlikely in the first since he so completely walls Zelda there.

I guess I prefer stages where approaching Snake is more of a possibility since it'll eventually have to be done.

ROB is bad because it's harder to get him into a bad spot. You can't really approach on the first transformation, the second transformation is huge making it obscenely hard to trap him, and the third transformation promotes camping with its lack of platforms.

Sonic is not someone you'd want to take either because there's too much space (except the first transformation, but nothing forces him to approach you there). The second transformation is a great place for a character that relies on baiting. The statues make people lag more than they normally would, the large area leaves lots of room for movement, and the high platforms provide convenient escapes even if you do manage to trap him. Sonic covers ground significantly faster than Zelda both horizontally and vertically meaning he can pretty much run around and bait forever and he'll never get cornered and be forced to actually fight you. The third transformation is large enough that he has space to move around and do what he wants and the lack of platforms means that once he gets you in the air you'll be falling right back into his waiting arms, a lot.

Zelda needs space or cover from the stage to defend herself from Marth. Castle Siege gives you one of these in every transformation. Getting juggled by Marth is nothing new, he has a really easy time juggling Zelda over flat ground as well. A key difference is that edgeguarding is almost non-existent on the second transformation which is a huge boon for Zelda. This doesn't mean that Zelda has the advantage, but it helps to even things out a little.

 

[KayLo!]

Snakes can do a lot more with nades then just toss them or shield drop and toss them...

Trufax. I didn't mean to imply otherwise or that his nades aren't a problem on this stage..... Snake will always outcamp Zelda, and his explosives/tilts/everything about him will always beat Zelda despite the stage.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that in my own opinion, Castle Siege works better than other stages against Snake. The first transformation keeps you close enough to punish some of his grenade options, which is more than can be said for most other stages. It somewhat hinders his grenade game in general, which is more than can be said for most other stages. It somewhat hinders his mortar sliding, which has always been a problem I've had in the Zelda vs. Snake MU, so for me, personally, that's a huge plus for this stage.

No stage is going to open up approach options on Snake, so that's not how I compare them (as far as Snake goes). I compare them based on what can change, so the fact that his camping is hurt somewhat and Zelda's amazing under-platform game can shine here are why I consider CS good for her in this MU. On the other side, I don't see any big advantages that Snake really gains on us that he wouldn't have on another stage.

If you use Din's while Snake is trying to destroy the statues, all your doing is helping him destroy the statue (hitting Snake with Din's is basically impossible if he only commits to using explosives to kill the statues).

I don't mind destroying the statues if it gets me free damage. Even when he's exploding things, Snake still has cooldown frames like everybody else. Take advantage of them. Din's isn't the best move by far, but it's still powerful, and Snake's fat..... any large chunks of damage are more than welcome.

I mentioned the techchase because you mentioned pressuring people while they're on the platform. Unless you only pressure with Uair and Din's (which will basically never hit because they're too slow), you risk getting grabbed/Utilted by attacking him.

There's also nair. Besides that, it's still shield pressure if they don't hit for damage.... if Snake wants to spotdodge instead, go back to nair. I lost track of which platform(s) we're talking about, so I'll just leave it at that.

Oh, also, uair pushes people to the side a pretty good distance. If they're shielding and you hit, there's a good chance that they'll fall off during shield stun -- if not from the first uair then from the second one since the platforms are so small. Either way, it basically forces him to get off the platform..... I don't know anyone who'd keep hanging around right above Zelda on one.

On Siege, once they have to get off the platform, I feel as though their options are limited compared to the platforms on other stages because of the way they're set up. I mentioned that somewhere in my second to last post, I think. ><

I've seen Snake camp the platforms against DDD's on Castle Siege to avoid being CG'ed to death and they could do a similar thing against Zelda. Granted nothing is directly forcing you to approach, but stalling gets you nowhere since Snake can stall out Zelda on the first transformation and he easily beats Zelda on the last transformation.

DDD also has a much harder time avoiding explosions since he's huge as hell, but I get what you're saying. I still don't think it's any worse than other stages, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

I also feel that Zelda's biggest advantage on Snake is when she gets him offstage. This is not possible in the second transformation and unlikely in the first since he so completely walls Zelda there.

It's hard to get in on Snake on the first transformation, but I guess I'm still not seeing how it's any worse than on any other stage with platforms. Besides, I've done my fair share of risky nade approaches to get Snake off-stage, but those are situational and not recommended. x.o Just saying, though..... getting blown up and getting an fair out of the deal isn't so bad on a stage with such close sidelines.

Second transformation/transforming state: There're no ledges, but landing a high-knockback move near a walk-off is just as good as edgeguarding. Din's can potentially kill people chillin' on the top platforms, especially during transformation, and a well-timed fsmash/dsmash/dash attack/throw near the edge = dead Snake. ....Just don't get ftilted or roll into an fsmash.

Tilting FD is tilting FD. Same advantages as always, but if you're really brave, you can knock him underneath the stage while he's recovering low. It'll majorly eff up his recovery.

I guess I prefer stages where approaching Snake is more of a possibility since it'll eventually have to be done.

Ah, well, I normally wait for/bait a mistake or laggy move and punish (in-between being retardedly aggressive ) rather than straight-up try to approach, so maybe our playstyles just work differently, lol.

If Snake plays 100% perfectly in his camp game, then I can accept your point that the first transformation allows him wall Zelda. However, that depends on him getting situated in the proper spot in the first place, and while he's busy trying to do that, I think there are a lot of points on the stage where Zelda can take advantage of the setup. I also think that if you have the nuts to play the grenade game with him, your chances of breaking through are greatly increased.

Stage picks always seem largely player-specific, though.... so I'm not surprised that we disagree.

ROB is bad because it's harder to get him into a bad spot. You can't really approach on the first transformation, the second transformation is huge making it obscenely hard to trap him, and the third transformation promotes camping with its lack of platforms.

I can see your point here. I haven't really played too many ROBs on CS, which is why I didn't list him in the first place, hehe.

Sonic is not someone you'd want to take either because there's too much space (except the first transformation, but nothing forces him to approach you there). The second transformation is a great place for a character that relies on baiting. The statues make people lag more than they normally would, the large area leaves lots of room for movement, and the high platforms provide convenient escapes even if you do manage to trap him. Sonic covers ground significantly faster than Zelda both horizontally and vertically meaning he can pretty much run around and bait forever and he'll never get cornered and be forced to actually fight you. The third transformation is large enough that he has space to move around and do what he wants and the lack of platforms means that once he gets you in the air you'll be falling right back into his waiting arms, a lot.

I actually like the way the statues lag, lol. If you whiff, he'll punish you either way, statues or not, since he's madd quick, so just.... try not to miss. =X

The space issue is meh to me, because Sonic is always fast as **** and running around like an idiot. (He's so annoying.... !!!) But out of all the legal stages, the only ones that're really going to hinder that are BF, Lylat, RC, and Brinstar, most of which aren't really Zelda-friendly.

Looking at the list of available stages, I'd rather take Sonic here than any other stage other than BF, but again, that's my personal opinion.

Zelda needs space or cover from the stage to defend herself from Marth. Castle Siege gives you one of these in every transformation. Getting juggled by Marth is nothing new, he has a really easy time juggling Zelda over flat ground as well. A key difference is that edgeguarding is almost non-existent on the second transformation which is a huge boon for Zelda. This doesn't mean that Zelda has the advantage, but it helps to even things out a little.

Zelda doesn't really get cover from the stage at any point.... the first transformation is too cramped for my tastes, and you're fairly limited to the ground, since if you get on a platform, that's just ******** vs. Marth. Even if you're under a platform, Marth has a sword and plenty of SH options, and like you said vs. Snake, the space is too small to Din's. I dunno. Feels a little too claustrophic vs. Marth to me, especially since he's so much faster.

Second transformation isn't so bad, I guess, because you do have space to move around.... but again, you're pretty limited to being on the bottom level. I do think Zelda has a better walk-off game than Marth does, but he can still pull some grab release and fthrow tricks off the edge where you can't see very well.

I dunno. I'm less adamant about this one, but I don't particularly like taking him here. I prefer flat stages vs. Martha.

 

[sniperworm]

No stage is going to open up approach options on Snake, so that's not how I compare them (as far as Snake goes). I compare them based on what can change, so the fact that his camping is hurt somewhat and Zelda's amazing under-platform game can shine here are why I consider CS good for her in this MU. On the other side, I don't see any big advantages that Snake really gains on us that he wouldn't have on another stage.

What he gains is that there's a platform above his head for the vast majority of the stage. This takes away the only thing that Zelda can hit his shield with that is difficult to punish - a crossup Nair. It also really hurts that the two states where Zelda has a massive advantage (Snake in the air above Zelda and Snake offstage recovering) are minimized on this stage.

I don't mind destroying the statues if it gets me free damage. Even when he's exploding things, Snake still has cooldown frames like everybody else. Take advantage of them. Din's isn't the best move by far, but it's still powerful, and Snake's fat..... any large chunks of damage are more than welcome.

Actually, it won't net you any free damage. Din's has so much startup and travel time that there's absolutely no way that Snake should take damage from it while he's destroying the statues.

There's also nair. Besides that, it's still shield pressure if they don't hit for damage.... if Snake wants to spotdodge instead, go back to nair. I lost track of which platform(s) we're talking about, so I'll just leave it at that.

Nair will get you grabbed if you're not careful and will get you Utilted if he expects it (like I said, it hits below the platform where he's standing...).

Oh, also, uair pushes people to the side a pretty good distance. If they're shielding and you hit, there's a good chance that they'll fall off during shield stun -- if not from the first uair then from the second one since the platforms are so small. Either way, it basically forces him to get off the platform..... I don't know anyone who'd keep hanging around right above Zelda on one.

Uair detonates grenades which will hit Zelda. He can also jump and detonate a C4 to hit you while you try to hit him (or set a C4 if he doesn't have one). All in all, sharking Snake is unlike doing it to any other character (which is a big part of why Snake is good against MK on Halberd).

On Siege, once they have to get off the platform, I feel as though their options are limited compared to the platforms on other stages because of the way they're set up. I mentioned that somewhere in my second to last post, I think. ><

DDD also has a much harder time avoiding explosions since he's huge as hell, but I get what you're saying. I still don't think it's any worse than other stages, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Okay, fair enough.

It's hard to get in on Snake on the first transformation, but I guess I'm still not seeing how it's any worse than on any other stage with platforms. Besides, I've done my fair share of risky nade approaches to get Snake off-stage, but those are situational and not recommended. x.o Just saying, though..... getting blown up and getting an fair out of the deal isn't so bad on a stage with such close sidelines.

As I said in the first post, the platform configuration takes away the only semi-safe approach that Zelda has on block against Snake (a crossup Nair). It's a pretty big deal when he can defend against everything else by blocking and easily punishing (or spotdodging Zelda's super slow grab on reaction as necessary).

Second transformation/transforming state: There're no ledges, but landing a high-knockback move near a walk-off is just as good as edgeguarding. Din's can potentially kill people chillin' on the top platforms, especially during transformation, and a well-timed fsmash/dsmash/dash attack/throw near the edge = dead Snake. ....Just don't get ftilted or roll into an fsmash.

Um, Snake is the king of fast, high-knockback moves. It's a lot more likely that Zelda will be the victim of an unfortunately walkoff KO.

Tilting FD is tilting FD. Same advantages as always, but if you're really brave, you can knock him underneath the stage while he's recovering low. It'll majorly eff up his recovery.

Too true. However, good Snakes generally won't get put in this position where this is possible. That and the same could be said for almost any stage.

Ah, well, I normally wait for/bait a mistake or laggy move and punish (in-between being retardedly aggressive ) rather than straight-up try to approach, so maybe our playstyles just work differently, lol.

I'm pretty sure the way that you play the matchup is the same way that all Zeldas generally play the matchup (since Snake will basically beat you into the ground if you try to just straight-up approach).

If Snake plays 100% perfectly in his camp game, then I can accept your point that the first transformation allows him wall Zelda. However, that depends on him getting situated in the proper spot in the first place, and while he's busy trying to do that, I think there are a lot of points on the stage where Zelda can take advantage of the setup. I also think that if you have the nuts to play the grenade game with him, your chances of breaking through are greatly increased.

Stage picks always seem largely player-specific, though.... so I'm not surprised that we disagree.

Fighting back with his grenades will discourage Snakes from camping, similar to how camping back with Din's can help to get Snake to approach. However, Snake should be used this sort of thing and able to handle it.

As far as stage CPs being player specific, I definitely agree that they are.

I can see your point here. I haven't really played too many ROBs on CS, which is why I didn't list him in the first place, hehe.

Neither have I actually.

I actually like the way the statues lag, lol. If you whiff, he'll punish you either way, statues or not, since he's madd quick, so just.... try not to miss. =X

The space issue is meh to me, because Sonic is always fast as **** and running around like an idiot. (He's so annoying.... !!!) But out of all the legal stages, the only ones that're really going to hinder that are BF, Lylat, RC, and Brinstar, most of which aren't really Zelda-friendly.

Looking at the list of available stages, I'd rather take Sonic here than any other stage other than BF, but again, that's my personal opinion.

BF is a good stage against Sonic. I'm not convinced that this stage is any better than a neutral against Sonic, that being said, I could see picking this over a neutral for personal reasons. However, listing Sonic in the "bring" category implies that this stage is better against him than normal, which I don't feel is the case.

Zelda doesn't really get cover from the stage at any point.... the first transformation is too cramped for my tastes, and you're fairly limited to the ground, since if you get on a platform, that's just ******** vs. Marth. Even if you're under a platform, Marth has a sword and plenty of SH options, and like you said vs. Snake, the space is too small to Din's. I dunno. Feels a little too claustrophic vs. Marth to me, especially since he's so much faster.

She gets cover from the platforms on the first transformation. It limits the angles that Marth can approach from which makes it easier to intercept him.

Second transformation isn't so bad, I guess, because you do have space to move around.... but again, you're pretty limited to being on the bottom level. I do think Zelda has a better walk-off game than Marth does, but he can still pull some grab release and fthrow tricks off the edge where you can't see very well.

To be fair, Marth is similarly limited to the ground. It's basically suicide for either character to willingly hang out on the platforms while the other one is on the ground.

I dunno. I'm less adamant about this one, but I don't particularly like taking him here. I prefer flat stages vs. Martha.

I'm less particular about this one as well. I just think that he shouldn't be someone where you wouldn't consider this stage (aka he's not a "bring" or "do not bring").

God lord, multi-quoting takes forever, lol.

 

[MrEh]

There's no reason to take your opponents to Castle Siege when you can just take them to Rainbow Cruise. lol

 

[KayLo!]

Sniperworm, I don't think we're ever going to agree on the Snake thing, lol. That being said, I'm going to try to make time today to play one of my friends who seconds Snake.... hopefully our schedules allow us to get in a few good matches.

I'm still pretty firm in my opinion based on my past experiences, but I'm going to take into account everything you've said and see how it goes. I'll ask him to camp me extra extra hardcore.

If I play him (and probably even if I don't), I'll be back by tonight/tomorrow morning with a new post..... and diagrams, if I need to do it!

(You haven't seen my artistic diagrammatical -- yeah, I just made that word up -- explanation skills yet!!!)

EDIT:

On the Sonic thing: I still say bring him here. I really feel like this stage is better than every other stage vs. him except for BF, which could be banned. (Not sure which stage(s) Sonics tend to ban, but I wouldn't be surprised if one banned BF vs. Zelda.)

On the Marth thing: Really not feeling him on this stage as far as my own preferences go, but I can agree with him being more of a neutral character overall rather than a "Bring" or "Do Not Bring."

I hope you realize that at HSI, we're gonna have some epic Castle Siege battles. <3

 

[sniperworm]

Sniperworm, I don't think we're ever going to agree on the Snake thing, lol. That being said, I'm going to try to make time today to play one of my friends who seconds Snake.... hopefully our schedules allow us to get in a few good matches.

I'm still pretty firm in my opinion based on my past experiences, but I'm going to take into account everything you've said and see how it goes. I'll ask him to camp me extra extra hardcore.

Well, we don't have to agree, we can both just do what works for us. My overall approach to smash is radically different from a typical smasher, so that may be why our opinions differ.

As far as camping "extra hard" goes, isn't that what Snake should always be doing against Zelda, lol?

If I play him (and probably even if I don't), I'll be back by tonight/tomorrow morning with a new post..... and diagrams, if I need to do it!

(You haven't seen my artistic diagrammatical -- yeah, I just made that word up -- explanation skills yet!!!)

Do whatever you feel is necessary to change my mind. I want to believe that Zelda can do better against Snake somewhere, but I currently don't see why CS would be that place.

EDIT:

On the Sonic thing: I still say bring him here. I really feel like this stage is better than every other stage vs. him except for BF, which could be banned. (Not sure which stage(s) Sonics tend to ban, but I wouldn't be surprised if one banned BF vs. Zelda.)

On the Marth thing: Really not feeling him on this stage as far as my own preferences go, but I can agree with him being more of a neutral character overall rather than a "Bring" or "Do Not Bring."

I really don't like fighting Sonic on that second transformation but if you feel that the first transformation makes up for it then that's up to you.

I hope you realize that at HSI, we're gonna have some epic Castle Siege battles. <3

We can definitely play when you come down to Hawaii. I'm planning on hanging out at Jon's house most of the days you OoS people are here (after I finish work though) so I'm sure we'll get plenty of chances. I'm honestly very interested in playing all of you so I can witness first-hand how good you really are.

 

[MrEh]

If you guys want to see if Castle Siege is good, I'll be happy to participate as well.


I can count the amount of times I've used Snake on one hand, so let's see how well I do there. lol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If you guys want to see if Castle Siege is good, I'll be happy to participate as well.


I can count the amount of times I've used Snake on one hand, so let's see how well I do there. lol

I think castle seige IS a good Zelda stage..... but not against Snake. And he's a horrible matchup for Zelda anywhere.

 

[zeldspazz]

Castle Siege seems like a pretty good zelda stage, especially the second transformation since the statues usually stop against spamming which Zelda is horrible at getting around and Zelda can refresh her moves on them. On the first one the low end can stop against some spamming, but a good opponent could probably get around it pretty easily, and if you pressure them onto the platforms they can set up for some nair and lightning kicks. The only thing the troubles me in the first transformation is the little lip under the left edge, every once in a while i get stuck under there trying to recover, but I'm a noob so most people probably don't have trouble with this =P. The third transformation feels like final destination to me, because its flat but it has no lip, I'm not sure how Zelda does there but I'm guessing not well, so I'm not gonna get into that one. Maybe you can finish the battle before it gets there if its a bad stage for her. Just my 2 cents.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's cool Pokemon Stadium 1 for the next stage discussion?

 

[KayLo!]

PS1 sounds good if we haven't done it already. I <3 janky stages.

Sniper, I never got to play my Snake friend over these past few days, so I guess we're just gonna have to disagree, because I'm leaving for the weekend and don't have time to multiquote again, lol. (It really does take madd long.... @.@) By the time I get back, I'm sure this thread'll be on another stage, so, yeah.

*waves white flag*

 

[sniperworm]

PS1 sounds good if we haven't done it already. I <3 janky stages.

PS1 isn't really a janky stage, it's starter/counterpick right? Either way, I agree that PS1 is a good stage to discuss since it's fairly common.

Sniper, I never got to play my Snake friend over these past few days, so I guess we're just gonna have to disagree, because I'm leaving for the weekend and don't have time to multiquote again, lol. (It really does take madd long.... @.@) By the time I get back, I'm sure this thread'll be on another stage, so, yeah.

*waves white flag*

*waves white flag back*

A truce it is then. Enjoy the long weekend!

(gah, why do I have to work tomorrow...)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

PS1 sounds good if we haven't done it already. I <3 janky stages.

Sniper, I never got to play my Snake friend over these past few days, so I guess we're just gonna have to disagree, because I'm leaving for the weekend and don't have time to multiquote again, lol. (It really does take madd long.... @.@) By the time I get back, I'm sure this thread'll be on another stage, so, yeah.

*waves white flag*

PS1 is more legit than Pirate Ship, Frigate, and norfair. PS2 was discussed which is awkward.

 

[Ochobobo]

Soo... PS1 now? Alrighty.

I love when it transforms into the Mountain version. The cliff on the left hand side is good for Zelda, provided you're on the bottom. You'll probably have to bait the opponent into following you down there though. All of Zelda's most powerful attacks (except sweetspotted kicks) attack above her, and those'll be your only options when (IF) the opponent approaches you down there.

The middle section too has a narrow passageway and makes it pretty easy to land up-air/smash/tilt attacks when the opponent follows you down there.

What's more likely is you'll end up in a stalemate with the opponent just staying at the bottom of one of those two places. If he's in the middle though, you could cast Din's on him from the right. Too bad you can't follow up on it with anything though, unless he has enough damage to fly out of his shelter...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda can camp in the Rock and Fire transformations..... yay?

 

[Kataefi]

Alright then... pretend this says PS1 and everyone's free to talk about it =p

I'll update the OP tomorrow sometime

 

[JigglyZelda003]

PS1 has failtastic ledges and lots of fun areas.

one thing i really like about the stage is when it transitions and your standing on something like a platform you can get free Usmash "combos" because done right the last hit is cancelled and you can start it again.

the rock, fire, and windmill even give free places to hide :3

the first form platforms are placed nicely and don't give any real room for evasion on them.

the rock formation is like a free stalling area against quite a few characters w/ two spots to hide, one against the like of Zamus. even allows for some attempted camping w/ Dins in the middle w/ a shield.

inside windmill=**** zone

i'm not good at goind into detail so i think i'll stop here and others can fill-in/correct w/e, but i like the stage alot

 

[zeldspazz]

the rock, fire, and windmill even give free places to hide :3

the first form platforms are placed nicely and don't give any real room for evasion on them.

the rock formation is like a free stalling area against quite a few characters w/ two spots to hide, one against the like of Zamus. even allows for some attempted camping w/ Dins in the middle w/ a shield.

inside windmill=**** zone

^ I agree with this

But, if you suck like me, the ledges absolutely **** Zelda's recovery if your even slightly too low whule aiming for the sweetspot

 

[Kataefi]

updated the OP with summary of castle siege

keep those thoughts coming on PK1 please otherwise I'll have to use my final smash on you all, and you don't want to see that

 

[MrEh]

The ledges on this stage are ********.

That in itself makes me hate it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The ledges on this stage are ********.

That in itself makes me hate it.

agreed.... give PS1 the ledges of PS2 and it suddenly looks much better.

 

[sniperworm]

The only thing I like about PS1 is the water (windmill) transformation. As soon as that happens I run over to the water and repeatedly Dsmash to splash water around (yes I know you can do it in the stream for the grass transformation, but there's not enough space).

 

[JigglyZelda003]

The only thing I like about PS1 is the water (windmill) transformation. As soon as that happens I run over to the water and repeatedly Dsmash to splash water around (yes I know you can do it in the stream for the grass transformation, but there's not enough space).

that sounds like the perfect time to take epic pictures, we should have one of those for the sexy poses thread when we get to discussing Dsmash

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think everyone hates the ledges on this stage.

In any case, I never try to sweetspot the ledge unless I desperately have to, because I find Zelda will almost always miss.

But maybe that's just me?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I like it because some of the transformation means that you can just camp and avoid projectiles/ stall. The stage doesn't seem to bad for Zelda I don't see any reason not use this a CP. some of the tighter areas when the stage transforms makes it really hard to approach zelda. That Windmill is like **** if you get an Up smash in. Play the territory to your advantages and you should be fine.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I like it

Y'know what I don't like?

When G&W comes and semi spikes you off the edge at 0% then Zelda screws her recovery.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Y'know what I don't like?

When G&W comes and semi spikes you off the edge at 0% then Zelda screws her recovery.

I don't like G&W,

 

[zeldspazz]

In the Rock formation and the one with big tree (lol so bad with names) There are some places where you can chain NLs into each other for some decent damage.

Windmill is great if you both get caught in it, all her smashes are excellent in there

 

[Kataefi]

*maxrevive*

This thread has returned. What's the next stage people want to discuss? I suggest we look at some of the counters or counter/starters.

 

[zeldspazz]

Lets do Lylat so we can finish of the Starter/Counters

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Lets do Lylat so we can finish of the Starter/Counters

sounds reasonable/logical to me.

 

[Kataefi]

I'll update the OP soon and we'll move onto Lylat

 

[zeldspazz]

Do we have a write-up on PS1 though?

Edit: grammar error =o

 

[sniperworm]

*maxrevive*

This thread has returned. What's the next stage people want to discuss? I suggest we look at some of the counters or counter/starters.

Max revive, MAX REVIVE! We don't main a freaking pokemon. That should've been a fairy in a bottle and you know it!

 

[MrEh]

A fairy in a bottle is cheating.

Real men use red potions. And ONLY red potions.