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~ Zelda's Matchups ~ (obselete thread/check stickies)
- Thread starter Kataefi
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KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Pray that he goes over the ledge grab limit. 
Pretty much what Zeldspazz said, though, if you're desperate. But if he has the lead, MK can easily time us out by planking or just plain running away.
If you know an MK is a hardcore planker, try to CP a stage with no ledges if possible..... or limited ledges. Stages like Castle Siege and Delfino, although Delfino will probably get you sharked to death instead. Brinstar is another possibility since the lava will force him off the ledge.
Pretty much what Zeldspazz said, though, if you're desperate. But if he has the lead, MK can easily time us out by planking or just plain running away.
If you know an MK is a hardcore planker, try to CP a stage with no ledges if possible..... or limited ledges. Stages like Castle Siege and Delfino, although Delfino will probably get you sharked to death instead. Brinstar is another possibility since the lava will force him off the ledge.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
Does anyone have a lot of ROB experience? I lose to that robot all the time. I do much better against Meta's and Snake's and the like because I can practice against them, but I don't have an ROB's to play so a detailed discussion or something from someone with experience would be helpful...
Against a planker your safest bet is to just try to Din's from such a length that you are safe and might be able to have Din's be large enough to hit him if he gets on stage AND if he lets go of the ledge. But yah I don't think Zelda has much she can do about that...
Against a planker your safest bet is to just try to Din's from such a length that you are safe and might be able to have Din's be large enough to hit him if he gets on stage AND if he lets go of the ledge. But yah I don't think Zelda has much she can do about that...
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
I wouldn't say I have a ton of ROB experience, and a lot of it is from 1v1 within doubles, but it's from playing vs. Chibo, TUSM, and one of my other crewmates..... so I know a decent bit about the MU.
ROB's ftilt will make you cry. From talking with Chibo, I think our fsmash outranges it by a hair, but it doesn't really matter since his ftilt comes out much faster. If you reverse stutter step an fsmash, you can occasionally get him to ftilt into your fsmash, but it works best as a mixup and not a solid strategy. Especially since he has disjoint on it. Not sure how Zelda's dtilt does against it, but I think his ftilt might outspace it?
I dunno, it's a close call on the ground in terms of range..... but his speed generally beats us.
His dtilt is also annoying and leads to more followups, but it's easier to outspace. If you don't DI, he can string dtilts together.
I know he has some combos/followups that lead to grabs on the ground, but I can't remember how they start. Just that he swings his robot arms. x.o His ftilt, dtilt, and jab are all dangerous, don't go near them! Luckily, Zelda's light, so just be smart and unpredictable with how you DI.
You wanna get ROB in the air and stay underneath him at all costs. He has a huge blind spot underneath him (his dair is ridiculously slow) and somewhat of a blind spot behind him, so those are your best places to position yourself. Usmash/utilt his landings and keep him up there.
Vice versa also applies..... he juggles the **** out of us with uair, fair, and grabbing/dsmashing/ftilting our landings. Stay out of the air in front or above him, but if you're behind him, his bair and nair are somewhat slow. So if you're in Zelda's nair range, you can beat him with speed. Keep in mind that his bair hits at his head, too, so avoid it at the front as well.
ROB can't outright kill very well. His best KO moves are nair and bair, in my experience, with occasional kills from usmash (usually off tech chasing you from underneath a platform). Dsmash is easy to DI and shouldn't kill til late..... his fsmash is weak. Fully charged gyro is strong, but DI will save you unless you're off-stage.
When you're at high percentages, he will spam SH nairs..... and they autocancel. It's irritating, but if you expect them and know how laggy they are, it's not so bad. Just remember that the hitbox comes back around..... don't let go of your shield too early, or you'll get hit with the end, which still has the power to kill you.
Usually ROB kills me with edgeguarding. His fair is quick, and he can fly, so if you're in a position where you need to FW, he'll try to fair spam you off the screen. I can't remember what I do vs. this specifically..... sometimes I just spam FW until I get by him. Sometimes I try to DI away + airdodge through him. Sometimes I try to fastfall down and FW. Sometimes I just say **** it and give up, lol. I honestly dunno what's most effective, just that it's annoying.
His camp game..... eeeeeh. It's annoying but not horrible. He'll begin the match by charging his gyro and/or firing his laser..... that's pretty much a given with any ROB.
Gyro is slow, but a fully charged one hurts. If you catch one, throw it into the air. It'll depress him because he can't charge another until it falls and disappears, and it's one less thing for you to worry about. You can also try glide tossing if you're confident.
Lasers are just a nuisance, really. He'll use them a lot to interrupt FW if you have to recover or to just **** with you anytime you're open in the air but too far away for him to get to you. Planking ROBs will try to laser spam, but Din's makes it somewhat dangerous for them to try since Din's from behind will stage spike. Don't bother reflecting lasers. He'll just start angling them so that they won't hit him when they're reflected, and you'll be left with nothing but Naryu's cooldown.
Remember that when ROB is flying, he can't airdodge. He can still use his aerials, but if you can predict them, Din's and LKs will work well. You can also be brave and go for a spike, but iirc, his uair outranges our dair -- definitely outranges the sweetspot, at least. I guess you could try to FF down and trade, though.
Oh, and ROB's sort of easy to LK because of his size. *shrug*
I hope I did okay. ;-; Like I said, I only have decent experience, nothing crazy or super insightful.
ROB's ftilt will make you cry. From talking with Chibo, I think our fsmash outranges it by a hair, but it doesn't really matter since his ftilt comes out much faster. If you reverse stutter step an fsmash, you can occasionally get him to ftilt into your fsmash, but it works best as a mixup and not a solid strategy. Especially since he has disjoint on it. Not sure how Zelda's dtilt does against it, but I think his ftilt might outspace it?
I dunno, it's a close call on the ground in terms of range..... but his speed generally beats us.
His dtilt is also annoying and leads to more followups, but it's easier to outspace. If you don't DI, he can string dtilts together.
I know he has some combos/followups that lead to grabs on the ground, but I can't remember how they start. Just that he swings his robot arms. x.o His ftilt, dtilt, and jab are all dangerous, don't go near them!
Luckily, Zelda's light, so just be smart and unpredictable with how you DI.You wanna get ROB in the air and stay underneath him at all costs. He has a huge blind spot underneath him (his dair is ridiculously slow) and somewhat of a blind spot behind him, so those are your best places to position yourself. Usmash/utilt his landings and keep him up there.
Vice versa also applies..... he juggles the **** out of us with uair, fair, and grabbing/dsmashing/ftilting our landings. Stay out of the air in front or above him, but if you're behind him, his bair and nair are somewhat slow. So if you're in Zelda's nair range, you can beat him with speed. Keep in mind that his bair hits at his head, too, so avoid it at the front as well.
ROB can't outright kill very well. His best KO moves are nair and bair, in my experience, with occasional kills from usmash (usually off tech chasing you from underneath a platform). Dsmash is easy to DI and shouldn't kill til late..... his fsmash is weak. Fully charged gyro is strong, but DI will save you unless you're off-stage.
When you're at high percentages, he will spam SH nairs..... and they autocancel. It's irritating, but if you expect them and know how laggy they are, it's not so bad. Just remember that the hitbox comes back around..... don't let go of your shield too early, or you'll get hit with the end, which still has the power to kill you.
Usually ROB kills me with edgeguarding. His fair is quick, and he can fly, so if you're in a position where you need to FW, he'll try to fair spam you off the screen. I can't remember what I do vs. this specifically..... sometimes I just spam FW until I get by him. Sometimes I try to DI away + airdodge through him. Sometimes I try to fastfall down and FW. Sometimes I just say **** it and give up, lol. I honestly dunno what's most effective, just that it's annoying.
His camp game..... eeeeeh. It's annoying but not horrible. He'll begin the match by charging his gyro and/or firing his laser..... that's pretty much a given with any ROB.
Gyro is slow, but a fully charged one hurts. If you catch one, throw it into the air. It'll depress him because he can't charge another until it falls and disappears, and it's one less thing for you to worry about. You can also try glide tossing if you're confident.
Lasers are just a nuisance, really. He'll use them a lot to interrupt FW if you have to recover or to just **** with you anytime you're open in the air but too far away for him to get to you. Planking ROBs will try to laser spam, but Din's makes it somewhat dangerous for them to try since Din's from behind will stage spike. Don't bother reflecting lasers. He'll just start angling them so that they won't hit him when they're reflected, and you'll be left with nothing but Naryu's cooldown.
Remember that when ROB is flying, he can't airdodge. He can still use his aerials, but if you can predict them, Din's and LKs will work well. You can also be brave and go for a spike, but iirc, his uair outranges our dair -- definitely outranges the sweetspot, at least. I guess you could try to FF down and trade, though.
Oh, and ROB's sort of easy to LK because of his size. *shrug*
I hope I did okay. ;-; Like I said, I only have decent experience, nothing crazy or super insightful.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
It wasn't a lot but thank you for the advice Zelda forum in return I'll try to become a Sheik/Zelda main instead of just Sheik.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
Super thanks to Kaylo!
I feel a little better knowing I wasn't doing anything completely wrong at least. And now I have a little bit of a better idea. I think I just need to be able to practice the match up. more.
I feel a little better knowing I wasn't doing anything completely wrong at least. And now I have a little bit of a better idea. I think I just need to be able to practice the match up. more.
Bandit
Smash Lord
@Riot
KayLo is 100% correct, and I will try and add a few short things.
1) Fair Spam/Gimp: DI away and air dodge back through him then FW back to the stage. If you DI towards him, you will die.
2) Usmash beats all his aerials.
3) Don't be afraid to jump out while he is recovering. The only move that beats Dair is Uair, and if he doesn't start it in time, he gets spiked.
Might have more later...
KayLo is 100% correct, and I will try and add a few short things.
1) Fair Spam/Gimp: DI away and air dodge back through him then FW back to the stage. If you DI towards him, you will die.
2) Usmash beats all his aerials.
3) Don't be afraid to jump out while he is recovering. The only move that beats Dair is Uair, and if he doesn't start it in time, he gets spiked.
Might have more later...
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Zelda sucks, and I hate Toon Link.
Tell me how to beat him.
Besides "perfect shield all his projectiles," no ****. Between that and his zair, I can't even get close. Then he has a fast *** sword, and dtilting him is ****ing impossible.
EDIT: Fsmash is too slow on startup. Jab doesn't do ****. Usmash is too punishable. Nair gets outranged. Pretty much.... there's no way to approach this kid, but not approaching isn't an option (even more so than usual).
Tell me how to beat him.
Besides "perfect shield all his projectiles," no ****. Between that and his zair, I can't even get close. Then he has a fast *** sword, and dtilting him is ****ing impossible.
EDIT: Fsmash is too slow on startup. Jab doesn't do ****. Usmash is too punishable. Nair gets outranged. Pretty much.... there's no way to approach this kid, but not approaching isn't an option (even more so than usual).
AzNfinesse
Smash Journeyman
from my experience, the only way to really beat toon link is to out-camp him. Yes he has a good projectile game, but most toon links will be scared to go all out because of NL. even though it's a crappy reflector, it's a reflector nonetheless so he will be careful. a great way to deal with a lot of his projectiles is actually to use din's. All of his projectiles (except bomb) will clash with din's, and he usually approaches with his projectiles, so there's a decent chance that din's will hit him.
Avoid small stages like BF because TL will eat you alive, as you can't reset the flow of the fight. Take him to stages like Smashville where u can use the platform to counter-camp him, or castle seige, where TL can't hold a steady ground and force an approach.
his aerials will get you and will string you into damage racking combos so STAY GROUNDED. Especially watch for that zair as he can bait it into a SH nair or a grab or a bair or whatever attack he has that has less than 5 hit frames. If you see him SH into an air dodge, EXPECT a zair and either retreat or jump away from TL to avoid the combo. Hopefully, he'll attempt a grab and you'll be able to punish.
While grounded, you will for the most part dominate. His smashes are pretty easy to read so powershield it. Watch out for the stalled Fsmash. Try to hold the shield all the way through. If it'll probably shield poke or break your shield, try to roll behind him or time a good spotdodge. Also, pivot grab is your friend. TL will make a lot of spacing errors, as he will probably be the aggressor in this fight (unless you're dealing with an extremely campy TL, in which case you just need to wait him out). Do a lot of stutter steps and walking to throw off his spacing. Power shield when necessary and follow with Fsmashes and Usmashes.
TL is extremely prone to Fsmash and Usmash inbetween his aerial attacks, so try and time it perfectly and space it as well as you can. When TL is in the air, your best option is to retreat and reset the flow of the match, because TL will capitalize on every little mistake you make.
TL is a small target, so try not to go for the fairs and bairs as kill moves. Uair is your best kill option, as he will be in the air alot. Either that or Usmash/Utilt or Fsmash. TL is also very prone to dtilt combos, so keep an eye out for those opportunities.
Other than that, you need precise spacing and timing to beat him out.
Also note, this is what I've found after talking to my teams partner, who actually mains TL.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Bowser tactics.
Slowgirl is similar in the sense that she has an extremely difficult time getting in. Any attempt at trying to hit Toon Link through the spam will only be met with projectile gayness to the face. Bowser has this problem because he's huge, and Zelda has this problem because she's tall and slow as hell. Counter-camping is generally out of the question unless you have the lead, so you're obviously going to have to approach. The main thing that I generally focus on is the stage, or to put it simply, how much of the stage Toon Link has to work with. Toon Link becomes exponentially easier to deal with when he has less room to work with.
Get him cornered. The stage doesn't last forever, and it's not like Toon Link can just zip past you and run to the other side of the stage when he's running out of room. (Falco) I never really focus on hitting Toon Link, but rather, I focus on just moving forward while taking as little damage as possible. Powershielding and shielding in general is a given, so make use of it. Zair and projectiles are extremely difficult to punish, so I rarely attempt to do so unless I have an unnaturally long window to do it. Moving forward is my priority, not damage.
Once we've reached the ledge, then I go bananas on him. Toon Link's close range game, while still better then Zelda's, is still pretty medicore. Capitalize.
That's pretty much the case against any character.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
**** that, I'm going Pikachu.
Thanks for the help, though, guys. It just sounds like way too much work to be worth it.
Thanks for the help, though, guys. It just sounds like way too much work to be worth it.
GreyFox86
Smash Champion
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Ah, the choices to make against TL.
It's been a while since I played a TL. I don't play Santi enough times. =/
It's been a while since I played a TL. I don't play Santi enough times. =/
AzNfinesse
Smash Journeyman
apparently, the MU is 50/50 according to the TL players due to the reflector and our ground game...but i don't believe it 
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
50:50? Bull****.
Reflector doesn't help, and the TL I play rarely stays on the ground, so our so-called superior ground game (which is pretty easy to predict once you know how it works) doesn't do much.
If you're on the ground, you can't keep up with him. Zelda's ground speed is too slow.
If you're in the air, well, ****.
I used to go slightly worse than even with the TL in my crew before he figured out Zelda's flaws. Now it's not completely impossible, but the gap has gotten noticeably larger even when I try to lolmixitup.
Between constantly dodging projectiles, watching out for zair (which is **** near impossible to punish), and him spastically swinging his sword, it's hard to get in.
Even if I back him into a corner, then what? -_- I hit him once, he flies away, and I have to do that **** all over again. If I get him into the air, he can drop bombs and prevent me from staying directly underneath him. (He's too smart to attempt dair.) A faster uair would be really helpful here.
What do we have that can go against spaced bairs? Zair I've pretty much given up on countering..... ****'s impossible to punish if it's spaced correctly. But if he's not zairing, he either chucking **** at me or bairing.
@MrEh: the TL I play against loves the ledge. And with his bomb planking, there's not much I can do, so even pushing him to the edge of the stage doesn't do much. So, uh, ideas?
Reflector doesn't help, and the TL I play rarely stays on the ground, so our so-called superior ground game (which is pretty easy to predict once you know how it works) doesn't do much.
If you're on the ground, you can't keep up with him. Zelda's ground speed is too slow.
If you're in the air, well, ****.
I used to go slightly worse than even with the TL in my crew before he figured out Zelda's flaws. Now it's not completely impossible, but the gap has gotten noticeably larger even when I try to lolmixitup.
Between constantly dodging projectiles, watching out for zair (which is **** near impossible to punish), and him spastically swinging his sword, it's hard to get in.
Even if I back him into a corner, then what? -_- I hit him once, he flies away, and I have to do that **** all over again. If I get him into the air, he can drop bombs and prevent me from staying directly underneath him. (He's too smart to attempt dair.) A faster uair would be really helpful here.
What do we have that can go against spaced bairs? Zair I've pretty much given up on countering..... ****'s impossible to punish if it's spaced correctly. But if he's not zairing, he either chucking **** at me or bairing.
@MrEh: the TL I play against loves the ledge. And with his bomb planking, there's not much I can do, so even pushing him to the edge of the stage doesn't do much. So, uh, ideas?
AzNfinesse
Smash Journeyman
like i said....i'm going off of what my partner is saying. i'm gonna look into it a bit more at crew practice tomorrow.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Sweet. If you learn anything good.... definitely let me know.
I can always go Pika, but I like knowing as many MUs with Zelda as possible too.
I can always go Pika, but I like knowing as many MUs with Zelda as possible too.
MrEh
Smash Hero
This is the position that you need him to be in. Although it may seem annoying, having Toon Link on the ledge is amazing. His options are cut to shreds. When all he can do is chuck bombs at you, you'e golden.
Just sit there and prepare to shield. (or throw out Dins when he drops from the ledge)Toon Link is fairly limited on the ledge in how he can throw bombs at you. Any deviation from ledgedrop--->double jump---> bomb toss can be punished.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Camp with Din's.
This is not a foolproof stategy nor will this be effective while Tlink closes in on you. I am suggesting you use Din's to at a point where his projectiles are useless and he has to approach you. If he goes to a spot where Din's become less effective I suggest you reposition your self to get the best use of your Din's fire in the process rendering his projectiles and his Zair useless and force an approach. If you have no where to retreat to then start PS then projectiles.
WickedDeceit
Smash Cadet
KayLo! my best friend mains toon link but I haven't played him in over a month. He gets back from his Winter vacation on Tuesday so when I play him again I'll be able to post a few things.
EDIT: And sorry AL, but Din's is practically useless in this match-up. Toon link just has to stand there and his hylian shield protects him.
EDIT: And sorry AL, but Din's is practically useless in this match-up. Toon link just has to stand there and his hylian shield protects him.
GreyFox86
Smash Champion
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The MU against Tink I think is 65-35 in Tinks favor. There's not alot Zelda can do but sit back and wait for Tink to approach which doesn't happen if Tink knows he is against Zelda
But that's just my opinion. =/
But that's just my opinion. =/
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Then turn it into a standing match. You don't have to approach until you lose the lead. I could be mistake but can't you explode it behind him and it will hit him?
If you guys look at all of the opponents options overstate them then look at Zelda's weakness it's no wonder why the match ups are so bad.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
*facepalm*
Din's is next to useless in this matchup. That's one thing I know for sure after playing it a ton.
Din's is next to useless in this matchup. That's one thing I know for sure after playing it a ton.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
Isn't Din's next to useless in most matchups?
GreyFox86
Smash Champion
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Not in most cause its mostly used to bait into attacks. In the MU against Tink, ROB, and Pit, Din's is completely useless.
Your really better off running into their attacks than trying to out camp them with Din's.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Haha. No.
But you won't have the lead. Toon Link and his arrows/bombs/boomerang/Zair will.
*facepalm*
No. Just...no. Din's is usable in plenty of matchups. Saying it's useless in most matchups is a huge understatement. It becomes much less useful against characters that projectile camp Zelda to the max, but even so, Din's always has a purpose.
That being said, Din's is usable against Toon Link. Just not for counter-camping. Using it while he's offstage, planking, or in the air is an option.
WickedDeceit
Smash Cadet
Zelda will lose a standing match against Toon Link. Zelda's camping game against toon link is nonexistant, and if you try to stand and throw Din's fire he'll have you from 0 to 70% with arrows and bombs in a matter of seconds. Toon link's shield will protect him from Din's fire regardless of where it explodes around his body, as long as he's standing still.
Bandit
Smash Lord
Work inside on TL and use your quick moves (dsmash, dtilt, usmash) to punish him. Don't bother getting into a projectile battle, but pressure him with dins off stage.
AzNfinesse
Smash Journeyman
for some reason, i've never had an issue with counter-camping toon link, it's when he gains the momentum back is what screws me over a lot.
oh, and KayLo we had the practice yesterday and we talked about what everyone said here, and basically my teammate said that zelda does have a counter-camp option on certain stages.
my teammate has a lot of trouble against me when i cp smashville and use the upper platform. TL can approach people no problem from the air while you're on the ground, but when people are above him and he's trying to use his projectiles, his options get SEVERELY limited, making it a lot easier to read.
also, you'll notice that between every single one of his projectile spam and his aerial/zair combos, there will be a large gaping hole where zelda can easily punish TL. i actually recorded some of the matches, and it shows a lot of the holes that TL has in his combos.
overall, we figured out that the only way zelda can win is 100% patience.
- when he hits you and there's no opportunity for a punish, shield and run away/din's retreat to keep pressure on him.
- use mainly usmash/fsmash for damage racking, as it has the best priority over most of TL's attacks. space them properly so that TL's priority can't punish you.
- keep dtilt as fresh as possible. avoid using it until you are sure it's going to lead into a dtilt>dsmash or dtilt>hyphen usmash or dtilt>utilt
- as stated earlier, when TL is planking or over the edge, din's. it severely limits his options and gives you an opportunity to stage spike him if he isn't careful.
- when going for the kill, you won't be doing typical zelda moves such as bair/fair (unless u can read like a champ). you want to go for the utilt or dsmash kills.
it's a difficult matchup, but my partner still believes that the MU for TL/Zelda is not as bad as the boards claim it to be because of zelda's priority and range on the ground in close range and the fact that TL's projectiles don't have it's full effect on zelda because of many factors (din's, nayru's, etc.)
oh, and KayLo we had the practice yesterday and we talked about what everyone said here, and basically my teammate said that zelda does have a counter-camp option on certain stages.
my teammate has a lot of trouble against me when i cp smashville and use the upper platform. TL can approach people no problem from the air while you're on the ground, but when people are above him and he's trying to use his projectiles, his options get SEVERELY limited, making it a lot easier to read.
also, you'll notice that between every single one of his projectile spam and his aerial/zair combos, there will be a large gaping hole where zelda can easily punish TL. i actually recorded some of the matches, and it shows a lot of the holes that TL has in his combos.
overall, we figured out that the only way zelda can win is 100% patience.
- when he hits you and there's no opportunity for a punish, shield and run away/din's retreat to keep pressure on him.
- use mainly usmash/fsmash for damage racking, as it has the best priority over most of TL's attacks. space them properly so that TL's priority can't punish you.
- keep dtilt as fresh as possible. avoid using it until you are sure it's going to lead into a dtilt>dsmash or dtilt>hyphen usmash or dtilt>utilt
- as stated earlier, when TL is planking or over the edge, din's. it severely limits his options and gives you an opportunity to stage spike him if he isn't careful.
- when going for the kill, you won't be doing typical zelda moves such as bair/fair (unless u can read like a champ). you want to go for the utilt or dsmash kills.
it's a difficult matchup, but my partner still believes that the MU for TL/Zelda is not as bad as the boards claim it to be because of zelda's priority and range on the ground in close range and the fact that TL's projectiles don't have it's full effect on zelda because of many factors (din's, nayru's, etc.)
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Hooray, I'd love to see some of those vids, because I've never seen this "hole" you're talking about. Besides when he's backed into a corner, I haven't witnessed any significant holes in TL's spam that I can consistently punish unless he severely messes up his spacing.
Not with Zelda, anyway. With Pikachu, yeah. Zelda's always been too slow or awkwardly positioned, though.
I'd also love to see your use of fsmash..... I'm starting to dislike this move more and more, tbh. It's still one of her most useful attacks, but it's so easy to outspeed on reaction (16 frames is really slow, if you think about it), and a considerable number of the people I play against can SDI out of it consistently now.
Or maybe I'm just in a Zelda slump. I'll wait to see your vids. x.x
My feeling on the MU is that it's one where the TL will get better at it with practice, not the Zelda. He has waaaaay more options to mix it up, way more opportunities to punish, and Zelda can only do so much effectively.
Not with Zelda, anyway. With Pikachu, yeah. Zelda's always been too slow or awkwardly positioned, though.
I'd also love to see your use of fsmash..... I'm starting to dislike this move more and more, tbh. It's still one of her most useful attacks, but it's so easy to outspeed on reaction (16 frames is really slow, if you think about it), and a considerable number of the people I play against can SDI out of it consistently now.
Or maybe I'm just in a Zelda slump. I'll wait to see your vids. x.x
My feeling on the MU is that it's one where the TL will get better at it with practice, not the Zelda. He has waaaaay more options to mix it up, way more opportunities to punish, and Zelda can only do so much effectively.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
I need to use FSmash more often tbh. Yeah, 16 frames is pretty slow (about the same as my reaction time, which is bad compared to other smashers), but there are plenty of slow moves which are still useful (Peach's Fair comes to mind). The main uses of this move are shield pressuring/poking. If you space well, you can hit their shield with FSmash in such a way that only the last hit connects, and of course that has good killing power.
I also like to use it for 'evading and countering', where your opponent will jab (for example), your FSmash will pull you away from the hitbox, and then you launch back with a counterattack. They might forget to SDI due to surprise, though that's not too likely. Oh, and bait and punish tactics. Those are always fun.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Um.
Okay.
I knew all that already, but thanks?
Okay.
I knew all that already, but thanks?
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
Is all that not enough to make it a decent move?Um.
Okay.
I knew all that already, but thanks?
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
*sigh*
However, the fact remains that once someone's played against Zelda a ton, they start to realize that there are many ways to counter it on reaction whether they're shielding or not. I'm talking before the hitbox even comes out, so hitting their shield is irrelevant to that point.
It's also different from Peach's fair in a lot of ways, largely because of the fact that Peach is highly mobile while fairing. With Zelda, once you start the move, you're committed and rooted to one spot. Comparing the speed of the two is a moot point.
But again: I never said fsmash is a bad move. In case you misread what I wrote. Again.
All I said was that I'm disliking it more, not that it's a bad move.
However, the fact remains that once someone's played against Zelda a ton, they start to realize that there are many ways to counter it on reaction whether they're shielding or not. I'm talking before the hitbox even comes out, so hitting their shield is irrelevant to that point.
It's also different from Peach's fair in a lot of ways, largely because of the fact that Peach is highly mobile while fairing. With Zelda, once you start the move, you're committed and rooted to one spot. Comparing the speed of the two is a moot point.
But again: I never said fsmash is a bad move. In case you misread what I wrote. Again.
Veggie123
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, if they get close enough before you pull a fsmash off, they can just jab/tilt/grab you out of it (Walking towards Zelda is too good) I guess theoretically that's where dtilt/dsmash/usmash come in, but I still overuse fsmash :D
Bandit
Smash Lord
Fsmash is an intimidation move. People run into it all the time, but if they are close to you Veggie has it right (dtilt, dsmash, usmash). Dtilt should be your favorite option and not Usmash since it can be shield grabbed pretty easily. Dtilt is much harder to deal with and it is a nice shield pressure/poke.
:bandit:
:bandit:
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
There's no way he can pull bomb throw bomb and totally by pass Zelda's DF. It's not as though his bombs come out frame one like Snakes nades. You can also use Din's to explode the bomb or cancel the arrow. It's not really as grim as you're making it out. If Tlink just stands there and lets his shield do the work eventually he'll fall off the edge. Then you can close a little distance and continue until however you see fit. But no one is just going to stand there like that.
MrEh
Smash Hero
AzNfinesse
Smash Journeyman
I think the thing is I use Fsmash differently from most zeldas. I use it more for spacing and positioning more than for intimidation. I'll be using a lot of empty Fsmashes followed by jabs or pivot grabs, considering those are my fastest options out of fsmash other than dtilt (which i'll only save for kill potentials or lock opportunities). i'm not really your typical zelda, but i guess what i do works well for me.
@ kaylo: I'll upload the vids when i'm done with work tomorrow.
@ kaylo: I'll upload the vids when i'm done with work tomorrow.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I do the same with fsmashes. I stutter step fsmash a lot. I think I started pivot grabbing more with Zelda because of something you said in the Xat a while back. The only problem with fsmash for spacing is the slow start up.
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