I was just giving examples of possible kill setups.
Kirby's fthrow doesnt lead up to anything? my bad,
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Zelda+: OP In-Process of Overhaul as of 04-05-10
- Thread starter Bandit
- Start date
Kirby's fthrow doesnt lead up to anything? my bad,
Zelda's shield grab is poor, but the actual grab, dash grab, and her pivot grab all possess better than average range. It's not particularly hard to trap them into one. Her slower grab also keeps this setup from being called foul. "Oh good, her crappy grab actually leads into an amazing kill against fast fallers." This KO setup entirely negates their advantage of being hard to KO vertically.
Ftilt and uthrow will lead into aerials against any target at mid percents. You should always be going for them. A clean Ftilt - uair will cause uair deaths at the bare minimum percents where they are possible. It doesn't need to be guaranteed, and they certainly will not DI every ftilt properly. Against floatier characters she already has other ways to setup kills which might or might not be hitting them with one move outright.
I'll say this one more time... Zelda's uair is not a move that should be a guaranteed hit on everyone at minimal death percents. Her uair is useful enough as it is. What you're asking for will just lead it into getting nerfed in power. Your complaints about her greater KO moves being "hard to land" as is appropriate all point towards the benefit of her regular Usmash strength.
Btw, 15% (usmash) + 15% (uair) adds up to 80+ when using a damage figure starting from the 50s.
Ftilt and uthrow will lead into aerials against any target at mid percents. You should always be going for them. A clean Ftilt - uair will cause uair deaths at the bare minimum percents where they are possible. It doesn't need to be guaranteed, and they certainly will not DI every ftilt properly. Against floatier characters she already has other ways to setup kills which might or might not be hitting them with one move outright.
I'll say this one more time... Zelda's uair is not a move that should be a guaranteed hit on everyone at minimal death percents. Her uair is useful enough as it is. What you're asking for will just lead it into getting nerfed in power. Your complaints about her greater KO moves being "hard to land" as is appropriate all point towards the benefit of her regular Usmash strength.
Btw, 15% (usmash) + 15% (uair) adds up to 80+ when using a damage figure starting from the 50s.
Bandit
Smash Lord
All her grabs are 11 or 12 frames or some ridiculously slow rate. You cannot count on landing a grab ever. I have started to grab an opponent and had Zelda's hands out and they grabbed and I was grabbed. It is easily spot dodged and unless someone is abusing the shield, it is not reliable.
Combos are only combos if they are guaranteed. Ftilt has no guarantee to U-Air as you say unless the other player screws up. You have been around long enough to know that you can talk about punishment for others screwing up, but you should NEVER count on it nor advise people to count on it. I know if I dthrow and the opponent DI's up that I have a free LK. By now, the good players know to DI Away and I will never land a follow up move, but I am ready if they screw up.
We are talking about combos into one of Zelda's most powerful kill moves. Dins is guaranteed with proper spacing. Ftilt is not guaranteed at all. Uthrow apparently works on fast fallers. So UAir has one setup that works on any character and one that only works on a handful. Otherwise, it is another slower move with tons of power that needs a lot of help. U-tilt was one of those moves until the U-Smash nerf happened. Now, U-tilt is her most dangerous ground kill move (coupled with d-tilt).
I don't care too much about a guaranteed kill for an U-air combo, but U-Smash used to combo into any aerial except Dair up to around 50-60%. Now, it does not combo into an aerial unless it is a fast faller or a huge target at just about any percent and it does not kill. All I want is the coders to decide that it gets a kill buff or a combo buff. At its current state, it does neither well and only functions as a 15% damage racker. It is a move that went from one of the most used to one that is limited in its application. This is why I debate the move because I want to see more out of the move. I don't care which way it goes, but it needs to go somewhere.
Combos are only combos if they are guaranteed. Ftilt has no guarantee to U-Air as you say unless the other player screws up. You have been around long enough to know that you can talk about punishment for others screwing up, but you should NEVER count on it nor advise people to count on it. I know if I dthrow and the opponent DI's up that I have a free LK. By now, the good players know to DI Away and I will never land a follow up move, but I am ready if they screw up.
We are talking about combos into one of Zelda's most powerful kill moves. Dins is guaranteed with proper spacing. Ftilt is not guaranteed at all. Uthrow apparently works on fast fallers. So UAir has one setup that works on any character and one that only works on a handful. Otherwise, it is another slower move with tons of power that needs a lot of help. U-tilt was one of those moves until the U-Smash nerf happened. Now, U-tilt is her most dangerous ground kill move (coupled with d-tilt).
I don't care too much about a guaranteed kill for an U-air combo, but U-Smash used to combo into any aerial except Dair up to around 50-60%. Now, it does not combo into an aerial unless it is a fast faller or a huge target at just about any percent and it does not kill. All I want is the coders to decide that it gets a kill buff or a combo buff. At its current state, it does neither well and only functions as a 15% damage racker. It is a move that went from one of the most used to one that is limited in its application. This is why I debate the move because I want to see more out of the move. I don't care which way it goes, but it needs to go somewhere.
UAIR doesn't need help because it is that powerful and already has ways to combo into. my ****ing god
Bandit
Smash Lord
You obviously didn't read the whole thing so I will say it again really short for you.
U-Smash, make it combo or make it kill. Fix it.
See, and I didn't need to use bold or curse words to get my point across. You know, all I was doing was having a discussion, but you seem to be getting frustrated or taking things personally. Seriously, just relax a little dude. Your opinion on the character and my opinion on the character are allowed to be different. This is why it is a forum and why this is called "Zelda Chat."
Besides, regardless if you make U-Smash more powerful or give her an U-Air setup from U-Smash, she still will kill early with either move. Again, I see no reason why you are so hung up on trying to persuade me differently. I will not change my opinion of what I feel the move should be regardless of what information you bring to me unless it gives me a reliable alternative to what I'd like to see.
U-Smash, make it combo or make it kill. Fix it.
See, and I didn't need to use bold or curse words to get my point across. You know, all I was doing was having a discussion, but you seem to be getting frustrated or taking things personally. Seriously, just relax a little dude. Your opinion on the character and my opinion on the character are allowed to be different. This is why it is a forum and why this is called "Zelda Chat."
Besides, regardless if you make U-Smash more powerful or give her an U-Air setup from U-Smash, she still will kill early with either move. Again, I see no reason why you are so hung up on trying to persuade me differently. I will not change my opinion of what I feel the move should be regardless of what information you bring to me unless it gives me a reliable alternative to what I'd like to see.
Bandit
Smash Lord
Dins Fire: Reaching the Full Potential of One Unique Projectile
Zelda has the only projectile in the game that charges as it flies through the air under her full control. Even if she is hit, the dins fire remains a live projectile and flies the extent of its path. Despite the ever growing hit box and directional control, the move has limitations which balance it out and make it a situational move.
1) Speed of the Projectile – We have to accept that dins does not travel very fast. Opponents are able to see it coming and make a corrective response to avoid being hit.
2) Cool Down of the Move – Zelda, upon release and detonation, experiences a long cool down that limits the follow-ups available to her. It does not prevent her from comboing with dins, but if the move does not land, she if left wide open for punishment.
3) Unable to Move While in Flight – Just stating it, not explaining it. Very well known.
With the limitations in mind, we can devise a strategy to use dins to its fullest. One of the best uses of the move is a follow-up move. If you land a high knockback move (as if we are short on them), you should be throwing dins at the opponent. I realize it will most likely not hit the opponent, but it will disrupt their plan for recovering, and it may provide you an opening to punish a poor air dodge or put them in a more desired position on the stage. Remember, being able to control where your opponents are on the level is a huge part of the game, and you should be taking advantage of one of her tools.
This goes for off the ledge as well. Dins is a great edge guarding tool that can combo into the devastating U-Air that she possesses (I will link to a video example soon). It forces the opponent to air dodge or perform an aerial or take the damage depending on where they are and how they are trying to recover. When an opponent recovers low, dins pops them up for an opportunity to perform the U-Air. Spacing is important on this combo because you can be too far away and not have the opportunity. Even if the dins does not land, you have put your opponent at an awkward place to try and recover or you have put them in a position they were trying to avoid. Either way, you are now in a better position to defend the recovery.
Retreating dins is when you jump away from the opponent throwing a fireball to create space. It is a safer way to perform the move in some situations since it makes the opponent have to travel farther to try and punish the move. Use this to create the space you need or to bait approaches. This has the ability to frustrate a charging opponent.
Possible Combos:
Dins -> U-Air: Good for delivering a killing blow and punishing a low recovering opponent. This can be performed on the stage and spacing is very important.
Dins (Quick Release) -> U-Smash: Used in the early percents at close range. This is not recommended because of the risk of being punished should the opponent dodge it.
Dins -> LK: This is more theoretical, but with the hit stun of dins, this should be possible given the right circumstances. My current belief is a similar circumstance to the U-Air combo must happen.
Dins -> Dins: I have found this to work at the higher percents off the ledge when an opponent is too far away for me to punish with an aerial. Also, if an opponent DI’s back away from the stage, then this might be your best option. Don’t be afraid to rack damage; the more the merrier.
Dins Fire: Reaching the Full Potential of One Unique Projectile
Before I say anything, Zelda no longer free falls after she performs this in the air. I'll pause while you celebreate...Zelda has the only projectile in the game that charges as it flies through the air under her full control. Even if she is hit, the dins fire remains a live projectile and flies the extent of its path. Despite the ever growing hit box and directional control, the move has limitations which balance it out and make it a situational move.
1) Speed of the Projectile – We have to accept that dins does not travel very fast. Opponents are able to see it coming and make a corrective response to avoid being hit.
2) Cool Down of the Move – Zelda, upon release and detonation, experiences a long cool down that limits the follow-ups available to her. It does not prevent her from comboing with dins, but if the move does not land, she if left wide open for punishment.
3) Unable to Move While in Flight – Just stating it, not explaining it. Very well known.
With the limitations in mind, we can devise a strategy to use dins to its fullest. One of the best uses of the move is a follow-up move. If you land a high knockback move (as if we are short on them), you should be throwing dins at the opponent. I realize it will most likely not hit the opponent, but it will disrupt their plan for recovering, and it may provide you an opening to punish a poor air dodge or put them in a more desired position on the stage. Remember, being able to control where your opponents are on the level is a huge part of the game, and you should be taking advantage of one of her tools.
This goes for off the ledge as well. Dins is a great edge guarding tool that can combo into the devastating U-Air that she possesses (I will link to a video example soon). It forces the opponent to air dodge or perform an aerial or take the damage depending on where they are and how they are trying to recover. When an opponent recovers low, dins pops them up for an opportunity to perform the U-Air. Spacing is important on this combo because you can be too far away and not have the opportunity. Even if the dins does not land, you have put your opponent at an awkward place to try and recover or you have put them in a position they were trying to avoid. Either way, you are now in a better position to defend the recovery.
Retreating dins is when you jump away from the opponent throwing a fireball to create space. It is a safer way to perform the move in some situations since it makes the opponent have to travel farther to try and punish the move. Use this to create the space you need or to bait approaches. This has the ability to frustrate a charging opponent.
Possible Combos:
Dins -> U-Air: Good for delivering a killing blow and punishing a low recovering opponent. This can be performed on the stage and spacing is very important.
Dins (Quick Release) -> U-Smash: Used in the early percents at close range. This is not recommended because of the risk of being punished should the opponent dodge it.
Dins -> LK: This is more theoretical, but with the hit stun of dins, this should be possible given the right circumstances. My current belief is a similar circumstance to the U-Air combo must happen.
Dins -> Dins: I have found this to work at the higher percents off the ledge when an opponent is too far away for me to punish with an aerial. Also, if an opponent DI’s back away from the stage, then this might be your best option. Don’t be afraid to rack damage; the more the merrier.
Bandit
Smash Lord
Combined with Sheik is a personal opinion. Some people only play Zelda and want to see the most out of her. I believe players of both characters should learn both and be able to switch mid-match to swing the tide, but it is just my personal opinion. I didn't pick up Sheik until after the new year because I was a Zelda only player, so I understand the sentiment.
(Double Post, I know, but I posted a section of the guide so I can link to that post later once the guide grows, and I am not willing to combine this response with the guide.)
You are bothering me greatly by insisting upon this. Stop acting like a saint, because you're far from it. You haven't really been talking about Usmash for a while. Speaking of fallacies with a straight face is my biggest pet peeve.
Uair kills much sooner than vBrawl Usmash, which is the aim. They will not both kill early in any relative sense. You're also not abusing the range of Zelda's grab like I suggested. It's better than all 3 fast falling character's grab range by a significant margin. It's slower than other non-tether grabs, making it poor out of shield compared to them. Rather than just complain about her grab in the fashion of "oooh it's slower I can't land them out of the blue" try to learn how to mentally drag them into it, which is a lot of Zelda is already about.
Anyone good will tell you that the vast majority of "combos" in this game are in fact DI dependent and are done reactively. Those characters who get around this regardless of DI are a cut above the rest (ie Meta Knight). You have many moves that have combo potential that send in different ways, and are quick enough to make reactive DI impossible to human limitations. Learn how to abuse a player's DI habits.
If you want me to take you seriously, stop saying the same false drivel over and over, demanding the same OP thing over and over, and just get a better sense of the game and why things are nerfed, because people demand and whine. Her up aerial needs no help whatsoever.
Veril
Frame Savant
this is possible, I have footage of me using this combo on Kirby.
In vbrawl there is a way in which you can jump and din's but explode the fireball slightly before she touches the ground... it makes the illusion as if she autocancelled din's.
I'm thinking... if there's added shield stun now.... could she somehow approach with din's, explode it on their shield whilst she is in the air, and then lead into a LK on their shield? That is of course if din's doesn't push them too far bag or there is too much lag.
Or could she do a similar thing but jump out of din's upon exploding it and chase with nair on their shield?
This is all theory btw, and I havn't been using the latest codeset.
I'm thinking... if there's added shield stun now.... could she somehow approach with din's, explode it on their shield whilst she is in the air, and then lead into a LK on their shield? That is of course if din's doesn't push them too far bag or there is too much lag.
Or could she do a similar thing but jump out of din's upon exploding it and chase with nair on their shield?
This is all theory btw, and I havn't been using the latest codeset.
Din's has no IASA in the air, so that's definitely not possible. That approach is easy enough to beat with SH air dodge or an inward roll.
Yea i used to play Sheik only for a couple of months till I started trying to play at tourney level (vBrawl BTW) B+ you almost dont have to if you know what youre doing with both characters and I know its more about player preference, but I personally like using them both, Sheik racks up the damage and Zelda delivers the OHKO, works soo well that I believe they can stand up to anyone in both versions of Brawl.
PS: Im loving the Din's Fire change. I can now play Zelda more offensively off-stage.
Veril
Frame Savant
Yes, Din's cancels vertical momentum, so you can basically start a dash and perform a jump-canceled Din's fire. I do the same think with PKT and a lot of other moves. The lag is pretty low on landing so it might be a possible approach.
I'll look into it.
Godd*** motherf***ing UPS is late with my wii. Oh well, monday. I have so much work anyway.
I hate all this discussion of buffs and nerfs. Its not what this thread is for. Besides that, a lot of what people are saying is either COMPLETELY INACCURATE or purely theoretical. Look, I'm gonna suggest 2 and only 2 buffs. Reduce the knockback growth of f-tilt and decrease the lag of jab all around.
If Din's doesn't cause free-fall that's great. I don't even want to argue any of this. I would rather actually learn here. I respect you guys and know that you are more knowledgeable than me, but this bickering over her moveset has got to be put on hold at least for a little while. Please
Learning to play Sheik as well is a very sound strategic choice in Brawl+. There is a robust CP system in + and failure to learn Sheik is a self-imposed limitation to Zelda players.
Bandit
Smash Lord
Actually, you are wrong. We are simply discussing the character which I see no reason as to why it should not be a part of this thread. It is not like we have a big Zelda part of the forum with multiple threads and multiple topics. The feedback should go directly to the IRC channel, but it was brought up here and it was discussed here.
Instead of saying everyone is "COMPLETELY INACCURATE" you could actually participate in the discussion and voice your opinion. I have yet to see you "correct" anything or suggest that someone was wrong with what they are saying. I'll ignore this statement until you come up with something that will add to the discussion.
I'll PM you instead of bringing my thoughts to this thread because this slander against me because you are throwing a hissy fit is not part of this thread and should not be here. Refrain from your personal thoughts about me and stick to the discussion (which only took a down swing just recently).RyokoYaksa said:
=====================================================
ANNOUNCEMENT: Another section of the guide will be posted by the end of the night. It is one of Zelda's most important moves.
Veril
Frame Savant
First off, you're wrong, not me.
2nd. I didn't say everyone was completely inaccurate, I said many statements were completely inaccurate. There's a pretty big difference between the 2.
Lol at me not contributing btw. I've already stated what I plan to contribute. The b**** fits everyone's been having here aren't contributing anything. This isn't a friendly or productive "discussion".
Bandit
Smash Lord
Seriously, I don't even care anymore. I'll run my thread how I'll run my thread, and I say that this thread is for chat about the character for buff and nerfs, tactical discussion, and character match-ups once the game starts to become more stable. If it isn't, they will shut down this thread and start a new one.
This is the ONLY Zelda+ thread on smash boards, so I am not going to restrict the conversations.
Veril, I appreciate the combo help, but you have not discussed anything. If there are inaccuracies, speak up, instead of saying "you all are wrong" and leaving it at that.
===============================
Currently, I am typing up the D-Tilt entry for the guide.
This is the ONLY Zelda+ thread on smash boards, so I am not going to restrict the conversations.
Veril, I appreciate the combo help, but you have not discussed anything. If there are inaccuracies, speak up, instead of saying "you all are wrong" and leaving it at that.
===============================
Currently, I am typing up the D-Tilt entry for the guide.
Veril
Frame Savant
OK. I feel that. I just want more tactical or research discussion.
When discussion goes to Nerfs/Buffs it focuses everyone around one move or set of moves. Up-air, Din's fire, and up-smash are the big ones here.
I guess I like to know all the capabilities in terms of comboing, movement and stuff before I saying something can't work, or has no setup. Like...
My line of thought
•With Din's, its an excellent move to use as a tech chase, you can time it just right cause of the charge, and it can combo.
•Uncharged Din's into LK is a combo.
•But ok, now what would force a tech on ground level with you? D-smash does this very well.
•How can you get a d-smash? D-tilt or dash attack maybe?
•And those can be used right out of a dash or danced into.
•D-tilt can combo into itself at lower% so you could get to whatever the optimal % for Dins to LK is.
Another example
So if I find that f-tilt combos are as sexy as I think, or the knockback growth gets lowered on that move (omg plz), than I'll have a way to set up up-air. Maybe not a KO, but who knows.
•well, does d-tilt combo into f-tilt, what about autocanceled n-air.
•can you combo f-tilt into a grab? or a Din's Fire?
•I'm pretty sure Din's can combo into f-tilt...
•maybe Din's can combo into up-air...
So, lets say d-tilt > f-tilt > Din's > n-air > f-tilt > Din's > up-air. Total bs off the top of my head but its what I want to look into.
When discussion goes to Nerfs/Buffs it focuses everyone around one move or set of moves. Up-air, Din's fire, and up-smash are the big ones here.
I guess I like to know all the capabilities in terms of comboing, movement and stuff before I saying something can't work, or has no setup. Like...
My line of thought
•With Din's, its an excellent move to use as a tech chase, you can time it just right cause of the charge, and it can combo.
•Uncharged Din's into LK is a combo.
•But ok, now what would force a tech on ground level with you? D-smash does this very well.
•How can you get a d-smash? D-tilt or dash attack maybe?
•And those can be used right out of a dash or danced into.
•D-tilt can combo into itself at lower% so you could get to whatever the optimal % for Dins to LK is.
Another example
So if I find that f-tilt combos are as sexy as I think, or the knockback growth gets lowered on that move (omg plz), than I'll have a way to set up up-air. Maybe not a KO, but who knows.
•well, does d-tilt combo into f-tilt, what about autocanceled n-air.
•can you combo f-tilt into a grab? or a Din's Fire?
•I'm pretty sure Din's can combo into f-tilt...
•maybe Din's can combo into up-air...
So, lets say d-tilt > f-tilt > Din's > n-air > f-tilt > Din's > up-air. Total bs off the top of my head but its what I want to look into.
I was discussing dtilt with ryoko and it was concluded that dtilt (when it pops a character up) is a legitimate setup for a sweetspot LK. I find the implications of this quite important imo. This is actually a setup I was researching in vbrawl for absolutely ages with very little success unless a trip occurred on certain characters... but now this is an actual solid setup. Veril... is there any chance you could research this for me? (thanks for the add btw).
Veril
Frame Savant
Will do. I know that it works, I'll just get the % range for MK, Marth and Sheik.
A point of note: f-tilt is faster than jumping into a f-air by a few frames. So if d-tilt combos into f-air, it could combo into f-tilt as well. That might be a good idea depending on %.
A point of note: f-tilt is faster than jumping into a f-air by a few frames. So if d-tilt combos into f-air, it could combo into f-tilt as well. That might be a good idea depending on %.
IC3R
Smash Lord
Triple-tilt combo wut? D-Tilt > F-Tilt > U-Tilt > w/e?
Also, lol at my quote in the thread header
Oh, Veril: I managed to get your texture working, but the skin is still a little too light. I'll edit it and send you the new one, 'kay?
Also, lol at my quote in the thread header
Oh, Veril: I managed to get your texture working, but the skin is still a little too light. I'll edit it and send you the new one, 'kay?
Veril
Frame Savant
n-air > d-tilt > d-smash > tech chase Din's Fire > n-air > f-tilt > up-air... would be the sexiest thing ever.
I feel like if Zelda does have crazy combos, the % and execution are probably gonna be pretty precise.
I feel like if Zelda does have crazy combos, the % and execution are probably gonna be pretty precise.
IC3R
Smash Lord
Maybe, but it should be pretty easy to get a foe to certain percents, considering I know her D-Throw does 10% damage, and that could lead into the combo you listed...
I am so tired right now man ~__~
Sweetspotted dash attack also leads into killing Uairs against mid-falling characters at a specific damage range. Works with no DI or outward DI.
Veril
Frame Savant
Zelda's moveset is great. She's got a bunch of moves we know can set up combos, moves that require a setup but can combo, and crazy death slippers.
DC D-tilt, d-throw, dash attack, auto-canceled n-air...
DC D-tilt, d-throw, dash attack, auto-canceled n-air...
Veril
Frame Savant
Alright, I'm double posting. Sorry. Sorta...
OK, a big thing to keep in mind with Zelda (most of you know this already) is that f-tilt and dash-attack have different knockback when tippered (more vertical knockback). In terms of comboing, generally the tippered variants are more effective. The non-tippered variants can lead to tech chases though.
OK so...
d-tilt to d-smash/d-tilt combo through a massive % range. Basically they work beyond the % at which they are most useful (ie, LK or up-air time).
d-tilt combos into nearly any move. It works better at mid-% if it doesn't trip, but it trips so well that this isn't a huge issue.
up-smash to up-smash still works at low%. You can chain them together to get like 40+% on Falcon. Pretty nuts. It combos into up-air a little later than this so to all you people!
f-tilt to f-tilt/up-tilt/up-smash work at low%.
f-tilt/up-tilt to up-air can work.
tipper dash attack combos into a ton of stuff.
Din's fire is a recovery move now that it doesn't cause free fall and still reduces your rate of descent. Wavebouncing a flame-dash (Din's immediately after a jump) is difficult but you can rar and b-reverse it if you can't pull off the Wavebounce. This is one way of setting up Din's combos. There is also much less lag I believe.
OK, a big thing to keep in mind with Zelda (most of you know this already) is that f-tilt and dash-attack have different knockback when tippered (more vertical knockback). In terms of comboing, generally the tippered variants are more effective. The non-tippered variants can lead to tech chases though.
OK so...
d-tilt to d-smash/d-tilt combo through a massive % range. Basically they work beyond the % at which they are most useful (ie, LK or up-air time).
d-tilt combos into nearly any move. It works better at mid-% if it doesn't trip, but it trips so well that this isn't a huge issue.
up-smash to up-smash still works at low%. You can chain them together to get like 40+% on Falcon. Pretty nuts. It combos into up-air a little later than this so
to all you people!f-tilt to f-tilt/up-tilt/up-smash work at low%.
f-tilt/up-tilt to up-air can work.
tipper dash attack combos into a ton of stuff.
Din's fire is a recovery move now that it doesn't cause free fall and still reduces your rate of descent. Wavebouncing a flame-dash (Din's immediately after a jump) is difficult but you can rar and b-reverse it if you can't pull off the Wavebounce. This is one way of setting up Din's combos. There is also much less lag I believe.
This all sounds interesting veril! I understand her nair has been sped up now...but I obtained this info from hotgarbage, and it could prove more reliable here as nair has less landing lag now:
EDIT:: also is din's a momentum breaking move? I havn't fiddled around with brawl+ in a few days so I havn't been around to test >.<
Perhaps the frame advantages are different now? I'm not too sure... but if the move causes a hard landing from the opponent, and Zelda chases them with faster speed, coud she potentially use nair as a reliable harrass tool?
EDIT:: also is din's a momentum breaking move? I havn't fiddled around with brawl+ in a few days so I havn't been around to test >.<
Zelda......
Has anyone realise how powerful she is in Brawl+ 4.0?
I've been lurking every now & then on these forums and I'm about to make my first post/topic about Zelda.
She has a GODLY Up-air attack. I was Marth one match against Zelda and I was about 60% damage on Smashville and I was trying to edge guard her and she up-air underneath me while I was standing pretty much on the edge and the damage dealt put me at like 80% and I died.
Her D-tilt can lock you, its so bad that you be at a high percentage and she can D-tilt to a forward smash for an easy kill.
She is hard to combo on the ground and air cause of how floaty she is. The fastest character I have to fight her in the air is Zero Suit Samus.
I do know Zelda is at her weakest in the air cause of how slow her aerial attacks are.
Her priority is out this world. Unless she's in the air she can just about hit me out of anything, especially since her smash attacks can be spammed.
Does anyone else have difficulties against Zelda in Brawl 4.0? Just to let you know who I used against her was PT, ZSS, Marth, Fox, IC, Pit. I am not sure where to post this topic but I just need to talk about in a friendly manner.
Has anyone realise how powerful she is in Brawl+ 4.0?
I've been lurking every now & then on these forums and I'm about to make my first post/topic about Zelda.
She has a GODLY Up-air attack. I was Marth one match against Zelda and I was about 60% damage on Smashville and I was trying to edge guard her and she up-air underneath me while I was standing pretty much on the edge and the damage dealt put me at like 80% and I died.
Her D-tilt can lock you, its so bad that you be at a high percentage and she can D-tilt to a forward smash for an easy kill.
She is hard to combo on the ground and air cause of how floaty she is. The fastest character I have to fight her in the air is Zero Suit Samus.
I do know Zelda is at her weakest in the air cause of how slow her aerial attacks are.
Her priority is out this world. Unless she's in the air she can just about hit me out of anything, especially since her smash attacks can be spammed.
Does anyone else have difficulties against Zelda in Brawl 4.0? Just to let you know who I used against her was PT, ZSS, Marth, Fox, IC, Pit. I am not sure where to post this topic but I just need to talk about in a friendly manner.
Pez55
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 6, 2009
- Messages
- 149
Zelda has been improved in Brawl, but I really haven't had any trouble against a Zelda. Her air attacks are powerful, but they have to be sweet spotted and timed right. She is slower than most characters and her projectile is rather easy to avoid.
Overall I think Zelda is better than she was in Melee, but not great.
BTW: I think this tread belongs in the Zelda character discussion.
Overall I think Zelda is better than she was in Melee, but not great.
BTW: I think this tread belongs in the Zelda character discussion.
Arkaether
Smash Ace
You probably should have posted this in the Zelda character thread. And it's not that she's good, but rather that you don't know how to fight her. She's pretty slow in the air, most of her attacks have to be sweetspotted, her Din's Fire is only active on one frame, and you need to learn how to DI.
This. Since Zelda's pretty slow in the air, you should try to keep her there and keep yourself beneath her. Her options against Uair pressure (or any form of pressure from below) are pretty bad.
It's not that I don't know how to DI or don't know how to fight her it's just that she has good smash attacks that can be spammed. I said that her air game is weak. She just annoys the heck out of me.
The only two things that truly bothers me is her D-tilt and Up-air. Other than that I can pretty much keep her in the air.
The only two things that truly bothers me is her D-tilt and Up-air. Other than that I can pretty much keep her in the air.
Arkaether
Smash Ace
You can SDI out of her smashes (although it's pretty hard to do so), not to mention they're pretty punishable. Learn to shield and airdodge.
Arkaether
Smash Ace
Nah, didn't mean it like that. I meant to use it more often, not as a derogatory kind of condescending remark.
Bandit
Smash Lord
So it seems the thread has gotten pretty quiet. I got to play some recently and am really starting to use the new dins off the ledge a lot more. I need more work with it to really suggest ways to use it but the possibilities are extremely good.
IMPORTANT COMBO:
U-Smash to LK near the edge of stages:
- When an opponent is near the edge and in the middle percents, U-Smash can, on most of the cast, combo into a LK. This can result in VERY early kills. I was able to land kills on my opponent when they started in the 30-40% range by kicking them toward the edge. Use this to your advantage!
IMPORTANT COMBO:
U-Smash to LK near the edge of stages:
- When an opponent is near the edge and in the middle percents, U-Smash can, on most of the cast, combo into a LK. This can result in VERY early kills. I was able to land kills on my opponent when they started in the 30-40% range by kicking them toward the edge. Use this to your advantage!
proteininja
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2009
- Messages
- 243
At what percentage does farore's wind combo into itself if you read the trajectory correctly?
Also, what is a good combo that ends with a f-smash?
And i'm testing my sig...
Also, what is a good combo that ends with a f-smash?
And i'm testing my sig...
Bandit
Smash Lord
For FW to combo into itself, usually I have been off the ledge and the opponent has been in the mid to high percentages. Also, it usually is accidental. This the only time I have done it.
Dtilt will combo into F-Smash, but I would not be trying to necessary set up Fsmash since it is escapable. I do dtilt - Fsmash in the low to mid percentages while dtilt is still tripping. Remember, when dtilt pops an opponent up, use UTilt and not Usmash. UTilt has a lot more kill power than USmash.
Dtilt will combo into F-Smash, but I would not be trying to necessary set up Fsmash since it is escapable. I do dtilt - Fsmash in the low to mid percentages while dtilt is still tripping. Remember, when dtilt pops an opponent up, use UTilt and not Usmash. UTilt has a lot more kill power than USmash.