Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
I guess I'm still here.
Regardless, I get your point. You can't really react to those normally, and you can react to FW. Still, that apparently doesn't hurt Zelda as much as you believe it should, nor does it hurt Olimar. Having a recovery that can be reacted to doesn't always hurt you enough to get knocked down a few notches or more (see: Snake).
Right. Same goes for other characters, but again, it's obvious that Olimar's recovery hurts him, so he's placed where he's at. I have reason to believe that if Zelda did NOT have (in excess) the issues you named, she'd be high tier for certain. However, we have what we have, and I think that the issues you named were already taken into consideration... as was everyone else. Though I think I'm getting off-point now... regardless, having a weakness that everyone can deal with isn't necessarily grounds enough to knock a character down by a large margin. If this is the case, then Zelda was probably up for high tier until someone mentioned this and a few other things.
I wouldn't define a successful hit as one that can be DI'd out of. That just doesn't make sense to me. I guess you mean in terms of dealing damage. In that case, sure thing, but if that's not what you meant, then please define a successful hit. Those with laggier moves can't get away with it because... well, they're laggier than Zelda's are and therefore the opponent gets more time to punish. It's not like they're pushing you back to the other side of FD. Find me an example of someone with a laggier move who gets away with a shielded smash, while Zelda, on the same opponent, almost always gets punished.
And my point is that she has good match-ups, and her worst ones are from characters who are generally good in the first place. I think it's an important point to make, because that's clearly a huge part of why Zelda is mid tier.
If you think that Ness is a huge pain and Lucas and Ike are not, you clearly have only seen good Ness players and have not faced good Lucas and Ike players. Please explain to me why those two can't do anything to Zelda but Ness can. OMG PKF COMBOS!!! *Nayru's to limit it to a dair follow-up* OMG DAIR SPIKE! (Lucas and Ike can dair spike.) OMG SUCCESSFUL PKT2! (lol, if you're getting hit consistently by this, then......)
EDIT: Read on, and I see you mean recovery. Gotcha.
It tells me that Farore's Wind is not a good recovery move. This I already agreed to. However, some of the moves you named that are predictable but can't be reacted to normally aren't used in recovery, and the others... well, they're all above Zelda, and I was mainly on those who were around or below Zelda.There's 2 types of predictable, vulnerablly predictable (See: Farore's Wind, Quick Draw, Skull Bash, Green Missile) or predictable that your opponent can't do jack **** about reliably (sword dance, wario's aerial drift approaches, sheik's front tilt, dolphin slash, mach tornado, game and watch's parachute). Farore's wind, as a recovery, puts you in a precarious position of your opponent knowing exactly when and where you are going to show up, and just how much time they have to punish you for it. It's one of the few recoveries where actually aiming to autosnap is a bad idea. That in of itself should tell you something.
Regardless, I get your point. You can't really react to those normally, and you can react to FW. Still, that apparently doesn't hurt Zelda as much as you believe it should, nor does it hurt Olimar. Having a recovery that can be reacted to doesn't always hurt you enough to get knocked down a few notches or more (see: Snake).
Every recovery has some sort of weakness, but zelda's happens to be a weakness that -every- character can do something about, aether as a recovery just fails hard against counter, mirror shield, and mario's cape. Otherwise it takes some daredevil tactics to knock him out of it (stage spiking it from behind before he lets go of his sword, for example).
Right. Same goes for other characters, but again, it's obvious that Olimar's recovery hurts him, so he's placed where he's at. I have reason to believe that if Zelda did NOT have (in excess) the issues you named, she'd be high tier for certain. However, we have what we have, and I think that the issues you named were already taken into consideration... as was everyone else. Though I think I'm getting off-point now... regardless, having a weakness that everyone can deal with isn't necessarily grounds enough to knock a character down by a large margin. If this is the case, then Zelda was probably up for high tier until someone mentioned this and a few other things.
I'm sorry, how does this hurt Zelda the most? She pushes back with Fsmash last time I checked. I am willing to agree that outside of jab and a well-placed Fsmash, she does have issues with her shielding. However, other characters with laggier moves aren't that much more safe from punishment, if at all. All of those characters can be attacked after their moves are shielded. Zelda can push back enough on a shield just like Lucas can with Usmash, but it's obvious who will get punished more often.The only characters with laggier moves can't have their moves DI'd out of after a successful hit, and if they get blocked generally push far enough away for them to get away with it. Even zelda's down smash has enough lag on it for her to get punished reliably for using it, and that's easily one of her quickest moves. When you add to this that her grab is the slowest standing grab in the game you have a real problem because shielding her becomes an easy and simple way to punish her hard.
I wouldn't define a successful hit as one that can be DI'd out of. That just doesn't make sense to me. I guess you mean in terms of dealing damage. In that case, sure thing, but if that's not what you meant, then please define a successful hit. Those with laggier moves can't get away with it because... well, they're laggier than Zelda's are and therefore the opponent gets more time to punish. It's not like they're pushing you back to the other side of FD. Find me an example of someone with a laggier move who gets away with a shielded smash, while Zelda, on the same opponent, almost always gets punished.
They do make up a part of it. Her good priority (for a non-weapon using fighter) also helps out. She rarely can't actually make it back TO the stage. (I know she can always be punished, but she can actually make it to the stage most of the time, so you need to flat out kill her usually.) She has a dtilt that can lead into just about anything at the right %s. Small things like those do make up for the fact that she's a lightweight yet powerful character. They don't launch her into awesome, but they keep her out of low-grade.She dies at extremely low %'s for a character with her (lack of speed) and power. Her power, movement, aerials, and quickness (which she does not have) do not make up for this.
So can I translate this as, "Predictable and has a terrible aerial game"? If so, then I agree. Can't say that nobody can really deny that she's not the hardest character to read and her aerial game is high risk, high reward. She's got a huge weakpoint there, but a lot of characters around her level have glaring weakpoints when they're in certain positions - Olimar off the stage, Fox when it comes to gimping someone who can otherwise make it back to the stage, Toon Link when it comes to someone below him (I mean, come on, that's one of the most telegraphed dairs in the game). Why, though, does Zelda's glaring weakpoints (the air in general, and especially below) knock her down so badly? Because of precision and being able to read her? You can read half the cast easily, so I guess that leaves precision... and to me, that doesn't sell.The only person I know who lands kicks on me reliably that doesn't use it for the sole purpose of KOing is someone I play on wifi that I know I'd power shield reliably in person. The zeldas I do fight in person find that when they manage to space it correctly there's a high likelihood theyre getting power shielded, eruptioned, or countered. 1 of those moves is, once again, a universal response, and that doesn't even count the number of small characters that these moves will generally not hit grounded. She has absolutely nothing going for her if she's directly above someone, the best she can do is hope nair hits as she "fastfalls" into them but she, 22 times out of 10, is better off running away.
So, results and representation are the factors here. I'm sure that Lucas has better results AND representation. Yet, he's still lower than Zelda. My point is that her terrible approaching game does hurt, but the things she does have apparently make this up better than what others have.Placement on the chart has to do with results and representation. Toon link being lower than wolf on that chart should have been a clear indication of that. There are characters there that by pure design are better than others while placed ridiculously low for what they bring to the table.
Don't get me started on Ness. I've been through it too many times to count. Please explain to me why that is, because I'm sure I've refuted it already. What is it, being able to absorb Din's Fire, or something I haven't seem to have addressed yet?There are 3 characters on that list placed lower than her that distinctly romp on her cheerios, ness lucas and ike. Every weak character has a high or top tier fight that isn't necessarily hard for them, that's not really the point.
And my point is that she has good match-ups, and her worst ones are from characters who are generally good in the first place. I think it's an important point to make, because that's clearly a huge part of why Zelda is mid tier.
lolfail. No seriously, that's huge fail.lucas and ike have nothing on zelda, ness on the other hand is a freaking pain.
Hey guess what? I fought Ness's with that. Guess what else? I do that with Ness. Guess one more thing?when you actually fight a ness that can dair spike, pk combo and pkt2 successfully you'll understand why i think ness is a pain lol....
If you think that Ness is a huge pain and Lucas and Ike are not, you clearly have only seen good Ness players and have not faced good Lucas and Ike players. Please explain to me why those two can't do anything to Zelda but Ness can. OMG PKF COMBOS!!! *Nayru's to limit it to a dair follow-up* OMG DAIR SPIKE! (Lucas and Ike can dair spike.) OMG SUCCESSFUL PKT2! (lol, if you're getting hit consistently by this, then......)
I'm sorry, do you mean PKT2, the blasting move? Din's Fire cancels out BOTH PK Thunders.Din's fire eating one character's PK thunder but not the other's
EDIT: Read on, and I see you mean recovery. Gotcha.
Zelda's dair trades hits or BEATS Ness's uair, and it trades on a specific frame. I know this from all of my Ness matches against Zeldas.Ness has an operative advantage in the air as opposed to lucas in the context of fighting zelda, his up air destroys