Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Timbers]

what was the point of zelda vs fox debate about "deadzones" and stuff if the in-the-end conclusion is zelda will just go sheik against fox's most widely accepted and used playstyle

 

[PhantomX]

Zelda vs Fox is 90:10 b/c she can change to another character!

 

[KayLo!]

what was the point of zelda vs fox debate about "deadzones" and stuff if the in-the-end conclusion is zelda will just go sheik against fox's most widely accepted and used playstyle

Because some people fail to realize this is the Zelda matchup thread and that not everyone plays Sheik.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Because some people fail to realize this is the Zelda matchup thread and that not everyone plays Sheik.

I know. But not to do so is gimping yourself...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I know. But not to do so is gimping yourself...

not if you don't like sheik at all.

 

[KayLo!]

I know. But not to do so is gimping yourself...

In that case, why don't we all just switch to MK right now? *eye roll*

It's beneficial to note where in a matchup Sheik does better, but making a whole post that basically says "switch to Sheik" is the opposite of helpful in a Zelda matchup thread. Get that mess outta here, go to the Sheik boards.

Some people choose not to play Sheik despite the benefits of doing otherwise, myself included. We know Zelda sucks on her own, but playing a good character is obviously not the reason we choose to play her, lol.

(P.S. The exception to this post is MrEh. He's allowed to troll because he's so f'ing good at it. )

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I know. But not to do so is gimping yourself...

No, edgeguarding with the appearing hitbox of FW would be gimping yourself. Going with Zelda just makes the match much challenging, annoying and spamtastic.


As a more serious note:

Well, I guess you could say Zelda has an adv. if Fox is the one approaching, but even then it's only slight.

I agree, but since that doesn´t really happen I think that the MU ratio should be decided based on the situation where Fox is camping his tail off and Zelda approaches.

 

[KayLo!]

I hate putting numbers on matchups, but since no one has given a ratio yet...... 40:60 Fox. Just to get the ball rolling.

I'd go a little worse, but I think that'd be too pessimistic.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

not if you don't like sheik at all.

maybe you don't like metaknight's B moves.... it's still gimping yourself not to use them

In that case, why don't we all just switch to MK right now? *eye roll*

the difference is that sheik is attached and you know that

Anyway, I make the point, even so, just to say that this REALLY isn't a matchup that should be happening unless you have an aggro fox just because, in practicallity, most people should and will be switching to sheik.

now that that's out of the way.

I hate putting numbers on matchups, but since no one has given a ratio yet...... 40:60 Fox. Just to get the ball rolling.

I'd go a little worse, but I think that'd be too pessimistic.

he's good against us, but we kill him really easily. I suppose that's fair.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

zelda pov

he's good against us, but we kill him really easily. I suppose that's fair.

and he kills us real easy, even more so since his KOs stay fresh, besides you can't kill what you can't catch. >.>

im fine w/ 60:40 Fox.

 

[Brinzy]

lol, Zelda beats nobody.

 

[Lightning93]

60:40 sounds good to me.

And lol @ Jiggly referring to Fox in third person. Not used to it.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

fox pov

lol @ Jiggly referring to Fox in third person. Not used to it.

lol

he's good against us, but we kill him really easily. I suppose that's fair.

and we kill her real easy, even more so since our KOs stay fresh, besides Zelda can't kill what she can't catch. >.>

im fine w/ 60:40 Fox.

Spoiler

10multimaincomplexes

 

[Darkmusician]

60:40 Fox's favor.

 

[Kataefi]

And with that we can move on to a new character...
What characters havn't we done?
I've lost track completely =p

I'll post a new character tonight after my hideous exam

 

[adumbrodeus]

You've established your point a long time ago. I get what your saying and there is some truth to it in theory. I've just been trying to correct the parts I feel are incorrect. It's obvious that no agreement is going to be made on anything so I'm all for moving on to talking about something else as well.

That was not a wall of text... your quoted post made up about half the wordcount.

Beyond a point that you never mentioned before, that you think Zelda is better off in Fox's close combat zone, where's the substantial point of disagreement?

Zelda will have to go into Fox's close combat zone eventually. Spacing smashes and never going all the way up to him is silly. The lack of safe lasers in the dead zone is nothing to Fox against Zelda.

Why? Zelda has no particular advantage against fox when she gets that close, she has to take so large a risk, it's really not worth it to her to go all the way.

Approaching into dead zone or w/e it's all part of the process of getting to Fox so it's still approaching to me.

I know that now, but that's not really the issue. What meaning is more practical side-steps the entire issue of lack of universally accepted technical languages which makes it impossible to properly discuss match-ups like this.

It's literally speaking a different language.

Zelda can't really hold Fox in the dead zone anyway. He's too fast and Zelda is really easy to bait and punish.

Which is why the match-up isn't in her favor (among other things), but with her horrible approach options, it's better then fully approaching.

The range where "lasering can be punished" is a gigantic variable depending on how Fox is controlling his SHDL/SHL and what his next move will be upon landing. Whether Zelda is approaching Fox or the deadzone, she's still approaching Fox, as Fox controls where both he and this deadzone will be, not Zelda. If Fox were a super slow character I'd be more inclined to support this deadzone stuff, but Fox is not slow lol.

True, I was refering to it in the most minimal sense, we'll assume that fox is lasering for max dps at max range, and switching up his style as each becomes unsafe.

Understand, I was using "approach" as a very technical term, which some boards do, where it refered only to moving through the opponent's safe melee zone, the reason being that you need to cover approaches through the zones, and that's where approach options come in. "Approach" in the sense of moving towards your opponent really isn't a helpful term in match-up discussions because it really doesn't convay advantages or disadvantages, however "moving through your opponent's melee safe zone" definately is always match-up changing.

This happens.


Fox runs away and shoots more lasers. If I'm Fox and a Zelda has cornered me at the ledge, what do you think I'm going to do? Am I going to freak out because "OH NOES! ZELDA REACHED THE DEAD ZONE! MY CAMPING I USELESS NOW!" Or am I just going to laugh? I'm going to laugh, because Zelda is slow and predictable, and even when cornered at the ledge, I can see countless ways for Fox to get past her and camp again.

Even if Fox doesn't make camping a priority, he can always just run away, pelt you with lasers, and force an approach again. Laser's as free damage is nice, but lasers forcing an approach is even better, because Zelda's approach sucks and is super punishable.

And then she moves forward.

Yes, there are plenty of ways to get past her, however they all involve baiting her and then doing it, because all of them are punishable on reaction if she's not otherwise occupied.

But still, she's at a large disadvantage in that situation.

Still, if she FAILS and fox does get past her, what's her best option? Repeat the process, hope to do better and eventually beat him.


This of course speaks to how horrible her approach options are, even in this extremely disadvantaged situation, she's better off then approaching.

^Yes.

Anyways, what I see happening now is discussion over technicalities, when I think what the community really wants right now are concrete numbers. What was the agreed ratio?

I could go into dash attack vs. n-air, or what's going through my mind as I space SHDL, but all of it is extremely situational, and this is where I find experience being your best friend. This is why I don't feel I have much else to say besides the post above me.

Thanks everyone, I think this matchup needed a little re-working from what the Fox boards concluded.

That wasn't a technically, figuring out Zelda's optimal strategy is essential to figuring out the match-up ratio.

65-35 Fox's advantage.

Summery:

As was described earlier, Zelda only has to enter Fox's laser deadzone, so she doesn't have to cover herself with one of her horrible approach options.

However, it doesn't do much for her in this case, as was described earlier, she cannot prevent fox from moving back until the stage end, and even there, she's at a signifigant disadvantage keeping him there. The reason ties directly into the reason why he's got an advantage in that position anyway.

He's got a major advantage in the baiting and punishing game, her moves have too much start and end lag, they're powerful sure, and in a clash they beat out just about everything fox has as far as priority. The problem is, fox will be winning far too often, because he's faster in every sense of the word, Zelda just won't be able to make up for it.

She can combo him off up-smash, and start's edguarding him at early percents, and can certainly kill him quite early, but the overall issue is that getting even a few "wins" against fox in his deadzone is a chore, but when it happens, take advantage of it, in general, your best hope is predicting an attempt to bait and punish.

That said, there's another issue with his superior bait and punish game, if he baits her into something, he doesn't have to just punish, he can move past her and restart the process of lasering, which tag on a good amount of additional damage overall because it adds up (this more then negates the earlier kills from fox being near the edge of the stage).


Overall: Hope you're a Zelda/Sheik player!


Ehhh, I think you guys are being a bit optimistic in the 60-40, but I guess it's close enough.

 

[KayLo!]

Somebody spends too much time in the Debate Hall........ @.@

 

[adumbrodeus]

Somebody spends too much time in the Debate Hall........ @.@

Lol, match-ups are precision things, they often need walls of text.


All you really need to pay attention to is the match-up summery (the rest was just responses, so unless you agree with their view, you can ignore the rest).

 

[MrEh]

Some people choose not to play Sheik despite the benefits of doing otherwise, myself included. We know Zelda sucks on her own, but playing a good character is obviously not the reason we choose to play her, lol.

If someone willingly chooses to main Zelda, then they are a whole new level of crazy. As a Bowser main, I approve.

(P.S. The exception to this post is MrEh. He's allowed to troll because he's so f'ing good at it.

This.

lol, Zelda beats nobody.

Nonsense. Zelda goes even with another Zelda.

Ehhh, I think you guys are being a bit optimistic in the 60-40, but I guess it's close enough.

Ehhh, I think there's too much theorycraft in here.


Zelda has the advantage if Fox is approaching like a moron. If he plays well (campy) then it's in his favor by a noticable amount. Since only ******** Foxes approach like morons, we should judge the matchup as if the Fox was camping like crazy. Defensive Fox laughs at Zelda.

60-40 in Fox's favor

 

[Lightning93]

That wasn't a technically, figuring out Zelda's optimal strategy is essential to figuring out the match-up ratio.

I was referring to Fox's "mindset" or complete list of options he has during SHDL camping. This seemed too situational to me, so I considered it a technicality that didn't need further "match-up" discussion. I hope I can say I understand match-up discussion quite well, and that I don't lose credibility. X)

I also hope you guys remember that Fox does have combos, and personally if I have an opportunity to use them while punishing, I will. I won't be resetting my SHDL game every single time I am cornered, unless Zelda somehow changes into Shiek, in which case I'm screwed anyways.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Summery

I always thought of Zelda as being more autumnal or wintery myself...

 

[Microbe]

I always thought of Zelda as being more autumnal or wintery myself...

I agree, she has a sort of autumn melancholy about her no?

 

[KayLo!]

I agree. Definitely autumn.

 

[Brinzy]

Nonsense. Zelda goes even with another Zelda.

Hahaha, oh god...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Nonsense. Zelda goes even with another Zelda.

lies zelda dittos is 10:90 Zelda

I agree. Definitely autumn.

i agree.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ehhh, I think there's too much theorycraft in here.

Well, what's wrong with it?

Realistically, we've all gone through how horrible Zelda's approach options are, so if you have some reason why she's better off approaching then sticking around the deadzone, please do tell.

Zelda has the advantage if Fox is approaching like a moron. If he plays well (campy) then it's in his favor by a noticable amount. Since only ******** Foxes approach like morons, we should judge the matchup as if the Fox was camping like crazy. Defensive Fox laughs at Zelda.

60-40 in Fox's favor

Isn't that just about every match-up?

I was referring to Fox's "mindset" or complete list of options he has during SHDL camping. This seemed too situational to me, so I considered it a technicality that didn't need further "match-up" discussion. I hope I can say I understand match-up discussion quite well, and that I don't lose credibility. X)

Got you.

I also hope you guys remember that Fox does have combos, and personally if I have an opportunity to use them while punishing, I will. I won't be resetting my SHDL game every single time I am cornered, unless Zelda somehow changes into Shiek, in which case I'm screwed anyways.

Yes, but it's always to your advantage to not be cornered, even if you wanna play bait and punish. Still, you have the choice when you successfully bait Zelda.

I always thought of Zelda as being more autumnal or wintery myself...

OoT Zelda is summer, TP/TP visual style Zelda is autumn (ok, I don't know fashion, don't kill me)

On a side note, I was using a browser without a spell-check for that post and didn't realize it till afterwards, so it's probably far from the only mistake.

lies zelda dittos is 10:90 Zelda

Nah, 100:0, Zelda always wins.

It's like Ganon dittos, no matter what happens, evil prevails, so it all good.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

OoT Zelda is summer, TP/TP visual style Zelda is autumn (ok, I don't know fashion, don't kill me)

..... straight people.


Anyway, it just stood out to me and was funny. I wasn't intending on mocking you or anything, just making use of the typo.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda dittos are ********. Like... they aren't even fun.

Grounded Zelda >>>>>>>>>>>>> airborne Zelda

Fsmash trades = fail

Dsmash clashes = fail

Overall, it's just a stupid match-up.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda dittos are ********. Like... they aren't even fun.

Grounded Zelda >>>>>>>>>>>>> airborne Zelda

Fsmash trades = fail

Dsmash clashes = fail

Overall, it's just a stupid match-up.

I normally go sheik just to be different and then switch back to zelda once I get a cushy lead. Once the other Zelda has to approach... well, it's bad for her.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zelda dittos are ********. Like... they aren't even fun.......unless your on Yoshi's, now thats entertainment.

fixed it for ya

and um, since we're kinda done with Fox whos the next person?

 

[Kataefi]

Cool! Who havn't we done then? Can anybody remember? I think we've done almost everybody now... so I can go and make even more rediscussion threads. I'm waiting for the new tier list to come so I can keep everything in order.

Zelda's going in low tier iirc... so our plan of action is to step her game up up UP! =D

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Zelda dittos in Luigi´s Mansion are ********. Like... they aren't even fun. On Yoshi´s, however...

fixed it for ya

Fixed it for both of you.

Cool! Who havn't we done then?

Have we already decided the ratios for Mario and Tink?

 

[KayLo!]

Zelda's going in low tier iirc... so our plan of action is to step her game up up UP! =D

I'm actually going to be really happy if Zelda does end up in low tier. Then I can use her for low tier tournaments, FINALLY.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Samus & Ganondorf are missing.

 

[MrEh]

Zelda's going in low tier iirc... so our plan of action is to step her game up up UP! =D

Some guy claims that Bowser and Zelda are right next to each other in the new tier list.

If that's true, then me and DM are gonna wreck low tier tournies. lol

 

[adumbrodeus]

Samus

Next up perhaps?

& Ganondorf

65-35, Zelda.

Two words, Dash attack.

Why?

Would've been a safe on block move that could force Zelda to approach, but dash attack comes out too fast.

Otherwise, they're both slow defensive characters, but Zelda wins on almost every exchange because of her superior speed and priority. Just remember not to punish up-smash with anything that isn't safe on block (Zelda has moves like this), and you're good.

F-smash ***** in this match-up, use it, love it. Ganon's also pretty easy to lightning kick. Just watch out when you get too close, he's got nasty combos off dair.

Also, it's relatively easy to be safe, so, don't get flame-choked. Instant dash attack is guaranteed unless you do a get-up attack, and dtilt is guaranteed off not rolling outwards (that assumes Ganon can do the techs required). On the plus side, he can't chain choke you because rolling out goes too far (at least, if you're not on a platform that is too small). Ganon will just about never approach with this move, so as long as you don't leave yourself with 16 frames of lag (absolute min, in reality it's always longer because he has some travel time), you're good, just about any hitbox Zelda can produce will hit him out of it. Oh and don't shield it please.

In general, be careful with recoveries, Ganondorf sends you off-stage really early because he's powerful, and he can easily create some gimptastic positions. Both ftilt (to knock offstage) and uair (follow-up) put Zelda in very vulnerable positions, and if you don't sweet-spot the ledge initially, or land onstage after an FW, you're at least eating an f-smash, up-tilt is also a very real possibility (advantage, vacuum effect can turn a just missed sweetspot that will snap on in a bit to an onstage landing). It's harder for Ganon to uair her off-stage then most though, because of her recovery. Ganon definately has the off-stage advantage, especially since she can't afford to go far enough off-stage to really chase Ganon well, but Din's fire harassment DOES limit options or tack on damage.


Overall: Play safe, you'll be fine.

(PS. Ganondorf is my other omg, I know everything there is to know about him secondary)

are missing.

1 down, thoughts?

Edit: In case anyone was wondering, I think we should do a discussion, on it, but here's the Ganondorf result in a nutshell.

 

[Brinzy]

Some guy claims that Bowser and Zelda are right next to each other in the new tier list.

If that's true, then me and DM are gonna wreck low tier tournies. lol

Might as well put her in low. Her current position does nothing for her at all.

Though I wonder... would Sheik be allowed in these tournaments in conjunction with Zelda or no? Because, what if I accidentally hit Down B, for example.

 

[MrEh]

Though I wonder... would Sheik be allowed in these tournaments in conjunction with Zelda or no? Because, what if I accidentally hit Down B, for example.

Probably not.

If you hit it by accident, then it's up the TO and the player you're fighting. If they're kind enough, they might let you change back. There's nothing stopping the TO from disqualifying you if he wants though.

 

[KayLo!]

Might as well put her in low. Her current position does nothing for her at all.

Though I wonder... would Sheik be allowed in these tournaments in conjunction with Zelda or no? Because, what if I accidentally hit Down B, for example.

I've done that 2 or 3 times..... I even did it once in tourney, lol, but luckily I managed pretty well with Sheik long enough to change back.

For some reason, I thought I was Pika for a split second and tried to thunder (once, anyway -- the other times were just mistakes)........... Yeah, I'm.... stupid. Wouldn't be very happy if I got DQ'd because of it, though.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

nothing's worse than thinking you're still peach and attempting to pull a turnip when you are REALLY jigglypuff.... ouch