Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[sniperworm]

his blaster takes time to put away. If we're close enough... he can't pull a blaster out or we can reach him before he can put the blaster away.

I'd just like to point out that Fox generally doesn't shoot grounded lasers unless you're really far away. He'll probably be jumping/running around poking you with those lagless lasers as he lands from jumps (assuming you're not right on him while he's landing in which case he'll do something else).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'd just like to point out that Fox generally doesn't shoot grounded lasers unless you're really far away. He'll probably be jumping/running around poking you with those lagless lasers as he lands from jumps (assuming you're not right on him while he's landing in which case he'll do something else).

even when he's doing that. if we're close enough, we can hit him as he lands. Fox's lasers are annoying, but they are hardly matchup altering.

 

[MrEh]

Lasers are ALWAYS matchup altering.

Pew pew!


No offense to some of the people posting, but if you don't know what you're talking about, then don't say anything.

 

[adumbrodeus]

his blaster takes time to put away. If we're close enough... he can't pull a blaster out or we can reach him before he can put the blaster away. Sure he can keep backing up, but he'll reach the edge of the stage eventually. I have no idea how you can suggest otherwise.

Actually, I'd like to correct that slightly (because you say "backing up, I think you get the concept, you obviously can't back up with grounded lasers but you can shdl while backing up, I just wanna elucidate).

It's not that the blaster takes a while (because no half-way compitent fox will use grounded lasers) it's when he short hops and starts lasering you've got the window of the short-hop to punish because it doesn't flinch you. So there's a dead distance because aerial laser takes some time to put away as well (meaning you can't laser then aerial) it just auto-cancels on the ground.


But like Ganondorf users learned the hard way, a short hop distance attack is quite often punishable (and his causes shield-stun), autocanceling something doesn't make it safe. Falco actually has a similar dead zone issue, but his lasers cause flinching, so to a much lesser extent, plus he can approach with them.



Overall, the Zelda users are right here, there are distances where your SHDL is gonna be very punishable and you cannot force Zelda to approach from that distance.

Also, getting out of up-smash is only really useful if you get out while the move is going on because the move ends almost as soon as the hitbox is gone.

 

[sniperworm]

even when he's doing that. if we're close enough, we can hit him as he lands. Fox's lasers are annoying, but they are hardly matchup altering.

I'm aware of Zelda's mediocre range and Fox won't be shooting lasers if you can reach him because that'd be silly. The only move with any chance at all is her dash attack, but that's easy enough to predict because it's her only option...

I never said that the lasers were matchup altering. I was just mentioning that Fox generally will not get punished for shooting them at you.

Actually, I'd like to correct that slightly (because you say "backing up, I think you get the concept, you obviously can't back up with grounded lasers but you can shdl while backing up, I just wanna elucidate).

It's not that the blaster takes a while (because no half-way compitent fox will use grounded lasers) it's when he short hops and starts lasering you've got the window of the short-hop to punish because it doesn't flinch you. So there's a dead distance because aerial laser takes some time to put away as well (meaning you can't laser then aerial) it just auto-cancels on the ground.

But like Ganondorf users learned the hard way, a short hop distance attack is quite often punishable (and his causes shield-stun), autocanceling something doesn't make it safe. Falco actually has a similar dead zone issue, but his lasers cause flinching, so to a much lesser extent, plus he can approach with them.

Nobody said that he'd be running around SH double and triple lasering all the time like an idiot. If he just uses single lasers as he lands you can't actually run in and punish him because he'll see you coming and he can react accordingly.

 

[MrEh]

To put it simply...

Lasers > Zelda


This is not an opinion. This is a fact. Zelda is slow, and if Fox decides to run away and camp, she's going to have a hard time punishing it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

To put it simply...

Lasers > Zelda


This is not an opinion. This is a fact. Zelda is slow, and if Fox decides to run away and camp, she's going to have a hard time punishing it.

it's not a fact. it's a fallacy. Fox's lasers are annoying, yes, but if he decided to run around shooting lasers all day, he's going to get his *** handed to him because once zelda gets close enough, he's GOING to get punished for a laser and he's GOING to get socked by her power.




And, as Adumbrodeus said earlier, yeah, Zelda's Usmash doesn't really have punishable cooldown lag.

 

[sniperworm]

it's not a fact. it's a fallacy. Fox's lasers are annoying, yes, but if he decided to run around shooting lasers all day, he's going to get his *** handed to him because once zelda gets close enough, he's GOING to get punished for a laser and he's GOING to get socked by her power.

I maintain that this won't happen because Fox won't use lasers from that distance. That's like saying that we'll use Din's when someone is standing right next to us...

And, as Adumbrodeus said earlier, yeah, Zelda's Usmash doesn't really have punishable cooldown lag.

Our very own frame data says that Usmash's cooldown is frames 32-56 (IASA on frame 57). That seems punishable to me, but maybe I'm wrong here.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I maintain that this won't happen because Fox won't use lasers from that distance. That's like saying that we'll use Din's when someone is standing right next to us...

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing MrEh's assertion that fox can spam lasers all day and zelda can do nothing. And also I'm disputing the assertion that he's unpunishable at any distance. That's not true. If zelda gets close enough, he CAN'T safely use lasers and there's NOTHING he can do about it. Yes he can camp from a distance.... nobody ever claimed that that was punishable.

It's so OBVIOUSLY false that it shouldn't bear mentioning, but he's persistent.

Our very own frame data says that Usmash's cooldown is frames 32-56 (IASA on frame 57). That seems punishable to me, but maybe I'm wrong here.

I don't have numbers or anything, so I'll leave someone else to this. But, even if those numbers are true, it's not like the window is REALLY that big. You have to account for hitstun you'll have AND the time it would take you to close your distance from above her (a distance that is, bare minimum, outside of the final hit's hitbox.)

 

[adumbrodeus]

Nobody said that he'd be running around SH double and triple lasering all the time like an idiot. If he just uses single lasers as he lands you can't actually run in and punish him because he'll see you coming and he can react accordingly.

I assumed that you'd choose that because it's pointless to do otherwise, because of zelda's superior priority an empty short-hop is just as vulnerable because Zelda can just beat through your hitbox if you choose to sub in an aerial when she goes in. If you airdodge you better time it REALLY well.


Seriously, from that range, stay on the ground and fight for spacing and bait a response, in this case the ground affords you a lot more options, and in that range, shorthops (whether lasering or not) are punishable.

Our very own frame data says that Usmash's cooldown is frames 32-56 (IASA on frame 57). That seems punishable to me, but maybe I'm wrong here.

Which is great if you start on the ground. Starting in the air, 24 frames isn't much at all. Make it wiff on the ground and you're good.

 

[MrEh]

*pew pew pew*

Zelda loses.


You "we won't be camped" guys are arguing about fairly stupid points. You guys should be trying to figure out a way to get around Fox's camping.

Oh wait! You're Zelda! You can't get around camping!

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Kataefi]

Okay so let's have a scenario:

If the Fox camps to the best of his abilities... exactly what would you do personally as part as your approach? This is assuming he'll hit and run, considering Fox is 3rd fastest and Zelda joint 2nd slowest.

Let's come up with some decent strategies to counter Fox's camp game. What would we do on a stock lead also?

I understand debate is necessary, but we mustn't forget that Zelda's biggest problem is camping in general. So from the start of the match exactly what strategy will you use to get close to him?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Okay so let's have a scenario:

If the Fox camps to the best of his abilities... exactly what would you do personally as part as your approach? This is assuming he'll hit and run, considering Fox is 3rd fastest and Zelda joint 2nd slowest.

Let's come up with some decent strategies to counter Fox's camp game. What would we do on a stock lead also?

I understand debate is necessary, but we mustn't forget that Zelda's biggest problem is camping in general. So from the start of the match exactly what strategy will you use to get close to him?

Walk?

Granted you'll take some damage, but without the ability to cause flinching there is literally nothing stopping you from just walking forward getting into a distance where Fox cannot safely laser. Rolling part of the way avoids part of the damage. He can't back up forever and Zelda does horrible horrible things to characters above her.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Walk?

Granted you'll take some damage, but without the ability to cause flinching there is literally nothing stopping you from just walking forward getting into a distance where Fox cannot safely laser. Rolling part of the way avoids part of the damage. He can't back up forever and Zelda does horrible horrible things to characters above her.

especially when those characters are fast fallers.

but, yeah, just run at him. Once we cross the range where fox can't safely hop or blast us, we have the spacing advantage in pretty much every way.

Now if we have a stock advantage, I'd be pretty content to just stay in that zone and wait for fox to try something.... anything. If not, I'd edge carefully forward into range of our melee attacks and try to find an opening/make an opening.... with exactly what attack depends on the specific situation.



Mr. Eh....... your argument is fail. Please stop trolling because, in this case, you don't really have a leg to stand on, you're just annoying.

 

[KayLo!]

Mr. Eh....... your argument is fail. Please stop trolling because, in this case, you don't really have a leg to stand on, you're just annoying.

I beg to differ. Fox can definitely camp Zelda.

Hedge, the thing you're failing to realize is.... yeah, Zelda can run in through the lasers and get into Fox's space. Good job. HOWEVER:

A) You've probably eaten a fair bit of damage by this point, especially since Zelda's madd slow, so she takes a while to get there.

B) Zelda is strong. Most of her moves, especially the one's you'll be using to space Fox, knock people out of followup range, so Fox can just run away and start camping again. He's so much faster than Zelda, it's not even funny. You hit him with an fsmash or a usmash or whatever, hooray..... now he's back across the stage pelting you with more lasers, and you have to figure out how to approach him all over again.

I'm not saying anything about the matchup in general based off of this camping issue, but you're being a little ridiculous and, frankly, stupid by not accepting the fact that she does get camped.

Also, I did the frame data for usmash. It's correct, tyvm.

 

[Darkmusician]

I beg to differ. Fox can definitely camp Zelda.

Hedge, the thing you're failing to realize is.... yeah, Zelda can run in through the lasers and get into Fox's space. Good job. HOWEVER:

A) You've probably eaten a fair bit of damage by this point, especially since Zelda's madd slow, so she takes a while to get there.

B) Zelda is strong. Most of her moves, especially the one's you'll be using to space Fox, knock people out of followup range, so Fox can just run away and start camping again. He's so much faster than Zelda, it's not even funny. You hit him with an fsmash or a usmash or whatever, hooray..... now he's back across the stage pelting you with more lasers, and you have to figure out how to approach him all over again.

I'm not saying anything about the matchup in general based off of this camping issue, but you're being a little ridiculous and, frankly, stupid by not accepting the fact that she does get camped.

Also, I did the frame data for usmash. It's correct, tyvm.

I couldn't have said that better myself.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

A) You've probably eaten a fair bit of damage by this point, especially since Zelda's madd slow, so she takes a while to get there.

the lasers aren't wildly damaging. They are fast, but as long as zelda gets right to closing the distance, she probably won't be hit by more than a few.

B) Zelda is strong. Most of her moves, especially the one's you'll be using to space Fox, knock people out of followup range, so Fox can just run away and start camping again. He's so much faster than Zelda, it's not even funny. You hit him with an fsmash or a usmash or whatever, hooray..... now he's back across the stage pelting you with more lasers, and you have to figure out how to approach him all over again.

Zelda DOES have the ability to follow up, you know... Sure she COULD stand in place while fox regains his ground legs, but that;s silly. When anything outcamps zelda, it's normally smart for her to stick to it like glue anyway.

 

[KayLo!]

the lasers aren't wildly damaging. They are fast, but as long as zelda gets right to closing the distance, she probably won't be hit by more than a few.

Zelda DOES have the ability to follow up, you know... Sure she COULD stand in place while fox regains his ground legs, but that;s silly. When anything outcamps zelda, it's normally smart for her to stick to it like glue anyway.

......

You're funny. After reading back a few posts and seeing how you argue, I'm not even going to bother.

Have fun, guys.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Dealing with camping like you would if you play as Peach against campy space animals and Snake.

Plank and edge-grab.

Sure, it sucks and it's a crappy way to pull out a win, but honestly, no one has to deal with a campy character if they don't have too (And I feel bad to people who think they can overcome camping as if it was simple). Ledgecamping and Planking is an excellent method to get rid of a campy space animal, especially against Fox since he doesn't have many or very good options to counter planking.

Honestly, I'm not very scared of Fox lasers anyway, (It's definitely not Falco or Wolf's lasers, so out of the lesser of evils, I'll take Fox's lasers any day) because a grounded laser is punishable. And Fox can't consistently fire lasers while in the air at the same horizontal plane for that many shots (Unless he's jumping constantly, which in turn, is also punishable). I think he can probably get Zelda three times per jump, so at the most that's about 4-5% (Though even that may be pushing the percents).

In the end, anyone can alway resort to planking tactics. So yeah.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

......

You're funny. After reading back a few posts and seeing how you argue, I'm not even going to bother.

Have fun, guys.

listen, I'm not saying foxes lasers cannot camp zelda. but I'm saying that, while that tool is useful, it does not break zelda in the ways that have been suggested. Sure it forces zelda not to camp with Din's... but practically anything can do that.

Fox's blaster simply isn't awesome. The lack of flinching means he can't stop zelda from hitting him if zelda manages to get within a certain range and he decides to blaster anyway.

Yeah, he'll wrack up damage on her if she's outside of that range, but zelda should be aware of this and try her best not to be very far outside of that range.

I suppose you can just say that you think that that's completely wrong and leave, but I fail to see how there's any proof to the contrary.

 

[Darkmusician]

Lasers are always a problem vs a good Fox. It forces Zelda to work her way in and come to him. As SniperWorm said a good Fox will see Zelda's slow approach and react accordingly. She only has so many ways to approach and most of them are very bad.

Approaching may stop the lasers temporarily but that doesn't mean that Fox will get punished. Since the purpose of lasers is to force an approach a good Fox will know that you will approach and will already be ready for you to do so.

Lasers are also a big part of the match up because they should not only be thought of as Fox spamming them from across the level from the start of the match.

Lasers can and will also be used when you try to space with smashes or throw out moves that miss. Lasers can be used to hit you as you recover on stage. (assuming that you DIed above parallel with the level) Or if you get hit in the air and come down he can throw in some lasers too. Spammed lasers are not a problem, but well spaced and well timed lasers added on here and there will add up and due to their lack of stun it is hard to notice most of the time.

 

[Sukai]

Everyone said what I was going to and more.
Generally, camping doesn't destroy Zelda, but it does pose a threat nonetheless.

 

[MrEh]

Mr. Eh....... your argument is fail. Please stop trolling because, in this case, you don't really have a leg to stand on, you're just annoying.

On the contrary, I haven't been arguing at all. I've been trolling. Unfortunately, the content in my trolling actually holds more water then your entire argument. I would accept your argument if it was correct, but it isn't. It's plagued with scrubbery and it gives me the impression that you've never been to tournaments (at least not regularly) and you have never played a campy Fox. In my single line posts, I've said more truth then your entire walls of text. SniperWorm, KayLo!, and DM went more in depth and know what they're talking about. You can dismiss their arguments if you want, but if you can't prove that you know what you're talking about...you can't expect people to care. And if you want me to prove that I know what I'm talking about, I don't have to. I'm pretty sure I've proved myself to every competent Zelda main here. And if a couple of the crappier players think I'm a hindrance, I really don't care. Go ahead and think what you want, have fun. ^^


If your argument was a person, it would look like this:

If my trolling was a person, it would look like this:

And yeah, what SniperWorm, KayLo!, and DM said is correct. Zelda gets camped hard. What can she do about it? She approaches. However, her approach options are piss poor and puts her in good positions to be punished. Saying she won't be punished is stupid. Zelda's moves are easily telegraphed and have noticeable cooldown. Fox is hella fast and can close the gap in an instant, and punish accordingly.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Dealing with camping like you would if you play as Peach against campy space animals and Snake.

Plank and edge-grab.

problem is Zeldas not Peach XD
she couldn't plank if her kingdom depended on it.......

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

... you have never played a campy Fox....

I suppose that much is true. I haven't played a campy fox in a while.

And yeah, what SniperWorm, KayLo!, and DM said is correct. Zelda gets camped hard. What can she do about it? She approaches. However, her approach options are piss poor and puts her in good positions to be punished. Saying she won't be punished is stupid. Zelda's moves are easily telegraphed and have noticeable cooldown. Fox is hella fast and can close the gap in an instant, and punish accordingly.

Like I said, yeah it forces zelda to get close, but unless she gets wreckless, this should be no problem. Fox forces zelda to get close, but he doesn't force her to come ALL the way to him, so zelda isn't forced to do something stupid and get punished for it.

Basically fox's lasers result in extra damage whenever fox finds himself distant or otherwise safe, and results in forcing zelda in not being able to camp in any way, but I don't see the problem as being that huge. It's just some bonus help wracking up damage for fox.

problem is Zeldas not Peach XD
she couldn't plank if her kingdom depended on it.......

well I suppose. But, then again, how well does she really need to do it if her only purpose is to keep free of lasers. I assume the zelda user would realize her suck at it and stop once she gets fox to approach.

 

[KayLo!]

I suppose that much is true. I haven't played a campy fox in a while.

Then just stop. That's really all you need to say.

Like I said, yeah it forces zelda to get close, but unless she gets wreckless, this should be no problem. Fox forces zelda to get close, but he doesn't force her to come ALL the way to him, so zelda isn't forced to do something stupid and get punished for it.

Basically fox's lasers result in extra damage whenever fox finds himself distant or otherwise safe, and results in forcing zelda in not being able to camp in any way, but I don't see the problem as being that huge. It's just some bonus help wracking up damage for fox.

Re-read DM's post, please.

Extra damage whenever Fox finds himself distant or otherwise safe..... THAT WILL HAPPEN OFTEN, especially considering that Fox has an easy time playing keep-away with Zelda since she's so slow and carries so much knockback on her moves.

One laser isn't going to give you much damage, but he's going to sprinkle them in throughout the matchup, and if you knock him across the stage (which will happen very often because Zelda's moves are strong, like I've said fifty million times), you're going to eat more laser every time you're forced to approach him.

Because you are forced to approach him. Because he can camp you. Which makes a VERY LARGE difference in the matchup, and if you think otherwise (because you flat-out said his lasers aren't that amazing or matchup-altering, so don't lie and change your argument now like you have in the past), you're not very intelligent.

well I suppose. But, then again, how well does she really need to do it if her only purpose is to keep free of lasers. I assume the zelda user would realize her suck at it and stop once she gets fox to approach.

First of all, you'll need the lead for this to work, as I've already said. If Fox has the lead, he'll just stand on the other side of the stage and wait, and then you'll be blatantly stalling the match. Then when you get up, he'll start shooting lasers again.

Second of all, exactly what amazing options does Zelda have off the ledge? Fox can space himself to punish just about anything Zelda can do off the ledge (normal get-up, get-up attack, rolling, Naryu's, lolledgehopped aerials......), because she doesn't have very good options from it. And you can't plank forever even if you do have the lead because you'll get DQ'd.

People who actually go to tournaments know these things.

This tactic will only work if you're winning and there's like.... less than a minute left, or if your tournament doesn't ban planking, which most do iirc.

Moving on to the real problem with your argument: you say she can just "stop once she gets Fox to approach." Stop and do what?! This is where your posts fail in logic.... you make general comments but don't post details to back up what you're saying.

I'd also like to hear what you think Zelda can do once she's forced to approach Fox when he's camping. As others have said, Zelda has poor approaches. Being forced to approach puts her in a very bad position, especially since a) you're running to get there ASAP (to reduce laser hits) and b) Fox knows he's making you approach, meaning he's got a plan for you. You're not gonna surprise him with much considering Zelda's limited options and laggy attacks.

So, let's hear your plan.

(Also, on an older point: Zelda does not have a followup to any of her attacks except at very low percentages. They all have far too much knockback/cooldown, so with proper DI, the opponent can escape. Exceptions can be dtilt, jab, hitting with only a few hits of nair, sourspotted kicks, and dthrow, but none of these are guaranteed, and most are actually quite escapable unless the opponent has bad DI or you catch them in a dtilt lock. Furthermore, none of these are what I'd call fabulous approaches, so your argument is still fail. The end.)

 

[MrEh]

Then just stop. That's really all you need to say.

This.


KayLo! wins this topic. She gets three Super Machomans.

But seriously, planking is such a useless option for Zelda. Her recovery is terrible and isn't good for camping the ledge at all. If you plank with Zelda, you are a fool. That's because you are willingly putting Zelda in the worst position she can possibly be: offstage.

Plus, you'll probably be called for planking anyway. If your region doesn't have rules about planking, you're still putting yourself in a bad position. Even if you avoid the lasers, you're putting yourself in a fine position to be edgeguarded since Zelda has no good options for returning to the stage. Zelda offstage is a big no no. I don't even use Zelda and I know this. It shocks me that people who do use her consider planking an option.

 

[Darkmusician]

Anyone that resorts to full on ledge planking with Zelda for the sole purpose of stalling the game or avoiding damage should just quit her because there are other characters that will achieve this goal with ease.

 

[RoyalBlood]

You could just hang on the ledge if you have a lead, wait for him to stop and approach because he will, then jump-->air dodge-->shield--->reduce distance :D

Jump and then teleport & trick him into moving or if he won't shoot on the ground, crouch, then about 1 laser for 1% damage will hit you, you can even d-tilt to reduce height even more: problem solved.

In which you may say that he will revert back to ground so you can use Nayru's Love but if you say that Zelda would get punished because Fox will get there then Zelda should be fairly close to Fox so she wouldn't be using Nayru's Love, she would be using run--->shield--->run--->spotdodge-->etc. to diminish
distance & then finally get to Fox.

PS:: Phantasm has cool down & should be easily stopped by a well-timed jab :D

 

[KayLo!]

You could just hang on the ledge if you have a lead, wait for him to stop and approach because he will, then jump-->air dodge-->shield--->reduce distance :D

He'll punish your airdodge/shield with a grab. Or just punish your landing lag with an attack, but a grab is more likely as you hit the ground, and Fox is wtfsomuchfaster than you. He'll have no problem getting in fast enough.

Even if you do successfully get to the ground and not grabbed, how're you going to reduce distance and approach him?

If he's really lame, he could just run away again.

It's an option, but it's not a very good one. Certainly not valid enough to purposely try to plank/ledgestall.

Jump and then teleport & trick him into moving or if he won't shoot on the ground, crouch, then about 1 laser for 1% damage will hit you, you can even d-tilt to reduce height even more: problem solved.

Uh, no, problem not solved. You guys keep forgetting that FW has half a second of lag at the beginning and the end of it. It's so easy to punish, especially with fast characters like Fox.

It may work once in a blue moon, but again, it's not a legit planking strategy.

In which you may say that he will revert back to ground so you can use Nayru's Love but if you say that Zelda would get punished because Fox will get there then Zelda should be fairly close to Fox so she wouldn't be using Nayru's Love, she would be using run--->shield--->run--->spotdodge-->etc. to diminish
distance & then finally get to Fox.

Naryu's isn't fast enough for lasers at any distance. Have you seen how fast they are and how much non-reflecting cooldown is on NL?

As for closing distance through laser camp, stopping to shield/spotdodge isn't a good idea until you're close enough to punish his reaction to your approach. The pew pew is too fast.

(I'd love to see someone run > powershield > run > powershield successfully through Fox's blaster spam, though..... that'd be hilarious. )

EDIT: MrEh, thank you for my three Super Machomans. I will cherish them always. ;-;

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This.

And the last time you played against a campy fox with zelda was........

 

[Brinzy]

Actually, I think the right idea has been posted quite a few times.

Let's quit Zelda.

 

[KayLo!]

And the last time you played against a campy fox with zelda was........

And the last time you posted something worthwhile was.....

MrEh is a huge troll, but he's posted more valid, intelligent content than you ever have here. I hate to be the bearer of bad news (or a *****, whichever you prefer to call it), but that is the truth. It's sad that I know this, and I haven't even been posting in this particular character forum for very long.

Actually, I think the right idea has been posted quite a few times.

Let's quit Zelda.

Hehe. Realistically, I wouldn't ever play this matchup because of my main, so I can't really argue that. But. Zelda's still so fun, I couldn't ever quit her for reals....

 

[Kataefi]

Before we continue, please read the rules of this thread. If one is to make a claim, one can expect that claim to be refuted if there are mistakes. This is the nature of threads like these. If you say something wrong, you're going to be challenged to explain the reasoning behind your sayings by a variety of posters, some of which having good tournament experiences with Zelda.

From now on I will say that if you do want to make a point, make sure this point is backed up with strong proofs... They CANNOT be wild claims from a casual personal experience or merely a case of common sense. Explain how someone can bait someone as opposed to saying 'we'll s/he baits and can win'. If someone camps, take into account extreme camping, what if we hit fox's shield? Will he grab us? Smash us? Spotdodge? Phantasm away? There are so many options here we must consider and be prepared for. What if we don't hit his shield, but are close? What will he do? How will he react? etc etc...

I don't want bickering in this thread from anybody. Let's get back to some good discussion please. If this tennis match mentality of 'I'm Right, no I'M Right' continues then I will lock this thread temporarily.

But in the meantime I have a few questions:

- Aside from USmash what are Fox's most reliable kill moves?
- Is it possible to chase Fox well in the air providing his horizontal air speed is not all good?
- Regarding lasers... what is the minimum damage they do at their stalest?

EDIT:: And this is addressed to everyone btw!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Hehe. Realistically, I wouldn't ever play this matchup because of my main, so I can't really argue that. But. Zelda's still so fun, I couldn't ever quit her for reals....

along those lines, no Zelda main should either since pressing Down+B is so effective. Zelda is capable of killing an agressive fox with ZERO problems, but, honestly, once he gets campy, there's NO reason not to transform into sheik.

 

[sniperworm]

- Aside from USmash what are Fox's most reliable kill moves?

All of Fox's smashes kill and are relatively quick. They all come paired with some afterlag though. Fox's Bair also has good knockback and his Uair could kill if you're high enough.

- Is it possible to chase Fox well in the air providing his horizontal air speed is not all good?

It is possible to attempt to chase him down, but he has a lot of things that can change his momentum and make it tough to actually hit him (considering Zelda has such precise aerials). While his aerial drift speed might not be that fast, you need to remember that he falls really fast, he can Fair and jump to gain significant float time and distance, can stall with DownB, and can escape horizontally with sideB (which can be cancelled to modify distance traveled).

- Regarding lasers... what is the minimum damage they do at their stalest?

EDIT:: And this is addressed to everyone btw!

I would imagine that they do less than 1% at long range and maximum staleness. I'm not really sure why this is relevant though.

 

[KayLo!]

- Aside from USmash what are Fox's most reliable kill moves?

Dsmash & uair, usually. Bair can kill off-stage. Fsmash can kill, but it's hella easy to see coming.

(I realize sniperworm answered already, but I'd already written this and was too lazy to delete it, lol.)

- Regarding lasers... what is the minimum damage they do at their stalest?

1%. I checked the Fox guide to confirm this, and they say that lasers decay like this: 3 2 3 2 2 2 1 2 1 2 1.

Also remember that lasers refresh Fox's other moves, so keeping his KO moves fresh is pretty easy for him, especially on attackable stages. ><

 

[Darkmusician]

Lasers deal about 1-2 percent when staled. They add up though.

Following fox in the air is difficult because he falls so fast and can delay his fall if he wants to. It all depends on where you are in relation to fox in the air and also it make take a few tries to get an idea of your opponents tendencies.

His other smashes aren't as bad but you have to be ready to DI them. Can't get careless against them. The bair makes a decent kill move but harder to land and easier to avoid and again if you're ready to DI it is survivable. Moves to watch for is the dair cause it leads into things that can kill you.

Grab releasing fox at the edge of the stage is good because of his falling speed.

 

[sniperworm]

Actually, I think the right idea has been posted quite a few times.

Let's quit Zelda.

Here's a link to the MK boards, lol.

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=147

Dsmash & uair, usually. Bair can kill off-stage. Fsmash can kill, but it's hella easy to see coming.

(I realize sniperworm answered already, but I'd already written this and was too lazy to delete it, lol.)

It never hurts for someone to confirm something that someone else said.

1%. I checked the Fox guide to confirm this, and they say that lasers decay like this: 3 2 3 2 2 2 1 2 1 2 1.

Also remember that lasers refresh Fox's other moves, so keeping his KO moves fresh is pretty easy for him, especially on attackable stages. ><

Are these close range or long range lasers? The 3's make me think these are from close range (I remember reading somewhere that Fox's lasers do less damage at long range).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Fox's Dsmash and Fsmash don't have near the kick that his Usmash does, and Fsmash is pretty avoidable most of the time. It's really almost exclusively his Usmash that he'll be killing with, though Uair is good to kill us if we aren't careful to avoid it.

Keep in mind though, Zelda is lightweight and, with lasers, we'll get damaged pretty quick, so anything can become a kill move.