~ Zelda's Matchups ~ (obselete thread/check stickies)

[zeldspazz]

Thats why I said much.
Obviously she'd still need to approach sometimes, but a good comping game to utilize her defensive game would be amazing, Id want that more than an approach imo.

 

[MrEh]

Thats why I said much.
Obviously she'd still need to approach sometimes

Then she'd still fail, because her approach options would still be bad. Unless her camping is good enough to the point where she would never have to approach at all (an aerial Hyper Viper Beam for example), taking approach options over camping options is probably always a better choice. Especially since her approach options were nonexistent in the first place. Having a decent approach would be a godsend.

but a good comping game to utilize her defensive game would be amazing

It would be nice, but it wouldn't be amazing. Zelda is too flawed of a character to be amazing by simply having a better projectile. (Unless of course, it were something like an aerial Hyper Viper Beam.)

I'd want that more than an approach imo.

There are two things that will make most people think otherwise.

This.

And This.

Having a better projectile doesn't help against either of these situations since Zelda will either be out-camped or have her projectile nullified. : This assumes that her projectile can still be absorbed by the Bucket though, and that Falco and Fox can still fire faster then she can. (which they should) Unless of course, Zelda had an aerial Hyper Viper Beam. But if that was the case, Zelda would be the best character in the game. No contest.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah, but, I do see the point.

if she had a much better projectile, she could be a contender with an only marginally better approach game.


as it is she has neither.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231077

Link is very interested in Zelda.

Wait you already knew that, well Link boards want to talk about the match-up. Sheik is included in this since some Zelda or Sheik players use both.

Feel free to stop by.

 

[choknater]

awww lol :C can someone bump the zelda vs ic's rediscussion thread

i posted something new but i cant bump it cuz it would be a double post

kata edited my post into the previous post

can someone bump it? i want to discuss the new info and the matchup some more

 

[Berserker.]

Zelda's match ups are horrible. It's worst than most F-tier character's match ups. Zelda only has 9 out of 40 match ups in her favor O_o

 

[Kataefi]

awww lol :C can someone bump the zelda vs ic's rediscussion thread

i posted something new but i cant bump it cuz it would be a double post

kata edited my post into the previous post

I'm not that strict! =p As long as it's on point I don't really care for double posts, unless it's spammy. But I'm sure it won't be. I normally just merge themtogether. I'll bump it for you though.

 

[choknater]

ok :D thanks

im really into that matchup cuz its basically the only zelda matchup i care about LOL, plus pikachu. i use sheik for everything else

 

[Berserker.]

I like my chart too. lol

The Yoshi and Samus match up is wrong and Peach VS Zelda is only 55:45 Peach, it isn't that bad as 65:35, and 80:20 MK? 80:20, seriously, it should just be 70:30 and her match ups are worst than Jigglypuffs you guys are mean to Zelda

 

[MrEh]

That was only my opinion (and some of it was NinjaLink's), and thus does not reflect the overall opinion of the Zelda boards.

That being said, I believe several of these ratios need to be lowered. ROB, Lucario, Dedede, Falco, and Wario should all be about 5 points lower. Those characters beat Zelda harder then this chart makes it out to be. Olimar needs to be lowered by like, 20 points. That matchup is impossible.

The Yoshi and Samus match up is wrong

This means nothing unless you explain why.

and 80:20 MK? 80:20, seriously, it should just be 70:30

No. It's really that bad.

you guys are mean to Zelda

It's not about being mean. Being realistic isn't being mean.

 

[mountain_tiger]

The Yoshi and Samus match up is wrong and Peach VS Zelda is only 55:45 Peach, it isn't that bad as 65:35, and 80:20 MK? 80:20, seriously, it should just be 70:30 and her match ups are worst than Jigglypuffs you guys are mean to Zelda

Peach isn't quite 35:65, but it's definitely 40:60. Good Peaches are difficult for Zelda to get around...

That being said, I believe several of these ratios need to be lowered. ROB, Lucario, Dedede, Falco, and Wario should all be about 5 points lower. Those characters beat Zelda harder then this chart makes it out to be. Olimar needs to be lowered by like, 20 points. That matchup is impossible.

I agree with Falco and Wario being lower (I don't have enough experience against ROB or Lucario to be able to judge on them...), but I don't see King Dedede being 40:60. IMO, that matchup is 55:45, 50:50 at the very least... As for Olimar, I'll take your word for it. I've nly played scrubby Olimars...

I also think that Jigglypuff and Ganondorf are both 5 points higher in Zelda's favour...

 

[zeldspazz]

I second MrEh's claim of Peach and Falco being 35:65, DDD being 50:50, and I dont believe we've rediscussed Lucario yet, so Im sure thats the case too.

ROB and Wario not sure, havent fought a good one in a while, in my experience ROB isnt that difficult though. Id imagine Wario would be if he aircamped enough, its hard enough for high tiers to get in :\

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i could have swore we rediscussed it a little while ago with the lucario boards didn't we?

 

[zeldspazz]

Perhaps. I dont tend to go to too many different character boards for matchups.

 

[KayLo!]

Can we PLEASE do DDD next, Kataefi? I'm so tired of people thinking it's even. ****'s not even.

 

[zeldspazz]

Then do TL after that? I dont like TL

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Then do TL after that? I dont like TL

you'll like him more than lucario, no one likes Lucarios....

 

[mountain_tiger]

Can we PLEASE do DDD next, Kataefi? I'm so tired of people thinking it's even. ****'s not even.

What do you think the matchup is (out of curiosity)?

 

[Kataefi]

Guys... DDD is already up:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235580

The point is to go through all matchups and then revisit them after. Rob, Pit and Sonic are coming to a close now so we'll move on to 3 new characters. As we're going through matchups, past matchups can be revisited by their respective thread at anytime - there shouldn't be a fear of bumping or doubleposting as long as it's on point.

 

[zeldspazz]

I like how Kaylo did her board's MU numbers.

I dont like the 5 point ratio system.

 

[MrEh]

I like how Kaylo did her board's MU numbers.

I dont like the 5 point ratio system.

Number in general are stupid and unnecessary.

Getting a precise number is pointless, so most of the time I'd rather there be none at all. I don't need numbers to tell me that a matchup is bad. Just say "this matchup is hard" and move on.

 

[KayLo!]

While I agree that numbers are pointless in the long run, the fact is that boards need a quick visual way to tell new players which MUs are good and bad.

It'd be pretty unhelpful to just have a list of, "This MU is bad. This MU is good. This MU is kiiiinda good, but it can be bad sometimes." Having a standardized system (i.e., the commonly accepted ratio system) is a quick, easy-to-understand, visually pleasing way to tell someone how good or bad the MU is.

It's primarily for people who aren't familiar with many MUs or who are newer to the competitive scene. It also eliminates questions of, "How not good is it? Is it better than ____ MU or worse?" Good and bad aren't very descriptive.

We didn't break the 5-point system for the sake of being nitpicky. It was for the sake of relativity between different characters, because it's very rare that two MUs are the exact same difficulty.

*shrug*

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Number in general are stupid and unnecessary.

Getting a precise number is pointless, so most of the time I'd rather there be none at all. I don't need numbers to tell me that a matchup is bad. Just say "this matchup is hard" and move on.

I think the numbers should have words to go along with it. Even slight disadvantage slight advantage advantage and disadvantage. That makes the match up better.

@ Kaylo I don't think breaking the 5 point rule is good just because of the fact that at the end of the day people like simple things. It's easier to know that a match up is slighty in your favor at 55:45 as opposed to a 57:43 match up or whatever numbers you have ya know ? Also thats not to say that just because snake vs pika is as easy as pika vs falco even though both match ups are in pika's favor. It falls onto the player to be able to play the match up at a level that makes the number more believable. Unless of course you have ratio's like Marth which is all bull****.

 

[MrEh]

For the record, my post wasn't specifically targeting your precise point system. It was just refering to numbering in general.

 

[Kataefi]

We can do that!

So let's settle on a good points system for everyone to use! I want to hear everyone's opinion so we can organise the matchups a little easier!

 

[zeldspazz]

I agree with AL that words are easier to interpret than numbers for some people.

I think it "illistrates" the matchup better than numbers do, and then we can decide and say "this matchup is hard" as MrEh says and actually say that.

But, since its more universal to use numbers atm, I think that doing precise numbers is nice dispite it being unnecessary.

 

[Kataefi]

Okay let's firstly settle on matchup systems to use:

- 5 Point Numbers
- Precise Numbers
- Ranged Numbers (A range of numbering highlighting the worst ratio to the best ratio.)
- Words
- Symbols
- Matchupzzz suck!!11!

I want everyone to pick a first choice from this list and just simply bold (you don't have to, but I plan on tallying everything).

Then everyone can pick a second choice of preference.

I'll go first:

I'm quite a fan of the 5 point system for simplicity, but I also like having a words to accompany this.

1) 5 point system
2) Words

Once we get everyone's preferences we can finally solve the world's biggest problems.

 

[zeldspazz]

Lol @ my opinion changing

I personally <3 ranged matchups. Idk why, but since they are always changing, its seems like you never pinpoint it at 1 number for a long period of time. It also helps settle some disputes between numbers, like if 1 side says 40-60 and another says 35-65, you can say the range is 35:65-40:60.

So I say:

1) Ranged Numbers
2) Words

 

[KayLo!]

For this forum in particular?

1) 5 point system
2) Words

I don't think enough people play Zelda at a high level for us to use the precise number system.

 

[MrEh]

I don't think enough people here use Zelda at a high level to even NEED points at all.


There's no reason to even discuss matchups when half the information we say is not applicable in a wifi environment anyway. We could just say "spam Fsmash and Dsmash at close range and throw out random kicks" and that would be effective.

 

[-Mars-]

Soooooo are we done discussing matchups because this guy^ says so??? Lmao.

 

[zeldspazz]

Ive been wondering the same thing.....huge inactivity in the MU threads. Probably scared people away who mostly wifi like me

 

[KayLo!]

I'm waiting for Kata to put up new threads, lol. The old discussions've pretty much been done to death.

 

[-Mars-]

Hey Zeldspazz I saw <3 play some Pit/MK player named Ramen on livestream yesterday.....is that the one guy in your wifi crew? He's pretty good.

 

[zeldspazz]

It might be. His name is Ramen. He went Pit and Metaknight at his last tourney and got 7th out of about 40 iirc. Ill check the thread and see if <3 was there

EDIT: Yup, it must have been. Ramen must have lost though cus <3 got 4th and Ramen got 7th. But he did mention he beat CHaz who apparently is one of the best Marths in Florida, so he was really excited. He also says Sheiks make his rage so that might have to do with it xD

 

[KayLo!]

Lol, I know a few people who've lost to him online..... they always have positive things to say about him and his playstyle.

If only I didn't have a crap wifi connection.

 

[-Mars-]

He actually didn't play <3 in tourny. I just watched a friendly set of the on the stream. Ramen won the first game Pit-Sheik on FD but 3 made a lot of mistakes, they went back to FD and <3 won so Ramen went MK 3rd game lol and won.

<3 said he was glad he didn't play him in tourny though because he has very little MK experience.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah sure! Who are people hoping for? I remember mountain had a request but I've forgotten now. Anyways lets put out another 3.

_

Changes to OP:

zelda/pit set to 45/55?
zelda/sonic set to 45/55 or was it 40/60?
zelda/ICs set to 50/50 / 45/55? Apparently top players disagree with it being in Zelda's favour and I can certainly see that - IC matchup can be bumped for discussion on this.
zelda/rob concluded at 45/55, I'll reference both scores and just make quotes from Sudai/anyone experienced in the matchup.
DDD's to be erased so we can rediscuss at a later date when we are all lovely and getting along <3

Bump those necessary threads if anyone has a problem.

_

Ideas to advance this thread:

- I was thinking of hunting down top zeldas in the xat and speaking to them but making notes on what they say about a particular matchup. Stolen directly from the peach boards actually, and I think it's quite a good idea. Especially to those that don't visit the boards as much anymore.

Thoughts on this?

edit: I thought love had good MK experience? I remember him saying something like the MK/Sheik matchup might not be as bad as people thought...

 

[zeldspazz]

@Mars: Ah ok. He went with the MK to win huh Im surprised he didnt go Marth or something. Hes been using Marth a lot less lately.

@KayLo!: What astounds me is that Ramen does really really well online and still keeps his offline game intact. He also doesnt usually arrow spam, which makes playing him on wifi A LOT more enjoyable hehe. I can almost go even with him with Zelda (I usually get him to his last stock but he seems to get the last hit in before me ) and last time I went ZSS on his Pit I won a couple. Overall playing him is just really fun and helped me get a lot better. He plays practically every top tier pretty well so its good practice.

 

[-Mars-]

edit: I thought love had good MK experience? I remember him saying something like the MK/Sheik matchup might not be as bad as people thought...

Love? Haha his name is lessthanthree but yea every Sheik main i've really talked to that goes to tournaments and has a good understanding of the matchup says it's 4-6. <3 gets to play people like Siebrik and RedHalberd.....but not often so that's why I think he complains about the lack of Meta experience xD.

@Mars: Ah ok. He went with the MK to win huh Im surprised he didnt go Marth or something. Hes been using Marth a lot less lately.

@KayLo!: What astounds me is that Ramen does really really well online and still keeps his offline game intact. He also doesnt usually arrow spam, which makes playing him on wifi A LOT more enjoyable hehe. I can almost go even with him with Zelda (I usually get him to his last stock but he seems to get the last hit in before me ) and last time I went ZSS on his Pit I won a couple. Overall playing him is just really fun and helped me get a lot better. He plays practically every top tier pretty well so its good practice.

Lot's of good players play Wifi. Only thing i've found is that Wifi creates a few bad habits but i'm still a firm believer in that Wifi is a better training tool than computers. Like i'll dsmash with SHeik and fsmash with Zelda on wifi more than I will in real life, hell I even use Dins on wifi....or you'll see like Snake players ftilt A LOT more on wifi.

I really don't think Wifi hampers your offline ability all that much as long as you have somebody you can play offline with regurlarly.

Edit: I personally would like to do Kirby, Squirtle, and Jiggs since these are all matchups I would more than likely go heavy Zelda in.