Zelda+: OP In-Process of Overhaul as of 04-05-10

[Bandit]

Formerly overutilized? Either dtilt or nair, and of those the dtilt is more likely. Gonna go with that.

Her usmash is no longer a monstrous kill special, but I'm pretty sure it's still good for combos and the like with its new knockback. Just need to follow DI well, I believe.

I will be getting into U-Smash later on in the guide especially once I start talking combos.

I will also not reveal the answer until I post the new section which could be as soon as tonight or as late as friday.

 

[Andarel]

Would like to point out that it is likely 0.66% FW startup is going to be changed to 0.75% FW endlag.

Also, utilt is fun to kill with. Still not usmash, though.

That is all.

 

[Kataefi]

Would like to point out that it is likely 0.66% FW startup is going to be changed to 0.75% FW endlag.

What? Why? I believe that makes it even more gimpable. What players did in Vbrawl was jump to the edge and jump back giving the illusion they'd grab the ledge to force Zelda onto the stage. Adding extra end lag would simply... kill any chances of her landing safely on stage >.< I would rather have it normally if I'm honest.

And I think the usmash power seriously hurts her now IMO. I'm afraid it's gone from amazing Zelda to... bad bad Zelda for me lol =(

She's been nerfed horribly now lol. I noticed some things:

- People can tech dtilt now so sometimes not even a dsmash will strike them... you'd have to opt for something more lingering like usmash. I believe they might be able to roll back, hindering any chances of dtilt setups, which is a big loss =(
- Usmash was by and far one of her most important kill moves, and now that's gone =(
- I've noticed that it's easier to DI out of Fsmash on reaction now... as the first hit simply pops you up really quickly. At least before you had to spend effort DIing =(
- And ftilt, despite the speed, is as useless as ever. =(
- Have lightning kicks been nerfed? they do 20% damage now instead of 21%, and they seem harder to connect now =(
- And finally! Uair is harder to combo into now =(

The fact is... she isn't fast on the ground at all. It takes a jab to knock her out of place. She can't grab well, and her frontal OoS options are terrible. Her quickest option is to drop shield and dsmash, but even that's trickier to connect with added shield stun. She can't pressure shield nearly as well now with the speed at which her multihits hit the opponent's shield, so that element to her game is gone. Her combos are now simply lacking. I thought she might have something from FSmash at early percents, but they can tech away from her.

I know this sounds crazy, but I think relative to the whole cast, she's not going to fare very well. I'm being ***** byquick, fast characters who string hits together like crazy and happen to have slightly worse killpower, yet the speed at which they rack damage and kill is much much better than the speed at which she does all this.

Sorry for the big change of heart. I'm using 4.0... can someone enlighten if she's changed at all from the transition of 4.0 to 4.1? Peach on the other hand has turned into a combo and kill machine... >.<

 

[Veril]

I've comboed f-tilt into LK

 

[Bandit]

Would like to point out that it is likely 0.66% FW startup is going to be changed to 0.75% FW endlag.

Also, utilt is fun to kill with. Still not usmash, though.

That is all.

I just played with the 4/29 code set, and cutting the end lag a tad didn't do anything. It was her normal UpB from Vanilla Brawl getting punished just as hard as it normally does. With her FW sped up, it added so much to her recovery game, approach game, and spacing tactics that it really helped her. All you have done is return her back to vanilla brawl.

Kat:
- Ftilt is fantastic, and I have no problems with it. It combos just as well as it did at low percents and still has kill power. I have used it to combo at mid-percents as well though I'm not sure if I have video to show it.
- Dtilt basically doesn't trip anymore. Because it doesn't decay, it just hits 7% with stun most of the time. You still get an occasional trip, but it is not worth counting on. Dtilt has to be used later in the game for the pop up to combo into.
- LK has been 20% since the no decay code. It is its true power not the 102% or whatever you start with in vanilla brawl.
- USmash can only combo medium to heavy characters or big characters. I'm not talking into itself which it can do for them (but only once), but into aerial combos. I don't like it at all because it really doesn't help comboing, and it doesn't kill. A medium character may not die till 140%. Dtilt to Utilt is good though.
- UAir is comboed into by Dins. When a character recovers low, dins fire, chase, Uair. I get a lot of kills this way. A LOT.

 

[Kataefi]

You can't do anything with it at later percents though. I'm probably just not used to the mechanics yet... I need more time with it to uncover little bits and bobs she can make good use of.

EDIT:: Maybe I'm being too harsh on Ftilt. I think I'm holding the stigma it had from vbrawl. I might start to incorporate this into my game a lot more now.

 

[Bandit]

Tonight, I was using it a ton. It is just a safer and better move the FSmash because it is quicker. 1.2x speed up means around 9 frame hit box if I remember the math compared to 14 frame Fsmash. Keep using it and you will see the improvement.

Unfortunately, at higher percentages, it is as useful to kill as USmash.

Plus, I'm not sure why so much emphasis on our beloved princess. Her first USmash in B+ was over the top, but it is because in the new physics, it was one of the best all around moves in the game. It was very spammable, it chained together, it ultra comboed with LK's, and it killed. There are not many moves that can do that, but it did. I don't know what they have to do, but it USmash now is not that great.

A new series of moves for you:
Nair > Utilt > Aerial

Utilt, if you remember your frame data, has very little power at the beginning of the percents but grows tremendously. Nair auto-cancels and kicks the opponent in front of her, Utilt's first frames are infront of her and kick the opponent up and it sits nice and low for comboing ability into an aerial.

 

[rageagainst]

Zelda is unchanged in the latest codeset. These vids are still valid.

Hopefully there will be a quickswitch code soon that will make playing Zelda/Sheik more viable.

Actually no its fine as is, if that happens then they will have to balance the char "Sheik/Zelda" and not worry about the 2 separate chars, since Sheik/Zelda would better than both of them. (In melee it wasn't the case since sheik was so **** good and Zelda was **** bad, but now they are basically even)

I say keep Zelda and Sheik separate chars and make the switch time long.

Anyway Zelda should be competitive once they allow her to do stuff after Din's fire. The Upsmash isn't escapable anymore right?

EDIT: ftilt needs another buff, the only reason to use it in vbrawl was so that you wouldn't diminish your fsmash.

 

[Veril]

I've been experimenting with setting c-stick to attack, which has led to me using way more tilts. F-tilt is extremely underrated.

 

[Bandit]

Actually no its fine as is, if that happens then they will have to balance the char "Sheik/Zelda" and not worry about the 2 separate chars, since Sheik/Zelda would better than both of them. (In melee it wasn't the case since sheik was so **** good and Zelda was **** bad, but now they are basically even)

I say keep Zelda and Sheik separate chars and make the switch time long.

Anyway Zelda should be competitive once they allow her to do stuff after Din's fire. The Upsmash isn't escapable anymore right?

EDIT: ftilt needs another buff, the only reason to use it in vbrawl was so that you wouldn't diminish your fsmash.

F-Tilt is coming up after the update that I am putting in now and the update coming later this week. It will explain how much better Ftilt is now and all the uses for it. I love the new Ftilt. It is roughly 9 frames now instead of 12 and truly gives it use. Not to mention it is a very capable comboing move.

Also, USmash is VERY MUCH escapable. Just as much as it was before. The dins fire stuff may never come but I know they are working on it. The code is very complex but it will help her.

 

[Kataefi]

The only problem I don't like with setting c-stick to attack (I havn't tried using it in brawl+ yet) is the fact you can't turned around. You're always forced to attack in one direction. I think the biggest problem though is the random jumps that replace some of your intended attacks.

But yeah I've been using ftilt a lot more now. It definitely has sped up in the version I'm using. I find it very good for early>mid percents, and then I start to bring out the dtilt > any other attack as a late late % damage racker wherever I can.

I'm not looking forward to the FW ending lag though in the next versions. That will destroy her imo... especially because making it faster on startup by 3-4 frames still gives her opponents enough time to grab the ledge and hog it, just like vbrawl, and so on the majority of occasions she's always forced onto the stage anyways. The difference between vbrawl and brawl+ though is now she's even more punishable in the latter >.<

edit: I'd rather they simply gave her a quicker startup and kept the ending lag... and that's it. That or keep the startup and reduce the ending lag. One or the other.

I think she's only very slightly better than her to vbrawl counterpart now. She has few combos. Maybe the din's fire stuff will help her, but the usmash seriously hurts her imo. Also... din's fire isn't a reliable projectile in the slightest - if it was anything better than uesless in a 1v1 she'd at least be upper mid on the normal tier list. But it's not... I think the brawl+ back room needs to address that giving her followups from din's fire will do nothing for her, unless they change it's awful priority or reduce her lag on it or something.

 

[Veril]

the reduction in invincibility frames on airdodges probably will improve dins fire.

 

[JCaesar]

It does in a way, but it also makes it easier to avoid Din's when you're recovering, because now you can airdodge offstage without killing yourself.

 

[IC3R]

Weren't they cut by like 7 frames?

How many hitframes does the explosion of DF have?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Actually no its fine as is, if that happens then they will have to balance the char "Sheik/Zelda" and not worry about the 2 separate chars, since Sheik/Zelda would better than both of them. (In melee it wasn't the case since sheik was so **** good and Zelda was **** bad, but now they are basically even)

I say keep Zelda and Sheik separate chars and make the switch time long.

Anyway Zelda should be competitive once they allow her to do stuff after Din's fire. The Upsmash isn't escapable anymore right?

EDIT: ftilt needs another buff, the only reason to use it in vbrawl was so that you wouldn't diminish your fsmash.

Being willing to use both characters is already better than using one or the other. What are you talking about? The reason your logic is flawed is because you're assuming they can access any move in either moveset in any particular time. This isn't true, because even a Melee-length Transform cannot be done freely and requires an opening. In the case of Sheik-Zelda, this often denies you the opportunity to chase as Sheik. Are you one of those irrationally attached Zelda mains or something that thought using both of them in crew battle was against the rules?

The reason Transforms are broken right now is because they take an inconsistently long amount of time to perform. They do need a fix.

Fsmash and Usmash are still just as escapable as before, if not more.

Ftilt is fine. 1.2x speed was all it needed to go from "extremely unsafe and uncomboable" to "just viable enough." Personally I'd see less KBG on ftilt as a buff, but that's because I think using it to kill is silly.

 

[Bandit]

Being willing to use both characters is already better than using one or the other. What are you talking about? The reason your logic is flawed is because you're assuming they can access any move in either moveset in any particular time. This isn't true, because even a Melee-length Transform cannot be done freely and requires an opening. In the case of Sheik-Zelda, this often denies you the opportunity to chase as Sheik. Are you one of those irrationally attached Zelda mains or something that thought using both of them in crew battle was against the rules?

The reason Transforms are broken right now is because they take an inconsistently long amount of time to perform. They do need a fix.

Fsmash and Usmash are still just as escapable as before, if not more.

Ftilt is fine. 1.2x speed was all it needed to go from "extremely unsafe and uncomboable" to "just viable enough." Personally I'd see less KBG on ftilt as a buff, but that's because I think using it to kill is silly.

That last part about ftilt is right on par! More comboing ability is exactly what she needs.

 

[Veril]

I'm going to be testing f-tilt combos when I get back my wii. I've seen them work.

Specifically I'm interested in f-tilt to LK.


With c-stick tilts, I'd use it if it wasn't for that ******** random jump thing.

 

[Bandit]

if you are going to try combos out, try this one when opponent is at 0%:
f-tilt > u-tilt > LK (or other aerial)

I have not tried it, but it may be possible with U-tilt not having much KB early in the percents. I know ftilt > u-smash works at 0% though I don't know the extent of how high before it doesn't work. This is my basis for why u-tilt can replace u-smash.

 

[Veril]

My research for Zelda, methods and goals

if you are going to try combos out, try this one when opponent is at 0%:
f-tilt > u-tilt > LK (or other aerial)

I have not tried it, but it may be possible with U-tilt not having much KB early in the percents. I know ftilt > u-smash works at 0% though I don't know the extent of how high before it doesn't work. This is my basis for why u-tilt can replace u-smash.

I test combos in discrete groups. I always start with 2-move sequences. You can see my method on the Jiggs guide.

Ie, f-tilt to up-tilt works at what % and up-tilt to LK... you get the idea.

Because the up-tilt to LK would be tested on a grounded opponent, the % range would be larger than if it were following a f-tilt BUT it gives me an idea of the range for when I test 3 part combos.

I'm not really trying the combo out so much as finding as close to the exact % range in which it will function on any given character. Seeing as I know the relative vertical combo resistance of most of the cast I'm going to test combos on these characters: MK , Sheik, and Marth. They are spread across the spectrum in regards to vertical combo resistance.

I am more interested in some characters than others, and I am attempting to get a set of moves to test. Fortunately... Zelda is one of the characters I am interested in.

For Zelda My agenda is:
F-tilt to LK
F-tilt to up-tilt
d-tilt to d-tilt

F-tilt to up-tilt to LK: on request
I will be willing to test one more 2-move sequence.

These will be tested on: MK, Marth, Sheik. I will use the most recent version of the plussery available.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brzSqXqwZjg

Fsmash escape retribution.

 

[Kataefi]

Veril I've been keeping an eye on your research for jiggs and no doubt you'll do a good job with Zelda.

As for Din's fire..... where do I start? >.< The reduction in airdodge frames really means nothing when the majority of the cast have an aerial that cuts through it with ease. The explosion doesn't linger in the slightest - the hitbox is one frame long. It's easy to airdodge and the lag makes it incredibly easy to punish.

IMO... if they're going to make Din's fire a viable strategy 1vs1, they need to change the mechanics of the move. I've heard they might eliminate the free fall at the end, but there's no point if the projectile itself has such awful priority and is so unbelievably slow and laggy. I say they eliminate the free fall and also eliminate some of the lag she has at the end, so she can somewhat harass with ease.

Her smashes are really easy to SDI out of now. Fsmash... is useless >.< The first hit simply pops you up... you only need to tap up once on the control to escape it. At least in Vbrawl you needed some variation of effort to be able SDI constantly and escape it. Bear in mind using 4.0 now, so it could be different.

 

[Bandit]

As usual Kat, I can generally say that you are overreacting and stating crazy exaggerations of moves. F-Smash is fine and not as easy as you believe it is to get out of. Dins is fine as well as it is used just like it is used in vanilla brawl.

You are blowing things way out of proportion.

 

[Kataefi]

Oh god... I never properly read my posts back, but I can see where people come from now lmao!

In all honesty, I think Fsmash is fine. I think Usmash could have a teeny tiny bit more power to return her back to normal, and perhaps FW and din's fire could have some buffs to keep her competitive. I guess those are my main points I'm hoping for.

 

[Bandit]

Dins, even if her cool down was sped up, would still be an easily dodged projectile that shouldn't be spammed. U-smash, I think, needs the power decreased to combo even more. She has a ton of kill moves and U-Smash doesn't need to be one of them. I used to think she needed it, but she is dying for more comboable moves.

 

[Kataefi]

How do you think they should change Din's to make it more competitive?

 

[Bandit]

It is a slow projectile with a big hit box. There isn't anything they could do to make it "more competitive." I accepted long ago that it was not a projectile to be spammed. It is a tool to disrupt approaches, recoveries, and now is a combo move when it connects.

I just don't want to die if I accidentally use it over the ledge or on yoshi's island. Which will happen until they fix the free fall code which they are currently working on. I have been told it is a really difficult thing to decode, and they have been working on it for some time.

I'm not sure what you imagine dins to be, but unless it moved really fast and became a quick release, it will not be like any other projectile in the game.

 

[Kataefi]

It really should never hit in a 1v1 situation the way it is now. It always was a pretty punishable projectile, and that has carried over unfortunately. This is all my opinion remember.

I simply want it to harass more safely due to the speed increases a lot of the characters have been given... I don't want it to be spammable, but I do want it to be safer against characters who space well very quickly or camp extremely hard.

A single buff would make it more abusable imo. Also it would be great if they could get rid of the paralysis from it, as they have done to Ike's side b.

 

[Bandit]

It was a very nice projectile until they cut air dodges in half. Now, it is not as good as harassing off the ledge as it was because people won't die if they air dodge. If you speed up the cool down, it still will not hit in a 1v1 situation. It will just encourage you to throw it out more while still being punishable.

Also, frame speed ups are limited to the amount that they have. It must be important to the character to do it. This is how it was explained to me.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I disagree with Usmash needing less power to combo more. Zelda in truth does not have many reliable KO attacks to land except against fast fallers. She has combo options against most every character already at any percent without Usmash.

 

[Bandit]

A comboing U-Smash to U-Air would give her reliable KO's. Dtilt to Utilt is a reliable KO. Dtilt to LK not as much but will kill if there. F-Smash not as reliable but works. D-Smash is a definite killer.

I'd rather have the combo ability. Her Dsmash is highly underestimated as a killer and the more damage the more it should be feared. She doesn't rack damage that great anymore without reliable combos in the middle percents. Light characters are impossible to combo.

I'm not complaining about U-Smash but it isn't a reliable option to combo into an aerial. In order for it to work, the character has to fall pretty deep into the move so that the height they are sent away from Zelda isn't as steep.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Ftilt, dash attack, uthrow, and dtilt locks all lead into combos at mid percents against anything. I already said that she has good combo moves as it is.

Fox is very "light" but he comboed to hell and back by Zelda because he falls fast. That's Zelda's forte. Floaties in general are hard to combo and it's not a problem with Zelda.

Uair is such a strong vertical KO that being able to reliably set it up vs. EVERYONE would put it in a broken state.

As for Dsmash, that's only an effective kill if you force them to the edge. Vertical kill moves KO from anywhere on the stage.

 

[Bandit]

Hold up, U-air vs Everyone would be broken if it had a setup? How do you explain Fox being able to setup U-Air or U-Smash at will? Both of those moves are devastating when playing him and both are setup by a throw or by U-tilt. Zelda's U-Air NEEDS a setup in order to land it, and right now the only setup that is reliable is connecting with a dins while an opponent is recovering low. Otherwise, U-Air is extremely telegraphed and hard to hit with.

Fox's U-Smash is actually quick enough to be used without a setup, and it still has moves that combo into it at kill percents. I don't see the validity of that argument.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda's uair kills at -far lower- percents than Fox's uair, which is only an average KO move now. Even his Usmash won't be killing at numbers that low because it's an easy DI. Fox's and Zelda's vertical kills are nothing alike.

Let's not forget this is the exact same principle that led to the power nerf of Luigi's Up+B. You're asking for too much.

 

[Bandit]

It is not when they kill, it is that they are easily setup by other moves when they can kill. I understand U-Air has a great KB growth and is extremely powerful, but I know it is unable to land by itself. In almost all cases, U-Air kills are the result of edge guarding.

The fact that at kill time Fox can combo into either of his two kill moves with reliable setups makes his vertical KO moves better. Zelda has no reliable setup to U-air when the move will kill. If you know of any, please share and I will start using it and drop my case.

U-Tilt has a greater KB growth than U-Smash and is more powerful than U-Smash in VBrawl and now in B+. Dtilt sets up U-Tilt just fine at kill percents. It is what Zelda players should be looking for when playing other characters. U-Smash and F-Smash can be escaped, F-tilt is weak, LK's are not guaranteed, and D-Smash is nice but you have to shoot them to the edge.

If you are looking for a reliable kill move for Zelda, I can't see how you can dismiss the possibility of trying to have U-Smash combo into an aerial. Even then, it is not guaranteed. U-Smash is escapable. Reading the DI wrong can result in a missed opportunity. Performing the wrong aerial can miss a kill. If Fox grabs me, throws me, chases and U-Smash before I can move due to hit stun for the kill, then how is this considered broken? I know throws have not been cracked, but kill combos should be encouraged I would think.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Uthrow - uair against fast fallers. Guaranteed KO
Ftilt - uair against anything else (DI dependent)
Din's - uair (lol)

That's more than enough opportunity for the strongest uair in the game, which is why I'd rather see Usmash as a fallback KO move. In its current state it's quite weak.

 

[Yingyay]

It is a slow projectile with a big hit box. There isn't anything they could do to make it "more competitive." I accepted long ago that it was not a projectile to be spammed. It is a tool to disrupt approaches, recoveries, and now is a combo move when it connects.

I just don't want to die if I accidentally use it over the ledge or on yoshi's island. Which will happen until they fix the free fall code which they are currently working on. I have been told it is a really difficult thing to decode, and they have been working on it for some time.

I'm not sure what you imagine dins to be, but unless it moved really fast and became a quick release, it will not be like any other projectile in the game.

Come to think of it, a long time ago I played a hacked game of brawl where no moves made you free fall. There has a way to manipulate it so that it's character specific. Sorry for not being able to actually give you the code.


Zelda
-Uair setup is cheap? Then i guess Falcon knee setups make him broken, Marth's Fair-dair is broken, Kirby's fthrow -smash = brokez i could go on.

 

[Veril]

Zelda's up-air is very powerful and also very difficult to hit with. One of the few reliable setups for it likewise is somewhat difficult to hit with. Despite this, I feel that simply having moves as powerful as these limits an opponents options. When you play vBrawl Jiggs, a lot of landing rest came down to reading and punishing airdodges and simply placing the opponent in a situation where he must either dodge or get up-aired and/or rested.

Zelda+ is waaayyyy better than vBrawl Jiggs and we've got hitstun now. Are you absolutely sure Din's is the only means of comboing into up-air, and that there is really no way to hit with Din's? I mean, you guys know more about Zelda+ than me but I always like to be sure before I assume there's no way to setup something. I mean... my real contribution to Jigglypuff's game was finding and testing the use of rest as a combo breaker, a move people had been saying was terrible and had no real setup but drill-rest.

So I always get sortof interested in looking at landing supremely powerful moves... And I'm sure something combos into Din's fire... and other things combo into f-air. Basically in the same manner I suspect that f-tilt may have a purpose.

My wii will be back tomorrow or monday... I am going to find this s***, or confirm that it doesn't exist. I am going to do this because Zelda is awesome.

Lets give her the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Andarel]

Yingyay, that code has been made. However, it currently also gives Zelda unlimited up-B teleports, which is not a good thing balance-wise. It's being worked on.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

-Uair setup is cheap? Then i guess Falcon knee setups make him broken, Marth's Fair-dair is broken, Kirby's fthrow -smash = brokez i could go on.

The vast majority of Falcon's knee setups don't work or are extremely difficult with proper DI. Marth's Fair-Dair is far from guaranteed and is meteor cancelable. Kirby's fthrow links into nothing at killing percents.

A reliable Usmash-uair kill for Zelda would be more or less easy mode follow DI - dead off the top starting from the 50s. Yeah... people would be all for that.

 

[Bandit]

Uthrow - uair against fast fallers. Guaranteed KO
Ftilt - uair against anything else (DI dependent)
Din's - uair (lol)

That's more than enough opportunity for the strongest uair in the game, which is why I'd rather see Usmash as a fallback KO move. In its current state it's quite weak.

1) She has one of the worst grabs in the game. To attempt a grab against a spacey is not only risky, but it is just irresponsible. Just to get that setup started is not reliable.

2) Anything DI dependent is considered not to work. You always assume the opponent knows how to DI the move. This is why any d-throw combo that is reported is ignored.

3) This is not reliable either, but it is the only setup that seems to consistently work when it connects.

I will try U-Throw but I doubt I will see many results with the speed of the other characters and their ability to avoid her grabs.

FYI - When U-Smash starting in the 50's would combo to U-Air in the version 3 series of b+, it would not kill. Dash attack to U-air in the 60's to 70's would kill only if they were jiggly weight or very low ceiling. U-Air does not kill on most of the cast until at least 80+% and that is the lighter characters. It's a great power move that gains a lot of power, but it is not as strong as you make it out to be.