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Zelda- Perfect Snake Counter?

FatJackieChan

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I think that Zelda may be able to take down Snake easily. (If that is known.... I am new here and I'm still glad I picked up on it.) Her Din's Fire can hit Snake much faster than the missile, and even if one of Snake's projectiles got to here, she can easily reflect it. She is fast and has a pretty good melee game. Here tilts are great and Her smashes aren't bad either. I think that Snake doesn't stand a chance against this mighty princess!
 

Rykoshet

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She doesnt fair badly against snake. Then again no one does if they have even half a brain. He doesn't flat out destroy much of anyone since all of his stuff is either telegraphed or circumstantial. If you learn to SDI properly, snake isn't really much more than a 60:40 on anyone.
 

Kataefi

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She's disadvantaged against him 40:60 though. This is because of his weight and power. But she does have tools to give him problems, mainly his recovery is open to her sweetspot ^^ If she plays safely against his tilts and avoids nades like the plague, it's manageable but not nearly in her favour as you might think =(
 

TLMSheikant

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10DDDsandrobs. Zelda doesnt fair that bad as say cfalcon does but its one of her hardest matchups. I think?
 

Kataefi

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Not really... GnW and Olimar are harder. She just needs to take care against Snake and she'll give him a run for his money.
 

sniperworm

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As long as you don't run into all of his moves, Zelda does okay (so basically do the exact opposite of what I do). There's no way that she's a counter though, not a chance in the world.

She doesnt fair badly against snake. Then again no one does if they have even half a brain.
Shoot, no wonder I get destroyed by Snake. Curse this quarter brain of mine...
 

SuSa

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Olimar is the perfect Snake Counter.

Take us to Weegee's Mansion and just spam c-stick and grabs if we get close.

Cereal.

Zelda is harder then most, but not a counter. Also, G&W seems to be easy as hell if you space correctly.... I'd rathers face a G&W then a Zelda anyday.

/coming from a Snake main/
 

FatJackieChan

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Thanks

It's nice to know that although it would work on my friends that it wouldn't in competitive. If Zelda isn't a counter... who is? I can't seem to figure it out.

Off Topic: I found an mediocre method to approach enemies, but it could be better or worse than I realize. I was fighting against Wolf, he kept his reflector up, and I found my self taking a few steps in between each Din's Fire. Then when I got close enough, I did a dash attack which sent him into the air, and from that I u-aired him to his death.
 

-Mars-

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Snake is one of Zelda's harder matchups. He kills earlier than you, outcamps you, racks damage easier........the only thing Zelda really has on Snake is she can actually handle his priority with dtilt and her fsmash outranges him.
 

KillerSOS

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Olimar is the perfect Snake Counter.

Take us to Weegee's Mansion and just spam c-stick and grabs if we get close.

Cereal.

Zelda is harder then most, but not a counter. Also, G&W seems to be easy as hell if you space correctly.... I'd rathers face a G&W then a Zelda anyday.

/coming from a Snake main/
QFT!

Olimar is built to take out Snake.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Sheik does much better against snake than zelda. Zelda actually has a lot of problems against snake. sheik, on the other hand, gives snake ALL KINDS of trouble, sheik just has trouble sealing the deal, zelda can do that much better.

Using both seems to be the best option
 

Z1GMA

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I find it pretty fun to juggle unexperienced Snakes from 0% to around 80% using her Usmash..

Whats the best thing Snake can do When Zelda juggles him with Usmash over and over again?
 

FatJackieChan

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Thanks a bunch. I would have foolishly rushed into a tourney using Zelda and gotten owned. As a follow up question, does Zelda counter any one in the high tier or more importantly, the top tier?
 

Brinzy

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Zelda is very good against DDD and Falco. She is pretty effective vs. Robot. She gives the Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong and Kirby some trouble. Pikachu, Wario, Wolf, DK and Pit need to be a bit cautious around her, though you should be a bit mindful of them as well. MK is a winnable fight, but you need to play smart. Marth and Lucario can be difficult fights, so watch out. Never let Zelda fight G&W.
 

Kataefi

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Urgh... G&W =( I don't find Lucario all that hard really, he just becomes incredibly annoying once he's at high percents
 

CSBrokaw

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Zelda could probably juggle Snake at lower percents to rack up damage, and could easily Heel of Justice a recovering Snake off of the stage if the Snake doesn't prepare properly. That's the only advantage I can think of besides F-Smash range. A good Snake can avoid Din's Fire consistently.
 

goodkid

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The Snake match-up is more like 55:45 or 50:50, Zelda isn't that disadvantaged in this match-up, she can gimp & KO Snake at around the same percents, but maybe a little bit more, really this match-up is 55:45, all you have to do is play smart, avoid grenades, remember the locations of the C4s so you don't run into it, & don't rush in, because of f-tilt.
 

Kataefi

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I was thinking the same thing goodkid! Ryoko's right as well, Snake's moves are heavily telelgraphed. I can roughly predict already he'll grenade spam from afar and jab or Ftilt when close. It's just carelessness that gets Zelda killed if she rushes things.
 

FatJackieChan

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So if Zelda counters so many top tier characters, why doesn't she do well on the tiers? From what I can tell, her close combat is great as long as you aren't the one approaching and she has a great projectile, what's the problem?
 

Dragoomba

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Sheik does much better against snake than zelda. Zelda actually has a lot of problems against snake. sheik, on the other hand, gives snake ALL KINDS of trouble, sheik just has trouble sealing the deal, zelda can do that much better.

Using both seems to be the best option
I actually couldn't agree more. I believe that Shiek was nerfed and Zelda was buffed this much intentionally since they are actually made to be a team together. I don't see why someone would just main one at a time.
 

Kataefi

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She doesn't counter, she's just advantaged. Matchup-wise she's quite good.

Her weight and recovery really limit her. Which is why she's mid tier. I reckon she's high tier once her sweetspots become more consistent.
 

Brinzy

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So if Zelda counters so many top tier characters, why doesn't she do well on the tiers? From what I can tell, her close combat is great as long as you aren't the one approaching and she has a great projectile, what's the problem?
Her projectile isn't that good. Her recovery, outside of distance traveled and being safe from Point A to Point B, isn't that great. She's kinda light and has relatively poor mobility. Her ground mobility is bad; her aerial mobility is limited by her actual aerials. Din's Fire is a poor move. Her grab is bad, and even if you do get the grab, the pummel and throw isn't too great; they throw too far to be followed up from, yet they're not strong enough to KO at a reasonable %, b-throw at the edge aside.

Hardly anyone uses her, and her hardest fights (G&W, Olimar, Marth) are relatively common at higher levels of play.
 

FatJackieChan

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Her projectile isn't that good. Her recovery, outside of distance traveled and being safe from Point A to Point B, isn't that great. She's kinda light and has relatively poor mobility. Her ground mobility is bad; her aerial mobility is limited by her actual aerials. Din's Fire is a poor move. Her grab is bad, and even if you do get the grab, the pummel and throw isn't too great; they throw too far to be followed up from, yet they're not strong enough to KO at a reasonable %, b-throw at the edge aside.

Hardly anyone uses her, and her hardest fights (G&W, Olimar, Marth) are relatively common at higher levels of play.
Oh, that makes sense, but her recovery, the attack that ends with it has decent knock-back, and it goes a great distance, what isn't good about the move?
 

Brinzy

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It is very easily telegraphed, for one. The set distance can set up edgehogging for the opponent if they just watch Zelda. If she doesn't land on the stage, the lag and vulnerability afterwards is terrible. It's also a pretty slow move. It's not a bad move in general, but it's definitely an average recovery.
 

FatJackieChan

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You really know your stuff! That makes sense. I am more of a Marth main but was having trouble with Snake, I thought Zelda was a solution but that clears things up a bit. I really need to find my character...
 

Brinzy

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If Snake is troubling you, look at DDD and Olimar. I hear that Pikachu and Toon Link are ok, but I'm not sure. Sheik seems to cover Zelda's weaknesses if you still like the idea of using her against Snake.
 

DarkThundah

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Her projectile isn't that good. Her recovery, outside of distance traveled and being safe from Point A to Point B, isn't that great. She's kinda light and has relatively poor mobility. Her ground mobility is bad; her aerial mobility is limited by her actual aerials. Din's Fire is a poor move. Her grab is bad, and even if you do get the grab, the pummel and throw isn't too great; they throw too far to be followed up from, yet they're not strong enough to KO at a reasonable %, b-throw at the edge aside.

Hardly anyone uses her, and her hardest fights (G&W, Olimar, Marth) are relatively common at higher levels of play.

Oh god when you say it like that...so depressing. Interestingly enough I feel that the joy of landing a LK, or spiking someone to their death at low percentages is enough to for me to stick with her.

A good snake is common, its not to hard to be good w/MK, win w/falco or DDD. But when you see a good Zelda own, its an ownage the likes of which have rarely been seen. Plus I like it when you play people and they automatically think, "alright! look at this noob, hes Zelda. This is gunna be over faster than a jackrabbit on a treadmill", and then they get destroyed.

For all her faults, don't give up hold strong.

Sorry for turning this "snake counter" question into a zelda patriotism post.
 

FatJackieChan

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It's cool. I kinda get that feeling with Zelda too. That actually really makes want to play Zelda when I'm not gonna be that newb getting beat faster than a jackrabbit on a treadmill. Thanks for the help!
 

Kataefi

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On the bright side - she has beastly aerials on sweetspot, a USmash with insane priority, just insane priority in general, and some of the most potent killpower in the game - Utilt, Uair, Fair, Bair, and her DSmash destroys average recoveries. She's also blessed with Dtilt, which locks and sets up for a kill.

She all balances out, which makes her mid tier, though I can see low of high tier to be honest if she's used right. Look at ninjalink and DM getting their sweetspots consistent and right, they absolutely own.
 

FatJackieChan

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I don't know who they are but she does have a lot of potential. If only she had better match-ups...
 

Kataefi

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She has tons of potential, and she has very good matchups. There's more to a matchup than just numbers. Mk is said to be 40:60 his advantage, but Zelda just inherently has a very difficult moveset to deal with - so it's anyone's match really. I think we say 60:40 because he's MK, the best character in the game, but I believe it truly is around the 45:55 mark if the match is played right. Also, the more I fight snake, the easier he becomes. I'm not saying the matchup's easy, but I'm starting to see that he's just as telegraphed as her royal highness.

There's only 2 characters I reckon in the game who will truly give her a lot of trouble - GnW and Olimar. The former is on the decline in the tournament scene (so I've heard), and Olimar is of medium popularity. She also goes even or owns a lot of the higher tiers.

She just has a naturally good moveset, and her moveset is only half her whole moveset. Sheik comes with her for a reason, otherwise they wouldn't be interchangeable. The duo have an even easier time in this game when learned right and should definitely be solid high tier when both are combined. I just don't know why they aren't considered together this time around in the tier list considering transform is now a very viable move, unlike in melee.

EDIT:: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206241

you'll find ninjalink and DM here as well as other really good zeldas
 

Villi

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Problem with Zeldas is they think she's better than she is. Confidence is one thing, but ignoring weaknesses or creating false strengths is just one more way to secure a loss. Understanding her weaknesses is the best way to ensure not being in situations where they can be exploited.
 

Brinzy

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Right, and that's exactly why whenever it's time to name her biggest weaknesses, I don't hold back. It's not to make her seem crappy, but it's just to show the things that she does not have going for her because you eventually reach a point where you have to do something with your weaknesses because everyone will know how to take advantage of them.

This is virtually impossible for me on WiFi, but learning how to use Farore's better such as finding slightly different ways to recover (as well as not using it at all) are small examples of how you can help her recovery immensely. Sometimes, I'll warp onto the top platform of Battlefield instead of anything lower every once in a while to make sure that I can come back, because nobody really expects it unless I become predictable with it.

I had a talk with Ryko about her grabs, and really, Zelda is very easily punished if the opponent realizes how effective shielding is against her. This is where her grabs come in. Grab a bit more with her. I promise that you'll land more grabs that way, and while the throws might not be the best out there, they're still relatively damaging, so a pummel + a throw can give you at least 15%, which is about how much any other attack you were planning would've done, but the shield would've rejected. You're now grabbing and her main problem with grabbing is reduced.

Small things like this help any character, and this is what needs to be done in order to win with her at a higher level of play.
 

Villi

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Grabbing encourages side stepping; upsmashes punish side stepping. for yes awesome amazing. I try not to get in the habit of announcing my weaknesses, tho. lol
 

Kataefi

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You are so right! I think we need to look at her weaknesses and try to fix them (though it would be hard). She needs to up her game...

I've recently been playing only with tilts. It's not very effective setting your c stick to attack, but Dtilts come out instantly, and so does her dash attacks. I've realised that building damage with tilts is hard, but getting the kill with a smash is unbelievably easy and I get really early kills because they're just not stale at all.

If there was a better way to refresh her moveset for usmash kill it would be a godsend. I reckon spamming dtilt over and over until this happens and pummeling people in a grab. Jabs, dtilt and pummel and sourspot aerials is enough to refresh I think. I might try this =/

Any thoughts?????? :?
 

Villi

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Yes, keep trying things. :3

Grab pummels are good for refreshing your moveset. Some characters with fast pummels count as only one attack for refreshing moves (it's read as a multi-hit attack) if they mash A too hard/pummel too fast. This is not the case with Zelda's pummel -- every hit counts as one attack. It's not so much an advantage to Zelda as a n00b friendly attribute. Enjoy the ease of it.

Tilt sticking is lame. Random jumps are not cool. Not being able to c-stick a turn around tilt sux0rz. </opinion>
 
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