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Zelda's Position on SBR's Official Tier List

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shuro

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http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028&highlight=official+tier+list

There's the link, here's the actual list.

Top
Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Sheik

Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon


Discuss :3
 
D

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imo zelda should be way higher than that

everybody that i faced at the west coast majors couldn't hang with my zelda lol (germ, simna, T!mmy etc)
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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yeah... it's crap.... but she's underplayed.... who do we have to blame but ourselves for underrepresenting her?

get out there and **** some DDDs people
 

Brinzy

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Got any vids to show us this? That would actually help Zelda out.


And frankly, she's just like Toon Link. If more people would play her, she would rise. I suppose this is true for everyone, though...

That said, considering her match-ups in general, I'm pretty surprised. Nobody (as I know of) does not go beyond 60:40 with an advantage on her, and she's one of Falco's harder match-ups. I guess the other higher characters are what matter.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Got any vids to show us this? That would actually help Zelda out.


And frankly, she's just like Toon Link. If more people would play her, she would rise. I suppose this is true for everyone, though...

That said, considering her match-ups in general, I'm pretty surprised. Nobody (as I know of) does not go beyond 60:40 with an advantage on her, and she's one of Falco's harder match-ups. I guess the other higher characters are what matter.
game and watch MIGHT be 65:35... or 70:30 at worst.... peach also I think is pretty bad... maybe as bad as 65:35... but most others don't have as much of a problem with her... so probably just 60:40...

as for her advantages.... the amount of **** she puts on C. Falcon (w/ or w/o shiek), Fox (in conjunction with shiek) and DDD is really impressive.

she also isn't afraid of most of the higher tierd characters... Rob, Pika, Ice Climbers, Snake, wario, MK, DDD, Falco.... she's some of their worst matchup (granted... it's still not GOOD for zelda vs. snake or MK.... but it's definitely one of their harder matchups)
 

Half-Split Soul

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I´m happy. She isn´t high, but she´s in the middle. She actually is highest ranked of the characters that I use, while she was lowest of them in Melee...
 
D

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sadly i don't have any videos from that tourney :\

i go back to missouri on september 20th so ill get some videos then lol
 

A2ZOMG

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*Yawn* Zelda gets owned by Mario's FLUDD. She can stay in mid tier.
 

Phat Yoshi

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I don't see how anyone would be upset with that. Its not high enough to form a bandwagon following, but not low enough to be consitered a joke.



All in all, I agree she'd be alot higher if she was played more.
 

MRTW113

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She should be at least a little higher than on the lower half of the tier list. At least she's improved from Melee
 

Rykoshet

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*Yawn* Looks at Mario's position in the tier list *Yawn*
Kinda strengthens his point if she loses out to someone so crappy.

Personally I think she's too high on the list, a character with such a predictable recovery, laggy moves, light weight, annoyingly precise aerials and terrible offstage game/approaches shouldn't be that high lol.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Kinda strengthens his point if she loses out to someone so crappy.

Personally I think she's too high on the list, a character with such a predictable recovery and terrible offstage game/approaches shouldn't be that high lol.
<_< you are also blatantly and beyond all reason anti-zelda
 

RoyalBlood

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Kinda strengthens his point if she loses out to someone so crappy.

Personally I think she's too high on the list, a character with such a predictable recovery and terrible offstage game/approaches shouldn't be that high lol.
</3 *Is feeling the hate*

Too high? Excuse Me?

Terrible off stage? -_- only against certain characters

She doesn't need to approach in most cases :/

The predictability comes from the player, not from Zelda, actually she can become unreadable *literally* when used well

Laggy Moves -_- .......IKE

Annoyingly Precise and POWERFUL aerials ^^

Light Weight ..... She can survive up until 180%
 

RoyalBlood

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OMG! I just saw some of your videos and your Ike is very good ^^

I take back laggy Ike :p but i still support un-laggy Zelda :D
 

Brinzy

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Personally I think she's too high on the list, a character with such a predictable recovery, laggy moves, light weight, annoyingly precise aerials and terrible offstage game/approaches shouldn't be that high lol.
Predictable recovery... yeah, how many characters who aren't top or high have unpredictable recoveries again? They generally have other alternatives, but looking at that list, the only one I probably couldn't guess with relative ease is ZSS. The rest can recover in different ways, but they're not unpredictable. I'm not saying Zelda has omg amazing recovery (she certainly does not), but her recovery being predictable obviously doesn't hurt her that much, and if it does, it hurts everyone else evenly.

Laggy moves... perhaps. That said, there aren't really any characters below her who don't have laggy moves elsewhere. She does have quite a few, but they're obviously not so laggy that they become use-it-once-per-match-esque. For those with a laggy moveset, they have to use most of their moves anyway, and again, I don't see why this should knock her down if others lag like her, too.

Weight is one of the smaller factors to consider. Yes, yes, I know that MK being light doesn't hurt him too much because he has all sorts of other things to make up for it, but out of the things you listed, weight is, in my opinion, very trivial. It's not like she's Jigglypuff and doesn't have much of anything to make up for it.

Precise aerials would be correct, but hey, if you're playing at a serious level with someone who has precision involved, you're obviously going to become skilled at landing said moves. Practice is all it takes to help out your own kicking game; getting to land the things on competent players is, admittedly, not the easiest thing to do. Perhaps her preciseness kept her from rising so far up in the first place, along with other lame things about her. If that's the case, I don't think they should dock her any more points for it.

Terrible approaches/offstage, relatively speaking for the most part, would be correct. That said, she has other things to make up for it, and apparently those things that compensate for her approaching issues are better than others who have the same issue but can't make up for it as well. (lolLucas, who also has a better recovery, generally better tilts, and does better at forcing an approach... but still places Low)

I don't see why she shouldn't be where she is. Her match-ups in general are not terrible, and if she loses out to someone, they're usually top/high already (save perhaps Lucas, Olimar, and apparently, Peach, and Oli is above Zelda anyway). She also has other perks, like being one of the few characters who actually gives Falco a hard time (as she doesn't get chaingrabbed, which is already one of the big main things about her here), being effective vs. D3 thanks to his size to alleviate her aerial precision issues, having the power to off him, being able to intercept his recovery for a kill a bit easier than most, and not getting chaingrabbed again, being able to match up with Robot (I assume that it's even, since Sheik/Zelda > Robot, not alone), and (currently) running even or better with all of high tier save Marth. Yeah, she has her glaring issues which I'm sure you and I both know of, but honestly, why is she too high? Where are you putting her?
 

-Mars-

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Raphael the only thing I disagreed with you on was that she was even or better with everyone but marth...........have you played a good Game & Watch lately? Also for those who think she's slow, nair, dsmash,naryus and dtilt can make up for those laggy moves. Also with her great airdodge and spotdodge game, her laggy moves don't become as big of an issue.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Raphael the only thing I disagreed with you on was that she was even or better with everyone but marth...........have you played a good Game & Watch lately? Also for those who think she's slow, nair, dsmash,naryus and dtilt can make up for those laggy moves. Also with her great airdodge and spotdodge game, her laggy moves don't become as big of an issue.
I disagreed first... then saw he said "high" tier.... and G&W is top... not high ;)
 

-Mars-

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Ah yes......my bad, those little technical things slip past my mind sometimes.:)
 

Rykoshet

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</3 *Is feeling the hate*

Too high? Excuse Me?

Terrible off stage? -_- only against certain characters
I'll be willing to bet that there are more characters that she's terrible offstage against than there are characters she has some sort of advantage offstage on. 2/3 tether characters come to mind and honestly that's about it.

She doesn't need to approach in most cases :/
Considering how many characters have a better projectile than din's fire and how bad din's fire is at forcing an approach from your opponent, yes, she does. That's like saying ZSS doesn't need to approach, what the hell is she going to do if her opponent decides "hey, I can just zap her from out of her gun's range"?

The predictability comes from the player, not from Zelda, actually she can become unreadable *literally* when used well
No, the predictability comes from zelda. Farore's wind has to be the biggest piece of wool over people's eyes that this game has to offer. For a move that goes all sorts of directions, it becomes painfully obvious where it's going when it's being used as a recovery. Your best place to use it is immediately above a step inside the stage, and sadly by the time you get that close to give you some freedom there's a high chance you're going to get hit out of the startup.

Laggy Moves -_- .......IKE
I'm well aware of my character's flaws, we're discussing zelda. If you want me to run down the list of why my main is placed so low I'll be more than willing to tell you everything.

Annoyingly Precise and POWERFUL aerials ^^
Name a character in this game who doesn't have powerful aerials. The only one that comes to mind immediately is lucas.

Light Weight ..... She can survive up until 180%
And a heavier character can survive up until 240, doesn't mean it's likely.
 

Brinzy

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Dammit Ryko, when you asked to name someone with weak aerials, I was already hammering in Lucas. I guess that's the hate that manifests within me.

I'll respond to you tomorrow... if you happen to respond to me.
 

Rykoshet

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Predictable recovery... yeah, how many characters who aren't top or high have unpredictable recoveries again?
They generally have other alternatives, but looking at that list, the only one I probably couldn't guess with relative ease is ZSS. The rest can recover in different ways, but they're not unpredictable. I'm not saying Zelda has omg amazing recovery (she certainly does not), but her recovery being predictable obviously doesn't hurt her that much, and if it does, it hurts everyone else evenly.
There's 2 types of predictable, vulnerablly predictable (See: Farore's Wind, Quick Draw, Skull Bash, Green Missile) or predictable that your opponent can't do jack **** about reliably (sword dance, wario's aerial drift approaches, sheik's front tilt, dolphin slash, mach tornado, game and watch's parachute). Farore's wind, as a recovery, puts you in a precarious position of your opponent knowing exactly when and where you are going to show up, and just how much time they have to punish you for it. It's one of the few recoveries where actually aiming to autosnap is a bad idea. That in of itself should tell you something.

Every recovery has some sort of weakness, but zelda's happens to be a weakness that -every- character can do something about, aether as a recovery just fails hard against counter, mirror shield, and mario's cape. Otherwise it takes some daredevil tactics to knock him out of it (stage spiking it from behind before he lets go of his sword, for example).

Laggy moves... perhaps. That said, there aren't really any characters below her who don't have laggy moves elsewhere. She does have quite a few, but they're obviously not so laggy that they become use-it-once-per-match-esque. For those with a laggy moveset, they have to use most of their moves anyway, and again, I don't see why this should knock her down if others lag like her, too.
The only characters with laggier moves can't have their moves DI'd out of after a successful hit, and if they get blocked generally push far enough away for them to get away with it. Even zelda's down smash has enough lag on it for her to get punished reliably for using it, and that's easily one of her quickest moves. When you add to this that her grab is the slowest standing grab in the game you have a real problem because shielding her becomes an easy and simple way to punish her hard.

Weight is one of the smaller factors to consider. Yes, yes, I know that MK being light doesn't hurt him too much because he has all sorts of other things to make up for it, but out of the things you listed, weight is, in my opinion, very trivial. It's not like she's Jigglypuff and doesn't have much of anything to make up for it.
She dies at extremely low %'s for a character with her (lack of speed) and power. Her power, movement, aerials, and quickness (which she does not have) do not make up for this.

Precise aerials would be correct, but hey, if you're playing at a serious level with someone who has precision involved, you're obviously going to become skilled at landing said moves. Practice is all it takes to help out your own kicking game; getting to land the things on competent players is, admittedly, not the easiest thing to do. Perhaps her preciseness kept her from rising so far up in the first place, along with other lame things about her. If that's the case, I don't think they should dock her any more points for it.
The only person I know who lands kicks on me reliably that doesn't use it for the sole purpose of KOing is someone I play on wifi that I know I'd power shield reliably in person. The zeldas I do fight in person find that when they manage to space it correctly there's a high likelihood theyre getting power shielded, eruptioned, or countered. 1 of those moves is, once again, a universal response, and that doesn't even count the number of small characters that these moves will generally not hit grounded. She has absolutely nothing going for her if she's directly above someone, the best she can do is hope nair hits as she "fastfalls" into them but she, 22 times out of 10, is better off running away.

Terrible approaches/offstage, relatively speaking for the most part, would be correct. That said, she has other things to make up for it, and apparently those things that compensate for her approaching issues are better than others who have the same issue but can't make up for it as well. (lolLucas, who also has a better recovery, generally better tilts, and does better at forcing an approach... but still places Low)
Placement on the chart has to do with results and representation. Toon link being lower than wolf on that chart should have been a clear indication of that. There are characters there that by pure design are better than others while placed ridiculously low for what they bring to the table.

I don't see why she shouldn't be where she is. Her match-ups in general are not terrible, and if she loses out to someone, they're usually top/high already (save perhaps Lucas, Olimar, and apparently, Peach, and Oli is above Zelda anyway). She also has other perks, like being one of the few characters who actually gives Falco a hard time (as she doesn't get chaingrabbed, which is already one of the big main things about her here), being effective vs. D3 thanks to his size to alleviate her aerial precision issues, having the power to off him, being able to intercept his recovery for a kill a bit easier than most, and not getting chaingrabbed again, being able to match up with Robot (I assume that it's even, since Sheik/Zelda > Robot, not alone), and (currently) running even or better with all of high tier save Marth. Yeah, she has her glaring issues which I'm sure you and I both know of, but honestly, why is she too high? Where are you putting her?
There are 3 characters on that list placed lower than her that distinctly romp on her cheerios, ness lucas and ike. Every weak character has a high or top tier fight that isn't necessarily hard for them, that's not really the point.


Edit: I actually kinda facepalmed at the term "airdodge and spot dodge game".
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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There are 3 characters on that list placed lower than her that distinctly romp on her cheerios, ness lucas and ike. Every weak character has a high or top tier fight that isn't necessarily hard for them, that's not really the point.


Edit: I actually kinda facepalmed at the term "airdodge and spot dodge game".
*dies of uncontrollable laughter* :laugh:

just like old times :ohwell:

<_< painful... excruciatingly painful old times

(translation: Ness does not have even the slightest edge in the matchup. Lucas and Ikae have advantages... but neither are large at all.... saying ANYONE besides G&W romps on her like cheerios does little to assuage our opinion that you are INCREDIBLY biased.... and even G&W doesn't DESTROY her... but he's bad)
 

RoyalBlood

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I'll be willing to bet that there are more characters that she's terrible offstage against than there are characters she has some sort of advantage offstage on. 2/3 tether characters come to mind and honestly that's about it.

Then go agressive ^^ they never expect it, and Zelda is not crap off stage, she may be bad but not crap :) crap goes to snake ;)

Considering how many characters have a better projectile than din's fire and how bad din's fire is at forcing an approach from your opponent, yes, she does. That's like saying ZSS doesn't need to approach, what the hell is she going to do if her opponent decides "hey, I can just zap her from out of her gun's range"?

And how many projectiles get outprioritazes by Din's (actually a lot except lasers, full charged balls, ROB laser and i think that's all o.o)


No, the predictability comes from zelda. Farore's wind has to be the biggest piece of wool over people's eyes that this game has to offer. For a move that goes all sorts of directions, it becomes painfully obvious where it's going when it's being used as a recovery. Your best place to use it is immediately above a step inside the stage, and sadly by the time you get that close to give you some freedom there's a high chance you're going to get hit out of the startup.

But we shouldn't say Zelda is predictable only because of FW right? her other moves are better

I'm well aware of my character's flaws, we're discussing zelda. If you want me to run down the list of why my main is placed so low I'll be more than willing to tell you everything.

But i said i taked it back </3


Name a character in this game who doesn't have powerful aerials. The only one that comes to mind immediately is lucas.


Well,i should rephrase that, EXTREMELY POWERFUL AERIALS (they start killing from0-40% and forward :D), and most characters have either 1-3 powerful aerials, Zelda has 3 Yay :3


And a heavier character can survive up until 240, doesn't mean it's likely.

Really 0.0n I mean Zelda can survive decayed Yoshis, Peaches, ZSSes, etc; but 240% 0.0 Gosh :3
10squishyhamsters

Edit: Oh Ryko <3 i love your replies, they sort of strenghten me :3
 

Rykoshet

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*dies of uncontrollable laughter* :laugh:

just like old times :ohwell:

<_< painful... excruciatingly painful old times

(translation: Ness does not have even the slightest edge in the matchup. Lucas and Ikae have advantages... but neither are large at all.... saying ANYONE besides G&W romps on her like cheerios does little to assuage our opinion that you are INCREDIBLY biased.... and even G&W doesn't DESTROY her... but he's bad)
The fact that I'm stating my opinion should have been a clear indication that I'm obviously biased, since if I wanted to speak objectively I probably would have said as much to begin with. And the only thing I can see ness falling apart where lucas doesn't is Din's fire eating one character's PK thunder but not the other's, which is to say that if a character with such an overpowered second jump is put in that position will likely start it early to make it so you have to aim it in a way where it either misses the bolt completely or hits them both, giving ness another shot and bounces him up to aerial drift back to the stage. Otherwise ness doesn't have any sort of disadvantage that lucas doesn't in the matchup against zelda, sorry. Losing to a character reliably for all intents and purposes is getting romped. If you get beat 9 times out of 10, or even 7 times out of 10 to a character there's a good likelihood the character is designed to put her down.

I hate to break it to you, but calling someone biased doesn't discredit the validity of their statements. If I were going all out saying zelda super sucked and did nothing to back up or substantiate my opinion it would be one thing, but I'm a big boy and I know how to give reasons for why I think certain ways.

RoyalBlood said:
And how many projectiles get outprioritazes by Din's (actually a lot except lasers, full charged balls, ROB laser and i think that's all o.o
Priority means what when your projectile is slower? Secondly, you're talking about projectiles, how often are you in a situation where priority is the deciding factor on who gets hit or put in a precarious position? How often are projectiles hit trading again?

But we shouldn't say Zelda is predictable only because of FW right? her other moves are better
Considering the only thing I described as predictable was her recovery, it would stand to reason that I'm only going to be talking about her recovery in such a light.
 
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i love how people think ness is a bad character, it makes me laugh hardcore when they get 3 stocked by my brother

lucas and ike have nothing on zelda, ness on the other hand is a freaking pain.
 

Rykoshet

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Ness really is a bad character, but if Izaw can make link look amazing there nothing saying someone can't take another equally or less flawed character and actually make him work.
 

RoyalBlood

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Priority means what when your projectile is slower? Secondly, you're talking about projectiles, how often are you in a situation where priority is the deciding factor on who gets hit or put in a precarious position? How often are projectiles hit trading again?

Priority means that Din's make the others projectiles disappear, it nullifies them, you don't trade hits ^^ E.G.

Pikachu uses thunder jolt as an approach

Zelda has a reflector, but against Pikachu, the after lag will make her vulnerable

Instead of reflecting the thunder jolts from Pikachu's approach, use Din's to cover yourself from incoming thunder jolts AND pikachu

Also, Din's make turnips disappear

It returns Ice Block from where they came

Stops Granades and Nikitas on its tracks

Nullifies Paralyzer Shots

Etc, etc, etc,



Considering the only thing I described as predictable was her recovery, it would stand to reason that I'm only going to be talking about her recovery in such a light.

Please explain :) *puppy face*
10projectiles
 
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Ness really is a bad character, but if Izaw can make link look amazing there nothing saying someone can't take another equally or less flawed character and actually make him work.
....me legan and deva have better links lol...

but thats beside the point!

ness has an extremely hard learning curve (maybe harder than link's) and that is the reason why people think ness is so bad. when you actually fight a ness that can dair spike, pk combo and pkt2 successfully you'll understand why i think ness is a pain lol....
 

Rykoshet

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Priority means that Din's make the others projectiles disappear, it nullifies them, you don't trade hits ^^ E.G.

Pikachu uses thunder jolt as an approach

Zelda has a reflector, but against Pikachu, the after lag will make her vulnerable

Instead of reflecting the thunder jolts from Pikachu's approach, use Din's to cover yourself from incoming thunder jolts AND pikachu

Also, Din's make turnips disappear

It returns Ice Block from where they came

Stops Granades and Nikitas on its tracks

Nullifies Paralyzer Shots

Etc, etc, etc,
Oh I understood the concept. The problem is most projectiles that you can nullify come out quicker than your din's fire travels the same distance, you're gaining no ground by doing so. Turnips also have the extra bonus of being glide tossed. Din's fire is a slow projectile, why wouldnt someone just take the opening to just throw another projectile at you?
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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PHP:
The fact that I'm stating my opinion should have been a clear indication that I'm obviously biased, since if I wanted to speak objectively I probably would have said as much to begin with.
:ohwell: congratulations for trying to twist perception... but having an opinion =/= being biased beyond reason... which you are. You are out to get Zelda at every turn.... and yes... you are being ridiculous about it.
And the only thing I can see ness falling apart where lucas doesn't is Din's fire eating one character's PK thunder but not the other's, which is to say that if a character with such an overpowered second jump is put in that position will likely start it early to make it so you have to aim it in a way where it either misses the bolt completely or hits them both, giving ness another shot and bounces him up to aerial drift back to the stage.
I REALLLLLLLLLLY like how you get to have it both ways... because apparently Din's fire is an awful awful projectile that should never be used.... but the fact that it exists and that Ness and lucas posess a move that can counter it is enough to give them an edge... even if them countering it is a situational thing.
Otherwise ness doesn't have any sort of disadvantage that lucas doesn't in the matchup against zelda, sorry.
This just in: Ness and lucas are not the same character, and occasionally have different matchups.... who knew? :O

- ALL lucas's smashes are MUCH more reliable than ness's vs. Zelda: Usmash ***** FW if she has to recover onto the stage, Lucas's Fsmash comes out with enough speed to not get interrupted by zelda like ness's does and Lucas's Dsmash actually does things.

-Lucas's specials are all more affective than ness's are in this particular matchup... unlike ness, Lucas can absorb a Din's and his attack boxes can stop zelda from punishing absorption. his PK fire is almost impossible to reflect propoerly, and his PKT works much better for juggling Zelda.

- Lucas is harder to gimp... yeah, you heard me GIMP!!! Zelda actually effectively edgeguards ness.

-Lucas, despite having a generally inferior AIR game compared to ness, has an air game that works better against zelda becuase its disjointed hitboxes make it nearly impossible for her to Usmash stuff.

- lucas's recovery is better in general... he can actually survive a Zelda Dsmash.

-Ness's normal strategies of starting comobes with PKFire is primarily countered by NL... and NL and Dsmash make his normally reliable throw game VERY hard to initiate.

Basically... where ness falls here, is that Zelda stops his ground game nearly completely... and he just can't keep her in the air enough to express his dominance there... because ness, while he has great aerials, lacks the ability to keep a foe airborne.

Lucas, on the other hand, has an air game that, while poor, is functional enough to protect from some of zelda's scarier moves... and a ground game that is almost completely uncompromised by anything in Zelda's repetoir.


seriously... not even CLOSE to the same matchup.

Losing to a character reliably for all intents and purposes is getting romped. If you get beat 9 times out of 10, or even 7 times out of 10 to a character there's a good likelihood the character is designed to put her down.
fine... the only character agreed to have a 70:30 on zelda is game and watch.... ike is about 55:45... and lucas is about the same as ike



you're lucky it's 2 in the morning because half of what I wanted to say just dissapeared from my brain
 

RoyalBlood

Smash Ace
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
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Oh I understood the concept. The problem is most projectiles that you can nullify come out quicker than your din's fire travels the same distance, you're gaining no ground by doing so. Turnips also have the extra bonus of being glide tossed. Din's fire is a slow projectile, why wouldnt someone just take the opening to just throw another projectile at you?

Din's is kind of KIND OF slow on start-up, It's very fast (faster than normal projectiles that Din's can outprioritaze) on moving :bee::laugh::);):lick:
 

Rykoshet

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
2,225
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No really, I quit.
StH said:
congratulations for trying to twist perception... but having an opinion =/= being biased beyond reason... which you are. You are out to get Zelda at every turn.... and yes... you are being ridiculous about it.
The fact that you're stating that I'm beyond reason while ignoring reasons stated reeks of delicious hypocrisy.

I REALLLLLLLLLLY like how you get to have it both ways... because apparently Din's fire is an awful awful projectile that should never be used.... but the fact that it exists and that Ness and lucas posess a move that can counter it is enough to give them an edge... even if them countering it is a situational thing.
Did you actually read what you quoted when you started ranting? It had nothing to do with countering din's fire, but rather din's fire stuffing one recovery and not the other. In that situation the move isn't being used to counter din's fire, and I'm still of the mind that the move sucks and should never be used because what you stated was a complete non-sequitur.

This just in: Ness and lucas are not the same character, and occasionally have different matchups.... who knew? :O
Are you about to tell me marth and ike are different too? How about link and toon link? Are you about to impart such wisdom as the sky is blue and cows go moo? What you're stating is obvious, but none of the operative flaws that one character has in the context of fighting zelda is enough for one to be at a disadvantage compared to the other.

- ALL lucas's smashes are MUCH more reliable than ness's vs. Zelda: Usmash ***** FW if she has to recover onto the stage, Lucas's Fsmash comes out with enough speed to not get interrupted by zelda like ness's does and Lucas's Dsmash actually does things.
FW is predictable enough for ness to grab you out of your exit animation and kill you with or to just hit you in the face with his bat, even if it's slow. If I can knock a zelda out of FW with ike's fsmash, speed isn't the issue with punishing the move, sorry! Moving on.

-Lucas's specials are all more affective than ness's are in this particular matchup... unlike ness, Lucas can absorb a Din's and his attack boxes can stop zelda from punishing absorption. his PK fire is almost impossible to reflect propoerly, and his PKT works much better for juggling Zelda.
A ness or lucas shouldnt be absorbing din's fire unless you're too far away to follow up with something reliably. You're better off shielding either PK fire attempt, and PK thunder has already been mentioned when I brought up...

- Lucas is harder to gimp... yeah, you heard me GIMP!!! Zelda actually effectively edgeguards ness.
Gimping! Surprise, when I said

And the only thing I can see ness falling apart where lucas doesn't is Din's fire eating one character's PK thunder but not the other's, which is to say that if a character with such an overpowered second jump is put in that position will likely start it early to make it so you have to aim it in a way where it either misses the bolt completely or hits them both, giving ness another shot and bounces him up to aerial drift back to the stage.
You could judge by the context that I was speaking of PK as a recovery and not as an attack, you're free to ACTUALLY read it this time around and respond properly though.

-Lucas, despite having a generally inferior AIR game compared to ness, has an air game that works better against zelda becuase its disjointed hitboxes make it nearly impossible for her to Usmash stuff.
Ness has an operative advantage in the air as opposed to lucas in the context of fighting zelda, his up air destroys and zelda's air game from above is pathetic. Where lucas would approach with an nair, a ness can do the same with their fair. Lucas's only "advantage" here is viability of crossups, and zelda has plenty of moves that hit relatively quickly on both sides of her so uh... no.

- lucas's recovery is better in general... he can actually survive a Zelda Dsmash.
I'm bringing up a non-sequitur so feel free to save calling me out on it, Ike can't survive zelda's down smash, if you manage to kill 3 times with the move then more power to you but no one with half a brain is going to put themselves in the position to be for more than one stock loss.

-Ness's normal strategies of starting comobes with PKFire is primarily countered by NL... and NL and Dsmash make his normally reliable throw game VERY hard to initiate.
I play one of the few characters in the game that by design it is impossible to follow up on pk fire with, the answer is... uh, don't use PK fire to initiate combos. Grab game can be initiated as a defensive tactic, since neither character really forces the other to approach here you're just as likely to be shield grabbed as you are to respond to approach yourself.
 
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