Zelda- Perfect Snake Counter?

[Kataefi]

Oh god tell me about it - she's such a ***** when she jumps randomly from a really good dtilt lock.
I can't figure out why!

Anyways yes I shall try to grab more in my gameplay. I don't do it enough =(

Do you think Zelda will fall in the tier list? I think she will, but only slighly... it's undeserving =(

 

[Villi]

I dunno. I think she might, but I don't want to care about stuff like that. It's not like I'm playing her for her position on the tier list or her place on the tier list affects my wins anyway. Hell, in NorCal, low tier Pokemon Trainer is number 9 on the power rankings. Captain Falcon is up there, too. XD Play to win, nukka.

 

[Kataefi]

:? really?

I care about her position actually. If she drops, people just won't pick her up =( which slows down her almost non-existent metagame

I'm hoping for that one special AT to arrive for her... here's hoping for that day ^^

 

[Villi]

:? really?

I care about her position actually. If she drops, people just won't pick her up =( which slows down her almost non-existent metagame

I'm hoping for that one special AT to arrive for her... here's hoping for that day ^^

ATs don't make any character's game. Strategy and creativity is what places you. I think that metagame is just a different way of saying "I want someone else to tell me what to do." Besides, using popular techniques just increases your chances of your opponent being aware of how to counter them. When Claw's Absolute Zero came out, I don't think there was anyone in my crew who would lose to a typical Claw-clone after our ZSS basically spammed everything he learned from that vid.

 

[Kataefi]

really really good way to put it actually

I think im lacking a bit of strategy, though I'm gonna post some vids soon and get some critique hopefully.

 

[Villi]

Yeah, critiques could be really useful. I hope the vid thread goes in that direction. It might encourage more solid gameplay for Zeldas.

I bought a capture card today!! omg >.>

PS I'm so fond of 0ff topic thread jacking. It's the best thing ever.

 

[Kataefi]

I need one! i dont even know how they work >.> but I need one anyways...

At the moment I have to send my replays to rickerdy on the peach boards who'll upload them, and I can only send 2 at a time because of that bloody send limit thing =p

so.... is zelda the snake counter? >.> /ontopic!!!

 

[sniperworm]

You are so right! I think we need to look at her weaknesses and try to fix them (though it would be hard). She needs to up her game...

I've recently been playing only with tilts. It's not very effective setting your c stick to attack, but Dtilts come out instantly, and so does her dash attacks. I've realised that building damage with tilts is hard, but getting the kill with a smash is unbelievably easy and I get really early kills because they're just not stale at all.

If there was a better way to refresh her moveset for usmash kill it would be a godsend. I reckon spamming dtilt over and over until this happens and pummeling people in a grab. Jabs, dtilt and pummel and sourspot aerials is enough to refresh I think. I might try this =/

Any thoughts?????? :?

Fresh Dsmash is pretty decent at getting/setting up kills. Otherwise yeah, grabs and Dtilt (if you start at an early enough percent) are good at refreshing attacks.

You also have the option of using DownB to get a fresh Sheik into the fight (which also means that you're one Dsmash away from a fresh Zelda).

Back on topic though, I maintain that Zelda is in no way a counter to Snake (because counter would mean that we have a significant advantage against him, which we obviously don't).

 

[Kataefi]

Yep I agree! Also... have you seen the new tier list... she's not done badly. She's in upper E tier. I reckon she can get a boost up to D with good tourney results ^^

 

[DarkThundah]

If there was a better way to refresh her moveset for usmash kill it would be a godsend. I reckon spamming dtilt over and over until this happens and pummeling people in a grab. Jabs, dtilt and pummel and sourspot aerials is enough to refresh I think. I might try this =/

Any thoughts?????? :?

I know (as most do) that transform refreshes move decay. But the problem is just finding an opportunity to use it. Jumping off the stage and using transform sometimes works but it can be dangerous. However, I have suicided by doing this after my friends wii took 30s to finish the move

Anytime you send your opponent off the edge at high %, is a good opportunity to use her down b. But that’s assuming your decent w/both sheik and Zelda. Which is why I feel all Zelda’s (and sheiks) should be at least competent w/both characters.

I know this has been discussed but it seems underused; but if you start as sheik and use her to rack up damage, and the moment you find an opportunity to use transform safely, you can switch to Zelda for a quicker kill.

oh and btw:

E Tier
Luigi 7.41
Zelda 7.03
Bowser 6.91
Fox 6.66
Sheik 6.44
Ike 5.91

...d@mn

 

[sniperworm]

Yep I agree! Also... have you seen the new tier list... she's not done badly. She's in upper E tier. I reckon she can get a boost up to D with good tourney results ^^

Although it's difficult to tell with their new tier system, Zelda has actually dropped 2 spots since the last tier list. It's good to see that Sheik moved up a spot though.

Also, lol at Bowser almost edging us out, maybe next time big guy.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Woot Zelda went down on the tier list /joke ^_^

Zelda may be actually able to outcamp Snake =O

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I would call Snake the easiest of the top tiers for Zelda to fight.

 

[-Mars-]

DDD's easier than Snake.

 

[Villi]

falco and rob of the former sacred 6 are easier still.

 

[Bandit]

Zelda's AT's will come when people learn to follow up moves. She won't be able to have true "combos", but I have had success with FF Dair sour spots to Bair/Fair in the air and FF Dair sweet spots to Bair/Fair when they hit the ground. The sweet spot "combo" was in the castle siege video against JCaesar. I almost always follow up Dair with a LK, and it works.

I saw the nair combo that was shared in another thread, and I am sure if someone DI's that isn't going to happen (but feel free to prove me wrong!).

Essentially, Zelda comes down to spacing and baiting. If you are keeping proper spacing, then you will be setup for people to run into your smashes or countering them with LK's & other aerials.

 

[Darkmusician]

Snake vs Zelda is a match up that Snake has no business losing.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Snake vs Zelda is a match up that Snake has no business losing.

estoy de acuerdo.

however... against zheik... well.... that could go against him.

 

[goodkid]

Yeah, I only play on wifi at the moment, but this match-up isn't as easy as I thought it was, you can't din's camp because of his grenades, you really have to play ultra smart to win, because you can't attack & run into things like you can w/ other characters, because w/ snake you'll get punished hard. When he f-tilts you, you should shield, spot-dodge, or roll away, most mid-level snakes usually f-tilt,f-tilt till your hit, if you get caught in one. We really need to review this match-up some more.

 

[Villi]

Gawd, really, Snake is... I don't want to talk about it because. ****. He really should not lose. Kill with Sheik.

 

[TheRockSays]

im pretty sure snake owns shiek body and soul from what i heard from a clan mate of mine(Mega-Japan) is that Snake is to broken against zelda, camping snake is actually not an option you must be on pursuit i believe ZSS is a perfect counter against snake. DSF lost a match against Claw because he picked Snake against a ZSS user he prolly would of had it if he picked a short stage with MK Again, In general i think snake is to broken i believe snake with cheap tactics against MK the match up would end up 50:50

 

[Villi]

:O Sheik does better than Zelda. Snakes who know how to get out of combos and stuff will give Sheik trouble, but Sheik has tools to get around all of Snake's tricks. Snake vs Zelda is just not fun or winnable.

I might consider ZSS against Snakes, actually.

 

[-Mars-]

I go Fox against Snakes......Sheik still has trouble with Snake.

 

[MrEh]

If you're using Sheik to fight Snake, then you're doing it wrong.

 

[Villi]

Umm, MrEh, I know the Snake matchup. You'll have to explain yourself. But I'm done discussing it on the boards... I'm free on AIM.

 

[MrEh]

Umm, MrEh, I know the Snake matchup. You'll have to explain yourself.

It's a combination of things.

Snake flat out overpowers and outranges her. (Needles aside.) The only way Sheik actually expresses some control over Snake is in the air, but that's the case with pretty much every character. On the ground, Snake is literally a brick wall.

Plus, aside from gimping, Snake is just hard to kill.

 

[Brinzy]

im pretty sure snake owns shiek body and soul from what i heard from a clan mate of mine(Mega-Japan)

He's wrong. Maybe wins, but not owns.


Sheik does better against Snake than Zelda. I don't even know why this is a discussion. Only use Zelda if you're trying to use her to kill, but even then I'm kinda against it.

 

[Kage Me]

Plus, aside from gimping, Snake is just hard to kill.

Isn't Sheik the Queen of Gimping, though? I vote f-air ^_^

 

[-Mars-]

Isn't Sheik the Queen of Gimping, though? I vote f-air ^_^

There will be very few times where you actually gimp Snake with Sheiks weak aerials. Most of the times they wil recover high and be in no danger of getting hit at all. Snake can also cover his underside with grenades and his nikita.

 

[S2]

I agree on Snake being a brick wall. But Sheik is a character that forces him to move.

Honestly, I feel more comfortable playing Sheik against Snake than most other characters. She's not a counter at all, but Sheik can get away with a lot of things if you abuse her speed and projectile.


90% of the Snakes out there want to camp and throw grenades. Sheik takes that whole strategy away from him. You can spam needles all day long until he approaches you. He can either try and approach, watch his shield dwindle, or dodge. But eventually he's going to make a mistake and take some damage.

Sheik can apply a lot of pressure with her needles. Even if it's just one. Don't under-estimate how frustrated your opponent will get if you keep throwing just 1 needle at him over and over.

Snake won't be able to grenade spam properly and he has little recourse except to be aggressive. And that's typically where opponents make mistakes. After getting needled enough, they'll make an approach. Approaching out of frustration can lead to mistakes.

I'll freely admit that Sheik isn't near the top tier. But she's excellent at punishing mistakes. You can needle spam and play hard to catch until your opponent makes one.

As for killing Snake, just swap to Zelda. If I choose to play as Sheik for the bulk of a stock, my general rule of thumb is to switch to Zelda at 110% for KOs. It's to guarantee that any smash attack nets you the kill. Against a heavy character (like Snake), you'll probably want to wait until 125-130% to switch. Otherwise he'll just DI and you'll be left with unwanted knockback reduction.

 

[Tien2500]

ZSS is not a Snake counter although she does fairly well.

Paralyzer shots and jabs take Snakedashing away and she's fast enough to get around nade spam. Dair also goes through Snake's Usmash. The problem here is Snake's weight. ZSS can have trouble KOing Snake especially as her Forward B becomes diminished. Its too bad because otherwise this match would be pretty easy for her.

As for Zelda I've always found her to be decent against Snake. Not at an advantage but 40:60 at worst.

Rob makes a fairly good Snake counter as he can outcamp Snake to an extent, is also fairly heavy, and has a better aerial/gimp game. Dedede has the chaingrab and I believe is 60:40 against Snake. I think these are the two best characters against Snake.

 

[-Mars-]

I think DK does extremely well against Snake. Lives longer than him, outranges him, approaches very well, good grab game.............probably one of the most underrated against Snake.

I think Tien pretty much described Sheik against Snake when he was talking about ZSS.

 

[MrEh]

I think that Bowser does better on Snake then both Zelda and Sheik.

Yes, effing Bowser. >>

 

[Ck-2]

I totally agree, Zelda IS an excellent idea agaisnt Snakes. Since Zelda has a decent range when attacking, it is good to keep distance from a dangerous character like Snake. Also, Snake is relatively tall and heavy, making it good to start combos with Zelda.

 

[MrEh]

I totally agree, Zelda IS an excellent idea agaisnt Snakes. Since Zelda has a decent range when attacking, it is good to keep distance from a dangerous character like Snake. Also, Snake is relatively tall and heavy, making it good to start combos with Zelda.

Zelda does not do excellent against Snake. Zelda's range is moot when Snake has even more.

 

[Darkmusician]

Anyone that thinks that Zelda goes even/counters Snake can play my Snake anytime. Not Sheik, not Zelda/Sheik, but just Zelda since that's what the thread is all about in the first place.

 

[Bandit]

Zelda does not do excellent against Snake. Zelda's range is moot when Snake has even more.

There's a good reason I second Dedede now...

 

[Ztarfish]

It's awfully silly that people in this thread are discussing whether Zelda or Sheik do better against Snake, when both are awfully mediocre at dealing with him in the first place.

Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Kataefi]

In case you havn't clocked on however... those bumping this thread are new to Zelda ^^

Now lets let it die down slowly =D