Zelda's Position on SBR's Official Tier List

[Brinzy]

I guess I'm still here.

There's 2 types of predictable, vulnerablly predictable (See: Farore's Wind, Quick Draw, Skull Bash, Green Missile) or predictable that your opponent can't do jack **** about reliably (sword dance, wario's aerial drift approaches, sheik's front tilt, dolphin slash, mach tornado, game and watch's parachute). Farore's wind, as a recovery, puts you in a precarious position of your opponent knowing exactly when and where you are going to show up, and just how much time they have to punish you for it. It's one of the few recoveries where actually aiming to autosnap is a bad idea. That in of itself should tell you something.

It tells me that Farore's Wind is not a good recovery move. This I already agreed to. However, some of the moves you named that are predictable but can't be reacted to normally aren't used in recovery, and the others... well, they're all above Zelda, and I was mainly on those who were around or below Zelda.

Regardless, I get your point. You can't really react to those normally, and you can react to FW. Still, that apparently doesn't hurt Zelda as much as you believe it should, nor does it hurt Olimar. Having a recovery that can be reacted to doesn't always hurt you enough to get knocked down a few notches or more (see: Snake).

Every recovery has some sort of weakness, but zelda's happens to be a weakness that -every- character can do something about, aether as a recovery just fails hard against counter, mirror shield, and mario's cape. Otherwise it takes some daredevil tactics to knock him out of it (stage spiking it from behind before he lets go of his sword, for example).

Right. Same goes for other characters, but again, it's obvious that Olimar's recovery hurts him, so he's placed where he's at. I have reason to believe that if Zelda did NOT have (in excess) the issues you named, she'd be high tier for certain. However, we have what we have, and I think that the issues you named were already taken into consideration... as was everyone else. Though I think I'm getting off-point now... regardless, having a weakness that everyone can deal with isn't necessarily grounds enough to knock a character down by a large margin. If this is the case, then Zelda was probably up for high tier until someone mentioned this and a few other things.

The only characters with laggier moves can't have their moves DI'd out of after a successful hit, and if they get blocked generally push far enough away for them to get away with it. Even zelda's down smash has enough lag on it for her to get punished reliably for using it, and that's easily one of her quickest moves. When you add to this that her grab is the slowest standing grab in the game you have a real problem because shielding her becomes an easy and simple way to punish her hard.

I'm sorry, how does this hurt Zelda the most? She pushes back with Fsmash last time I checked. I am willing to agree that outside of jab and a well-placed Fsmash, she does have issues with her shielding. However, other characters with laggier moves aren't that much more safe from punishment, if at all. All of those characters can be attacked after their moves are shielded. Zelda can push back enough on a shield just like Lucas can with Usmash, but it's obvious who will get punished more often.

I wouldn't define a successful hit as one that can be DI'd out of. That just doesn't make sense to me. I guess you mean in terms of dealing damage. In that case, sure thing, but if that's not what you meant, then please define a successful hit. Those with laggier moves can't get away with it because... well, they're laggier than Zelda's are and therefore the opponent gets more time to punish. It's not like they're pushing you back to the other side of FD. Find me an example of someone with a laggier move who gets away with a shielded smash, while Zelda, on the same opponent, almost always gets punished.

She dies at extremely low %'s for a character with her (lack of speed) and power. Her power, movement, aerials, and quickness (which she does not have) do not make up for this.

They do make up a part of it. Her good priority (for a non-weapon using fighter) also helps out. She rarely can't actually make it back TO the stage. (I know she can always be punished, but she can actually make it to the stage most of the time, so you need to flat out kill her usually.) She has a dtilt that can lead into just about anything at the right %s. Small things like those do make up for the fact that she's a lightweight yet powerful character. They don't launch her into awesome, but they keep her out of low-grade.

The only person I know who lands kicks on me reliably that doesn't use it for the sole purpose of KOing is someone I play on wifi that I know I'd power shield reliably in person. The zeldas I do fight in person find that when they manage to space it correctly there's a high likelihood theyre getting power shielded, eruptioned, or countered. 1 of those moves is, once again, a universal response, and that doesn't even count the number of small characters that these moves will generally not hit grounded. She has absolutely nothing going for her if she's directly above someone, the best she can do is hope nair hits as she "fastfalls" into them but she, 22 times out of 10, is better off running away.

So can I translate this as, "Predictable and has a terrible aerial game"? If so, then I agree. Can't say that nobody can really deny that she's not the hardest character to read and her aerial game is high risk, high reward. She's got a huge weakpoint there, but a lot of characters around her level have glaring weakpoints when they're in certain positions - Olimar off the stage, Fox when it comes to gimping someone who can otherwise make it back to the stage, Toon Link when it comes to someone below him (I mean, come on, that's one of the most telegraphed dairs in the game). Why, though, does Zelda's glaring weakpoints (the air in general, and especially below) knock her down so badly? Because of precision and being able to read her? You can read half the cast easily, so I guess that leaves precision... and to me, that doesn't sell.

Placement on the chart has to do with results and representation. Toon link being lower than wolf on that chart should have been a clear indication of that. There are characters there that by pure design are better than others while placed ridiculously low for what they bring to the table.

So, results and representation are the factors here. I'm sure that Lucas has better results AND representation. Yet, he's still lower than Zelda. My point is that her terrible approaching game does hurt, but the things she does have apparently make this up better than what others have.

There are 3 characters on that list placed lower than her that distinctly romp on her cheerios, ness lucas and ike. Every weak character has a high or top tier fight that isn't necessarily hard for them, that's not really the point.

Don't get me started on Ness. I've been through it too many times to count. Please explain to me why that is, because I'm sure I've refuted it already. What is it, being able to absorb Din's Fire, or something I haven't seem to have addressed yet?

And my point is that she has good match-ups, and her worst ones are from characters who are generally good in the first place. I think it's an important point to make, because that's clearly a huge part of why Zelda is mid tier.

lucas and ike have nothing on zelda, ness on the other hand is a freaking pain.

lolfail. No seriously, that's huge fail.

when you actually fight a ness that can dair spike, pk combo and pkt2 successfully you'll understand why i think ness is a pain lol....

Hey guess what? I fought Ness's with that. Guess what else? I do that with Ness. Guess one more thing?

If you think that Ness is a huge pain and Lucas and Ike are not, you clearly have only seen good Ness players and have not faced good Lucas and Ike players. Please explain to me why those two can't do anything to Zelda but Ness can. OMG PKF COMBOS!!! *Nayru's to limit it to a dair follow-up* OMG DAIR SPIKE! (Lucas and Ike can dair spike.) OMG SUCCESSFUL PKT2! (lol, if you're getting hit consistently by this, then......)

Din's fire eating one character's PK thunder but not the other's

I'm sorry, do you mean PKT2, the blasting move? Din's Fire cancels out BOTH PK Thunders.

EDIT: Read on, and I see you mean recovery. Gotcha.

Ness has an operative advantage in the air as opposed to lucas in the context of fighting zelda, his up air destroys

Zelda's dair trades hits or BEATS Ness's uair, and it trades on a specific frame. I know this from all of my Ness matches against Zeldas.

 

[Deleted member]

lolfail. No seriously, that's huge fail.

i can tell that you've never played a good ness so i'll let that slide

 

[A2ZOMG]

*Yawn* Looks at Mario's position in the tier list *Yawn*

That was exactly the point though.

It's sad. As for the matchup, Zelda can't spam Din's Fire at all if Mario has a fully charged FLUDD, because if she uses Din's Fire then, she will die.

 

[Rykoshet]

No, the fact that you said that Ike has nothing on zelda when he has practically everything on her is pretty ridiculous in of itself.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The fact that you're stating that I'm beyond reason while ignoring reasons stated reeks of delicious hypocrisy.

when did I do that? I believe you are the one ignoring all reason.

Did you actually read what you quoted when you started ranting? It had nothing to do with countering din's fire, but rather din's fire stuffing one recovery and not the other. In that situation the move isn't being used to counter din's fire, and I'm still of the mind that the move sucks and should never be used because what you stated was a complete non-sequitur.

sorry if I misread then... the point is valid enough I guess. It's 2:00 AM... give me a break

Are you about to tell me marth and ike are different too? How about link and toon link? Are you about to impart such wisdom as the sky is blue and cows go moo? What you're stating is obvious, but none of the operative flaws that one character has in the context of fighting zelda is enough for one to be at a disadvantage compared to the other.

obvious or not... you're ignoring it... because they ARE different and the differences matter here

FW is predictable enough for ness to grab you out of your exit animation and kill you with or to just hit you in the face with his bat, even if it's slow. If I can knock a zelda out of FW with ike's fsmash, speed isn't the issue with punishing the move, sorry! Moving on.

actually, no... Usmash is RIDICULOUSLY powerful AND completely outprioritizes Zelda's reapearance hitbox.... ness can't do that...

Also.. you ignored the bat vs. stick and yoyo vs. lucas's pk finger comment.... Lucas's other smashes will actually see use in the match while on the ground... not JUST when punishing Farore's.

A ness or lucas shouldnt be absorbing din's fire unless you're too far away to follow up with something reliably. You're better off shielding either PK fire attempt, and PK thunder has already been mentioned when I brought up...

point REMAINS... Lucas is more capable of absorbing dins due to this... making it harder for Zelda to use... and PKT is more effective from lucas.... w00t w00t an advantage is an advantage.

Gimping! Surprise, when I said

considering ness's inferior recovery anyway, it's a major consideration.

Ness has an operative advantage in the air against lucas in he context of fighting zelda, his up air destroys and zelda's air game from above is pathetic. Where lucas would approach with an nair, a ness can do the same with their fair. Lucas's only "advantage" here is viability of crossups, and zelda has plenty of moves that hit relatively quickly on both sides of her so uh... no.

good luck getting off as many U airs as you think you are going to.... no Zelda in her right mind would challenge ness to a dogfight...ness's only aerials you'll really see use from are his dair for gimp attempts and fair for an apporach.

Bringing up a non-sequitur, Ike can't survive zelda's down smash, if you manage to kill 3 times with the move then more power to you but no one with half a brain is going to put themselves in the position to be for more than one stock loss.

and advantage is an advantage

I play one of the few characters in the game that by design it is impossible to follow up on pk fire with, the answer is... uh, don't use PK fire to initiate combos.

so we limit the usability of some of his most reliable strategies isn't considered an advantage any more?

 

[RoyalBlood]

The fact that you're stating that I'm beyond reason while ignoring reasons stated reeks of delicious hypocrisy.

Yummy :3

XD Sorry i couldn't resist :3


I'm bringing up a non-sequitur so feel free to save calling me out on it, Ike can't survive zelda's down smash, if you manage to kill 3 times with the move then more power to you but no one with half a brain is going to put themselves in the position to be for more than one stock loss.

There is a technique where Zelda auto-sweetspots Ike and he loses all of his jumps, thus dieing or diying 0.0 at 40% and so on ^^

*pats on shoulder*

you aren't really helping Royal -_-

;_; </3

10brokenhearts

Edit : WAT? 5 post while i was writing mine =0

 

[Brinzy]

i can tell that you've never played a good ness so i'll let that slide

LOL, Ness IS my main character. Get that "omg you've never played a good ____" argument out of my face.

Also, you still fail. You just said that Lucas and Ike can't touch Zelda, but Ness can. What the hell is that?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

;_; </3

10brokenhearts

trying to be nice about it.... but your experience with zelda is at a ..... how do I put this delicately... more rudimentary level... you aren't seeing some of the weaknesses that can be punished at higher levels of play

get out there and play better brawlers... I mean... maybe you're some amazing thing that really CAN do all these things so well.... but, honestly Zelda DOES have weaknesses and a lot of what you are saying is irrelivent


but you are still my buddy

 

[RoyalBlood]

trying to be nice about it.... but your experience with zelda is at a ..... how do I put this delicately... more rudimentary level... you aren't seeing some of the weaknesses that can be punished at higher levels of play

get out there and play better brawlers... I mean... maybe you're some amazing thing that really CAN do all these things so well.... but, honestly Zelda DOES have weaknesses and a lot of what you are saying is irrelivent


but you are still my buddy

=O ;____; *feels even worse*

I've played NessFTW, OlimarMan, Jump_manxx at GB =o

They range from 1 to 10 at GB ;__; and i could put up a fight ^^

They use Ness, Olimar and Wolf respectively

AiB ladder also gave me a lot of experience against characters like Marth, MK, Ike (this one was tough, but now i got it down :D )Peach etc.

So that's why i test what i say ;__;

*walks away feeling bad* ;__;

Edit : *is disgusted of himself for sounding cocky* *pukes bubble gum ^^*

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

=O ;____; *feels even worse*

I've played NessFTW, OlimarMan, Jump_manxx at GB =o

They range from 1 to 10 at GB ;__; and i could put up a fight ^^

They use Ness, Olimar and Wolf respectively

AiB ladder also gave me a lot of experience against characters like Marth, MK, Ike (this one was tough, but now i got it down :D )Peach etc.

So that's why i test what i say ;__;

*walks away feeling bad* ;__;

Edit : *is disgusted of himself for sounding cocky* *pukes bubble gum ^^*

I'm sure you're not a BAD Zelda by any stretch... and you do what wins at your level of play.... but most people would never do some of what you say.... like trade projectiles with dins O.o

 

[RoyalBlood]

I'm sure you're not a BAD Zelda by any stretch... and you do what wins at your level of play.... but most people would never do some of what you say.... like trade projectiles with dins O.o

Contributing to Zelda's predictable stereotype

And i never said trade projectiles

I said instead of expose yourself with nayru's, use Din's, not Hit them with Din's and let them hit you -_-

 

[-spAzn-]

Atleast there is one person supposely worst then Link lol.

Oh right yeah we talking bout Zelda haha. I'm pretty content on her position don't really mind it cause I never expected her to be listed that high honestly.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Zelda deserves to be somewhere in High tier. She was mid tier in melee, but she's better now, so shes definitly high tier.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda was bottom tier trash in Melee. The only thing about her this time around is that her actual moveset was powered up. She's still played virtually exactly the same.

 

[Rykoshet]

I have to handle some stuff so my next long winded response will be in a few hours but.

I wouldn't define a successful hit as one that can be DI'd out of. That just doesn't make sense to me. I guess you mean in terms of dealing damage. In that case, sure thing, but if that's not what you meant, then please define a successful hit.

A hit that is not shielded, a front or up smash that actually makes a connection on your opponent, both can be DI'd out of mid-smash even if you spaced/timed it correctly. That's a rough deal for zelda.

 

[Brinzy]

I see. Well, your definition of a successful hit is apparently a bit different from mine (successful being the last hit of each of those smash attacks connect).

Also, I have never personally had anyone get out of my Usmash when I hit them in the direct center of it, but I guess my opponents just didn't DI properly/fast enough.

 

[goodkid]

Zelda is just fine on the tier list, I don't know why everyone is complaining. I didn't even expect her to be that high. Tiers don't really matter too much, an this is the first list & it will continue to change. It just shows how much harder we have to work to get her up there =b.

 

[Iris]

trying to be nice about it.... but your experience with zelda is at a ..... how do I put this delicately... more rudimentary level... you aren't seeing some of the weaknesses that can be punished at higher levels of play

get out there and play better brawlers... I mean... maybe you're some amazing thing that really CAN do all these things so well.... but, honestly Zelda DOES have weaknesses and a lot of what you are saying is irrelivent


but you are still my buddy

...haha.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Coming from the guy calling Lucas's up smash a hard counter to Farore's Wind. The mere idea of Lucas > Ness when against Zelda is hilarious. Lucas's ground game is a terrible mesh of roll/spotdodge punishing with cheap smashes over Wi-fi. Zelda will dominate a grounded Lucas if she isn't rolling into smashes like a ****** and knows how to get in Lucas's face with Nayru's and Dtilts.

Also, bringing up Lucas's PSI magnet as an advantage is a disgrace. If absorbing Din's Fire is at all match-breaking then you're playing Brawl wrong. If you're still trying to bait a recovering Mother/G&W with Din's as they recover and from half the battlefield away then you have a lot of improving yet to do. Din's, like against most other characters, is more appropriate as a roll punishing tool due to its hitbox, an attempt for some extra damage after connecting a nair, punishing free-fallers from a distance, or being cheap in FFAs. Continuing to hold onto Din's as a magic projectile full of versatility and mindgames, capable of forcing enemies into disadvantageous positions is just a pain for anyone hoping to improve Zelda's mediocrity.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

...haha.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Coming from the guy calling Lucas's up smash a hard counter to Farore's Wind. The mere idea of Lucas > Ness when against Zelda is hilarious. Lucas's ground game is a terrible mesh of roll/spotdodge punishing with cheap smashes over Wi-fi. Zelda will dominate a grounded Lucas if she isn't rolling into smashes like a ****** and knows how to get in Lucas's face with Nayru's and Dtilts.

Also, bringing up Lucas's PSI magnet as an advantage is a disgrace. If absorbing Din's Fire is at all match-breaking then you're playing Brawl wrong. If you're still trying to bait a recovering Mother/G&W with Din's as they recover and from half the battlefield away then you have a lot of improving yet to do. Din's, like against most other characters, is more appropriate as a roll punishing tool due to its hitbox, an attempt for some extra damage after connecting a nair, punishing free-fallers from a distance, or being cheap in FFAs. Continuing to hold onto Din's as a magic projectile full of versatility and mindgames, capable of forcing enemies into disadvantageous positions is just a pain for anyone hoping to improve Zelda's mediocrity.

you obviously have not played good lucases.... and I BELIEVE I expressed that countering din's means little.... but Lucas DOES do it better... a small advanatage is still and advantage... you see, what you've neglected to give is any reason that ness is superior to lucas Vs. Zelda

 

[Brinzy]

The mere idea of Lucas > Ness when against Zelda is hilarious. Lucas's ground game is a terrible mesh of roll/spotdodge punishing with cheap smashes over Wi-fi.

Prove to me that Lucas is worse than Ness against Zelda, and I will surely refute every single one of those points. If you are going to go, "Ness is better in the air than Lucas, so he wins" and that's it, do not bother replying. Otherwise, have a go at it. It'll be mildly entertaining to me at the very least.

Lucas's only "roll/spotdodge" punishing move on the ground is Dsmash. That's it. If you think Usmash is a roll/spotdodge punisher and that's it, then you probably don't have a clue elsewhere either. But go ahead, please try and prove to me that Ness is worse against Zelda than Lucas is.

Also, bringing up Lucas's PSI magnet as an advantage is a disgrace.

No, dear, it's called Lucas's PSI Magnet > Ness's + having a move that takes care of an energy projectile vs. someone with an energy projectile = one advantage for the former. Lucas's heals for more, it comes out faster, and it has a hitbox that is basically a horizontal spike. That would give Lucas AN ADVANTAGE vs. Zelda, whether she uses Din's Fire or not. That's a Down B that can do something to you even if you decide to not use Din's, unlike Ness's.

If absorbing Din's Fire is at all match-breaking then you're playing Brawl wrong.

NOBODY SAID THIS. Stop putting ******** thoughts into peoples' posts.

If you're still trying to bait a recovering Mother/G&W with Din's as they recover and from half the battlefield away then you have a lot of improving yet to do.

If you use Din's at all when Mother kids are recovering, rather than bait, you should instead 1) hit them from long range after they blast themselves off (Ness early on to cut his traveling distance; and using the upper end of Din's distance on Lucas to override his PKT2), or 2) throw it out and flat out canceling their PKT for -1 stock. I don't think anyone here said that Din's is used for baiting during recovery, but hey, if that's what you think Din's is only good for when Mother kids are recovering, have fun trying to prove anything else to me.



Also, Lucas's Usmash does override Zelda's FW reappearance. That's automatically limiting where she can warp to with her already shaky recovery. I won't call it a hard counter, but that's the best time to use it (and it will probably kill anyway).

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

imo zelda should be way higher than that

everybody that i faced at the west coast majors couldn't hang with my zelda lol (germ, simna, T!mmy etc)

uh...i believe we played a teams match and i was using a wii+chuck

lol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

uh...i believe we played a teams match and i was using a wii+chuck

lol

ahahahahahh BUSTED

(oh.... your user title is win BTW)

 

[Darkmusician]

Zelda is fine where she is.

 

[BLI7ZARD]

Zelda

I Dont Care Im Sticking With Zelda,and Peach No Matter What Place TheIr In. I Use Who I Like And I Try MY Best To Bring Out There Best. Its No Fun Playing With Someone Just To Win.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i think zelda should be a little higher then she is but she is not in a bad spot. i feel there are other characters who got a lower spot then they should of gotten and a good deal who i feel are higher then they deserve but it is only there first list and it will change over time

 

[XFadingNirvanaX]

Zelda doesn't need to be higher. She could be I'm sure, but she's fine where she is.

 

[Z1GMA]

Zelda doesn't need to be higher. She could be I'm sure, but she's fine where she is.

Wisley said!

 

[Shiroi]

Tier tier tier. >.>
Zelda is awesome. She maybe underused, but people who actually main her can give a big smack to anyone's mouth (based on skill level of course).

Skill settles all.
Arguments online are funny. ^-^


Opinion:
Tier list - List composed of characters in order from "overused" to "overlooked".

I like kitties.

 

[Kataefi]

Whilst that's a very clever way of putting it, you've given life to a thread that was dead many many months ago. So I have no choice but to close it!