Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[KayLo!]

Are these close range or long range lasers? The 3's make me think these are from close range (I remember reading somewhere that Fox's lasers do less damage at long range).

Whoever tested it probably tested at mid-range, but that's just a guess on my part. Mostly lasers will be doing between 1-2%.

I think you're right about them doing less damage at long range..... I think that goes for all the spacies' blasters.

Another fun fact from the guide (since I went and looked, I might as well share, hehe): lasers come out at a rate of 1 per 10 frames.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

(I'd love to see someone run > powershield > run > powershield successfully through Fox's blaster spam, though..... that'd be hilarious. ).

have you seen Peachs "royal guard" tech by Marc pch.? PS all the way in style.

Dsmash is his next best killer after Usmash cause it can also be comboed into i think.....

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

have you seen Peachs "royal guard" tech by Marc pch.? PS all the way in style.

Dsmash is his next best killer after Usmash cause it can also be comboed into i think.....

It certainly has the nastiest trajectory, but that also makes it techable if CCd. I think it has the lowest knockback of all of his smashes though, and it has awful cooldown.

 

[MrEh]

EDIT: MrEh, thank you for my three Super Machomans. I will cherish them always. ;-;

When one Super Machoman isn't enough, you need three.

Another fun fact from the guide (since I went and looked, I might as well share, hehe): lasers come out at a rate of 1 per 10 frames.

6 shots a second is serious business.

Dsmash is his next best killer after Usmash cause it can also be comboed into i think.....

Fox can't really combo into anything, but his moves can string well. And that's the main problem, since Zelda lacks any sort of decent GTFO move to stop Fox if he manages to get inside of Zelda. Zelda's Usmash can stop Fox's Dair, but no competent Fox will spam Dair against you. Dair spam is very punishable, so most Fox players will use it sparingly, and try to hit you with it if you screw up. After a Dair, Fox can string it into a lot of things, so you need to be careful.

Whether Fox is camping you or rushing you, he can rack up damage surprisingly quick. Laser damage racks up fast, and if Fox gets a good read on you, you're going to get comboed. Fox is sort of like Ike. One good read is all they need to start killing you. If you become predictable against Fox, he can punish like crazy.

Combined with Zelda's low weight, he can kill her very early. (although the reverse is obviously true as well) When you're in death percents, be very careful not to wiff anything. If you lag in front of Fox, you're going to get Usmashed. Fox can punish even the smallest big of lag with a Usmash, so watch out.

 

[adumbrodeus]

*sigh*


Ok, since everyone with a projectile (including Zelda) outcamps Marth, I have to approach in every match-up against a projectile user, right?


Seriously, nobody is asking the important questions in this match-up when it comes to lasers, what is the min safe range that fox can use them? What is fox's safe max melee range in this match-up? Are they equal?

The first establishes the zone that Zelda is safe from lasers in the match-up (because she can punish on raction, and yes that's the criteria we're using to establish "safe" because almost nothing is safe on prediction). The second establishes where fox can fight Zelda in melee without having to approach. The third, well if melee range isn't larger then min laser range then there's a dead zone. That's where the majority of the game will happen because fox has nothing to actively prevent Zelda from going there.

Now, we question, is zelda's safe melee range equal or greater then Fox's, if so, she'll approach to that distance, and safely poke at him, forcing him to approach.


Now, granted, these questions don't fully apply to every match-up, but right here, the three questions I asked about Fox's melee versus projectile range are crucial, because if fox safely covers that area Zelda is forced to approach, if he doesn't, going to the dead zone isn't really an approach because he can't really molest her there, so she can just react defensively.


That's what I've been trying to get across, if we're assuming a player will do something, we must question "why"? And without this crucial piece of data we cannot prove that piece of behavior (Zelda approaches).


And that's really what the match-up comes down to, I've said before that fox seems to have a large dead zone in this match-up, anyone care to refute and prove that zelda needs to approach?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

A good fox should be concious of this dead space and try to prevent zelda from going there but, yeah, there IS definitely a dead space for fox. My experience is normally that, once that dead space is reached, it's the player who's behind that comes the rest of the way.

Zelda lacks a decent approach against fox, but Zelda's defensive game straight up beats fox's approaches if he doesn't trick her. For this reason, neither character really WANTS to approach, but someone's gonna have to.


And, I don't agree that Zelda doesn't have any GTFO moves. Dsmash and nayru's can work quite well.

 

[MrEh]

anyone care to refute and prove that zelda needs to approach?

This is why.

And, I don't agree that Zelda doesn't have any GTFO moves. Dsmash and nayru's can work quite well.

Since we're discussing Fox, you might want to watch this video.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Since we're discussing Fox, you might want to watch this video.

:-| I am not amused.


nayru's has a quick statup time, is invincible on startups and hits on both sides, it's a GOOD GTFO move.

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is why.

...

LRN2READ

Marth doesn't have to approach vs most projectiles, he just has to get to the deadzone (where he can poke and almost always force THEM to approach).

The question here is, IN THIS MATCH-UP DOES FOX HAVE A PROJECTILE DEADZONE? If so, Zelda just has to get to it, not approach (it's only an "approach" if you have to get through a portion of the opponent's safe melee zone, otherwise it's just movement).

 

[Brinzy]

Yes, Fox has a deadzone. The moment he SHs a laser when she's in dash attack/grab range or, even better, taking a small step forward and using an ftilt or whatever is best for the range is the moment when he's vulnerable. She already outranges him, so staying in this range is mainly what gives her an advantage here, though she must be careful to not be baited at this range because Fox can punish in time.

I don't know why people are placing so much emphasis on the fact that Zelda can be camped at specific ranges. lol oh noes, she gets camped long-range, so let's stand here and look stupid.

 

[sniperworm]

nayru's has a quick statup time, is invincible on startups and hits on both sides, it's a GOOD GTFO move.

I've never really been convinced that Naryu's was a good GTFO move. The invincibility kicks in early, which is nice, but it doesn't actually hit until frame 13 which really sucks considering this move gets you destroyed if it's blocked. Invincibility actually misses a frame too (invincible from 5-11, hits on 13, wtf...) which leads to a lot of getting beaten out/trading hits when you should've just been invincible (and trading hits sucks because Naryu's is a multi-hit move). That combined with the fact that the move fails to send people away from you unless they're pretty close and I'm not that happy with it.

That being said, Dsmash is where it's at.

Marth doesn't have to approach vs most projectiles, he just has to get to the deadzone (where he can poke and almost always force THEM to approach).

The question here is, IN THIS MATCH-UP DOES FOX HAVE A PROJECTILE DEADZONE? If so, Zelda just has to get to it, not approach (it's only an "approach" if you have to get through a portion of the opponent's safe melee zone, otherwise it's just movement).

You are correct that Fox does have a projectile dead zone. However, Zelda is not Marth. She lacks movement speed and attack speed on her spacing moves. She also severely lacks the aerial zoning skills that Marth is so good at. So when Fox is in that deadzone, she still doesn't particularly threaten him (Ftilt and Fsmash can be blocked on reaction by most people) and since she's slower, there's little stopping Fox from leaving that zone.

This is why Zelda actually does have to approach against most projectiles.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've never really been convinced that Naryu's was a good GTFO move. The invincibility kicks in early, which is nice, but it doesn't actually hit until frame 13 which really sucks considering this move gets you destroyed if it's blocked. Invincibility actually misses a frame too (invincible from 5-11, hits on 13, wtf...) which leads to a lot of getting beaten out/trading hits when you should've just been invincible (and trading hits sucks because Naryu's is a multi-hit move). That combined with the fact that the move fails to send people away from you unless they're pretty close and I'm not that happy with it.

That being said, Dsmash is where it's at.

Maybe I just have godly skills with Nayru's, but I almost ALWAYS make good use of those invincibility frames... and a 2 frame hole is hardly anything to complain about.

That having been said, yes, Dsmash is generally better, but nayru's has some benefits

• It hits behind you
• it ALWAYS puts the foe in front of you
• it can be used in the air.
• it lasts longer, which punishes dodge attempts (though gets it rawked by sheilds)

You are correct that Fox does have a projectile dead zone. However, Zelda is not Marth. She lacks movement speed and attack speed on her spacing moves. She also severely lacks the aerial zoning skills that Marth is so good at. So when Fox is in that deadzone, she still doesn't particularly threaten him (Ftilt and Fsmash can be blocked on reaction by most people) and since she's slower, there's little stopping Fox from leaving that zone.

This is why Zelda actually does have to approach against most projectiles.

That says to me that Zelda just has a smaller dead-zone, but it doesn't mean that she doesn't have one at all.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You are correct that Fox does have a projectile dead zone. However, Zelda is not Marth. She lacks movement speed and attack speed on her spacing moves. She also severely lacks the aerial zoning skills that Marth is so good at. So when Fox is in that deadzone, she still doesn't particularly threaten him (Ftilt and Fsmash can be blocked on reaction by most people) and since she's slower, there's little stopping Fox from leaving that zone.

This is why Zelda actually does have to approach against most projectiles.

As I suggested before, in the zone, it's basically a stalemate, until somebody finally baits something useful.


As far as getting out of the zone, you have a few options:

1. Retreat (limited by the fact that Zelda can follow you, and you only have limited space to retreat to, eventually you won't be able to retreat anymore, and you're stuck in the deadzone).

2. Go through Zelda (every attempt is punishable on reaction, running through her without baiting something first is basically asking to get hit back and shouldn't be considered. Rolling is very punishable as should be obvious. Illusion doesn't come out till frame 21, plenty of time for Zelda to Jab, dash attack, nair, or up-smash on reaction, and at the top of the metagame enough to naryu, that was just the long-lasting hitboxes, if Zelda times properly, she can use single-hit moves too)

3. Jump over Zelda (do I reallly need to reinforce the fact that it generally isn't good to be above zelda?)



All of those options give singifigant disadvantages (or in the case of 1, eventually becomes impossible) so sticking around in the dead zone and baiting something is preferable.

That says to me that Zelda just has a smaller dead-zone, but it doesn't mean that she doesn't have one at all.

Fox has a smaller deadzone against Zelda then against Marth, yes, but not because of this. That was more discussing fox's advantage in avoiding, however it this case it merely delays the inevitable.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

...if Zelda times properly, she can use single-hit moves too...

though primarily based on luck, it feels SOOOOOOOOOOOO good to lightning kick a fox-illusion.

 

[KayLo!]

I have to agree with sniperworm on the Naryu's thing. In my experience, Naryu's tends to trade hits a lot, and sometimes the knockback is so low/non-existent, you get punished even if it hits. Who made the frames for this move?!

You are correct that Fox does have a projectile dead zone. However, Zelda is not Marth. She lacks movement speed and attack speed on her spacing moves. She also severely lacks the aerial zoning skills that Marth is so good at. So when Fox is in that deadzone, she still doesn't particularly threaten him (Ftilt and Fsmash can be blocked on reaction by most people) and since she's slower, there's little stopping Fox from leaving that zone.

This is why Zelda actually does have to approach against most projectiles.

Too true. I played the matchup vs. two different Foxes last night just to refresh/re-confirm my knowledge a little, and. Yeah. Again, what sniper said. (It was wifi, but the opportunity came up, so whatevs.)

Getting into Fox's dead zone isn't the hard part..... it's keeping him there that's a *****. He's a lot faster than Zelda in terms of ground and attack speed, so if you whiff anything even in his "dead zone," he can just run in and grab you since you're going to be lagging for a while. Even if you have perfect accuracy, one of two things will happen:

1) Fox will say "f it" and run away again. Unless you have him backed up into a pretty tight corner, this isn't too hard for him to do. Even if he is trapped, he can Illusion through you if you're not prepared for it, or he can jump, optionally shinestall to bait a whiffed reaction from you, and Illusion past you overhead. Even with his landing lag, you won't be able to reach him in time unless you predicted it, because Zelda is godawfully slow, especially if you fell for his bait and whiffed an attack.

Once he does it a few times, though, it's not hard to predict (as adumbrodeus said, any number of Zelda's moves eat through Illusion). Besides, most Foxes won't be this lame.... the ones I played were just being super campy to prove a point.

2) You'll hit him, and he'll be knocked away. Better than him getting away with no damage, but it still forces you to get in and reset your spacing all over again. Also, good players will eventually start to DI out of fsmash somewhat consistently, so keep that in mind and watch for punishment off of that.​

Oh, and for everyone who says lasers don't make a huge difference: GTFO, lol. His lasers are a problem. I tried all the methods suggested just for the sake of trying them: running straight in, jumping/airdodging, rolling in, shielding as I went..... no matter what you do, those motherf'ers are fast, and you end up eating damage faster than you realize, especially if he decides to play keep-away. It's really frustrating. Adding his straight camp to the lasers he'll hit you with at random, that shiz adds up so fast.

I also tried the planking thing. Lulz, I don't need to tell you guys how that turned out.

Other little things I noticed:

- Timing a usmash is good when you know he's going to Illusion back onto the stage.... it'll eat right through it. Dsmash, as always, is good for forcing him to recover low if he doesn't DI it properly, but it should be pretty fresh when you're ready to use it that way.

- His smashes are extremely punishable. Don't miss these golden opportunities for free damage.

- At high percentages, you cannot whiff anything. Lasers and grab pummels will keep his KO moves very fresh throughout the match, so if you miss at close-mid range, his usmash will kill you. No questions asked, you're gonna lose that stock.

- Speaking of KO moves, his usmash and bair were the biggest concerns. Usmash is obviously a *****, but bair can be a problem when you're trying to recover, especially on stages with closer sidelines.

- His falling speed is a gift and a curse. Zelda's usmash ***** Fox (I don't think it was DI'd out of even once), but at the same time, if you're both in the air, he can get to the ground and underneath you if you're not careful. Don't get needlessly baited into the air and then ***** up the butt from below.

- Shinestalling will be used often for aerial mindgames & baiting. Combined with his speed & helicopter kick BS, predicting where Fox will go in the air can be a hassle if you aren't familiar with how he moves.

- Zelda's floatiness comes in handy in this MU. If you don't usmash through his dair, you can avoid some followups by DI'ing out of it.... similar to avoiding Jiggs's dair > rest combo. I found it much easier to do this with Zelda than Pika due to her aforementioned floatiness. Note that this depends on how many hits of dair he attempts to connect with before landing.

- Approaches through his camping..... hmm. Nothing really worked spectacularly, tbh. It was mostly trying to safely space attacks and react to what Fox did in response. SH'd nairs worked sometimes, as did fake-out fairs/bairs/nairs into fsmash or dsmash/dtilt on landing if he's being restless and aggressive. Nothing's even close to being guaranteed, though.

- Bait airdodges when you can. It's the most predictable and punishable thing Fox can do in the air, and since he falls so fast, he's likely to fall straight into a usmash/uair (or if you've got accurate feet, fair/bair).​

That's all I can think of for now. Honestly, there weren't any fancy tricks or strategies that helped.... just your basic rules of spacing and not running into the ****.

That being said, I did better with Pit and Pikachu (without CGing) than I could manage with Zelda. I don't even play Pit, and without the CG, Fox is a pretty bad matchup for Pika, so that should put some things into perspective...... x.o He's a little too fast for Zelda, imo. Let's stick to slow, bulky characters.

 

[Darkmusician]

I like Fox's jab/rapid jab. It's not nearly as good as Falco/Snake but it gets the job done. After about 2 matches I got the muscle memory for Fox back and I adjusted to Zelda's reach/speed(or lack there of)/tendencies. Wasn't really hard to adjust since Zelda lacks any real depth when it's all said and done. Fighting Zelda is pretty effortless I must say. Especially on long stages. BF was alright (not much room to run around) but I can use the platforms to my advantage as Fox.

And if played right standing lasers work just fine. A couple shots here and there and just play keep away until Zelda lags. If she gets close no problem Fox can just move around her usually. After all the lasers are used to make her come up to you (mid range/close range w/e) so I expect it anyways and can react accordingly.

Even if you don't factor in my personal mindgames/experience with Zelda, this match up is not too difficult for Fox to handle.

ggs KayLo. If you wanna do more testing just let me know.

 

[KayLo!]

ggs KayLo. If you wanna do more testing just let me know.

Hehe, ggs! I'll probably take you up on that offer.

I also forgot to mention that if you guys do play this matchup, pray for an aggro Fox. Campy Fox is so much worse than an aggressive one. Besides the fact that Zelda wasn't built for chasing people around, it'll eventually frustrate you as a player (which is part of the effectiveness of camping) and put you at a higher risk of making hasty, flustered decisions if you don't have a lot of patience.

 

[Brinzy]

Hm? Who says lasers aren't a problem?

Hopefully I'm not part of that group, because I said that lasers are not impossible to deal with like others are making it sound.


Also, when he camps, Down B. It's that simple. If you're playing solo Zelda, then you probably don't need the advice for a campy Fox.

 

[KayLo!]

Hm? Who says lasers aren't a problem?

Hopefully I'm not part of that group, because I said that lasers are not impossible to deal with like others are making it sound.

A number of people -- I actually went through and quoted everyone to whom this applies, buuuut then I decided I didn't wanna call people out -- clearly stated that Fox's lasers are merely an annoyance and/or not a large factor in the matchup.

While I'm not saying lasers are impossible to counter, I think they (+ his speed) are one of the main reasons why Fox > Zelda as far as this MU goes.

As for switching to Sheik: it's definitely your best option, but since I don't play Sheik, I have nothing more to say about that.

 

[Brinzy]

I dunno, doesn't calling the lasers an annoyance sorta give credit to them?

 

[KayLo!]

I dunno, doesn't calling the lasers an annoyance sorta give credit to them?

.....Not when they're such a large part of the matchup, imo. Calling them just an "annoyance" downplays how much they affect it.

But this really isn't a point worth discussing, lol.

 

[MrEh]

nayru's has a quick statup time, is invincible on startups and hits on both sides, it's a GOOD GTFO move.

Naryu's is a terrible GTFO move. I'm pretty sure every competent player here agrees. Some things are always debatable, but this is not. Naryu's is bad, plain and simple. SniperWorm and KayLo have already explained why. If you continue to think it's a good combo breaker, then prove it. Provide evidence of this working consistantly. If you cannot, then your points are moot.

Just an example at the top of my head, if Fox decides to Dair your shield, what are you going to do? Naryu's? Please, that won't work, because it's so horrible. Marth has a good combo breaker. Bowser has a good combo breaker. Zelda does not.

Maybe I just have godly skills with Nayru's

Of maybe you're just playing bad players, since you're not being punished for using such a horrible tactic.

LRN2READ

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. English please.

Marth doesn't have to approach vs most projectiles, he just has to get to the deadzone (where he can poke and almost always force THEM to approach).

Marth≠Zelda

Hm? Who says lasers aren't a problem?

A couple of people who have no idea what they're talking about. lol

I dunno, doesn't calling the lasers an annoyance sorta give credit to them?

Fox needs some compliments once in a while. ^^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Naryu's is a terrible GTFO move. I'm pretty sure every competent player here agrees. Some things are always debatable, but this is not. Naryu's is bad, plain and simple. SniperWorm and KayLo have already explained why. If you continue to think it's a good combo breaker, then prove it. Provide evidence of this working consistantly. If you cannot, then your points are moot.

Just an example at the top of my head, if Fox decides to Dair your shield, what are you going to do? Naryu's? Please, that won't work, because it's so horrible. Marth has a good combo breaker. Bowser has a good combo breaker. Zelda does not.

I gave the examples of when Nayru's worked as her best GTFO move.

If he's using dair on you, and he connects, then he's going to be IN FRONT of you, in which case Dsmash is your best bet. But if he's somehow behind you, it's either nayru's or nothing. And, back-to-back, nayru's is better than ANYTHING fox has.


Side note:
I really don't see how you think that you should be singularly exempt from rules about trolling.

 

[KayLo!]

If he's using dair on you, and he connects, then he's going to be IN FRONT of you, in which case Dsmash is your best bet. But if he's somehow behind you, it's either nayru's or nothing. And, back-to-back, nayru's is better than ANYTHING fox has.

Actually, the back hit of dsmash comes out on frame 12. The first hit of Naryu's comes out on frame 13. Even a reverse grab/pivot grab comes out at about the same time, lol.

Viewing them as ~equal speed, dsmash is still a better option in some cases despite NL's invincibility frames and possibly greater range?/disjointedness (I'm not exactly sure on the range thing).

For one, you may be godly with Naryu's, but for those of us existing on this planet, Naryu's will often trade hits. Frame 12 is a *****, and trading 1-2% for a single hit from your opponent is rarely worth it.

Also, Naryu's has some funky knockback. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but if you don't hit with the last hitbox, many times the opponent will end up right in front of you in a fantastic position to punish while you're still cooling down. I'm not sure if it's DI on their part or if it's just the way NL works, but I've had it happen so, so many times.

Anyway, neither attack is that great as a GTFO move. Frontal dsmash -- (that either sounds really dirty or really gross) -- is okay, but it's still not fabulous..... Naryu's kind of sucks, though.

 

[MrEh]

If he's using dair on you, and he connects, then he's going to be IN FRONT of you, in which case Dsmash is your best bet. But if he's somehow behind you, it's either nayru's or nothing. And, back-to-back, nayru's is better than ANYTHING fox has.

Fox's Dair is very safe upon hit. This is proven from frame data. The only way Zelda would be able to punish Fox would be if she had a frame advantage of 19. That's crazy.

Side note:
I really don't see how you think that you should be singularly exempt from rules about trolling

All of my posts have been relevant to the conversation at hand. If something is wrong, I say it's wrong. That's not trolling, that's called being a contributing member of the boards.

It's far better then posting incorrect information and claiming that it's the truth.

 

[PhantomX]

Trolling would be me coming in here and saying something to the extent of:

STFU, Kaylo, your opinion doesn't matter b/c you're a woman!

 

[sniperworm]

Hey guys, since we're talking about hitting someone behind us with a Dsmash, is it faster to turn around and Dsmash or to just hit with the second hit? I've been turning around and Dsmashing and it seems really fast to me (but I could be wrong, hence why I'm asking).

 

[KayLo!]

Trolling would be me coming in here and saying something to the extent of:

STFU, Kaylo, your opinion doesn't matter b/c you're a woman!

O.O

#slap !

Hey guys, since we're talking about hitting someone behind us with a Dsmash, is it faster to turn around and Dsmash or to just hit with the second hit? I've been turning around and Dsmashing and it seems really fast to me (but I could be wrong, hence why I'm asking).

Reverse dsmash is significantly faster than hitting with the second hit, especially if you buffer your turnaround.

 

[PhantomX]

But... but... why? I was just helping to prove a point! You're an educated and intelligent poster, so I don't disregard your input!

*cries in a corner*

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

people often forget this, but Dtilt isn't much slower than Dsmash, and, in some situations, it's a better option. As a GTFO move, the extra speed of Dsmash is clearly better, and it actually does get him OFF of you, but Dtilt's nice.

I've also never had a problem with people getting hit by must of nayru's but not the last hit. That leads me to believe it's probably a DI thing.





As for Mr. Eh

I've been trolling.

 

[RoyalBlood]

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Zelda's Up smash sucks Fox's Up smash :D

You need to be fairly close though, also, the fox is not going to be a psychic >_>

Now, can Zelda rely on gimps? Fox recovery is not very dangerous to edgeguard unlike let's say, MK . : l

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Now, can Zelda rely on gimps? Fox recovery is not very dangerous to edgeguard unlike let's say, MK . : l

if you predict which way hes going to go you can, Dair can even shut down both up and sideB. idk though, Foxs recovery can be very flexible....

 

[sniperworm]

Reverse dsmash is significantly faster than hitting with the second hit,

Sweet, so I wasn't imagining things.

especially if you buffer your turnaround.

Of course, I'm all about tech skill, lol.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if you predict which way hes going to go you can, Dair can even shut down both up and sideB. idk though, Foxs recovery can be very flexible....

his Up+B is rather easy to gimp if you can get yourself in position, but his Side+B is significantly harder to time. But, if you do time it right, pretty much anything can hit it.

If he's recovering above stage level, Uair will mutilate him, but usmash and utilt are a lot easier to hit with (depending on just how high he is). If he's REALLY high, just punish him upon his landing.

If he's recovering AT stage level, Dsmash will wreck him, but Dtilt and Fsmash are MUCH easier to hit with.

If you're off the stage trying to stop him, Dair and Uair are both VERY effective, but nair will hit more easily.

Nayru's works in pretty much any of the above situations to stop Fox-Illusion, and it's one of the easier to hit with because of the lingering hitboxes, but it's probably got the least knockback.

 

[Timbers]

You are correct that Fox does have a projectile dead zone. However, Zelda is not Marth. She lacks movement speed and attack speed on her spacing moves. She also severely lacks the aerial zoning skills that Marth is so good at. So when Fox is in that deadzone, she still doesn't particularly threaten him (Ftilt and Fsmash can be blocked on reaction by most people) and since she's slower, there's little stopping Fox from leaving that zone.

Also Marth has beast priority and disjointed properties to swat away projectiles (that aren't lasers) with ease. Irrelevant in the Fox matchup but Marth still has a better rushdown game, both in the ground and air.

- Timing a usmash is good when you know he's going to Illusion back onto the stage.... it'll eat right through it.

careful with this, as if he uses the illusion low enough to the ground, you will both trade hits, and given that (at higher percents) Zelda will be popped up into the air, and Fox will stay relatively close to the ground (unless you somehow knicked him with the one last tick of usmash) and Zelda will be airborne. Wouldn't utilt be safer/better in this situation? Even trading hits, Fox doesn't want to be hit by utilts.

If he's using dair on you, and he connects, then he's going to be IN FRONT of you, in which case Dsmash is your best bet. But if he's somehow behind you, it's either nayru's or nothing.

no, you're pretty screwed if dair connects, lol. Behind you, he has a 5 frame utilt to pop you up into the air, and in front of you he has grab/jab/dsmash/usmash. If you're not doing your best to take passive measures, you'll be taking heavy punishment.

Now, can Zelda rely on gimps? Fox recovery is not very dangerous to edgeguard unlike let's say, MK . : l

Read his double jump, as it's usually used in conjunction with fair. Makes him vulnerable...but in regards to Zelda, I don't know how deadly you'll be, seeing as shinestalling can ruin any pursuit Zelda attempts to make. Zelda's offstage game isn't much of a rush down.

his Up+B is rather easy to gimp if you can get yourself in position, but his Side+B is significantly harder to time. But, if you do time it right, pretty much anything can hit it.

If he's recovering above stage level, Uair will mutilate him, but usmash and utilt are a lot easier to hit with (depending on just how high he is). If he's REALLY high, just punish him upon his landing.

If he's recovering AT stage level, Dsmash will wreck him, but Dtilt and Fsmash are MUCH easier to hit with.

If you're off the stage trying to stop him, Dair and Uair are both VERY effective, but nair will hit more easily.

Nayru's works in pretty much any of the above situations to stop Fox-Illusion, and it's one of the easier to hit with because of the lingering hitboxes, but it's probably got the least knockback.

Just be aware of Fox's (somewhat) versatile recovering options. It seems like everything you mentioned is based on prediction, and Fox can stall (shinestall or fair boosted DJ) much longer than Zelda can keep these windows open. Also note that Fox's sideB can and will be cancelled at different times (if he even decides to cancel it) so as to not literally jump into the ****.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Just be aware of Fox's (somewhat) versatile recovering options. It seems like everything you mentioned is based on prediction, and Fox can stall (shinestall or fair boosted DJ) much longer than Zelda can keep these windows open. Also note that Fox's sideB can and will be cancelled at different times (if he even decides to cancel it) so as to not literally jump into the ****.

well yeah, there's SOME prediction, but also, not really since Illusion has enough startup that in most cases all zelda needs to do is not jump the gun.

as for stalling.... at least Zelda falls incredibly slowly. Often a curse, but in this case it has some good uses.

And I'm not saying Zelda WILL get these things off. That's just what she CAN do. The primary concern is getting into position in time.

 

[KayLo!]

careful with this, as if he uses the illusion low enough to the ground, you will both trade hits, and given that (at higher percents) Zelda will be popped up into the air, and Fox will stay relatively close to the ground (unless you somehow knicked him with the one last tick of usmash) and Zelda will be airborne. Wouldn't utilt be safer/better in this situation? Even trading hits, Fox doesn't want to be hit by utilts.

Utilt's the better option if you can hit consistently with it...... but I'm lazy, so I usually just usmash, lol.

For me, utilt is harder to hit with.... its hitbox travels, but it's not very big compared to usmash's.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Utilt's the better option if you can hit consistently with it...... but I'm lazy, so I usually just usmash, lol.

For me, utilt is harder to hit with.... its hitbox travels, but it's not very big compared to usmash's.

Usmash kills earlier if they are equally as fresh anyway. And, yes, it's much easier to hit with.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marth≠Zelda

Well, if you had actually bothered to READ MY POST, you'd recognize that I wasn't even remotely equating them.

I was using marth to show "out-projectile camped =/= forced to approach", with Marth being the easiest example.

Try to be on point and address the actual topic instead of strawmanning people.

Getting into Fox's dead zone isn't the hard part..... it's keeping him there that's a *****. He's a lot faster than Zelda in terms of ground and attack speed, so if you whiff anything even in his "dead zone," he can just run in and grab you since you're going to be lagging for a while. Even if you have perfect accuracy, one of two things will happen:

1) Fox will say "f it" and run away again. Unless you have him backed up into a pretty tight corner, this isn't too hard for him to do. Even if he is trapped, he can Illusion through you if you're not prepared for it, or he can jump, optionally shinestall to bait a whiffed reaction from you, and Illusion past you overhead. Even with his landing lag, you won't be able to reach him in time unless you predicted it, because Zelda is godawfully slow, especially if you fell for his bait and whiffed an attack.

Once he does it a few times, though, it's not hard to predict (as adumbrodeus said, any number of Zelda's moves eat through Illusion). Besides, most Foxes won't be this lame.... the ones I played were just being super campy to prove a point.​

The whiff is true, but if he just randomly illusions, you should successfully punish, wifi probably effected your ability because 21 frames of start-up is mad slow.


If he runs away, move foreward, it's that simple, he eventually gets backed into a corner.

2) You'll hit him, and he'll be knocked away. Better than him getting away with no damage, but it still forces you to get in and reset your spacing all over again. Also, good players will eventually start to DI out of fsmash somewhat consistently, so keep that in mind and watch for punishment off of that.

Which is why you need to prioritize not letting him get behind you, because if you do so, this actually accomplishes getting him backed up into a corner, and when he's backed up into a corner, revert to edgeguarding when you hit him.

Oh, and for everyone who says lasers don't make a huge difference: GTFO, lol. His lasers are a problem. I tried all the methods suggested just for the sake of trying them: running straight in, jumping/airdodging, rolling in, shielding as I went..... no matter what you do, those motherf'ers are fast, and you end up eating damage faster than you realize, especially if he decides to play keep-away. It's really frustrating. Adding his straight camp to the lasers he'll hit you with at random, that shiz adds up so fast.

Yes, they do tack on damage, but they don't force an approach, which was what we were talking about here mainly.​

 

[sniperworm]

@adumbrodeus - I'm not trying to imply anything with this question, but I felt like asking so I'm going to ask...

Do you use Zelda or Fox? Or are you more of a 3rd party like MrEh and PhantomX?

I'm just curious is all.